Thunder - 2014 Contact Issues

[AllZWay]

I don't really have much to say about it. Not all but a lot of contact could be avoided with patience from the overtaking car. Everyone has to remember what you are racing for. A vinyl a sticker for the winner and a glass mug for a full year of racing.

I personally would just make the penalties stiffer for contact, especially on inverts and with some increasing scale for patterns of contact. I like the rolling 12 months...but it may actually need to be after a number of races that dictate when points are removed from record.

[JMR81]

hit where it hurts. in the wallet that will stop most of the stuff.

[ShadowBolt]

I used to have a hard time with people cutting the nose off going to the apex in a corner. Al and Mitch did it as bad as anyone until I realized that it is okay to do. It took me awhile to realize that just because I had my nose inside a rear quarter did not mean the other car was going to let me stay there. I'm okay with that and now I do it as much as anyone.

I think we have two problems (one of them I do from time to time). One issue is guys trying to make passes when they don't have a good enough run (I'm guilty of this from time to time) and the other is when a guy fights to long once the pass is a done deal but the passing car has not completely cleared the other car. I know when James and Michael or Dan come up on me from fifty yards in less than half a lap I will not try and block and do everything I can to hold them back (maybe I'm wrong for that). I may do it if it's the last lap but that is the only time. I would rather get behind them and try to learn something from them.

I want to know what to do in the cases like three wide deals like Tyler, John and I had at ECR. I want to know how to avoid having to bail out to keep from being involved in a big wreck. Who's fault would it be? I'm assuming since I was on the inside it was not mine. Glenn told me it would have been Tyler's fault but since he did not even know I was there I don't know that I agree.

I know that Michael, Dan, and James never "divebomb" me to get past and never have trouble getting around me without touching me. I want to be able to pass like these guys do.

I did bump David at TWS and I swear I have no recollection of moving to avoid the wreck I thought was going to happen (between Al and Glenn) but I did it. At ECR I hit David again as he said in turn six. I know I could make the same move I made in turn six at ECR at any other track we race on and I would have never even been close to him and I would have completed the pass. Glenn told us all at the meeting that the inside of turn six was bad and I did not listen. My fault all the way. As soon as I turned the car it pushed all the way out to the 39. I was not even on the gas. It was like I was on marbles. Here again the better drivers in this series would not have made contact like I did. I am sorry for both times I hit the 39 and I hope to get through next year without contact with anyone much less the 39. I started thinking about the better drivers that are fast, make great passes, and never hit anyone when I thought of the "other" driver of the 55. I can't remember except when Wade spun at MSRH that Jay has ever had any contact and I don't think he has ever had any at-fault contact since we started racing. If I'm right great job Jay!


JJ

[rleng1]

You kept blaming inverts. I would like to see the data. Yes there is close racing, and some minor contact in the inverts. Usually like James stated, the guys in the back, run out of patience and know that they can pass 5 cars in T1L1. In doing so, they can break free from the pack and run fir the checkered. Good on you.
I've been hit hard 3 times in 5 years (confirmed through NSA video), and was never the result of an invert. One mechanical failure, one mis judgement on braking, and another well, er, over his head as the NSA video shows.
Patience, and learn to pass someone without sticking your nose in and moving them out of the way. If you stick you nose in, be ready to pull it out. Anticipate. Patience.
Racing is fun, exciting, and we grow to love it. TT is well, TT. I'm sure it is exciting as well, and there are some great drivers in TT. But I like racing. I've learned a lot over the years and have met my brothers for life. Cheers.

[Fbody383]

Jerry and I have talked about this several times and I'm comfortable that he just "lost" my position in the sequence of events.

I did bump David at TWS and I swear I have no recollection of moving to avoid the wreck I thought was going to happen (between Al and Glenn) but I did it.

While this is currently "no fault," (or 'less fault' as a racing incident) is it worth considering a 51/49 interpretation where AT LEAST one car is deemed to be more responsible, with points assigned accordingly?

Another thought is, if you don't run a camera, get one - the video of that incident from my car did not match up with the replay in my brain. Video is cheap and there is a lot to learn and gain clarification from a video record that could be much different than what you remember.

[ShadowBolt]

Jerry and I have talked about this several times and I'm comfortable that he just "lost" my position in the sequence of events.



While this is currently "no fault," (or 'less fault' as a racing incident) is it worth considering a 51/49 interpretation where AT LEAST one car is deemed to be more responsible, with points assigned accordingly?

Another thought is, if you don't run a camera, get one - the video of that incident from my car did not match up with the replay in my brain. Video is cheap and there is a lot to learn and gain clarification from a video record that could be much different than what you remember.

I agree about video. TWS contact was all on me as far as the 55 and the 39. I have no problem getting points for it.

