BAD, BAD wreck at Porsche Club event yesterday - MSR-C

[mitchntx]

Big Bend ...

2 cars got together and one spun off on driver's left about 2/3 the way through Big Bend. In the process, a lot of grass, mud and moisture was spread across the track, right at apex.

The spinning car managed to get going again and took off.

Glenn and I both looked at the corner worker station just before Big Bend and they never threw the debris flag. It's possible no one realized that there was debris on the track because BB is kind of in a hole.

A few cars came through and wiggled, but all recovered.

A pack of 4 racers entered BB. The lead car, a red Valkyrie racing Porsche did a tank slapper, with teh driver constantly trying to catch it and recover. It finally spun in the middle-outside of the track at about the crest of the hill.

Still no flag at the corner worker station.

Car 2 went low, car 3 went high, car 4 ... had no place to go.

Car 4 hit the red car broad side. I can only speculate that the 4th car was caught unaware as the 2 cars split in front of him leaving him a windshield full of 911 Porsche sitting sideways in the track.

It was a HARD impact.

The 4th car had the front of the car flush with the front tires. And the red car was hit just behind the front tire.

The driver of the red car had to be cut out of the car and was careflighted out as a precaution. The announcement was that he was OK, it was just a precaution.

The driver in the 4th car sat in his car for a long, long, LONG time. No one was attending to him, so I can only assume he was gathering his emotions after what had just happened.

Both cars are scrap.

Several things came up for me seeing all this unfold.

First ... I witnessed the driver in the red car fight hard to recover and maintain position. And in the end it damn near cost him his life. I see too many of us doing the same thing, losing control, fighting the car and trying to maintain position, ultimately spinning across the track in front of traffic. Folks scoff under their breath about HPDE. But that is where I was taught to drive it off, get out of the way of traffic and then rejoin. Remember, it's just a piece of plastic we're racing for.

Second ... I watched the driver in the 4th car sit in his vehicle for an excruciatingly long time ... probably 30 minutes. He saw everything from the front row. And I bet he knew the driver of the red car. I can only imagine the emotions I would feel if I were to hit someone in this group of comrades.

Third ... There was never a debris flag shown, just a standing yellow. It was pulled when the original, spinning car got moving again. Never a debris flag.

And after the accident, it was a solid 2 minutes before the red flag was shown. And then another 3 or 4 minutes before fire and rescue arrived. A corner worker was able to run from entry of LITTLE bend to the accident scene before Fire and rescue was 1/2 way there. Granted, it was muddy and they couldn't cut across the track. But, a red flag should have immediately been waving and Fire and rescue drive the 300 yards against the grain of the racers to get to the drivers involved. Thank the good Lord above there wasn't a fire.

Fourth ... Kudos to PCA for taking care of the family. We were at the clubhouse and the folks wearing yellow Tee shirts already had a plan in place shuttling wife and kids to the hospital before CareFlight ever left.

Fifth ...

Clifton, Todd, Adrian, David, Al, Glenn ...

Is there any kind of information conduit between the different sanctioning bodies to share lessons learned? As a racer, I would certainly like to see some sort of information sharing about what went wrong and what went right in these terrible situations and pray to God we never ever again have to put this plan into action.

[David Love AI27]

not sure which "David" you are refering to but here is my 2 cents...

Ask Adrian about recruting workers... it is getting harder and harder to staff events... I get emails from many groups asking me to work but my time is now divided between instructing and working on cars so I don't have the time to work corners any more.

I don't have a solution so I'm not pointing fingers but it does concern me when instructing to see an understaffed crew... I make an effort to point out areas of the track that are "blind" to the corner stations so my students are more careful in those areas... As drivers, track safety should be a major concern and we should step up and voice these concerns when we see a problem (for example when we see a worker reading a book or sitting down during a session)... Race control cannot monitor all the stations and I have NEVER been told to "mind my own business" when I have pointed out problems in the past...

We, the drivers, need to voice our concerns if we see a possible safety issue...

