NASA CCR's and section 27.12

[ShadowBolt]

Matt, you make some good points but you are wrong about Bryan and I. We are not about to quit racing. We also think this is the best group of guys anywhere. We just want clarification about how contact is viewed by our fellow competitors. We are not looking for a certain answer we just want to know if contact is no big deal to most and doing bodywork is normal if you run in this class or if it is to be avoided at all cost? There was nothing more or less to our postings.

So Matt is an Aggie.....this explains everything!

Mitch,

You were spot on with your post except the part about me not being competitive. Jay and I are the most competitive people in the world. Too competitive. We just suck at driving! My wife is scared to death that we will get another car and tear both of them up trying to outrun each other. We get pissed when we lose at a board game.


Jeff's video was great but I wonder how many here with a national title on the line would not have tried a move on Jeff even with the possibility of a crash. I can't tell you in good conscience that I would have done what the second place guy did but I would like to think we all would.


JJ

[mitchntx]

Jay and I are the most competitive people in the world. Too competitive.

Information logged and filed. :wink:

My attitude just pisses Glenn off sometimes because I'm not. I used to be, but just not a high priority at this level.

I'm better because even these "club racers" realized that and knew I would bail out if even a half-hearted attempt to pass was made.

I've adjusted my attitude somewhat ...

[Al Fernandez]

It does seem that everyone has accepted that contact is going to happen to them and contact will happen in every race and is just something everyone has to deal with in their own terms.

You mean contact to someone will happen every race, not you, right? I do agree that if you are going to race wheel to wheel you have to come to terms with the fact that your car will get damaged, but I absolutely disagree that you need to accept that contact is going to happen to you every race.

we just want to know if contact is no big deal to most and doing bodywork is normal

Contact absolutely is a big deal, and the posts here support that thought. Accepting that something will eventually happen in no way indicates that you dont care. It is not ignored in any way, and it brings consequences which I believe are serious. The least anyone in an AI/CMC group I've been in has gotten for at fault contact with damage or loss of position is last place. The most has been losing their license for 1yr. Typical is a DQ, which effectively means your championship is over: lost. By the way, it is also typical to hand the "other" driver a probation for reasons that have already been explained well.

1) In the long term, you will get more damage due to single car incidents than two car incidents. Last weekend was particularly bad re single car offs, but in general the big offs tend to be much worse due to the delta in speed between you and fixed objects than between you and the guy you're passing.

2) You can and should expect to go a long time without doing anything more than polishing your car. Not everyone has the same luck (ask Kimi Raikonnen) so YMMV, but take me as an example. In the last six years of w2w racing I've had four on track contact incidents, two of which resulted in donuts and two resulted in a wrinkled fender. I've also had one off track contact (wall) which resulted in me having to saw the car in half and glue on a new car from the driver seat back. So my numbers are one case of contact every 1.5 yrs that require polish/buff/wax. One case of contact every 3yrs that requires me to repair and paint a body panel. One major incident that requires a new tub every 6 yrs.

3) The raw number of cases of contact per session for a group is irrelevant. You have to take into account number of cars. A group with six cars will have fewer cases of contact than a group of 24. That doesnt mean they have fewer cases per car though, does it? Our group is fielding some decently large numbers, so I expect the number of incidents per race to be more than if we had only a handful of drivers. Given the talent in our field I expect and will act accordingly if the number of cases per driver in our group is not leading the pack for Texas and NASA overall and serving as the example of how to do it right.

[AllZWay]

Matt, you're awesome dude.
Your second calling is motivational speaker.
Were you a cheerleader at TAMU?

jb

You mean those cheerleaders in the janitor uniforms.

[Al Fernandez]

I am curious if the person who makes a low percentage move on someone who doesn't want contact really is the subject of IRB's. Or do they slide by because someone doesn't want to risk being hit or that if contact does occur it is chalked up to a racing incident and par for the course?

As long as the incident is reported to a director, it gets discussed and reviewed, contact/damage/loss of positon or not. You dont need to have had contact to walk up to a driver and tell them you feel the only reason you didnt hit is because you bailed out! If they dont listen or you arent comfortable, that is what your directors are here for, tell us!

It doesnt take long for both of the following to happen: 1) the overly aggressive driver is identified and put on probation and they either chill or the whole thing escalates and 2) they come accross someone who doesnt just eject, contact with damage/loss of position happens and the penalty is really harsh, so they either chill or eventually get run out of town.

I do want to give a disclaimer that I do not think anyone currently running in our group is what I would consider to be a chronic low percentage driver. Everyone is guilty of sticking their nose where it didnt belong once in a while, and there have been a couple of official/driver discussions concerning a given specific move, but that is not the same thing.

[Rsmith350]

So Matt is an Aggie.....this explains everything!

