What are we waiting for?`

[ShadowBolt]

What is the holdup in letting us know the new rules? I would like to get to work on my car but don't know what is coming down. We are calling this our off season but we only have about 30 days more than the normal time between races (97 days from today). Sounds like a long time and it is except for the holidays and any vacations (sking) taken at this time of year. I have to get my new cheatin bastard cam installed and hidden computer chip recalibrated. Since I don't have the skills to compete with you guys I think I will cheat! What did the poet say....."catch me if you can".

In all seriousness I need to remove the heads and do the valve seals and springs. If we are going to stay with CMC then that and normal between race stuff is all I need to do. If the new rules are going to give us (me) slow Fox drivers something to help us compete I need to know what it is so I can get on with it.


JJ

[GlennCMC70]

we are having a conf call tonight. look for them to be released in the next week or so. years past we have had to wait till January, feel lucky.

[RichardP]

years past we have had to wait till January, feel lucky.


In past years the scope of possible changes was never anywhere near as great...

Richard P.

[King Matt]

We're all waiting for the news. I'd ask on the CMC forums, but I can't. :wink:

[GlennCMC70]

years past we have had to wait till January, feel lucky.


In past years the scope of possible changes was never anywhere near as great...

Richard P.

all the more reason to be glad its happening in a week.

for those of you who like CMC - just do your normal off season maint and go on about your daily lives.

[Al Fernandez]

Guys, there really is nothing major to be expecting. Look back at what has changed in CMC over the years other than the creation of CMC2...small stuff, mostly clarifications to existing rules. The single biggest change in the CMC rule set since 2003 that affects performance was allowing you to relocate the battery!

This year, as with all years, I tabulated all submittals and ended up with something on the order of 35 or 40 discreet items. The vast majority are clarifications to what we're already enforcing. There are a few truly new things, but even those are pretty tiny in scope (allowing solid motor mounts for example).

The point is I think when you see the rules its going to be very anticlimactic. We have done a bunch of work around removing text that isnt needed, and general cleaning up and organizing, so the rules will read a little different (hopefully easier) but the meat will be pretty much the same.

The only substantial stuff comes in CMC2: formal allowance of fox/3rd gens, dropping power down to 260/310 and weight down to around 3200 (depending on platform) and allowing foxes to modify fenders to enable a wider track. None of that is news though, you all had heard that previously.

BUT, and to answer your question directly Jerry, nothing is final until it is final and that is why we want to wait until we have a complete set, discussed, reviewed and approved by both CMC directors and NASA National.

[AllZWay]

We're all waiting for the news. I'd ask on the CMC forums, but I can't. :wink:

Hey Matt... This group can probably handle another bad apple. :lol:

[Fbody383]

We're all waiting for the news. I'd ask on the CMC forums, but I can't. :wink: So much for don't kill the messenger.


Hey Matt... This group can probably handle another bad apple. :lol:

There are no bad apples here... and this group can certainly stand a little cussin' and discussin'.

[King Matt]

not over here Matt.

glad to have you here and all, but dont bring the National issues you have over here.

- Glenn Landrum AI/CMC Texas Regional Director

[Fbody383]

Dude, we got to get you to Texas. I can still sponsor a couple for this year.

Matt King for Vice President!

removed quote - GL.

[King Matt]

They're everybody's issues if you care about the class, but it looks like you guys might have some issues of your own. :roll:

[David Love AI27]

They're everybody's issues if you care about the class, but it looks like you guys might have some issues of your own. :roll:

LOL, we have no "class"... :twisted: the thread with the most viewings at the moment concerns the LeMons race... :? that kinda speaks for itself... :shock:

[RichardP]

Guys, there really is nothing major to be expecting.


That's unfortunate. Without some changes to the words to pull things back, people are going to have to make very real, very expensive, and (in my opinion) some very non-CMC like changes to their cars to "keep up".

It seems like changing the words now is easier than changing all the cars. That won't be true next year...


Richard P.

[GlennCMC70]

Guys, there really is nothing major to be expecting.


That's unfortunate. Without some changes to the words to pull things back, people are going to have to make very real, very expensive, and (in my opinion) some very non-CMC like changes to their cars to "keep up".