[mitchntx]

Actually, I was asking that question to the series director and race weekend leaders. But you bring up a very good point ...

Who makes the call on what flag to post at a particular corner?

Do the corner workers make a judgment call or do they wait of direction from race control?

Do the corner stations radio control, explain what they see and wait for control to give instruction about throwing a flag?

The procedure for going all the way around the track to reach a wreck just a few hundred yards from pit entrance seemed a poor practice. Thoughts?

[Waco Racer]

Mitch,

There is way too much information to cover in one post. I can answer your questions but most likely you have more before this thread is over. Also, I may not be able to effectively relay the information that we, race officials, go through in one weekend or even one on track incident like you describe. We have many conversations before, during, and after we work an event, just to make sure that we are all on the same page and that situations are handled properly.

With that said, the corner workers typically make the decision on flag conditions. However, there are some things that are out of a corner stations' line of sight that require contact with control to allow them to display the proper flag condition. Black flag and Red flags come from me or from control at my instruction. Each organization does things differently. Anyone is welcome to come stand by me and listen to a race on the main channel or buy me a cold beverage and I will explain some of our control procedures.

[David Love AI27]

Actually, I was asking that question to the series director and race weekend leaders. But you bring up a very good point ...

Who makes the call on what flag to post at a particular corner?

worker makes call on yellow, blue, yellow and red (debris) and white

Do the corner workers make a judgment call or do they wait of direction from race control?

Race control decides black, red and when to drop debris flag.

Do the corner stations radio control, explain what they see and wait for control to give instruction about throwing a flag?

Car off course = standing yellow, car on course or in dangerous position = waving yellow, if car remains in dangerous position and appears disabled race control may opt to black flag all to clear track or red flag if EV's are needed immediately. Corners do not post black or red flag without the direction of race control

The procedure for going all the way around the track to reach a wreck just a few hundred yards from pit entrance seemed a poor practice. Thoughts?

Finally, there is a movement within many sanctioning bodys to try and respond to incidents while cars are still on course because many or most drivers voice their complaints about loss of track time and delays in schedules. There is also a steadfast rule about ANYONE, including EVs, going counter race. You would not believe how many drivers don't understand the flag conditions or just flat out ignore them.

Think about it!!! How many of us complain to the directors or stewards about being off schedule but never say anything about a cornerworker reading a book or sitting down???

[bossskip302]

Mitch, if you had( or race/PC guys in charge) radio would that of helped, when the oil spill happened at MSR last year our crew guy had no idea what racing was all about however had the common sense to let Scott and I know about the mess within 30 seconds of the problem, thus saved us from sure body contact (at least me and a few ai drivers)
Radios work
Skip

[mitchntx]

Don't misunderstand folks ... I'm not complaining about the level of service we get.

I am concerned about the level of service in a timely manner. I'm just asking if the PROCEDURES need to be revisited and revised based upon lessons learned.

I can also acknowledge that track layout plays a huge role.

MSR-C, MSR-H and TWS all have "cross-over" paths so that EV don't have to navigate the whole track in order to arrive at an incident a couple hundred yards from pit entrance.

I take well over a minute to navigate the 1.7 at MSR-C at speed. EV require 2 or 3 times that. Like I said, it was an excruitiatingly long wait for F&R to get to the crash site exiting Big Bend.

Watching the fire truck and ambulance cruise around the track while the 2 cars are sitting in the track before us made it even worse.

A gravel road along the fence that parallels the front straight at MSR-C and connects to the flag station where we get the green flag would be sufficient.

Skip, I couldn't agree more ... if the Safety Broadcast had the information to pass along. The time from the initial spin that laid down the debris to the time of impact was 30-45 seconds.

Again .. please understand. I am not complaining or talking down to the corner workers, race control or fire and rescue. Everything happened at break-neck speed and I happened to be in an unfortunate position to see it all happen.

