Why 888's?

[ShadowBolt]

I read this on the National site.

http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=24045

A NASA official said it was a "class decision"? Is there anything we can do to keep the RA1 as our spec tire?


JJ

[AI#97]

RA1's aren't going to be made anymore... you don't have a choice at this point and given Toyo is lining the pockets of Nasa owners, I mean sponsoring our series, we will have to run what they tell us.

However, I could be wrong about this but regionally, I think we can collectively run what we want as long as we have buy in. so let's say Hoosier comes knocking on our door and says "here is a better program than toyo"....we could do it, but would have to comply at other region's events and nationals. I don't see that happening since they are more expensive and don't last long but reading the input from the other series about the Triple 8's tells me we ain't going to like them much.

[michaelmosty]

Maybe we have gotten spoiled w/ the RA1 and its characteristics.
My guess is the 888 will last a crap-load longer than a Hoosier and be cheaper at the same time.
It has been said before but who cares how the tire acts b/c we are all going to be having the same issues. I don't think Toyo would produce a tire that is scheduled to replace the RA1 and have it be a piece of crap. I'm sure it will be different but I think everyone is jumping to conclusions.

When Frank ran these tires at the enduro and during certain practice sessions did he complain about their performance? Sorry to put you on the spot Frank. :)

[michaelmosty]

Here is a post from Mike Plum (CA) from the National CMC site:

"I thought I would give you my first impression of the R888. I drove 5 hours of the 25 hours on RA1s and 2.5 hours on R888s. The car was an FFR Cobra so take all my commentary with a grain of salt. I'm certain the tire performance will vary on our heavier cars.

The RA1s started out lightly shaved and I ran them on a combination of dry and moist track. The R888s were virgin full threads and my track time was dry.

My first lap impression was WOW these things are hooking up. This great feeling lasted for 5 laps or so and I put in my best lap times of the event. After this handful of laps the tire dropped off a little bit and felt better than or equal to the RA1s. Over the next 60 or so laps the R888s stayed absolutely consistent. The wear after 2.5 hours was minimal, the things look like they would last a season, at least on an FFR car.

I walked away with the notion that the tires are consistent, they wear well and are at least at good as the RA1s. It appears a person could get away with starting on full tread tires, but I think a heat cycle or two may be beneficial. Being a cheap SOB, that's how I'm going to approach the situation."

[AI#97]

Here is a post from Mike Plum (CA) from the National CMC site:

"I thought I would give you my first impression of the R888. I drove 5 hours of the 25 hours on RA1s and 2.5 hours on R888s. The car was an FFR Cobra so take all my commentary with a grain of salt. I'm certain the tire performance will vary on our heavier cars.

The RA1s started out lightly shaved and I ran them on a combination of dry and moist track. The R888s were virgin full threads and my track time was dry.

My first lap impression was WOW these things are hooking up. This great feeling lasted for 5 laps or so and I put in my best lap times of the event. After this handful of laps the tire dropped off a little bit and felt better than or equal to the RA1s. Over the next 60 or so laps the R888s stayed absolutely consistent. The wear after 2.5 hours was minimal, the things look like they would last a season, at least on an FFR car.

I walked away with the notion that the tires are consistent, they wear well and are at least at good as the RA1s. It appears a person could get away with starting on full tread tires, but I think a heat cycle or two may be beneficial. Being a cheap SOB, that's how I'm going to approach the situation."

If he would post laptimes instead of his "butt meter" I would be happier to read his write up. I have always thought my "butt meter" was pretty accurate but have found it was incorrect by a wide margin! Laptimes never lie but my meter has fooled me in the past.

There is so much conflicting information floating around the amateur ranks on the R888's that I really don't trust any of it. The only thing I have heard and would put any stock in is that the World Challenge teams don't like the new tires. Given they have the budgets to test and complain about stuff using real data, I would have to trust their input/output on the tires. What I have "heard" is that they are up to 1.5 seconds a lap slower on the same setup. Yes, setups can be changed but after hearing Micheal's account of talking to a Toyo rep about tire pressures I tend to wonder if the reps have ANY idea of what they are talking about....? :?

[AI#97]

More info from nasaforums in the AI section:

From a 944 spec driver:

We in 944 spec have been on the R888 for some time now. We had been on the RA-1 for years.

Our experience is as follows.
Tire pressures... hot pressures seem to be 2-4 lbs higher than RA-1. This was arrived at by trying a number of differnt pressure ranges from 32 hot to 48 hot. However 40-42 seems to be about right. I suggest starting there and then playing around till you see what works best.

The big thing is that the R888 does not like to be slid around the the track like the RA-1. We could slide the RA-1 with abandon and the tire would never go away. May 1 corner later grip was restored to normal and we kept on going. This mean in some places we would just slide the car for best lap times.

That does not work on the R888. If you slide the tire it will take a long time to recover and possibly not for the rest of the session. If you keep the tire sticking then it will be fine the duration of a race and will give you good lap times. Right now the R888 is tick slower than the RA-1, but every event the gap drops as drivers learn to adapt their style to the R888. I believe once set-up start changing in earnest overall times will be improved just slightly.

