Technically speaking ...

[mitchntx]

As you all know, Steve's motor let go during Saturday qualification.
So technically, he qualified for both races on Saturday.

I noticed that RayBob and Tommy got to grid late and had to take the green flag from pit road.

If Steve had gotten his car to pit road before the green was dropped, he would have technically taken the green flag just like Tommy and RayBob.

He just wouldn't have left pit road.



Section 9.1

All cars that start the race shall be considered finishers.


This would have gotten him points and in the finishing order.

What I'm not sure about is if it would have applied to Sunday as he never could have made a qualifying run. Others who didn't make a qual lap, get gridded at the back. So I'm thinking it still would have applied.

[michaelmosty]

I was on the understanding that you have to cross start/finish at least once to "take the green".

Just my interpretation.

[mitchntx]

I was on the understanding that you have to cross start/finish at least once to "take the green".

Just my interpretation.

I thought so too. But I don't read that any where.

In the CCR it says a car has to start in false grid "in a conventional manner", meaning no jump starting, push starting or bump starting.

But that's not abundantly clear on if a car is considered "taken the green flag" if it DOESN'T start.

I have no agenda, here. I'm not trying to get Steve in the results so Toyo bucks can be awarded. I'm not that shallow.

But in a tight points battle, this kind of "strategy" could play a role in season ending points.

[chris-CMC#35]

In CMC, all you need to do is take the green flag, and you will get points. This is different from AI. I don't know, but it seems like this would apply to CMC-2 as well...?

-chris

[mitchntx]

No Texas director has chimed in so either they don't know, don't care or are hoping they don't ever have to make a decision.

[RichardP]

The interpretation that I always used was that the car had to cross the timing loop at least once after the green flag was shown in order to gather points.


Richard P.

[mitchntx]

The interpretation that I always used was that the car had to cross the timing loop at least once after the green flag was shown in order to gather points.


Richard P.

That's a simple interpretation. If that's the case, the rules need to say that and not leave it open to ANY interpretation.

Someone is gonna try this some day.

[michaelmosty]

I think you are looking at it as too much of a grey area.
For arguments sake: what is the difference in "taking the green" from grid vs. from your pit stall? I agree w/ Richard that taking the green means crossing the timing loop.

If taking the green can be done from grid, then it can be done from your pit box, and also from my garage in Richardson, TX, etc.

Is it OK to put gas in my car? 8)

[mitchntx]

I think you are looking at it as too much of a grey area.
For arguments sake: what is the difference in "taking the green" from grid vs. from your pit stall? I agree w/ Richard that taking the green means crossing the timing loop.

If taking the green can be done from grid, then it can be done from your pit box, and also from my garage in Richardson, TX, etc.

Is it OK to put gas in my car? 8)

Well, the CMC rules doesn't say you can fuel your car so ... :wink:

That's an interesting interpretation. But in the scenario I outlined, the car reports to grid as if intended to race.

"Taking a green flag" is a far cry from "completing one lap". I don't think I've ever seen the green flag displayed when crossing the timing loop for the first time.

Again, I'm not advocating anything or trying to create drama. After what happened this past weekend, it got me to thinking, that's all.

[RichardP]

I don't think I've ever seen the green flag displayed when crossing the timing loop for the first time.


Huh? It's there every time except for that one race we had with the split start where the yellow was displayed when we came around to start our race.


Richard P.

[Waco Racer]

The interpretation that I always used was that the car had to cross the timing loop at least once after the green flag was shown in order to gather points.


Richard P.

Richard is correct.


Someone is gonna try this some day.

No they are not.

[mitchntx]

I don't think I've ever seen the green flag displayed when crossing the timing loop for the first time.


Huh? It's there every time except for that one race we had with the split start where the yellow was displayed when we came around to start our race.


Richard P.

So it's take the 2nd green flag?

And by crossing the timing loop the first time, I meant after completing the first lap.



The interpretation that I always used was that the car had to cross the timing loop at least once after the green flag was shown in order to gather points.


Richard P.

Richard is correct.


Someone is gonna try this some day.

No they are not.

