MSR-H Turn 17

[MCain]

From Al Mitchell:

... All tracks have corners that have limited room on exit i.e. TWS, TMS, Mid-Ohio, etc, fortunately we just have one. ...

Sincerely,

Al Mitchell"[/i]

I can only think of two at TWS that are remotely limited, T9 and T15. Wall impacts after T15 are pretty uncommon, and supposedly the tire wall at the exit of T9 is going to be moved back because ...da da dum... people were hitting it.

[Racebrat]

Hey Guys-

I have been reading this thread and have been having some of the same thoughts as y'all. The next SCCA event there is the Double National Feb 16-18. I'll try to get down there and report back on this particular topic after the weekend but if I don't make it I will definately give some drivers a call that I know will be there and get their views.

Don't forget that in addition to all the melee in turn 17 this past weekend, a SM flipped there after hitting that tire wall at our race in October.

I'm on board and agree with y'all 100% and will do whatever I can to help find a solution.

A

[marshall_mosty]

I'll be the first to say that I won't go back to MSR-H until they move the wall... and I'm not going to budge on that statement! :!:

[jeffburch]

SCCA is a part owner now.

Also, CART has an open practice soon.
The week prior to the GP in H.
Is it CART or OWRS?

jb

[Todd Covini]

Here are my notes on the subject:
1) First & Foremost...we should be able to drive whatever track that we're provided with. (See my Charles Darwin quote on adapting to change.)

Now...with that said, here are my other comments:
2) NASA TX is aware and Al and I had an extensive conversation with Jay & Shannon regarding the collective concerns of AI/CMC/GPC at the close of the weekend.

3) I almost smacked the wall on Saturday morning when I first went out because there really was no mention of the change and I planned to navigate that turn like I normally have the dozen times I've been there before. (I also had to adapt to the T1 changes with the more restrictive entrance.)

4) Having the tire wall there is akin to a street course. There are courses in road racing where every turn is like T17....track and K-wall. Let's not paint ourselves into a corner stating that we'll never run that type of a configuration.

5) Entry level pro-racing/club-racing and especially HPDE really could use a little more safety margin. Street course setups aren't for the faint of heart.

6) Lastly....I really think RP hit the nail on the head. Anyone can easily ignore all my points above but the root cause of the issue really lies with 1) the mud/sediment at the apex...and 2) the subsequent water from the infield runoff and water stored in those tires.

As the weekend went on, the conditions in that turn deteriorated. It was manageable on Saturday morning...but as soon as someone went off it made the turn tricky....then, as soon as the 1st person hit the tires...the turn was wet AND dirty...making it REALLY tricky.

Combine the (now) dirty track...with the wet track....with the closer tire wall and [presto chango] we've got a chain of errors. In and of themselves, each condition is not that much of a problem because the "chain is broken". But put all those things together...and we all have a problem.

In order to break the error chain, one or more of these things needs to happen:
1) We as racers have to take responsibility for running off track (creating debris) Let's face it, they're making changes to the track in order to scrub speed and prevent us from running off track.
2) The track needs to take responsibility for preventing the water on track. (infield ground runoff and/or water from tires)
3) Move the tires back and provide more margin for error if neither #1 or #2 aren't going to happen.

Let's face it...there's no problem with a clean T17 the way it sits now if everyone stays on track, there isn't any water/debris there and no-one hits the tires, right? :wink: :lol:

Break the chain....break the chain...break the chain.
<>

Just my opinion...posted as a racer, not a director.

-=- Todd

[GlennCMC70]

i'm really glad to see we all agree on this 100% and we are having a nice open dialog on this.
there needs to be lots of holes drilled or cuts made into those tires to stop them from holding water. this should be done prior to making a tire wall out of them.

sorry for the mud i drug on the track. i guess if i was going into that corner @ 10/10ths, i too would have hit the wall. how about they just pave that whole area w/ the mud over.

[michaelmosty]

Here are my notes on the subject:
1) First & Foremost...we should be able to drive whatever track that we're provided with. (See my Charles Darwin quote on adapting to change.)

Todd,
I understand your point but why not make a track safer for everyone.
How many incidents did we have last year at MSR-H w/ the wall at T-17? None that I can think of. Now after they change the placement we have three people that hit the wall just in our group alone.

People hit wall = BAD, no people hit wall = GOOD
If the ability is there to make a change, why not do it?? I know I'm new to the game but this seems like a no-brainer to me.

[Waco Racer]

There was a Spec Miata that flipped in the tire wall at the October event, as well as, other people that hit it in the other events. The driver of the SM is a very experienced driver, so it happens to the best of us(?). I track out right next to the wall and never had a problem until the surface condition changed. Only once did it get too close for comfort. The wall was moved to allow for more pit spaces at the SCCA enduro last year. Track surface condition is the real problem with that part of the track. If you happened to notice, the tire bundles on grid had slits and water in them. I would rather have the wall extended around to help separate pit lane than have the wall moved back. However, both would be nice.

[mitchntx]

Let me wade in here ...

After experiencing what 2 wheels off debris from a leading car would do to me entering 16 and the subsequent spin down pit road (see 2006 hi-lite reel) I vowed that day that I wouldn't run at Houston ever again. And I won't. It's just too dangerous.

A NASA-Tx season championship just isn't worth wrecking my car or sustaining injury. Marshall/Eric, would you agree or disagree?

With 10 cars in the run group, 3 sustained damage. Imagine 30 cars ...

Seeing the lack of respect the track shows to the paying customer drives the point home.

I think the reasons behind a low car count this weekend are now fairly obvious.

Advertising itself as a "country club" where the well-to-do bring out their toys to play, how can they justify track conditions that risk expensive exotic cars and high roller players?

It sounds like a business model hell bent on disaster.

Todd, I see your points ... honestly I do. But this is a clear cut case of safety for the racers and the crew working the event.

Let's put it in different terms ... If there was a driver on the track that caused 3 accidents would we collectively shrug our shoulders and say, "It's racing?" Would the track say something to Shannon about it?

Why is it "shut up and race" when the racers see the facility creating a hazard?

James, I was with Gossage and even have one of those shirts. But I see things a little differently now.

[Rob Liebbe]

i'm really glad to see we all agree on this 100% and we are having a nice open dialog on this.

I agree that it is nice to have agreement and a nice dialog, but sometimes a nice open dialog may not get the job done. A more emphatic or down-right mean course of action may be required. The nice letters and note sent so far seem to be falling on deaf ears.

Before they moved the wall - some incidents.

After they moved the wall - a BUNCH of unnecessary incidents.

Seems pretty clear to me.