[dirwin]

Skip,

I was the first car in the mud in Houston following the "oil spill" and was behind the Mazda when it blew up. My problem was 2 fold with that deal. 1. the idiot was smoking somthing awful and drove past 3 flag stands with no black flag. 2. the idiot himself stayed on line and instead of going in the pit then went off line and back on again coming into the last corner leaving nobody any choice but driving through the oil. I am glad the safety broadcast was going for sure, but we almost got pounded even with it.

[bossskip302]

Scott and I use motorola radios that have saved our asses more than once, due to my stupidity the receiver that Boudy has rented us has never worked...my fault.However i feel very confident using our system with a person in the pit keeping us informed whats going on.....works with pro race teams, can work for our country asses
Skip

[Todd Covini]

Like Clifton said, stand by with him or I in Control some day and watch/listen to all that goes on behind the scenes. There's a lot that goes into it and a lot of communication that goes on. (Even moreso if we could get the AI/CMC Info Broadcast fully implemented!)

Regarding the sharing of best practices, I think Adrian's got Texas pretty locked up. Her Dad heads up the Safety Crews for many of the events and a lot of the same folks crew for a lot of the different events. I think if there's an oopsy that goes on in Texas, RaceBrat is likely going to hear about it first.

NASA really has the official/primary role for safety at the events.
Series Directors communicate among the other AI/CMC regions, but only act as liasons between the racers and NASA based upon what we see/hear.

IMO, there might be some improvements we could all do in the area of best-practices or lessons learned in the racing/opentrack community. However (with a capital H), in today's legal beagle age, and the fact that all these organizations are typically competing with each other in one way or another....the sharing of information is typically limited. (I'm not explaining it away...just stating an observation.)

Routine Lessons learned and near-misses have to be in a blameless society before it'll catch on....and we're frankly just not there yet.

-=- Todd

[David Love AI27]

I MUST clarify that I have been running at a number of events lately and most of what I discussed earlier applies to some of the other groups. I flagged numerous NASATX events before I started driving and there is a lot of effort in having a competent staff and a safe track.

My comments were directed at the drivers in this forum that drive and or instruct at other events. Use your experience to recognize and communicate unsafe practices. Same goes for tech followup and constant tire and brake monitoring by students.

[mitchntx]

Like Clifton said, stand by with him or I in Control some day and watch/listen to all that goes on behind the scenes. There's a lot that goes into it and a lot of communication that goes on. (Even moreso if we could get the AI/CMC Info Broadcast fully implemented!)

Regarding the sharing of best practices, I think Adrian's got Texas pretty locked up. Her Dad heads up the Safety Crews for many of the events and a lot of the same folks crew for a lot of the different events. I think if there's an oopsy that goes on in Texas, RaceBrat is likely going to hear about it first.

NASA really has the official/primary role for safety at the events.
Series Directors communicate among the other AI/CMC regions, but only act as liasons between the racers and NASA based upon what we see/hear.

IMO, there might be some improvements we could all do in the area of best-practices or lessons learned in the racing/opentrack community. However (with a capital H), in today's legal beagle age, and the fact that all these organizations are typically competing with each other in one way or another....the sharing of information is typically limited. (I'm not explaining it away...just stating an observation.)

Routine Lessons learned and near-misses have to be in a blameless society before it'll catch on....and we're frankly just not there yet.

-=- Todd

Thanks for the words.

I fully understand the finger pointing and blame game, especially when potential law suits could loom.

It would a grand day indeed if we could just all get along ...

[Al Fernandez]

It would be an interesting and worthwhile experience to get out on a corner station for a half day or something. You could learn first hand what the communications are like, how things look on the ground, how fast/slow it is.

Back in the day we actually used this as the penalty for blowing off yellow flags etc. I've never done it myself (the being a corner worker part...blown off my share of yellow flags...) but I think it'd be worthwhile. Any others interested?

[mitchntx]

It would be an interesting and worthwhile experience to get out on a corner station for a half day or something. You could learn first hand what the communications are like, how things look on the ground, how fast/slow it is.