It seems like changing the words now is easier than changing all the cars. That won't be true next year...


Richard P.

when Al says there is nothing major, he means it. soon to be announced is that CMC will stay as is untill no-one wants to run it. if you want to run in CMC-2, wait for the rules. if thats not a big enough of a clue, then call me.

214-869-9603.

[jeffburch]

They're everybody's issues if you care about the class, but it looks like you guys might have some issues of your own. :roll:

LOL, we have no "class"... :twisted: the thread with the most viewings at the moment concerns the LeMons race... :? that kinda speaks for itself... :shock:

Can you call the Lemons guys and ask if they'll do 6/yr. here in Tx?
Nothing like a good plan B :)

jb

[RichardP]

CMC will stay as is untill no-one wants to run it.

Well, that's one solution. I kind of keep hearing that everyone wants to run together without balooning the concept of CMC to where CMC2 has gone. I could be wrong...


Richard P.

[silversvo]

They're everybody's issues if you care about the class, but it looks like you guys might have some issues of your own. :roll:

LOL, we have no "class"... :twisted: the thread with the most viewings at the moment concerns the LeMons race... :? that kinda speaks for itself... :shock:

Can you call the Lemons guys and ask if they'll do 6/yr. here in Tx?
Nothing like a good plan B :)

jb

JB - If they said yes, then all you would have to do is put your car back together the way it is.

[jeffburch]

:evil:



8)
jb

[David Love AI27]

They're everybody's issues if you care about the class, but it looks like you guys might have some issues of your own. :roll:

LOL, we have no "class"... :twisted: the thread with the most viewings at the moment concerns the LeMons race... :? that kinda speaks for itself... :shock:

Can you call the Lemons guys and ask if they'll do 6/yr. here in Tx?
Nothing like a good plan B :)

jb

@ $1,000 per team per race.... 1,000 x 75 = 75,000 x 6 = $450,000... not to shabby

[ShadowBolt]

CMC will stay as is untill no-one wants to run it.

Well, that's one solution. I kind of keep hearing that everyone wants to run together without balooning the concept of CMC to where CMC2 has gone. I could be wrong...


Richard P.

You are correct Richard.


JJ

[King Matt]

Leaving CMC alone will be a good thing for the medium term. But allowing CMC-2 to encroach into AI will not be a good thing for either class. If NASA is smart, they will take CMC-2 and merge it into the AI structure as an entry point to that series. There will still be confusion about CMC vs. AI, but at least CMC as it currently exists can be left to live out its life expectancy, which hopefully will be a good long while. I think NASA would ultimately like to see the name go away and all our cars be merged into AI.

[jeffburch]

Why do they want the CMC name to go away?

jb

[King Matt]

Because of the dilution and potential confusion caused by pony cars running in similar classes with different names. Think of GTS or Honda Challenge. If all the V-8 pony cars ran in an AI 1-2-3-4 class structure, that might actually make some sense.

[GlennCMC70]

just my thoughts here.

JWL is the AI head honcho - he likes AI.
Ryan F is a big fan of Honda Challenge (think H1-H4).
both of those guys are big wigs at NASA HQ.
the thought of AI1-AI4 is appealing.
remember HC is a MAJOR class in Cali - where NASA HQ is located.
they see sucess in HC, and want the same sucess for what is known as AI/CMC. Todd Who has always treated AI/CMC as a sister series and for good reason - we both complemet the other. i'm sure JWL sees the same thing.

[King Matt]

It's an unfortunate reality that in certain regions there is an adversarial relationship between AI and CMC and participation between the two classes is viewed by some as a zero-sum game. You guys in Texas seem to be the group that displays this tendancy the least, but in the east it's especially true, and the west coast doesn't seem too far behind. Here in the Midwest we see the potential to grow both CMC (as a rules concept more than a name) and AI through integration, which is why we had proposed creating our own class and moving ahead together. I don't think that's going to happen now, but I do think it kick-started a re-examination of what was happening in CMC, and I know for a fact that our proposal is what spurred NASA National to get much more involved with the ongoing discussions.

[GlennCMC70]

Matt King saved the world.

