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Thread: Video killed the radio star

  1. #1

    Video killed the radio star

    Ok...so we know that modern cars ridiculously easy to tune. What do we do about it? How do we go about ensuring drivers are actually in a fair dogfight? Personally, I feel the very fabric of amateur racing is at stake and I know people much much smarter than I in this very group can come up with ideas and suggestions for NASA on this issue. So...thoughts?
    Al Fernandez

  2. #2
    Senior Member Carroll Shelby
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    For CMC it's easy, NASA keeps in inventory factory tune LT1, TPI, LS1, and 5.0 ECUs that will run any legal CMC car on grid. We're talking about maybe $1k in investment MAX.

    The hard part is the 4.6 ECU since the allowance for tuning out emissions allows for removal of certain sensors/wires which would cause a stock tune ECM to not run right (Kevin can clarify), so maybe buy two and tune out emissions on one?

    Once you have the ability to completely change the ECU, at that point you are inspecting for physical defeats like wiring anomalies and disconnected or fake resistor sensors.

    Bryan and I have had this discussion, and it remains to be determined if the factory knock strategy on LS1s and possibly even LT1s are holding us back vs the 5.0 cars. We can dyno all we want and produce the right number, but rattling around on track there's no telling if we are getting knock and pull back on timing unless once one of us starts collecting some real data off the OBD. I know the street/tuner route is to tune out the knock sensors entirely.

    For AI, no clue, yet another reason why I won't jump in that $$$ box anytime soon. Once you have an ECU that can detect wheel speed you can go full volkswagen if you want.

  3. #3
    Easy, convert all the cars to electric and issue batteries at the race.

    - Josh
    CMC #50

  4. #4
    Senior Member Grass-Passer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pranav View Post
    For CMC it's easy, NASA keeps in inventory factory tune LT1, TPI, LS1, and 5.0 ECUs that will run any legal CMC car on grid. We're talking about maybe $1k in investment MAX.

    The hard part is the 4.6 ECU since the allowance for tuning out emissions allows for removal of certain sensors/wires which would cause a stock tune ECM to not run right (Kevin can clarify), so maybe buy two and tune out emissions on one?

    Once you have the ability to completely change the ECU, at that point you are inspecting for physical defeats like wiring anomalies and disconnected or fake resistor sensors.

    Bryan and I have had this discussion, and it remains to be determined if the factory knock strategy on LS1s and possibly even LT1s are holding us back vs the 5.0 cars. We can dyno all we want and produce the right number, but rattling around on track there's no telling if we are getting knock and pull back on timing unless once one of us starts collecting some real data off the OBD. I know the street/tuner route is to tune out the knock sensors entirely.

    For AI, no clue, yet another reason why I won't jump in that $$$ box anytime soon. Once you have an ECU that can detect wheel speed you can go full volkswagen if you want.
    For a 4.6 the PATS stuff would have to be tuned out since the ECU is tied to the car. You also need an ECU for a 96-97, 98, and 99+, as they are all different.

  5. #5

    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by Pranav View Post
    For CMC it's easy, NASA keeps in inventory factory tune LT1, TPI, LS1, and 5.0 ECUs that will run any legal CMC car on grid. We're talking about maybe $1k in investment MAX.

    The hard part is the 4.6 ECU since the allowance for tuning out emissions allows for removal of certain sensors/wires which would cause a stock tune ECM to not run right (Kevin can clarify), so maybe buy two and tune out emissions on one?

    Once you have the ability to completely change the ECU, at that point you are inspecting for physical defeats like wiring anomalies and disconnected or fake resistor sensors.

    Bryan and I have had this discussion, and it remains to be determined if the factory knock strategy on LS1s and possibly even LT1s are holding us back vs the 5.0 cars. We can dyno all we want and produce the right number, but rattling around on track there's no telling if we are getting knock and pull back on timing unless once one of us starts collecting some real data off the OBD. I know the street/tuner route is to tune out the knock sensors entirely.