Back in the day we actually used this as the penalty for blowing off yellow flags etc. I've never done it myself (the being a corner worker part...blown off my share of yellow flags...) but I think it'd be worthwhile. Any others interested?

Early on in NASA Texas' life, I traded a day at Little Bend for a day of track time.

You are correct, Al. It gives one a whole new perspective.

It's why I throw the workers a rev and a wave on the cool down lap.
I also try and make it a point to stop by their "post-job brief" at grid and thank them in person.

[Waco Racer]

(Even moreso if we could get the AI/CMC Info Broadcast fully implemented!)
-=- Todd

If? More like when. News at 11. :wink:

[GlennCMC70]

(Even moreso if we could get the AI/CMC Info Broadcast fully implemented!)
-=- Todd

If? More like when. News at 11. :wink:

A.M. or P.M.?

[marshall_mosty]

(Even moreso if we could get the AI/CMC Info Broadcast fully implemented!)
-=- Todd

If? More like when. News at 11. :wink:

A.M. or P.M.?



What channel?

[Nick]

It would be an interesting and worthwhile experience to get out on a corner station for a half day or something. You could learn first hand what the communications are like, how things look on the ground, how fast/slow it is.

Back in the day we actually used this as the penalty for blowing off yellow flags etc. I've never done it myself (the being a corner worker part...blown off my share of yellow flags...) but I think it'd be worthwhile. Any others interested?

Positive Penalty. I'm all for it.

[TEXAST1]

Mitch,

Thanks for remembering, Mike and I did try to cover this in HPDE. :wink:

[mitchntx]

Mitch,

Thanks for remembering, Mike and I did try to cover this in HPDE. :wink:

All I recall from Mike's instruction was ...
"Don't lift in Ricochet ... Don't lift in Ricochet!"

After the tires stop screaming and the smoke cleared, he asked,
"Now, you know what you did?"

"Yeah ... I didn't lift in Ricochet!"

And then he tried to get me to ride along in HIS car. :roll:

[David Love AI27]

It would be an interesting and worthwhile experience to get out on a corner station for a half day or something. You could learn first hand what the communications are like, how things look on the ground, how fast/slow it is.

Back in the day we actually used this as the penalty for blowing off yellow flags etc. I've never done it myself (the being a corner worker part...blown off my share of yellow flags...) but I think it'd be worthwhile. Any others interested?

Being an experienced corner worker does have its DISADVANTAGES... I blew a yellow one time and K. Mix met me afterwords and with finger pointed said "Why did you make a pass under yellow?!?... You of ALL people, should know better!!!!

But really.. I would be more than happy to share corner working duties with any of you... I'll even drive to Cresson for a TDE event or pca event if you are serious about understanding what goes on "out there"... and for those of you in Houston area, I'm available for almost all events at TWS and MSR-H... the bonus is that some groups pay $60-80 per day.

I would love to post the experiences that got me into this crazy sport... that would be a cool thread.. "How we got here"...

[rpoz27]

If anyone is interested, the driver of the car that spun and got hit is an experienced instructor and racer. His wife was in attendance at the time of the accident. The driver is still in the hospital in Dallas with multiple injuries. His crew told me that he needs pins in his pelvis (broken in 2 places), multiple ribs on his left side are broken, and he has a blood clot in his brain that they are watching. He is concious and recovering, but could use some good thoughts and prayers sent his way.

The driver of the other vehicle had some soreness, but was, otherwise, fine.

[mitchntx]

Oh man ... I had hoped for better news.

Thanks for the update ...

[GlennCMC70]

thanks Misty. bad new. hope he recovers.

[Boudy]

Damn! I'm truly sorry to hear that and hope his condition improves.

Understanding the risks involved with our hobby, something like this still makes me ponder what more could be done to prevent such accidents or further protect the driver in the event of such accidents.

Many good points have been made in this thread and I agree with all. But geeze, still hate to hear of things like this.

Boudy

[TEXAST1]

Mitch, I was talking about riding out the spin. :o

I have been in similar situations not a fun place to be. I would certainly believe he saw the hit coming. :cry:

I wonder if he has Door Bars?