JJ

[michaelmosty]

I don't like the 3/4 car width rule. You should not have to put tires in the dirt to make a pass "if" the driver you are overtaking decides to put you there. I do feel you should "have" to get within 1 inch of the grass if the driver you are overtaking decides to put you there. (a 1 car width rule)\
I find it INSANE that with the 3/4 rule you can be next to a car on a straight and he can force you into the grass by giving you your 3/4 car width!!!! With a 1 car width rule he could still move you over to the edge, but not make a situation 10 times worse by running you into the grass. That is a big difference.

Tyler's situation at ECR is tricky b/c he probably never even knew Jerry was there. Additionally though, John technically still had the right to dictate the line b/c Tyler had not fully completed the pass. I'm not calling it a bad move on Tyler's part, I would have done the same thing with the good start that was had. Also, both cars went into T1 at the similar speed so it is natural to think that both cars would push towards the outside of T1 to the similar extent.
Now Jerry started next to Tyler on row 3. Had he come from behind Tyler, row 4 or back, then I would say it was 100% on Jerry for "making it 3-wide". The fact that he started directly next to Tyler means he could have been in the exact position as Tyler was, just on the left side of John. Its a tough situation to call.

Inverts, I 100% love them. If there are more incidents during inverts, then we as a group need to do a better job to analyze why they are happening and make sure the faults / penalties / etc are discussed within the race group.
I find it crazy that people would not want the body contact forms published as public knowledge. If you are sensitive b/c you don't want someone looking at you differently b/c of "your" contact, then maybe it is good to get called out. I don't see it as a witch hunt but more of an educational lesson. Bottom line is anyone involved in contact should use it to learn.

When a new racer comes in and starts racing, they never think they will be the one that goes out and smacks into someone. Heck, when I started racing, I kept telling myself that it is called an "accident" for a reason and the 1st time someone hits me, that is just part of racing. Well, it happened that on my 4th race weekend in 2006 I was the one that screwed up first and slammed into Dave Irwin at MSRH. I still think of that incident all the time and used it both then and now to try and learn to be a better driver and handle any contact that does happen in a more stand up and professional manner.

We are all human and make mistakes but we need to make sure these incidents are handled fairly and consistently according to the rules.

[Fbody383]

I don't like the 3/4 car width rule. You should not have to put tires in the dirt to make a pass "if" the driver you are overtaking decides to put you there. I do feel you should "have" to get within 1 inch of the grass if the driver you are overtaking decides to put you there. (a 1 car width rule)

25.4.2 Punting (revisited)
Notes:
These two rules are the basis by which the IRB or Race Director will determine fault when two (2) or more cars
are involved in an on-track incident. The rules described in CCR section #25.4 are intended to help drivers
determine when they should attempt a pass, and who may be at fault should there be an incident. The main
purpose of the “¾ car width” rule is not to allow one driver to “squeeze” the other driver. The main purpose and
intent is to alert the mind of the driver that is contemplating a pass that he/she may be “forced” to go two (2)
wheels off-course to avoid a collision. Basically, this means that the overtaking driver must be certain that
he/she can attempt the pass with room to spare, and must be prepared to take evasive action if necessary.
Note to drivers: Remember that, even though you have the “right of way” it may not be smart to insist upon it.
You may be involved in a collision that was not your fault, but you may end up crashing your car, sustain
damage, get hurt, or at the very least be punted out of the race. The other driver may get penalties, but that will
not help you fix your car, get your position back, or get you out of the hospital any faster.

I disagree with the idea that the CCR allows either Car A and Car B, while travelling door to door down a straight, the RIGHT to coerce the other off the edge of the track. If you show me clear video of Car A travelling straight and Car B initiating unprovoked contact, i.e. not avoiding debris or Car C, I could easily assign fault/blame to Car B.

Please consider, even IF we adopt a 1 car width rule for passing we still have to be able to determine when the overtaking car has adequately established the mythical "position." And are you also to willing to remove the ability for the lead car to "protect their line," i.e. have one move for defense?

Changes in the definitions of "position," "racing room," and "blocking" will change how, and where, cars are driven on track. Nothing wrong with that, but expect that the resulting behavior WILL be an attempt to maximize the rules.

[BlueFirePony]

Here's an article I found interesting wrt passing:
http://www.windingroad.com/articles/...ing-etiquette/

[ShadowBolt]

Here is all of our videos. If you look at ECR R3. I did not get a good start but way better than John. If you watch at 6:35 I'm even with John. Did I have the right to the line or did John or did Tyler? I have no idea but I know as soon as we got half way to track-out in turn 1 things were going really bad in a hurry. In my mind I'm even with (or almost even certainly past his door) John and on the inside of turn 2 so I assumed the line was mine. Tyler is pushing John down and John would have hit me had I not bailed out. Please tell me what I should have done and who's fault it would have been if I had held my line all the way to turn two? I'm asking because I really don't know. Maybe it would have been my fault. If so please tell me why? I really do want to know what I should have done. These decisions are made in the blink of an eye.

https://drive.google.com/folderview?...lBCSVhIb1owSW8

JJ