You mean those cheerleaders in the janitor uniforms.

Careful.....I see the formation of team TAMU in the future. What do you think Matt?

WHOOOOOPPP!!!!!

[Rob Liebbe]

I'll put my two cents in....

I try my very best to go as fast as possible without damaging mine or anybody else's car. I also hope and will do everything in my power to prevent injury to myself or anyone else. Safety is priority #1.

That being said, I have learned some of the tricks and/or driving habits of my competitiors and am on the lookout when those drivers are in a position to pull one of those tricks or habits. When that happens I am very careful and alert to their presence and actions and am prepared to take evasive actions if needed to prevent contact, damage, or injury.

I have a LOT of seat time in test vehicles of all types and open track events, and now a fair amount of time in wheel to wheel racing. I was told that WTW would be a lot different than open track, but did not fully appreciate the difference until I started racing. It has taken me three seasons to get to the comfort level in traffic that I have now. I am just now able to balance my concentration between the multiple areas requiring a driver's attention during a race. For those who are new, be patient and the comfort level will come to you. For those who have been around awhile, take the time to learn the new guys' habits before getting too close.

I don't like body contact. Period. Even the slightest contact at an inopportune time can ruin a race, cause serious damage, and even cause serious bodily injury. We have had some close calls and have been VERY lucky to date.

If you look at another series whose initials are Spec Miata, you will see a lot of contact and a lot of beat up or destoyed cars. You will not see a close-knit group of friends who truly enjoy the enitre weekend experience. You will see a group with a reputation for contact and even hear nick-names like "Spec - Pinata". WE DO NOT WANT TO DESERVE THAT SAME REPUTATION. It is within our power as a group to prevent it. You don't have to be wimpy, just cautious and respectful of others around you.

And remember, there are no F1 scouts, huge trophys, large cash prizes, or even trophy girls. This is a hobby level sport where most, if not all, of us are participating for fun.

See you at the track.

[dirwin]

At MSR-C Chris L and I went side by side through Rattle Snake, Wagon Wheel, Horseshoe, Boot Hill and Tombstone, not once, but for 3 straight laps and we changed positions several times. Neither of us consider body contact as "acceptable" and during those 3 laps being side by side through the tightest sections of that track, neither of us put so much as a half a tread on the dirt or rode the curbing. One more thing, neither of us gave an inch. Now, the directors in the tower may have been losing their minds watching the whole thing, but if we did it again today for 15 straight laps I would bet you my car that we wouldn't have contact. The big difference, I have been side by side with him before and I trust Chris as a driver/competitor and I know he is aggressive and while he will not give you an inch or concede the position, he will give you racing room.

Nobody that I know of in our group takes the "rubbin' is racing" approach and every driver I know does everything they can to avoid contact. I haven't ever seen anything close to an old fashion dirt track punt.

Racing is about adrenaline, and what it does to different people is different. Matt is spot on with his point, knowing how it affects different drivers is only learned through the experience of being on the track with them and watching. Some you will drive one way when you are with them, some you will drive another way, just part of the fun of racing.

Avoiding contact is all about being aware. I ran a Spec Miata in SCCA for a while, ran a Factory Five Cobra in SCCA and NASA a lot, have run my 05 in AI since 05, ran it in Nationals in 06 and have had contact 1 time and it was minor. Just imagine, 20+ races in SM and NO contact, it CAN be done. I have had this car in the front, middle and back of the pack, have been side by side with Matt and Chris M, in the rain no less, have been brake bombed by David D more times than I can count and hell, I have even earned the "mantes" once, thanks JB. Trust me, nobody in this group doesn't do everything they can to AVOID contact.

BTW, my being in the back of the pack lately is because I sat out last year (got to pay for this fun somehow) and the damn front of the pack moved.

[BryanL]

Al-I may not have worded that right. I don't think I will have contact every race and wouldn't accept that. I have seen that contact does happen during every race. Now that I have been in 3 race weekends I better understand what happens and that contact is normal.
3) Does anyone keep track of the number of incidents per race? Is there a percentage (based on the size of the field) that is generally acceptable or unacceptable?
Of course I will still have to learn where the line is that is considered aggressive driving.

Rob-I agree that safety should be #1. I have very little seat time (7 events) and certainly understand being patient with my comfort level for not only myself but others. Sure it would be nice if you didn't have to worry about the other person hitting you but like you say you are on the lookout for certain tricks/habits. I also got into this group becuase of the group and the more time I spend at the track the better it gets.

Ross-are you painting your car maroon and getting a matching golf cart? I suggest you nickname your car the "wrecking crew" since the aggies certainly aren't' holding up that nickname.

[marshall_mosty]

[...it is also typical to hand the "other" driver a probation...

Been there, done that, bought the shot glass. 8)