What tire does everyone plan to run the rest of the year?

[michaelmosty]

Like the title says, what tire do y'all plan to run for the rest of 09?

I have a new set of 888's just waiting and I could squeeze 1 more event out of my RA1's before they are used up. I have tires for TWS, I am just not sure what direction I will go after TWS.

If everyone plans to run their 888's then I will do the same but I don't want to be leaving anything on the table if others plan to run RA1's.

[mitchntx]

RA1s like I have been planning since this time LAST year when it was legal.

I have now turned my potential RA1 buyer off and pissed off AJ at PST over R888s. If this changes A-FUCKING-GAIN, I'm done.

I'm not gonna play ring around the tires any more.

[jeffburch]

MM,
Doesn't matter really. Does it?
Might as well present the CMC trophy now.
If you have the fast tires and they're legal run the damn things.
jb

[michaelmosty]

What if the TX region sticks with the 888's?
This was the plan as of two days ago and things were fine. Looking at just the TX region, how many people did this announcement yesterday benefit?

[Todd Covini]

1 - Mitch

[GlennCMC70]

2 - Glenn

and i have a set of R888's to run if i need to.
so do we want to require the top 5 in CMC points to run the R888 only?

i'm willing to man up.

[mitchntx]

1 - Mitch

Define benefit ...

Micheal is looking for on track advantage, you know the $.50 piece of pewter and line in the signature.

It saves me $2000 ... throwing away $1000 worth of tires and having to replace them with a $1000 set to continue.

[Wirtz]

I wish the plan had been stuck to and everyone was on the same thing.

To me the main question needs to be; are the RA1s still being made or not. If they are, things are really messy; folks know them, they are cheaper, and the seem to last longer. I don't really care what is thought of as faster, as long as everyone is on the same thing, it does not matter. So why the change to r888 anyway.

Assuming the RA1 is out of production, we should have stuck to the plan and had the r888's as the tire going forward.

What do folks do for Nats this year? They will take what they think is the best tire for sure. So do you buy a set or two of RA1s right at the end of the season knowing they will not be used up or allowed in 2010 now?

After these run arounds on the tires, what are the odds that this change is in fact the real change?

[jeffburch]

Yup,
Gonna run Nats?
You better get some new ones right now and save for it.
This is at the risk tho that the wizards in Richmond won't disallow them for the big race in the interim LOL!
jb

[Todd Covini]

RA1's will be available 'til year end.
RA1's and 888's will be run at Nationals.
I say we just stick to the status quo and run RA1's if they work best and are still available.
Folks can use up their 888's or work them into rotation as they need to.
Who knows, maybe the fastest setup is a hybrid of both tires...

[AllZWay]

Still unsure... but I am leaning to buying a new set of RA1's.

As long as RA1's are in the field, I don't think there is much of an option.

[Alien]

I think Jerry just changed his order to RA1s.

I'm stuck (read: I'm cheap) with the 888's I bought at the start of this season. Wasn't planning on buying my next set of tires (whatever that may be) until the 5th or 6th event.

Hmm.. seems to me, the CMC2 guys are favoring using RA1s and the CMC guys are favorings R888s?

favoring as in leaning towards, not as in actually liking the 888s.

[AI#97]

here's an idea....regionally, let's ALL run AIX and have the largest AIX field in history! 30+ cars!!!

figured I would throw some more stupid ideas out there with all the silliness lately.

I am likely going to run my R888's. We will "probably" have to run them next year and now is as good a time as any to figure them out....and save the multiple sets of "thin to win" RA1's sitting in my garage/attic either for nationals or rebuilding my retirement fund in August! ;)

[mitchntx]

I don't know who was running what at Cresson, but I'm looking at lap times on the Race 3 and race 4 print outs. I don't have a scanner, so ...

#9 - on RA1s
Race 3 - *1:25.253 - L10
Race 4 - *1:25.278 - L10
*Fastest laps

#28 - on ????
Race 3 - 1:24.946 - L14 -- *1:24.755 - L5
Race 4 - 1:25.884 - L11 -- *1:24.463 - L5
*Fastest lap

#17 - on ????
Race 3 - *1:25.946 - L13
Race 4 - *1:25.230 - L10
*Fastest lap

#5 - on ????
Race 3 - 1:25.870 - L12 -- *1:24.956 - L7
Race 4 - *1:25.667 - L10

Jerry, Al, James ... what were you guys running on Sunday?

[GlennCMC70]

from what i'm gathering on the net, the RA1's will be a Nitto brand tire in the near future.

[JJordan]

# 17 had RA1s

[michaelmosty]

1 - Mitch

Define benefit ...

Micheal is looking for on track advantage, you know the $.50 piece of pewter and line in the signature.Is that so freakin wrong to want to be fast on track?
I'm all for running the 888's, I just don't want to if everyone else is going to run the RA1's.

It saves me $2000 ... throwing away $1000 worth of tires and having to replace them with a $1000 set to continue.
I forgot that it was all about what is going to benefit Mitch the most, my apologies.