Because you say so or because the rules say so? :P

[AI#97]

Mitch, just get in your car and drive for pete's sake... :roll:

[Waco Racer]

And by crossing the timing loop the first time, I meant after completing the first lap.

Not the same thing.


Because you say so or because the rules say so? :P

Doesn't matter. :twisted:

[mitchntx]

:roll:

:wink: :lol: 8)

[AI#97]

:roll:

:wink: :lol: 8)

Mitch, how friggin' hard is it to understand that "take the green flag" means that the flag man waves the green flag to signal the start of the race and you must cross that line HE is standing over by at least 1"???

How the hell you and Glenn haven't killed one another yet is beyond me!

[mitchntx]

:roll:

:wink: :lol: 8)

Mitch, how friggin' hard is it to understand that "take the green flag" means that the flag man waves the green flag to signal the start of the race and you must cross that line HE is standing over by at least 1"???

How the hell you and Glenn haven't killed one another yet is beyond me!

Read the whole thread, MFW ...

2 cars "took the green flag" Saturday and never crossed the S/F line in the beginning of the race.

And as stated earlier "taking the green flag" is a lot different than "completing 1 lap".

What if your K-Member lightening episode happened right after the green dropped and you came into the pits BEFORE crossing the S/F line. According to some interpretations here, you should be given a DNS. Is that right?

And we're beginning to mix CMC and AI rules. I am speaking specifically to CMC rules.

As far as Glenn and I, yeah, he can be a real prick sometimes ... 8)

Maybe this is what seperates me from others. I actually sit down and read and re-read the rules, study them and look at them from various perspectives.

[GlennCMC70]

if a car fails durring a warn-up lap and never crosses the start/finish, they are considered DNS. if it happens durring the first race lap, but they dont complete the first lap, they are DNF.

having to sit in grid while the rest of the cars take the green is a penalty. if they were to not be able to leave grid when released, they would be a DNS.
MM has a point. your not a starter if your in grid when the race starts. your not a starter from pit, on the trailer or from home.

so no - Steve would not be considered a starter if he pushed his car to grid and took his spot. he would if he had took the warm-up lap and took his spot on track for the green.

[GlennCMC70]

from the 2008 CCR:


21.2 Race Starter
A driver must cross the starting line, under “green track conditions,” with a car under its
own power, at some time during the race, before the checkered flag is displayed.

[AI#97]

What if your K-Member lightening episode happened right after the green dropped and you came into the pits BEFORE crossing the S/F line. According to some interpretations here, you should be given a DNS. Is that right?

And we're beginning to mix CMC and AI rules. I am speaking specifically to CMC rules.



yes, that is correct...granted that was a qual session I did that in.

Thanks Glenn, you beat me to it...MW was reading the CMC rules too specifically when there is a better clarification in the CCR....widen the blinders! When it boils right down to it though, Clifton can call you whatever he wants as race director as what he says goes. period! I don't want to know what he calls me behind my back! :lol:

Anyway, what is typical or reasonable to expect to be counted in a race? To get points in AI, you must complete 1/2 the laps of the winning car. Maybe it should be that way in CMC so a wounded car doesn't just roll around the first lap potentially creating a mess just to get last place points. Look back to 2006 when Chris Marvel was having fuel related issues and running well off the pace. I wasn't there so I don't know how bad it was but I recall he was lapped by Robert King. I understand the premise of running the race to get points, but at what point would it have been unsafe. Chris was still running, not dropping fluid or digging up asphalt, but what if he was? Should an oil leaking CMC car be able to take a green flag and hose the track down and points count only to create a potentially unsafe track condition?? Don't know what the reasoning was in AI to have a different rule but it might not hurt to ask JWL sometime.

Too many "what if's" here. Just get in and drive! :D

[Al Fernandez]

Well said Glenn.

We made the CMC rules on purpose to give you credit if you break on the first lap. Matt, the potential problem you mention would be no different based on the AI or the CMC rules: someone could be out there with a wounded car just to collect points. Either way, that is what race control and the corner marshalls are looking out for and will hand out black falgs or meatballs as necessary.