What Class for 2010 - Do over.

[GlennCMC70]

those who have answered need not replay again. a simple CMC or CMC2 will be all i need. you want to talk about the tire BS, start a new topic. lets keep this one productive toward the topic at hand.


who is moving up to CMC-2 for 2010?
here is the current CMC list.
Jeff Wirtz
Michael Mosty
Gary Robertson
Glenn Landrum
Rob Liebbe
Charles Penney
Jeff Burch
David Francis
Team Varvini
Gary Hood
Greg Hughes
Corey Rueth
Nicholas Valentin
Nick Runyon
Robert Boudreaux
Ross Smith

here is the CMC-2 list:
Al Fernandez
James Proctor
Team Jordan
Steve Mulder
Jeremy Gunter
Chuck Scheibe
Jeremiah Kellam
Bryan Leinart
Mitch Warren
Team Red Shift Racing


CMC-2 for 2010:
Al Fernandez
James Proctor
Team Jordan
Steve Mulder
Jeremy Gunter
Chuck Scheibe
Jeremiah Kellam
Bryan Leinart
Team Red Shift Racing
Robert Boudreaux
Michael Mosty
Ross Smith
Gary Hood
Glenn Landrum
Eric Varner

CMC for 2010:
Mitch Warren
Jeff Wirtz
Gary Robertson
Rob Liebbe
Charles Penney
Jeff Burch
David Francis
Greg Hughes
Corey Rueth
Nicholas Valentin
Nick Runyon
Ross Smith

[mitchntx]

a simple CMC or CMC2 will be all i need


CMC

[David Love AI27]

a simple CMC or CMC2 will be all i need


CMC

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Classic Mitch

boy, Glenn, your gonna have some fun today...

ps I plan on running CMC with either a fox body or 3rd gen... it is too expensive (for me) to build either of them up to CMC2 (this is a true statment and is on topic)

[Rob Liebbe]

CMC

[mitchntx]

a simple CMC or CMC2 will be all i need


CMC

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Classic Mitch

boy, Glenn, your gonna have some fun today...

ps I plan on running CMC with either a fox body or 3rd gen... it is too expensive (for me) to build either of them up to CMC2 (this is a true statment and is on topic)

No, I'm serious. If I have to make a decision today, it would be CMC. Glenn's e-mail last night to me was basically the same sentiment ... I'm screwing around.

There is no appreciable difference between CMC and CMC2 when factoring in the horsepower change.

The 17" wheel package is a lot heavier and doesn't merit the change. 16s are lighter and cheaper and a lot easier to come by as I'm not competing with the AI world for tires.

[GlennCMC70]

so you cant run a 16 in CMC-2?

[mitchntx]

so you cant run a 16 in CMC-2?

According to the rules today, yes.

But according to you, there are secret squirrel meetings going on that will affect the masses. Who knows what will happen based upon past experience.

You can't throw this kind of turd out there and NOT expect this kind of reaction.

[GlennCMC70]

so you cant run a 16 in CMC-2?

According to the rules today, yes.

But according to you, there are secret squirrel meetings going on that will affect the masses. Who knows what will happen based upon past experience.

You can't throw this kind of turd out there and NOT expect this kind of reaction.

where have i said anything about secret squirrel meetings?

my original topic of doom was to find how many folks were not willing to move to CMC-2 yet. then talk w/ each one and find out why. then take that info to the directors across the country and see if they are seeing the same trend. identify the common reason and address it, push the issue w/ NASA National and make it clear the path they forced CMC doen was not a good one.
i also hoped that the more folks commited to CMC-2, the more we would have moving from CMC. i want 20+ car fields again. w/ one class we are pretty much there.

after all these years, you guys still think i have some hidden agenda and that its never what it appears to be on the surface.
so tell me, what turd was thrown?

[mitchntx]

where have i said anything about secret squirrel meetings?


You conveniently deleted the post.

But I will paraphrase ...