If everyone agrees to run the 888's they have already purchased it saves other people the idea of buying extra RA1's to run for the remainder of the year. I was kindov thinking about the benefit of the entire region. :roll:

[AllZWay]

I ran 888's all weekend except for qual2. I flat spotted one in qual and I had planned to run them and had to run the 888 for R3 and R4 instead.

I don't mind anyone running either tire they have...this a nasa fiasco....not a racer one.

I never saw r4 laptimes....I did find a decent air pressure that I was happy with. :)

[mitchntx]

If everyone agrees to run the 888's they have already purchased it saves other people the idea of buying extra RA1's to run for the remainder of the year. I was kindov thinking about the benefit of the entire region. :roll:

Then agree ... do it ... and live with it. I can certainly see when it's all about Micheal being 4th instead of second, that takes a huge precedent over Mitch pissing away three grand. :roll: right back at you.

Funny how the wink-wink, nod-nod deal in January was unfair and now in April, wink-wink, nod-nod is the way to go ... so which is it, girls?

Did you even think to look at the lap times I posted?

I'm pretty sure that Al and James were on R888s for at least one of those sessions. I don't see this HUGE advantage you are whining about, Michael.

[Jeremy Gunter]

I'm pretty sure that Al and James were on R888s for at least one of those sessions. I don't see this HUGE advantage...

From the conversation at Cresson and somewhere in these boards you tested one... at about 1 second... not to mention the fall off you get after a short period of time...
TWS, Heat, Track temps, tire temps..... hmmmmmmmm...
Screw it, I'm staying with 888's...

[jeffburch]

here's an idea....regionally, let's ALL run AIX and have the largest AIX field in history! 30+ cars!!!


:idea:
jb

[mitchntx]

here's an idea....regionally, let's ALL run AIX and have the largest AIX field in history! 30+ cars!!!


Being as a huge deal is being made about, then that is exactly what I'm doing if I decide to continue.

It's not worth the riff that is being generated in the group.

[AllZWay]

here's an idea....regionally, let's ALL run AIX and have the largest AIX field in history! 30+ cars!!!

It's not worth the riff that is being generated in the group.

People just need to direct their anger towards Nasa...not each other.

I am not mad at anyone but Nasa.

[AI#97]

Being as a huge deal is being made about, then that is exactly what I'm doing if I decide to continue.

It's not worth the riff that is being generated in the group.

Mitch, as much as we all like hanging out and racing with each other, what we are doing at the end of the day IS racing! I don't see a riff starting as much as there is general complaint on both sides that happens to be each racer looking for their advantage. None of this is personal and yeah, all anger should be focused at NASA or Toyo. Neither has shown a lot of leadership in this situation in providing a RACE READY tire or a RACE READY set of rules to benefit the racers. Something else is in play here....it may be that Toyo is trying to "save face" after releasing a problem product. It may be something entirely different especially with Hoosier sticking their foot in the door late last year saying "We are still here!".

Obviously, NOTHING we have said or done has ever been able to steer the barge that is NASA National and as much as it sucks, maybe we just need to take these "obstacles" in stride and move on. I know 90% of the frustration I have had over the years was answered by a big "FU", so it did nothing for me to get riled up over it....and sometimes alienated some of my fellow racers.

As with any rule change, it benefits some, and hurts others. Find what works for you and run with it.

Next....

[BryanL]

Only thing I have done since Cresson is pull the car out and take off all my decals so I may just run DE events for the rest of the year.

Though I would like to know what tire we will be running next year so I can have my A game ready.

However looking at the laptimes it looks like the fastest lap in 2 was on 888's. JP also ran under 25 on lap 14 so maybe they don't go away as much as we think? How much of a setup change do they need?

I ran a new set of 888's at Cresson. I am not a good example to use with my brake issue and all the changes my car has been through. Though I did run my fastest lap by almost 2 seconds on the last lap of R4 with a 26.0.

[jeffburch]

Well, don't look at this events times.
That track is no diffferent then the last time we were there.
The new tire is crap, period.
If they threw out the molds from the 1's they're dumb asses.
They made decisions regarding a new tire for profit.
Those old tires were perfect for our budget racing.
Why mess with what worked? Dunno.
Conundrum.
I'll continue on the 2 sets of 8's I have.
Don't care about bucks.
X anyone?
jb

[mitchntx]

Thanks for that Matt. You are right, this is all about NASA and Toyo.

Post Cresson, from what I've learned, when polled, all but 1 had no issue with a "gentlemen's agreement" about running either tire for 2009 in this region.

I was perfectly content to give away 12 tires to get 4 and continue on. In other words, I was willing to play the cards I was dealt and go along with the group ... I didn't like it, but in the end, what was I doing all this for.

All I've ever asked for is a consistent set of rules. So, I expect similar consideration when a "gentlemen's agreement" about running only R888s is suggested.

I'm recipricating the sentiment and consideration given me. Call it Karma ...

It's not much fun, now that all this internet BS has bubbled to the surface. But this really is just the internet. Face to face would these same words be said?

I never asked NASA or Toyo for anything. But it certainly has shifted to appear that they are catering to me and to me alone.