[mitchntx]

Because I'm just now getting into this roll cage thing and we're building based upon other people's knowledge base, I really wanted to look the car over and see what moved and how far.

But, it didn't feel right doing that, so ...

[Boudy]

I really wanted to look the car over and see what moved and how far.

My thinking was on these same lines. I'd really like to know what all he had protecting him.

Boudy

[jeffburch]

Ask him to see it.
I bet AJ or (what is that gals name that runs a Porch with us at MSRC)
has info to help.

jb

[GlennCMC70]

Misty has connections w/ the Valkery guys. i would love to see some pics.

[BryanL]

Like others I hate reading about the incident and hope the best for a good recovery.

At what point I actually race I hope there will be a safety broadcast. I would be a big supporter of this.

I am heading to cresson right now and will ask AJ about the car to see if he has looked at it.
Everyone is correct that incidents should always be looked at to see if something can be learned to help the next one.

Mixon I don't remember you telling the guy in the GT40 to ride it out when he spun????? To quote "I have 750 horsepower so its going to get away from me" I think eveyone in the room made a mental note of the guy and the car to stay as far away from him as possible.

[TEXAST1]

Bry, as you may recall he was conducting the class. 8)

[rpoz27]

Ford GT guy was mindbogglingly clueless and obnoxious. Sorry you had to deal with him, K, and I'm glad you survived it, Bryan.

In brighter news... Bob took a turn for the better yesterday. The bleeding in his brain stopped and the clot caused by it has reduced in size. The doctors felt confident enough in his condition that they scheduled him for surgery on his hip. I haven't heard anything today, but surgery was this morning and yesterday they were predicting 7 - 10 days more in the hospital and, if all goes well, he gets to go home.

[BryanL]

Thanks for the update and that sounds like good news.

I talked to AJ about the wreck and how the cage looked. He said he may post up to give some more feedback. But what he said was everything did move. Though the cage did its job. It had door bars but not nascar door bars. Since it was a lightweight car the cage thickness wasn't as heavy as our cars. He thought that if the impact was a few feet different there probably would have been a fatality.

Bryan

[AJ@PST]

I think that it is great that the safety discussion has been started again.

The safety broadcast is a great idea. It is really a must have for those of you without spotters. In my Trans-AM Series days we were required to have a dedicated crew member listening to the official SCCA broadcast. The teams then selected the information that was relayed to the driver. The broadcast will also help the officials to officiate during the event when black flags may be ignored. My suggestion is for competitors to at least pick up a $100 scanner and program in the race control frequency. It should be easy to do.

My safety rant-
Plan for the worst...
I know that most of you do but there is still work that can be done. I was shown a lot of crash videos at my HANS training from the test sled and the interior of a car. You will be surprised in how many things do move and how far. Keep things low and bolted to solid places in the car. The sheet metal in a unibody is going to fold up. Also remove the items that you do not need in the race car. I have seen some cars with non essential factory installed interior items left in the car. You cannot plan for Indy 500 rescue response time. It does not happen anywhere but Indy. So prepare your car for the worst case in your car prep.

I have sold HANS devices to many of you. Some of you have said that you don't even wear them because they are not required. Some of you have said that it will break your routine. Some of you have said that it is uncomfortable. Do I need to name names? Please get in touch with me if you have a problem with comfort or driving with your HANS device. This device has been developed for the last 25 years it is about as fool proof as head and neck restraint devices come. I can help with getting you comfortable with the device. I have many customers that I have helped that now do not realize they are wearing the device when racing.

[marshall_mosty]

It's good to hear that the driver is in better shape. We'll keep him in our prayers.


Regarding the HANS, I purchased a HANS from AJ at the end of the 2005 season and wore it through all of 2006 and the two events I've attended in '07. I saw no comfort loss and can't tell I'm wearing it except for a slightly reduced head rotation angle.

After hitting the tires (twice) at MSR-H in Febuary, I'm very glad that I was wearing the HANS.