    For AI, no clue, yet another reason why I won't jump in that $$$ box anytime soon. Once you have an ECU that can detect wheel speed you can go full volkswagen if you want.
    Not sure it’s that simple. The stock tune for ‘99 ls1 is different than for a ‘02 for example. You’d have to have tunes that worked for every year engine and any legal combination of parts and sensors. Then you’d have to verify that no sensors have been jacked with.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Carroll Shelby ShadowBolt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Fernandez View Post
    Ok...so we know that modern cars ridiculously easy to tune. What do we do about it? How do we go about ensuring drivers are actually in a fair dogfight? Personally, I feel the very fabric of amateur racing is at stake and I know people much much smarter than I in this very group can come up with ideas and suggestions for NASA on this issue. So...thoughts?
    Al,

    Did you see something in CMC at nationals that makes you think we have an issue in CMC? Maybe more random hood/OBD port sealing would provide the answer but I don't see that anyone in CMC in our area that looks to have more power than the next guy. At COTA two years ago before my engine went down on power BL (the 24) and I went lap after lap down the long straight with my car only making 246/292 and BL making very close to the CMC numbers (I can't remember exactly) and until I had to shift into fifth we were almost dead even. I personally do not believe anyone in our group is winning or out running the 55 because they are making more than 260/310. We get beat by better drivers that spend more time at the track and on the car than we do. I understand the AI issue from last weekend and if someone want to cheat they will find a way. What am I missing? Are there CMC guys thinking they are getting beat by cars with over the limit power? Maybe random dyno pulls and if a guy bust the numbers he is gone for the season?

    Jerry

  7. #7
    Senior Member Carroll Shelby RichardP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Fernandez View Post
    Ok...so we know that modern cars ridiculously easy to tune.

    It's a bit frustrating when this is listed as an issue because of modern technology. There have always been workarounds. I gave a list of potential cheats I came up with for each platform and the ways to catch them to the directors way back when (Todd and Adam in charge). I never saw anyone check anything, even when we did do periodic dyno checks which we almost never do anymore.


    An example of old school for pushrod 5.0: Set up the engine so it makes legal hp with the spout connector out. It will make enough more power with it in that you will have a real advantage but not enough that it would be hugely obvious. Removing the spout connector just breaks a wire. Just break that wire somewhere else with a switch (tied into your helmet blower or something else not obvious). Trivial to find this cheat if you use a timing light. Really hard, if you don't...


    Richard P.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Carroll Shelby
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    Al-can you grab me a bud light while Craig and John get the fire ready?

    Wish I could have been next to Patterson when he heard of the engine mapping switch.

    I know guys with the 4.6 and LS1 run different size injectors but don't believe it's an issue with the LS at our power levels.

    What is different in the tune between 99 and 02 for the LS? Yes, the 98 is different as it runs a totally different computer.

    You could require everyone send their computer to one tuner to have the tune checked and locked possibly? Could limit being able to run a "tuned" computer but people could still try and fool the computer by using wiring/diodes to make it see something different.
    Bryan Leinart
    CMC #24

  9. #9
    Senior Member Carroll Shelby Fbody383's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sook View Post
    Easy, put all the PCM's in a box and issue at the race.
    We have a pile of 94-94, and 96-97 PCMs. Our plan is to stay LT1 and OBD1. I plan to pick up TunerCat relatively soon so we can address our own legal changes - VATS, EGR, AUTO vs. Manual, etc.
    #39 CMC Camaro
    Orange is Fast!
    CMC-NT01 FTW!

  10. #10
    Senior Member Carroll Shelby Supercharged111's Avatar
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    We as regional directors would require a plethora of gear to track this sort of thing. I could police the OBDII GM stuff with what I have for my personal vehicles, but that's it. I don't have a good all-encompassing answer here, and the answer isn't as simple as just opening up full tuning on the computers, because you can still employ cheater tactics to alter fuel or timing on the fly. Just be glad we're all on cable throttle motors, the level that you can cheat with throttle by wire is downright evil.
    RM CMC Director

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