Believe what you will ... I really don't care. Bridges are smoldering ...

[rpoz27]

X anyone?

Been plannin' on it since Cresson for several reasons.

[BryanL]

X is an interesting idea. What I like about it is spreading out the Toyo bucks. We have plenty of racers to get 5 in each class and still allow the frontrunners to run for points.

I like the idea of pulling my plate at TWS- 304/325 vs 258/294.

Mason-I would certainly tell the Keystone Cowboy to put that fuel filter where the sun doesn't shine! Of course I would be telling him to do that to Mitch :P

I swear the only reason I have gotten faster on the track is because of the internet. I'm already feeling a 57 or 58 at TWS. Though someone remind me which direction is faster? Not that I won't end up facing the wrong way or anything.

[mitchntx]

Well, don't look at this events times.


I think you have to, Jeff. Fastest laps were set on R888s mid-race and similar laptimes were seen at the end of the races.

And lap times and race results are really and truly the bottom line, aren't they?

[jeffburch]

Well, don't look at this events times.


I think you have to, Jeff. Fastest laps were set on R888s mid-race and similar laptimes were seen at the end of the races.

And lap times and race results are really and truly the bottom line, aren't they?

There you have it.
That fixes everything,
The 8's are the fastest tire of the two.
I stand corrected.
Thanks,
jb

[Todd Covini]

Sorta removes the whole...."I can't win on 888's" argument when someone actually does it, no?

I agree with Mitch...gotta look at any track on any day.
If on a given day all the RA1s were up front and all the 888's were at the rear, well then...

We can adapt...this isn't the end of the world.

[michaelmosty]

If everyone agrees to run the 888's they have already purchased it saves other people the idea of buying extra RA1's to run for the remainder of the year. I was kindov thinking about the benefit of the entire region. :roll:

Then agree ... do it ... and live with it. I can certainly see when it's all about Micheal being 4th instead of second, that takes a huge precedent over Mitch pissing away three grand. :roll: right back at you.

Funny how the wink-wink, nod-nod deal in January was unfair and now in April, wink-wink, nod-nod is the way to go ... so which is it, girls?

Did you even think to look at the lap times I posted?

I'm pretty sure that Al and James were on R888s for at least one of those sessions. I don't see this HUGE advantage you are whining about, Michael.
I didn't mean for this to get ugly, girls. :lol:

"Then agree...do it... and live with it." That is why I started this thread, to try and figure a way everyone can be on the same page and not go out and spend more $$.

Please elaborate on me being 2nd instead of 4th, I'm not sure where you are going with this and why this statement is more important than you pissing away 3 grand.
So you are telling me you bought up 3 grand worth of used RA1's to run 2009 with?

I guess I don't remember what the wink-wink, nod-nod deal was. In January everyone knew we were going to run RA1's for the beginning of the year.

The HUGE advantage I am talking about is that I have yet to hear a single driver say the 888 is a better tire. I have not even heard anyone say it is an equal tire.
You yourself said the 888 was 1 second slower.

Please call me if I have done something to ruffle your feathers. I am upset with how NASA and Toyo have handled this entire situation and just want the best resolution for everyone.
972-897-1424 (cell)

[ShadowBolt]

I bought and plan to run RA1's the balance of the season. If Mitch wants to run AIX and the other CMC2 drivers don't want me running mine in 2 then I will run with Mitch in AIX. I don't care if we all run together in AIX. I can't outrun either one of the Jeff's, Glen, Michael, Rob, Eric, Al or Proctor no matter what tire I run and even with CMC2 power. Guys I just want to race! I bought the RA1's because I have some idea how to run them and I assumed everyone would want to run them the balance of this year. I ordered a smaller size RA1 anyway. I'm giving up almost an inch in tire width. Please lets don't all get pissed at each other. Lets just show up and have a good time. I'm fine with running AIX for points and blowing off CMC2 points for the rest of the year. I just want to go fast door to door. I don't care about the piece of plastic.

JJ

[David Love AI27]

Please lets don't all get pissed at each other. Lets just show up and have a good time. I'm fine with running AIX for points and blowing off CMC2 points for the rest of the year. I just want to go fast door to door. I don't care about the piece of plastic.

JJ

AMEN brother

[mitchntx]

"Then agree...do it... and live with it." That is why I started this thread, to try and figure a way everyone can be on the same page and not go out and spend more $$.


I don't want ANYONE to go out and spend more money.




Please elaborate on me being 2nd instead of 4th, I'm not sure where you are going with this and why this statement is more important than you pissing away 3 grand.
So you are telling me you bought up 3 grand worth of used RA1's to run 2009 with?



2nd instead of 4th was a real world illustration of the R888 being slower and the end result of you being on the 8s and me being on the 1s

Pissing away $3K was the sum of the value of the 12 RA1s I currently have that would be useless and the cost of replacing them with 4 R888s. It would be the grand total of the checks I've written in order to go racing.

Putting the 2 in the same paragraph was meant to uncover what each of us value and if that value is equal or not.