The first impact was head on, square with the front of the car at approx 25mph. Hood cracked pretty good and my aluminum bumper cracked and moved back about an inch. I'm sure my neck would have been sore, or worse without the HANS.
http://www.mustangmods.com/ims/u/1280/8530/141366.jpg

The second impact was a tank slapper from quarter panel into driver's door. Pushed the rocker sill in 2" and caved the door 8" into the "X" brace. The impact highlighted the passenger side net I installed between the '06 and '07 season. I'm glad that was there too.
http://www.mustangmods.com/ims/u/1280/8530/141362.jpg
http://www.mustangmods.com/ims/u/1280/8530/141364.jpg

[rpoz27]

Bob's surgery went well. The hospital is keeping him to give him time to heal adequately before sending him home, but they feel that he is doing well. He'll probably be released late this week or early next. According to Valkyrie, he doesn't plan to race again.

Scott at Valkyrie answered questions about the cage condition. The frame of the car buckled and tore in places, but, apparently, the cage did not collapse. The driver's side frame was significantly pushed in and the passenger side was pushed out a corresponding amount. He said everything was shifted over 8 inches or so. Scott says the car is now shaped like a (. I was kinda surprised that the cage held 'cuz it was a bolt-in. Valkyrie did say that it may have been much worse if the driver of the other vehicle hadn't been hard on the brakes at the time of the hit. That by dropping the nose significantly, he hit frame and moved everything, not to mention slowing the car and reducing force of impact to about 85 mph. Hitting higher on the door and around 95-100 mph very possibly would have crushed Bob, not to mention what might have happened to the driver of the other car, who had left his HANS in his trailer. Listen to AJ guys! If you got it, wear it.

[David Love AI27]

AJ... I am going to try and make the TDE event in July... I have the strongest cage in the NASATX region including 3 bar nascar bars on BOTH sides, petty bar and the seat is mounted to the cage (not the floor pan) but I don't have hans... PM me and lets arrange fitting for new helmet and HANS.... LOOK OUT GUYS AND GALS... with my backup '85 car for body parts its gonna be bumper car city in '08... just kiddin'...

[AJ@PST]

Misty-
Good to hear that the drivers will be OK.

Marshall and others who own HANS devices-
A good tip is to measure and record the tether lengths on the device and record it. Then after an impact of any real magnitude re-measure the tethers and check for stretch. If the tethers have been stretched they should be replaced just the same as harness belts need to be. I have an example in my showroom of a device that has seen some action and the tethers stretched 1/4"-3/8".

I will have right side window nets available soon. They are awaiting SFI testing.

[Al Fernandez]

measure and record the tether lengths on the device and record it.

That is really cool advice that I'd never heard before. Thanks!

[Fbody383]

I have the strongest cage in the NASATX region including 3 bar nascar bars on BOTH sides, petty bar and the seat is mounted to the cage (not the floor pan)
David,

Do you pictures of the seat mounting you're willing to post? I'd like to see the driver's right side mount.

I've been thinking about how to mount the seat in a new CMC car. I know some add tuding perpendicular to the stock mounts to gain more support than just the floor sheet metal.

Could/should these also be tied into a door sill bar that connects the A-pillar/main hoop bars?

[David Love AI27]

I have the strongest cage in the NASATX region including 3 bar nascar bars on BOTH sides, petty bar and the seat is mounted to the cage (not the floor pan)
David,

Do you pictures of the seat mounting you're willing to post? I'd like to see the driver's right side mount.

I've been thinking about how to mount the seat in a new CMC car. I know some add tuding perpendicular to the stock mounts to gain more support than just the floor sheet metal.

Could/should these also be tied into a door sill bar that connects the A-pillar/main hoop bars?

I will be switching out seat this weekend and will take photos... watch for new thread...

[Todd Covini]

Perhaps it is time for another public service message....

The latest internet crash compilation video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WR5bnGM7kqs

Stuff happens...make sure you and your equipment is as safe as it can be!

-=- Todd