[King Matt]

Thanks for finally noticing. :wink: If we'd just sat around bitching on the CMC forums we'd all be banned and running AI Light in 2010.

edit: I'm not looking for credit or praise. There were many people who had a hand in turning this around: JB, Glenn, Dave Royce, JWL, and the many others who made their opinions known publicly and privately. It's still not a perfect system, but hopefully we made a forceful enough statement to take back our class.

[RagingAardvark]

If all the V-8 pony cars ran in an AI 1-2-3-4 class structure, that might actually make some sense.

Didn't this cause plenty of issues when TransAm was run in a similar fashion for a few years in the 80s? At least one of the classes was eliminated after only a year or two, right?

If done right, I don't see an issue with it. Mostly I just want to keep racing our American V8. don't make us go Spec Pinata ;)

[GlennCMC70]

If all the V-8 pony cars ran in an AI 1-2-3-4 class structure, that might actually make some sense.

Didn't this cause plenty of issues when TransAm was run in a similar fashion for a few years in the 80s? At least one of the classes was eliminated after only a year or two, right?

If done right, I don't see an issue with it. Mostly I just want to keep racing our American V8. don't make us go Spec Pinata ;)

in a way, we already have it. CMC (AI1), CMC-2 (AI2), AI (AI3), AIX (AI4).
the thing is, i dont want to change the legal platforms allowed in CMC(2) just be cause AI does no matter what we call ourselves. example, if you have a GTO, the lowest class in the AI series you would be able to run would be AI3 under the proposed rename.

none of this stuff is on the table as of now, its just a bunch of stuff being asked between a few directors now. i'm not a big fan of it, but i do see where it makes sence.

[GlennCMC70]

wasnt this thread about when the 2009 rules were going to be out?

did we answer that question well enough?

[Fbody383]

wasnt this thread about...???

Since when did that stop anybody here?

[mitchntx]

I hope this site doesn't become the "new" voice of the people

I'm all for rage against the machine ... I'm also a big NIMBY supporter.

[AI#97]

Can you call the Lemons guys and ask if they'll do 6/yr. here in Tx?
Nothing like a good plan B :)

jb

I am ready right now to go with that!



What I find funny is that I have "been tell'n" you guys all along, AI is where the fun is at! ;) :lol: Besides, we need the car count for the TOYO bucks! :oops:

[GlennCMC70]

Can you call the Lemons guys and ask if they'll do 6/yr. here in Tx?
Nothing like a good plan B :)

jb

I am ready right now to go with that!



What I find funny is that I have "been tell'n" you guys all along, AI is where the fun is at! ;) :lol: Besides, we need the car count for the TOYO bucks! :oops:

trust me, AI has way more problems the CMC. thus the needed car count for Toyo Bucks.

[roadracerwhite]

Can you call the Lemons guys and ask if they'll do 6/yr. here in Tx?
Nothing like a good plan B :)

jb

I am ready right now to go with that!



What I find funny is that I have "been tell'n" you guys all along, AI is where the fun is at! ;) :lol: Besides, we need the car count for the TOYO bucks! :oops:

trust me, AI has way more problems the CMC. thus the needed car count for Toyo Bucks.


Coming from AI to CMC; I would also agree. :)


... I'm also a big NIMBY supporter.

Sorry, just another Midwest guy in your back yard. I will try to keep it down. 8)

[mitchntx]

Sorry, just another Midwest guy in your back yard.


Kind of like cockroaches. Where there is one ...

:P

8)
:D

[AI#97]

trust me, AI has way more problems the CMC. thus the needed car count for Toyo Bucks.

I would love to hear your take on what is wrong in AI... So far, the only items being bitched about are LS1's in mustangs and some small clarifications on dimensions of front aero work. That is NOTHING compared to the changes being proposed to merge CMC/2...

In all honesty, there is a lot of sentiment on the AI board welcoming those building for CMC/2011 as future AI racers who are only a couple of parts away from an AI car already. CMC/2 is merely a splitter, a different cam part number and maybe a K-member away from AI and we have all heard the story of LT1 f-bodies "just pullin' the restrictor to come play in AI" stories... :roll:

[jeffburch]

Because of the dilution and potential confusion caused by pony cars running in similar classes with different names. Think of GTS or Honda Challenge. If all the V-8 pony cars ran in an AI 1-2-3-4 class structure, that might actually make some sense.