I guess I don't remember what the wink-wink, nod-nod deal was. In January everyone knew we were going to run RA1's for the beginning of the year.


The wink-wink, nod-nod was a regional deal, discussed at Eagle's Canyon under Jeremiah's awning. Basically, the directors didn't care which tire we ran in 09. Use up our existing inventory of RA1s. BUT ... don't go buy any more RA1s and all bets are off if it's posted on the internet.



The HUGE advantage I am talking about is that I have yet to hear a single driver say the 888 is a better tire. I have not even heard anyone say it is an equal tire.
You yourself said the 888 was 1 second slower.


If you simply replace the RA1s with R888s, then yes, I think the 1s will be faster. That was my discovery after a whopping 8 laps of testing.

But I do think the R888s have potential ... as a racer, we're going to have to figure out what to do to make that happen. Darron posted some invaluable information that will send you in the right direction.

First and formost is tire pressures. We all know and realize the R888 needs at least 10psi more pressure. On an RA1, 1 psi was eaqual to about 10lbs of effective spring rate. It's the reason why we would make 1/2 psi or 1 psi pressure changes in one tire.

So if 1 psi equals 10lbs and the R888 needs 10 more psi, thats 100lbs of spring rate! That is HUGE! Shocks will have to be tweaked, sway bars will have to be changed and maybe even springs.

The other issue is wear. Do a little homework and the 944 guys are saying that they just can't slide their car around like they could with the RA1 and keep the tire under them. It falls off. So the driver is gonna have to figure out how to drive the tire.



I have not even heard anyone say it is an equal tire.


AJ made a very good point ... if the R888 sucks as bad as we are all believing, why are the "Pro Series" guys crying this loud?

In this case, perception equals reality. Our world is very small. So it wouldn't be prudent to base an overall conclusion based upon this small of a data pool.

If the 8s are THE tire moving forward, then the R&D needs to start yesterday. So far, all I've read from this group is that they suck. OK ... what'll make them better?

[mitchntx]

Tell you guys what i'll do ...

I have 3 sets of 275/40-17 RA1s ...

1 set of 4/32 scuffs
1 set with about 70% remaining
1 set of 20% remaining

I'll trade heads up for your same size R888s.

I'll do the R&D and share what I find

[Todd Covini]

Tell you guys what i'll do ...

I have 3 sets of 275/40-17 RA1s ...

1 set of 4/32 scuffs
1 set with about 70% remaining
1 set of 20% remaining

I'll trade heads up for your same size R888s.

I'll do the R&D and share what I find

That's a pretty stand-up thing to do and a nice offer!

[Todd Covini]

The wink-wink, nod-nod was a regional deal, discussed at Eagle's Canyon under Jeremiah's awning. Basically, the directors didn't care which tire we ran in 09. Use up our existing inventory of RA1s. BUT ... don't go buy any more RA1s and all bets are off if it's posted on the internet.


3 problems with this that nullify things:
1) people went out and bought RA1's and it's on the internet.
2) not everyone was "under the awning" and knew about it
3) The most important one, (I wasn't there), but the assumption at that time was probably that the 888's were a much faster tire. So out of convenience, an exception was discussed and that if folks wanted to use the slower tire they had vs. buy new ones, have at it. It would be the same thing if someone said I'd like to use up my 175/75/14 tires before purchasing 255/50/16's...it may be considered.

The world changed when the RA1's were perceived to be the far superior tire (yet TBD).

[Todd Covini]

Grandpa Joe: Mr. Wonka?

Willy Wonka: [pointedly ignoring them] I am extraordinarily busy, sir.

Grandpa Joe: [tentatively] I just wanted to ask about the chocolate - Uh, the lifetime supply of chocolate... for Charlie. When does he get it?
Willy Wonka: He doesn't.

Grandpa Joe: Why not?

Willy Wonka: Because he broke the rules.

Grandpa Joe: What rules? We didn't see any rules. Did we, Charlie?

Willy Wonka: [springs up from his chair, angrily] Wrong, sir! Wrong! Under section 37B of the contract signed by him, it states quite clearly that all offers shall become null and void if - and you can read it for yourself in this photostatic copy
[grabs a magnifying glass and reads]

Willy Wonka: - "I, the undersigned, shall forfeit all rights, privileges, and licenses herein and herein contained," et cetera, et cetera..."Fax mentis incendium gloria cultum," et cetera, et cetera..."Memo bis punitor delicatum!"
[slams the magnifying glass down, shouts]

Willy Wonka: It's all there, black and white, clear as crystal! You stole fizzy lifting drinks. You bumped into the ceiling which now has to be washed and sterilized, so you get *NOTHING*! You lose! Good day sir!

Grandpa Joe: [shocked] You're a crook. You're a cheat and a swindler! That's what you are!
[angrily]

Grandpa Joe: How could you do a thing like this, build up a little boy's hopes and then smash all his dreams to pieces? You're an inhuman monster!

Willy Wonka: [shouts even louder] I said "Good day!"

[AI#97]

what'll make them better?