"Need to know which class everyone will be in so that the Directors can make decisions about where the group is going"


The turd is deleting posts and is a liberty and power you moderators have that shouldn't be taken lightly. Doing so because its inconvenient for you or someone else is not an excuse.

Just the opposite happens. It creates a shit storm that you are now witnessing.

[Alien]

CMC

[GlennCMC70]

i'm also seeing a bunch of childish responces over deleting a post w/ things like "CMC Classic" in it.

and from your point of view about the meetings, we have them everytime we email each other. nothing secret about it. we often talk about the series in private.

[David Love AI27]

my original topic of doom was to find how many folks were not willing to move to CMC-2 yet. then talk w/ each one and find out why.

Thanks for taking the time to do this.

CMC

I have 2 doner cars... a 3rd gen and a fox... it is going to be cheaper for me to build a CMC 1 car than it would to try and build the hp to get into CMC 2... In my opinion CMC 2 was a product of the 4th gen and sn95 guys bringing their cars "down" to CMC 1 levels... it will be a shame if the foxes and 3rd gens have to spend more $ to move "up"... this is having the same affect as it would if you tried to combine AI and AIX and got rid of AI...

[AI#97]

my original topic of doom was to find how many folks were not willing to move to CMC-2 yet. then talk w/ each one and find out why. then take that info to the directors across the country and see if they are seeing the same trend. identify the common reason and address it, push the issue w/ NASA National and make it clear the path they forced CMC doen was not a good one.
i also hoped that the more folks commited to CMC-2, the more we would have moving from CMC. i want 20+ car fields again. w/ one class we are pretty much there.

after all these years, you guys still think i have some hidden agenda and that its never what it appears to be on the surface.
so tell me, what turd was thrown?

to expand on Rob's point....don't try to dumb down a thread start. Point out the intentions of the post to begin with....leaves less room for the masses to "speculate" what you are after. better communication is key!

Sort of keep everyone in check before they get out of hand.

[GlennCMC70]

Sort of keep everyone in check before they get out of hand.

you mean like deleting off topic posts?
they were coming in so fast i couldn't react to it. so i deleted the whole thing.

[AI#97]

Sort of keep everyone in check before they get out of hand.

you mean like deleting off topic posts?
they were coming in so fast i couldn't react to it. so i deleted the whole thing.

I think had you gone into detail of what you were looking for, you wouldn't have had to delete posts.

Secondly, deleting someones "speech" will always offend.

Maybe next time, answer stuff like that with...."let's stay on topic along these XXXXXXX lines to work toward an answer."

You are deleting these simple posts....yet my blabbery blow up to JG is still on this board unedited....?! :?

[GlennCMC70]

feel freeto delete it yourself.
i took the freedome to delete what i saw fit in a post i started.
its not like i go on here and do this on a monthly basis.

[mitchntx]

i'm also seeing a bunch of childish responces over deleting a post w/ things like "CMC Classic" in it.

and from your point of view about the meetings, we have them everytime we email each other. nothing secret about it. we often talk about the series in private.


I'm floored because I know you aren't kidding.

All this because I said "CMC Classic", JB said he was unsure and might part out and Wirtz said "I dono".

Jeezus

[GlennCMC70]

right. you couldnt repost and say, no really, CMC.
i took your post as a joke. i didnt expect you to move back to CMC. i didnt want jokes posted.
JB's post that was deleted was a little more than that.
i didnt delete JW's post or edit it.

[mitchntx]

right. you couldnt repost and say, no really, CMC.
i took your post as a joke. i didnt expect you to move back to CMC. i didnt want jokes posted.
JB's post that was deleted was a little more than that.
i didnt delete JW's post or edit it.

And you couldn't ask "Really?" instead of deleting?

By deleting the whole thread, you did delete JWs post.

I think in my case and JBs case, you read more into it than what was actually there. You over-reacted.

I saw JBs post and what I stated above was my take-away ...

[GlennCMC70]

chicken or the egg?
i worked w/ what i had. you act as if its the end of the world cause i deleted a post i took in jest. it wasnt your lifes work.