For us the biggest concern is life. We have good history on the RA-1, but there is no good information on the R888. Some guys have say they have given up in short order, but it is hard to know if it was caused by bad pressres or overdriving the tires.


And more from another post:
This was posted on AIM site. Infineon Raceway.
____________________________________
There are a multitude of questions being asked about the difference between the RA-1 and the new R-888.

Our company was the very first company to sell the RA-1 in the U.S.A.back in 1992. In fact we were the company that originally tested a prototype RA-1 that allowed TOYO the feedback necessary to commit the RA-1 to the USA market. Thus, we have a bit of experience with the RA-1 tire!

The greatest difference between the RA-1 and the R-888 is the tires construction. The R-888 is of an all new design both in tread and construction.

The most obvious difference being the tread pattern and molded tread depth. The R-888 grooves are molded to 6/32nds of an inch. Whereas the RA-1 grooves are staggard with the inner grooves at 8/32nds of an inch and the outer most grooves at 6/32nds. Additionally the R-888 has less and larger tread blocks to promote a quicker steering response and better mid-corner grip.

It should be noted that shaving a R-888 due to the wider grooves will not ceate a 'slick tire' as in the case of shaving a RA-1 to below 4/32nds. The R-888 when shaved to a low 2/32nds will not become a virtual slick tire but will continue to have wide rain grooves.

The wider grooves on the R-888 does enhance the wet weather performance of the tire and has proven superior in the wet than the RA-1.

To maximize the performance of the R-888 over the RA-1, on ALL race cares and especially Front wheel drive RACE cars and Spec Miata's: The camber, toe, caster tire pressure and even the driving technique must be modified.

The R-888 with the stiffer sidewall and softer undertread construction requires significantly less initial camber settings and higher pressure.

By design the R-888 promotes higher levels of grip under braking and at mid-corner.

So, if you simply switch a RA-1 for a R-888 without changing your chassis set-up please don't expect your car to rotate in at mid-corner without taking camber out of the rear suspension settings.

Furthermore, less camber in the front will aid turn-in and an increase in starting and operating pressure of the R-888 over the RA-1 will aid in overall traction and increase tire life.

[cobra132]

I have worn out 2 sets of R888's. Both were heat cycled on full tread prior to use. I used the same tire pressures as the RA1, 38-40 lbs hot. I had to start out 1 - 2 lbs lower when cold with the 888. I found the grip to be about the same through the first 2/3 of tread depth. I posted slightly faster lap times at TWS on 888's compared to RA1s. Grip began to suffer at 1/3 tread depth and below and when the R888 is slick, it is gone. Cord exposed very quickly after the tread was worn off and they have very little grip when slick. Thats my limited experience. I plan to not shave these tires. FMR

[marshall_mosty]

Just got off the phone with Candice at Toyo (Cali office) and she confirmed the following:

1. Max Tire Temp: 250F
2. No published "ideal" hot temp.
3. Tire Pressure: High 30's to Low 40's
4. Tire does NOT need to be heat cycled prior to use
5. Compound is the same down to the cords. This is different to the RA1 which had a softer outer rubber and hard carcass. According to Toyo, they should be consistant down to the cords.

If anyone wants to talk to Toyo about the R888, call (800) 678-3250 10a-7p CST and dial exention 490 (Customer Relations). There are two tire engineers there that are familiar with the R888 tires. However I did not speak to them directly.

[ShadowBolt]

Just got off the phone with Candice at Toyo (Cali office)
5. Compound is the same down to the cords. This is different to the RA1 which had a softer outer rubber and hard carcass. According to Toyo, they should be consistant down to the cords.

If this is true how does JB's "thin to win" deal work?


JJ

[mitchntx]

Just got off the phone with Candice at Toyo (Cali office)
5. Compound is the same down to the cords. This is different to the RA1 which had a softer outer rubber and hard carcass. According to Toyo, they should be consistant down to the cords.

If this is true how does JB's "thin to spin" deal work?


JJ

Typo maybe?

[michaelmosty]

I have always thought the RA1's felt terrible at the very end of their lives.
At TWS last year I put two new tires on the front and they had WAY much more grip than the rears. It allowed me to show off my mad drifting skillz. 8)

[jeffburch]

:D

jb

[jeffburch]

Whomever gets their car dialed in on the new tire 1st, wins.
Goodluck to all you procrastinators.
See ya at the banquet :P

jb

[David Love AI27]

I have always thought the RA1's felt terrible at the very end of their lives.
At TWS last year I put two new tires on the front and they had WAY much more grip than the rears. It allowed me to show off my mad drifting skillz. 8)

New as in full tread or new as in shaved???

I was 2 seconds slower in full over shaved

[Al Fernandez]

I can attest that keeping up with James (who was on RA1s) at the beginning of the sessions was MUCH easier than at end. I think the 888s go off substantially more than the RA1s. At least driving them the same way they do.

I will say this for our CMC brethren: I switchted to 17s and 888s. I expected the car to be more lose based on feedback from other regions. I added an 1/8" spacer to the front to offset. The car felt great; no change change to the balance. It does feel a bit quicker to react to input. I will also say it doesnt feel any "grippier", particularly after the 3rd or so lap.