I have asked the same of JWL on the national AI board. They keep saying there is data out there that shows the R888 to be an equal tire. I think he's full of shit so I called him out on it. Someone is providing data to NASA and I want to know who. Is it usable data? Is it from some that got every last 10th out of the RA1's and optimized their setup? Are they a consistant enough driver to provide reliable results? was it an AI/CMC car?

From what Grizwold and one other response have shown....MIATAS are providing tire info for OUR series....? :shock: If that truly is the case, no wonder we are headed in the wrong direction but I am waiting for the REAL answer from JWL. I sent him all my findings earlier in the week and have yet to hear back from him.

I posted my general findings in my two weekends of testing and have offered to do more testing if Toyo foots the bill for tires.

As for WC not bitching...they operate differently than we do. They have tons of money to spend on R&D as well as the fact that if they can figure it out before the next guy, they have an advantage....that's racing. Best I can tell they hate the tires. I just wish I could get my hands on the lap times to review from race start, mid race and finish to see if they are able to manage the heat issues.

[AI#97]

The world changed when the RA1's were perceived to be the far superior tire (yet TBD).

Todd, that has already been readily proven and the horse was shot dead. When WC teams with $100k's can't figure out how to go faster on the R888's, I know I won't be able to figure it out. Only thing I think I can do to make them faster than my old combo is to pull 300lbs out of the car at this point and try running super light to combat the heat.

[michaelmosty]

Only thing I think I can do to make them faster than my old combo is to pull 300lbs out of the car at this point and try running super light to combat the heat.
Holy crap, was Marshall on the right track?
He started pulling every wire, nut, and bolt out of his car a couple of years ago and got it down to 2750. I thought he was smoking something but maybe he had insider information? :lol:

[marshall_mosty]

Holy crap, was Marshall on the right track?
He started pulling every wire, nut, and bolt out of his car a couple of years ago and got it down to 2750. I thought he was smoking something but maybe he had insider information? :lol:Obama gave me the inside scoop. Then George W. put a "sneaky pete" system in the car during the last dyno. Now I'm doing an opposite Jenny Craig to gain 150lbs. Ho Hum. :roll:

The best I was ever able to do was 2760 post race at the enduro... but I think the scales were about 40 lbs light. We'll find out in a few weeks.

310/312, so I need 2945 to be legal. 2760+35 (splitter rebuild and new wing mounts)+150 (ballast) = 2945... it's gonna be close. Thankfully Michael and I are both around 170, so the 180 lb driver rule in the enduro will help out a tad.

[ShadowBolt]

Anyone want to bet that the 888 NEVER becomes the AI or CMC spec tire? Nothing would supprise me at the moment.


JJ

[AllZWay]

Anyone want to bet that the 888 NEVER becomes the AI or CMC spec tire? Nothing would supprise me at the moment.


JJ

At this point....this is what scares me the most.

Do you get stuck with 888's or RA1's at the end of the year?

[AI#97]

Anyone want to bet that the 888 NEVER becomes the AI or CMC spec tire? Nothing would supprise me at the moment.


JJ

After just having learned that all our "test" data being shoved down our throat is from a couple of Hondas... and having Flaherty and JWL trying to hurt my feelings a little bit... Will you guys take another racer in X?

Gunter, my 888's are for sale and will be off the rims this weekend. Hoosier is getting a call on Monday. If I am going to fuck around reworking my entire car setup to drive on a new tire, it is going to result in going faster so it might as well be done with hoosiers or maybe even BFG's... Will give me a reason to stop talking shit and finally build that turbo motor I have always wanted.

[David Love AI27]

Anyone want to bet that the 888 NEVER becomes the AI or CMC spec tire? Nothing would supprise me at the moment.


JJ

After just having learned that all our "test" data being shoved down our throat is from a couple of Hondas... and having Flaherty and JWL trying to hurt my feelings a little bit... Will you guys take another racer in X?

Gunter, my 888's are for sale and will be off the rims this weekend. Hoosier is getting a call on Monday. If I am going to fuck around reworking my entire car setup to drive on a new tire, it is going to result in going faster so it might as well be done with hoosiers or maybe even BFG's... Will give me a reason to stop talking shit and finally build that turbo motor I have always wanted.

I signed up for the hoosier program last year and forgot the details... I have enough RA1s to finish the season in AI, but if the car count is not there I'm gonna run X...

[David Love AI27]

ok... min of three cars winner gets two tires x two races = 4 tires per weekend... w/5 cars second place gets 1 tire = a total of 6 tires per weekend with 5 starters... if managed correctly all five cars could share the wealth and everyone would have a new set of tires every 4 events with a full set extra... I mean honestly, Matt, whatcha gonna do with 4 sets of Hoosiers?

do the math 6 per weekend time 4 events is 24 tires :shock:

[AllZWay]

Now what.....
from the Nasaforum.