[GlennCMC70]

a simple CMC or CMC2 will be all i need


CMC

i'll do my best to replace what i took from you.
Mitch will be running CMC Classic.

[jeffburch]

Citizens arrest-citizens arrest
Tangent-tangent

Jb

[evarner]

CMC2 - Varner

[mitchntx]

chicken or the egg?
i worked w/ what i had. you act as if its the end of the world cause i deleted a post i took in jest. it wasnt your lifes work.

Maybe you should spread that love around. I wasn't the only one not amused.

[GlennCMC70]

your comment was the only one i regret deleting as it pertained to the topic, i mistook it for a joke.

[mitchntx]

Apology (?) accepted.

Hey, I have cat.
http://www.quizilla.com/user_images/F/FU/FUN/FUNPIKE/1240768729_1204_full.jpeg

(Todd, comedy is all about timing.)

[Sidney]

I have a question? Is there an official push in Texas to move the CMCer's to CMC2 for 2010? Have all the combo's been built and running this year? Any insight towards what National wants to do?

As some of you are aware, 2009 is an "In Production" year for several cars in the Midwest. We'd just hate to see these newbies build cars for CMC1 only to find out everyone moved to CMC2.

Hallett won't be near as much fun if we show up with CMC cars and you all have moved to CMC2.

Thanks,

Sidney
Midwest CMC #64

[Rob Liebbe]

Yeah, but it is fun to outrun the CMC2 crowd in your CMC car. :D

[michaelmosty]

Sidney, we have averaged about 10 CMC cars / event and about 8 CMC2 cars / event.
I am speculating but I would guess next year will be somewhat flipped with CMC2 #'s being slightly higher and CMC slightly lower. It seems that the majority of the new guys coming in are going CMC2. (nobody start a new thread about my over-speculation).

[Rsmith350]

I have a question? Is there an official push in Texas to move the CMCer's to CMC2 for 2010? Have all the combo's been built and running this year? Any insight towards what National wants to do?

As some of you are aware, 2009 is an "In Production" year for several cars in the Midwest. We'd just hate to see these newbies build cars for CMC1 only to find out everyone moved to CMC2.

Hallett won't be near as much fun if we show up with CMC cars and you all have moved to CMC2.

Thanks,

Sidney
Midwest CMC #64

CMC2 combo for 3rd gen's is built and ready to put in the car, it goes on the engine test stand by the end of the month and depending on tranny completion will be in the car and on a dyno by the end September. Will be working on the cage simultaneously and May see track time by October. Praying to the car God's that everything goes as planned.

[GlennCMC70]

there is no push for guys to move to CMC-2. there is motovation to get back to the good old days of a single class. not only for the regional events, but for the National events too. back in 2006, CMC at Nationals had 23 cars. every year since, it has dropped significantly. somewhat due to the split.
you carb guys should have no problem making the chart #2 numbers.

[Wirtz]

So I would rather see some discussion around what it will take, or what the plans might be for the turd gens in The Deuce
{whoa - when I type it out like that it seems like it was meant to be...}

Anywho:
- Some of us have zero plans to go back to a carb.
- Some of us have significant money tied up in a 3rd gen, and simply "participating" in CMC2 is not good enough. There needs to be a real plan for the cars to be able to be competitive.

I have not been able to go screen the info out there in depth myself as of yet. I'm not aware of a current 3rd gen running -2 with the 305 TPI combo. If there is, some dyno info would be great. Shotz worked the L98 TPI idea and my unofficial summary of his feedback was it did not seem viable as is.

My concerns are;
1) A tweaked 305 may be able to make -2 peak numbers, but I want to see the whole dyno curve. I'm not convinced a 305 can make the same fatness of a powerband as a 350.
Edit: I made a comment about the Fox3 here, but now that I think on it a bit more, Jerry's 302 with the bolt ons seems to go like a bat out of hell, so they maybe don't have so much an issue??