Well pouring CMC into the -2 glass didn't work.
Hows that for dilution gone awry?
As long as there's DISTICTION in the rulebook (between the 4 classes) I could care less is someone on the outside is confued.
20+ rumbling V8's on the track is enough for all nearby to run to the fences to watch.
I've done and will continue to do my part for the show.
The rest is out of my hands.

jb

[Fbody383]

I've done and will continue to do my part for the show.


Long live Mr. The 3 Time Champ!

[King Matt]

Well pouring CMC into the -2 glass didn't work.
Hows that for dilution gone awry?
I completely agree. Four classes could work, three won't without a lot of existing cars needing to make a lot a big changes, and we know how that was received. If you look at the current situation, like Glenn said it pretty much is AI 1-2-3-4 now in all but name. So it's important that whatever the "new" CMC-2 becomes, it fits into that context. Pushing it too close to AI(3) doesn't make any sense.

[cjlmlml]

I hope this site doesn't become the "new" voice of the people

I'm all for rage against the machine ... I'm also a big NIMBY supporter.


Mitch, I thought you were a member of NAMBLA?

[Rob Liebbe]

Sorry if I'm a little late - I've been travelling this week.

Class naming everything the same ala AI 1-2-3 seems a lot more confusing than something with different names like Camaro-Mustang-Challenge and Americon Iron to me.

Seems like we're back to square one with three viable classes - CMC - CMC2 - and AI.


When are the rules coming out again? Jerry is itching to bend 'em and Burch is itching to kick everyone's ass with his same old original intent CMC car. Heck, I even gave the CMC2 guys a run for their money in a CMC Fox body for Pete's sake.

Bring on 2009!!!!!!!!

[David Love AI27]

I hope this site doesn't become the "new" voice of the people

I'm all for rage against the machine ... I'm also a big NIMBY supporter.

LOL, yep put that reactor in somebody elses back yard.... LOL

[David Love AI27]

I'm still gonna build what I want and let yous guys tell me what class I'm in... don't really care about no stinkin' rules, jus wanna run with the V-8 muscle cars!!! like JB said, thats what brings 'em to the fences...

[mitchntx]

I hope this site doesn't become the "new" voice of the people

I'm all for rage against the machine ... I'm also a big NIMBY supporter.


Mitch, I thought you were a member of NAMBLA?

Need to re-read your yearbook. Won't see my picture in there.




I hope this site doesn't become the "new" voice of the people

I'm all for rage against the machine ... I'm also a big NIMBY supporter.

LOL, yep put that reactor in somebody elses back yard.... LOL

Reactors and nuclear waste disposal sites are OK, cockroaches aren't, though. 8)

[David Love AI27]

I hope this site doesn't become the "new" voice of the people

I'm all for rage against the machine ... I'm also a big NIMBY supporter.

LOL, yep put that reactor in somebody elses back yard.... LOL

Reactors and nuclear waste disposal sites are OK, cockroaches aren't, though. 8)[/quote]

Neather the reactor or the waste can kill one...

[ShadowBolt]

When are the rules coming out again? Jerry is itching to bend 'em.

Bring on 2009!!!!!!!!

I'm not itching to bend the rules but I had not heard a thing about what direction we were going. I may go CMC-2 if there are more cars in that class. Either way Team Jordan gave up almost 30 ft. lbs. of tq. in 08 and we are not going to do that again in 09. It may not make any difference in where we finish but it gets old getting pulled by every car on the track.

Any ideas on what help the Mustang is going to get?

I need all the help I can get.
JJ

[Alien]

I thought this was clarified in another thread. My understanding is that the 5.0L guys aren't getting ANY help hp wise (well nothing dramatic like headers or a cam) for the 2009 season for CMC-2. If the directors knew what would work to get up to 260hp, they wouldn't have pushed back the transfer date. If you go run in -2 next year, you WILL get pulled on even harder with the 4th gen guys (since we don't have any 4.6s) running 260hp.

edit...
http://www.aicmctexas.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2256&highlight=

[GlennCMC70]

I thought this was clarified in another thread. My understanding is that the 5.0L guys aren't getting ANY help hp wise (well nothing dramatic like headers or a cam) for the 2009 season for CMC-2. If the directors knew what would work to get up to 260hp, they wouldn't have pushed back the transfer date. If you go run in -2 next year, you WILL get pulled on even harder with the 4th gen guys (since we don't have any 4.6s) running 260hp.

the CMC and CMC-2 merge has been nix'ed. for 2009 - nothing will change for CMC (hp/weight wise). my bet is most all folks will stay CMC for as long as they can. Jerry, i was down almost 15hp. that will change for 2009 for me.