Guys,
No one told me anything, I'm just learning about this right now as I was out of town.
Look, NASA told us the first 2 races are allowed on RA1's.
That's it, since no one contacted me about this I will say that that's the CMC rule.
Our series does not have mid-year changes and doing this is just not right.
Our spec tire is the R888, thats it..we won't run on 2 different tires.
So our tire is the R888, dont show up with anything else at the nationals either.
This is final.
_________________
Tony Guaglione
CMC National Director
CMC2 #55
03 Mustang GT

[cjlmlml]

ee

[Todd Covini]

Uh oh...now come the series decisions. Stay tuned....we'll get the low-down...

[evarner]

This is final.
_________________
Tony Guaglione

I have a feeling he's going to eat those words.

[Chuck]

WOW!

This is the BEST!

Do I take the RA1's off the wheels or not? With so little notice on what is the spec tire to run, we must now be expected to be able to mount/balance at the track. Perhaps it will change from morning to afternoon sessions!

Chuck
CMC#14

[Todd Covini]

This is final.
_________________
Tony Guaglione

I have a feeling he's going to eat those words.

I think so too.

[Alien]

Do I take the RA1's off the wheels or not?
Take the RA1's off the left side of the car and replace wik the R888s. That way no matter what the final decision is, you're only half wrong.

[AI#97]

ee

I just spewed coke all over my desk!!! Awesome!!!


David, I WOULD spread the wealth and sell the tires at 50% of retail. Issue would be if you ran the same size tire or not. My understanding is I can only receive what I originally purchase to start the program. If I do that, it is going to be 275/40/17's.

[AI#97]

This is final.
_________________
Tony Guaglione

I have a feeling he's going to eat those words.


Yeah, that was already thrown at JWL on the National forum...and there was also a question about a JWL statement from just 2 or 3 weeks ago when we were questioning some statements about running RA1's for a few more events (regional schedule mis-que).

Overall, this has got to be one of the most embarrassing moments for NASA since it began. Too funny really when even the great Tony G. isn't in the loop!!! LOL!

I would have to beg the question of how many people who don't frequent the forums (I should follow their lead) don't even know about this yet?!! :shock:

[David Love AI27]

This is final.
_________________
Tony Guaglione

I have a feeling he's going to eat those words.


Yeah, that was already thrown at JWL on the National forum...and there was also a question about a JWL statement from just 2 or 3 weeks ago when we were questioning some statements about running RA1's for a few more events (regional schedule mis-que).

Overall, this has got to be one of the most embarrassing moments for NASA since it began. Too funny really when even the great Tony G. isn't in the loop!!! LOL!

I would have to beg the question of how many people who don't frequent the forums (I should follow their lead) don't even know about this yet?!! :shock:

Not on any other boards... depend on you to pass on the latest...

[ShadowBolt]

Anyone want to bet that the 888 NEVER becomes the AI or CMC spec tire? Nothing would supprise me at the moment.


JJ

At this point....this is what scares me the most.

Do you get stuck with 888's or RA1's at the end of the year?

James,

I did what I always do and put off ordering any tires until day before yesterday. My old RA1's were gone. They were put on the car at Hallett last year. Since I was told about the new RA1 rule I bought 6. That usually gets me though 5-6 race weekends. I will have to purchase another set prior to the 2010 season and the tires I just bought should be about gone. You have nothing to worry about since you can kick my ass even with me on RA's and you on triple eights every time.


JJ

[ShadowBolt]

Now what.....
from the Nasaforum.

This is final.
_________________
Tony Guaglione
CMC National Director
CMC2 #55
03 Mustang GT

No Tony is wrong. I had Glenn call JWL and he said RA1's were a go. Since I had no tires for TWS I ordered six. If Tony is going to change the rules now he (or NASA) can purchase my new six.

I had to have tires
Time was running out
JWL said go for it

What else could I have done to cover my ass?


JJ

JJ

[AllZWay]

At this point....this is what scares me the most.

Do you get stuck with 888's or RA1's at the end of the year?

James,

I did what I always do and put off ordering any tires until day before yesterday. My old RA1's were gone. They were put on the car at Hallett last year. Since I was told about the new RA1 rule I bought 6 RA1's. That usually gets me though 5-6 race weekends. I will have to purchase another set prior to the 2010 season and the tires I just bought should be about gone. You have nothing to worry about since you can kick my ass even with me on RA's and you on triple eights every time.


JJ[/quote]

Jerry...don't count yourself short. You have that mustang handling darn well and was on my ass big time in one of those races.

This whole tire fiasco is almost just a comedy to watch at this point. :lol:

[AI#97]

This whole tire fiasco is almost just a comedy to watch at this point. :lol:

Yeah, just when you think the silliness couldn't get any more rediculous! Kachow!!! It gets worse!

Given the depth of racing experience in this region, has anyone EVER seen anything this wishy washy regarding tires in any other race series? Seriously....

[rpoz27]

This whole tire fiasco is almost just a comedy to watch at this point. :lol:

Yeah, just when you think the silliness couldn't get any more rediculous! Kachow!!! It gets worse!

Given the depth of racing experience in this region, has anyone EVER seen anything this wishy washy regarding tires in any other race series? Seriously....

Not in regard to tires (yet), but I've seen a lot of weird stuff in BMWCCA. And y'all weren't affected by the GTS kerfuffle late last year. Now that was a sideshow....