2) The TPI seems to kill the L98 350's potential. So then what? I keep thinking I would like to explore optional EFI intakes (either converted LT1 stuff or an aftermarket piece). Are the directors open to that? It's money, but probably a hell of a lot less money than being in a position to dump my car off (or part it out :( ) and have a build a new deuce car.

3) Related, but what about engine swaps? Pretty hardcore but puts the power thing to bed. Dorks like me would probably go for it. LT1 or hell, even LS1 choked down. Sounds good to me.

Al should remember, but when this whole thing first came up, I offered myself up to be a test mule. Then when the whole deal got very political, I backed out for fear of dumping money to help do R&D and then getting shafted. If there is serious thoughts from the directors on making the 3rd gen cars competitive, I can try to help work it after Eagles Canyon. If the thought is more around "just give them a place to play if they want" then I will likely end up just running CMC until no one is left.

[GlennCMC70]

So I would rather see some discussion around what it will take, or what the plans might be for the turd gens in The Deuce
{whoa - when I type it out like that it seems like it was meant to be...}

Anywho:
- Some of us have zero plans to go back to a carb.
- Some of us have significant money tied up in a 3rd gen, and simply "participating" in CMC2 is not good enough. There needs to be a real plan for the cars to be able to be competitive.

I have not been able to go screen the info out there in depth myself as of yet. I'm not aware of a current 3rd gen running -2 with the 305 TPI combo. If there is, some dyno info would be great. Shotz worked the L98 TPI idea and my unofficial summary of his feedback was it did not seem viable as is.

My concerns are;
1) A tweaked 305 may be able to make -2 peak numbers, but I want to see the whole dyno curve. I'm not convinced a 305 can make the same fatness of a powerband as a 350.
Edit: I made a comment about the Fox3 here, but now that I think on it a bit more, Jerry's 302 with the bolt ons seems to go like a bat out of hell, so they maybe don't have so much an issue??

2) The TPI seems to kill the L98 350's potential. So then what? I keep thinking I would like to explore optional EFI intakes (either converted LT1 stuff or an aftermarket piece). Are the directors open to that? It's money, but probably a hell of a lot less money than being in a position to dump my car off (or part it out :( ) and have a build a new deuce car.

3) Related, but what about engine swaps? Pretty hardcore but puts the power thing to bed. Dorks like me would probably go for it. LT1 or hell, even LS1 choked down. Sounds good to me.

Al should remember, but when this whole thing first came up, I offered myself up to be a test mule. Then when the whole deal got very political, I backed out for fear of dumping money to help do R&D and then getting shafted. If there is serious thoughts from the directors on making the 3rd gen cars competitive, I can try to help work it after Eagles Canyon. If the thought is more around "just give them a place to play if they want" then I will likely end up just running CMC until no one is left.

sounds like your taking this as a pretty serious issue. i am too. thus my no BS approach to the thread that got deleted.

optional intakes are on the table, but not ideal due to cost. there was hopes that a cheaper solution could be found. cheaper than an engine swap though.
engine swaps have been kicked around. the LT1/T-56 is a very simple swap and i think should be a viable solution. but be forwarned, you will have to carry the min weight of the 4th gen LT1 or LS1 cars w/ that combo.
there is an alternate table for the TPI cars in CMC-2, but i really dont like the idea. it could work just fine, but i'm not good w/ it yet.

[ShadowBolt]

My concerns are;
1) A tweaked 305 may be able to make -2 peak numbers, but I want to see the whole dyno curve. I'm not convinced a 305 can make the same fatness of a powerband as a 350.
Edit: I made a comment about the Fox3 here, but now that I think on it a bit more, Jerry's 302 with the bolt ons seems to go like a bat out of hell, so they maybe don't have so much an issue??