[Al Fernandez]

Gary...not true. The rules will clearly state that 302/305 cars wanting to run in cmc2 will be allowed to run parts not specified in the rules in order to reach the power numbers as long as the parts in question are cleared with the directors ahead of time. This is the test mule program which will be defined in a rules supplement document. Its going to take some experimentation, no way around that. Through testing we will develop the list of allowances that will formally be incorporated into the rules. Anyone that wants to is welcome to participate.

If Mitch and Steve stay in cmc2 then that makes four cmc2 cars counting Bryan and Chuck's LS1 cars. I'll for sure run cmc2 if there are four cars there to round out the toyo bucks (glenn is taking good care of my new/old ss ten spokes!)...might stay there all year though. 8)

Glenn...for clarity, the merger was never scheduled to happen in 2009.

[ShadowBolt]

I thought this was clarified in another thread. My understanding is that the 5.0L guys aren't getting ANY help hp wise (well nothing dramatic like headers or a cam) for the 2009 season for CMC-2. If the directors knew what would work to get up to 260hp, they wouldn't have pushed back the transfer date. If you go run in -2 next year, you WILL get pulled on even harder with the 4th gen guys (since we don't have any 4.6s) running 260hp.

the CMC and CMC-2 merge has been nix'ed. for 2009 - nothing will change for CMC (hp/weight wise). my bet is most all folks will stay CMC for as long as they can. Jerry, i was down almost 15hp. that will change for 2009 for me.

I guess since they are going to let CMC slowly die off they will never again look at trying to get the cars even. I (and other Fox drivers) assumed we were going to get some kind of help. I know I read where Tony said we (Fox drivers) were going to be very happy with the changes in the rules to help our car. That is what I've been waiting on. I guess I should have known it was a bunch of BS!


JJ.

[Alien]

Gary...not true.
I think we're on the same page, I was just too lazy to retype it.

From the other thread I linked... :wink:

So you'll be running WAY down on power compared to a -2 car unless you are one of the test mules.

[GlennCMC70]

Al, note the period before the 2009. learn to read.

for the Fox, i'm not entirely sure the weight will not drop to 3100. i know that is the case for CMC-2, not sure about CMC. so its not BS. at the time this was decided we didnt know the merg was gonna be stopped.

[ShadowBolt]

Al, note the period before the 2009. learn to read.

for the Fox, i'm not entirely sure the weight will not drop to 3100. i know that is the case for CMC-2, not sure about CMC. so its not BS. at the time this was decided we didnt know the merg was gonna be stopped.


Thanks for the info Glen. I doubt I can get our Fox down to 3100 with my fat ass in it. I will say I have no idea what CMC17 weighs. Since we did not finish high enough to have to weigh after a race we only weighed when everyone did. Everytime we weighed the car was heaver than the time before even though I have been removing weight all year.

If we get to go down to 3100 I know that is going to scare the $hit out of all you GM guys! I'm sure that is all we needed to win every race.

JJ

[michaelmosty]

Jerry, "IF" the fox goes down to 3100 you'll be at the minimum weight also. I'll touch base with you and we can fo over the car and get every little thing out of it to get her down to weight.
I thought I had mine super low and was still able to get out about 35 lbs. of extra shit last year.

[mitchntx]

I'm telling you guys that an extra 20HP only makes a difference on very long straights. And I can count the number of very long straights we run at on Bryan's hand with fingers left over.

I think Al was surprised he was unable to just "walk the field" when he pulled his restrictor at ECR. CONSERVATIVELY, he was 260/300 and mine is 247/302. No one saw me or him running away with anything this year, did you?

At this weight and at this level of grip, it's just not a significant enough change to make a difference in the big picture.

No need to panic and think major changes have to take place, regardless of the group you run with.