[jeffburch]

Maybe we should start a new thread.
Me and Rob have a good story about the day/night we stood in the tech line from 3-10pm at Cresson in '05.
Rob can get really fired up :lol:

jb

[ShadowBolt]

WOW!

This is the BEST!

Do I take the RA1's off the wheels or not? With so little notice on what is the spec tire to run, we must now be expected to be able to mount/balance at the track. Perhaps it will change from morning to afternoon sessions!

Chuck
CMC#14


Don't even think about it Chuck. Run the RA1's. The big cheif said it's okay.

JJ

[AI#97]

Maybe we should start a new thread.
Me and Rob have a good story about the day/night we stood in the tech line from 3-10pm at Cresson in '05.
Rob can get really fired up :lol:

jb

Yeah, I am TIRED of tire discussions....let's hear the tech madness!

[Rob Liebbe]

Do we really need to remind Clifton of that little incident? Really? I think I'm on his good side right now.

I do remember Burch saying something like - Allright Liebbe! I think I'm going to like you.


As for tires, my new R888's should be here on Monday. I also have a stash of thin to win RA1's (thanks to a timely sell off by a CMC! to CMC2 conversion). I also have enough wheels to mount them ALL up. So I'll be ready.

If both tires are legalized for the rest of the year, I will try to apply the proper tire to the proper track.

But really, this bullshit has got to stop.

[jeremiahkellam]

:D

[David Love AI27]

ee

I just spewed coke all over my desk!!! Awesome!!!


David, I WOULD spread the wealth and sell the tires at 50% of retail. Issue would be if you ran the same size tire or not. My understanding is I can only receive what I originally purchase to start the program. If I do that, it is going to be 275/40/17's.

if there is not enough cars you get NOTHING, NOTHING you hear??

NO SOUP FOR YOU!!!!!

so instead of sharing, you can keep 100% of NOTHING!!!

[BryanL]

Jeremiah-what happened to your post on the national site? I replied but it wasn't up anymore.
You haven't been around here long enough to learn that CMC isn't a democracy. Let's talk at TWS about how it is and how the decisions are made.
By the way-whats the story on your motor? Gonna make TWS?

[GlennCMC70]

been out of town myself for the last two days. i'm still catching up.
i'm pissed. :x

[BlueFirePony]

i'm pissed. :x
Lots of people in that boat and quite a few had at least an even disposition towards Toyo and NASA before this...myself included - and I am not out any $ 'cause I was not buying tires for another month due to the move.
I think either 1) a few loud squeaky wheels decided their wallets were more important that the rest of the racing community or 2) the tire has a longevity issue. #1 is probably the case.

[mitchntx]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZBdxvego1E

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[AI#97]

i'm pissed. :x
Lots of people in that boat and quite a few had at least an even disposition towards Toyo and NASA before this...myself included - and I am not out any $ 'cause I was not buying tires for another month due to the move.
I think either 1) a few loud squeaky wheels decided their wallets were more important that the rest of the racing community or 2) the tire has a longevity issue. #1 is probably the case.

And #2...the rumors of the top Spec Miata guys killing two sets a weekend are very plausible. was in a miata shop last night and saw tires that were shaved and maybe had 1.5 hours of track time on them. MIght have gotten one more 20 minute session but they were toast.

[ShadowBolt]

No one wants to take my bet that the 888 is dead and will go away into the night either replaced with another tire or we will go back to the RA1. I think the 888 is dead.


JJ

[AI#97]

No one wants to take my bet that the 888 is dead and will go away into the night either replaced with another tire or we will go back to the RA1. I think the 888 is dead.


JJ

Too much effort put forth already...I see it being revised as the 888 version 2.0 with a revised tread design and compound.

Hankook might be knocking on the door but considering Nitto/Toyo also sponsors other NASA series, they are pretty entrenched.

[Rob Liebbe]

I'd like to see us try the Nitto NT01 Competition Tire http://www.nittotire.com/#index%2Etire%2Ent01

I had a student with a late mobel Vette with Z06 suspension and these tires on it. I drove the car VERY hard and the tires were excellent.

Heck if Nitto and Toyo are business partners, then maybe we should open up the series to the RA1, R888, and NT01 for the rest of the season. Let everyone duke it out and see which one is preferred. Also, as I've stated before, I would be willing to provide my car and tire evaluation experience to do back to back comparison tests. Let Toyo provide tires and support and we'll go to TWS and have at it.

[AI#97]

I'd like to see us try the Nitto NT01 Competition Tire http://www.nittotire.com/#index%2Etire%2Ent01

I had a student with a late mobel Vette with Z06 suspension and these tires on it. I drove the car VERY hard and the tires were excellent.

Heck if Nitto and Toyo are business partners, then maybe we should open up the series to the RA1, R888, and NT01 for the rest of the season. Let everyone duke it out and see which one is preferred. Also, as I've stated before, I would be willing to provide my car and tire evaluation experience to do back to back comparison tests. Let Toyo provide tires and support and we'll go to TWS and have at it.

NT01's are RA1's with different tread pattern, same compound....and about $50 more per tire.

[Rob Liebbe]

No wonder they felt good.

So does that mean that the new NT05 is the same as the R888?

[AI#97]

No wonder they felt good.

So does that mean that the new NT05 is the same as the R888?

It would be interesting to find out but the 05 looks as though it has a lot of void area meaning less rubber on the road. I am also still unsure of what is causing the added heat in the 888... I would think the stiffer sidewall and the same compound would work better, not worse?!

[Rob Liebbe]

No wonder they felt good.

So does that mean that the new NT05 is the same as the R888?

It would be interesting to find out but the 05 looks as though it has a lot of void area meaning less rubber on the road. I am also still unsure of what is causing the added heat in the 888... I would think the stiffer sidewall and the same compound would work better, not worse?!

Larger tread blocks mean larger heat sinks holding the heat in.

Can we groove them?

[GlennCMC70]

[quote=Rob Liebbe]No wonder they felt good.

So does that mean that the new NT05 is the same as the R888?

It would be interesting to find out but the 05 looks as though it has a lot of void area meaning less rubber on the road. I am also still unsure of what is causing the added heat in the 888... I would think the stiffer sidewall and the same compound would work better, not worse?!

Larger tread blocks mean larger heat sinks holding the heat in.[quote]

theroy isnt sound. there are no tread blocks on a 4/32'ed shave RA1.

[AI#97]

theroy isnt sound. there are no tread blocks on a 4/32'ed shave RA1.

After seeing some of the miata 888's and now my set, I question that they are the exact same compound. RA1's look more like a race compound, and the 888's look more like a street tire compound...still soft and pliable, but doesn't wear the same. I am guessing that is the issue....but it's a completely uneducated guess.

Anyone got a durometer?

[BlueFirePony]

theroy isnt sound. there are no tread blocks on a 4/32'ed shave RA1.

After seeing some of the miata 888's and now my set, I question that they are the exact same compound. RA1's look more like a race compound, and the 888's look more like a street tire compound...still soft and pliable, but doesn't wear the same. I am guessing that is the issue....but it's a completely uneducated guess.

Anyone got a durometer?
Same compound in a different process would answer the question. The curing (vulcanization) can have a lot to do with it....similar to how different quality hockey pucks can come from the same stock but various weights and quality.

[Rob Liebbe]

Glenn, my theory is sound. A 4/32 RA1 has smaller tread block by volume per tread block than a 4/32 888.

Interesting reading about the Nitto NT05 and how it is a cross between the NT01 (RA1 equivalent) and their street 555. If the 888 and the NT05 are brothers in the manner that the NT01 and RA1 are related, then maybe we have a possible explaination. I certainly would like to know who to contact at Nitto or Toyo to find out. Anyone know who to contact?

[AI#97]

Glenn, my theory is sound. A 4/32 RA1 has smaller tread block by volume per tread block than a 4/32 888.

Interesting reading about the Nitto NT05 and how it is a cross between the NT01 (RA1 equivalent) and their street 555. If the 888 and the NT05 are brothers in the manner that the NT01 and RA1 are related, then maybe we have a possible explaination. I certainly would like to know who to contact at Nitto or Toyo to find out. Anyone know who to contact?

Rob, I think you are onto something! However, finding someone at Toyo that would admit to building a street tire for a race series might be sort of tough! LOL!!!

[Rob Liebbe]

I think you are right Matt. There are several race groups who run on street tires. If I had a captive audience that had to run the tire I dictated and could combine production lines of a dedicated race tire and a street tire I would do so. Tire plants are rewarded based on output and quality. The fewer times they have to reset a production line to change tire builds, the more efficient and higher quality they can be. Its just business. Doesn't mean it worked out well for us.

BTW does everyone know what a "green" tire is? It is the base tire before being molded into the final shape - tread blocks, sidewall markings etc. One "green" tire - including the internal structure and all the tread rubber etc - can be molded into several "different" tires. Example - Goodyear will produce a "green" tire and mold their Goodyear brand tire, a Walmart tire, a Discount Tire tire, a Sears tire, and a NTB tire. That's what you get when the tire salseman says that their store brand is made by Goodyear, or Michelin, etc.

So when you hear that the Nitto NT01 and the Toyo RA1 are the same tire, this is likely what has happened. Hence my argument for the NT05 and the R888. Now before you grille me that the NT05 does not come in the CMC1 size and the R888 does, let me explain. The manufacturer will build and test a particular size of new tire and transfer the basic design across sizes, within a reasonable range. They can then decide which sizes they want to creat molds for. Unlike GM, they may decide not to make five versions of the same product because molds are expensive, production throughput changes are expensive, etc. So, Toyo will get some sizes and Nitto will get the rest, thus achieving production efficiency. The two factions of the same company cover the spread of the market segment.

I think we are getting caught up in a company trying to achieve market efficiency and failing to satisfy all users with one product. A new product that does not perform as well as the outgoing product. Kinda like the Mustang II was not as good as the original.

My head hurts. :roll:

Rob - Tire Boy - Liebbe