Jeff,

Just a little info on the 302 in my car. In R2 Jay and JP ran lap after lap down the front stretch and neither one could pull the other. In R4 I got a start like I usually do and passed three cars. Then I had to drive the turns and I fell back to the rear. Either I need to learn to drive or find another hobby but that is another issue. The way I pulled away from the other -2 cars was not because of power but because I got a great jump. I don't know if running the car at Hallett at 235-240 degrees did some damage but CMC17 got pulled like it's not funny by the 85 and the 18 all weekend. Other than the start of R4 we did not pull anyone anywhere. We have video of Jay getting a really big run (a full car length) on Chuck's 4th gen starting down the front stretch only to watch Chuck pull us by four or five lengths by the braking zone. The 18 also pulled us like we were tied to a post but I know it has not been on the dyno with this new engine but I'm sure Chuck's car has. I know the 85 and the 18 are not cheaters and if the 18 dynoes out okay then we have done some kind of damage to the 17. Another 50 HP would not have helped me this weekend but I can't afford to be down any power at all. Assuming our car and the 85 are at top CMC2 power then the 302 is in trouble against a 350 with like driver skills.


JJ

[AI#97]

school me here a little bit but what's wrong with a TPI 305 and a spec cam slightly larger than stock to get 30 rwhp? Is it a computer/injector thing that can't cover the added power?

[jeffburch]

Torque disproportionatly too high vs hp.

Jb

[AI#97]

Torque disproportionatly too high vs hp.

Jb

A higher lift cam with lower duration and correct overlap should fix that easily. This is a simple phone call to crane, comp or other grinder....and you get a custom cam for whatever curve you want.

Surely an old factory stock drag guy can figure out how to make power with a stock 305 right?!

Am I oversimplifying this? Would it move the powerband up to high and then you can't take advantage because of a low rev limiter that you can't adjust?

I would think the technology for this has been around since 1992....?

[Hood]

The other problem is the intake. Without an intake swap the cam doesn't work as well as you might think. The LT1 intake would make things a lot nicer for making power without having it blow up the torque curve. The TPI equipped engine makes tractor torque but doesn't make the horsepower above 4800 rpm. My carb'd engine actually pulls nicely to over 5200 and gets stretched to almost 6K at TWS. A cam swap on a carb'd 305 with headers MIGHT make the Table 2 numbers, but like Jeff Wirtz said, I'm more interested in the total area under the curve and not just the peak. The carb'd 350 makes more sense for CMC2.

[David Love AI27]

A cam swap on a carb'd 305 with headers MIGHT make the Table 2 numbers

my old 305 made 292/311... but it was carbed... not the solution JW is looking for tho...

[GlennCMC70]

Matt, the problem is intake runner length. GM went out of thier way to to make as much TQ as they could w/ the 305. they did too good of a job. there is no way to get HP where you need it (260) w/out the TQ going sky high. add in a 350 and it gets even more lop sided. best deal is to get rid of the intake and then add a cam that will put the hp/tq where you need it.
i'm also a fan of not having these guys be required to go carb just to do this. it may be a cheaper solution, but its not the right one.

[Todd Covini]

I know today's the day to beat up on Glenn, but the clock strikes midnight in 3 hours and tomorrow y'all should applaud him for working this so hard. Many of the CMC National Directors (not me of course) have thrown in the towel on this issue after the "decision stick" was taken from us last year on the CMC/CMC2 merger.

Glenn has picked up the ball and is trying to work it further given what we've seen in the past year.

[jeffburch]

Back in the day, 230/300 was selected I presume as the class max by looking at the max output of the two 5 liter motors at the time.
Hence why Ford fellers have never made the tq number.
Where did the CMC2 numbers of 260/310 come from?
Was it a thought out logical set of numbers?
Where did it come from?
An uncorked LT1?
The LS1 guys gotta be thinking the same thing?
WTF? Where did they get this set of numbers?

jb


Edit:
More to the point, CMC2 numbers seem low to me considering the new cars. IF, the (2) numbers are for an uncorked LT1, well, IMO that's the issue. New cars should be allowed much closer to their rated numbers.
Hell, the 944's have 3 classes. Hondas have what, 4 or 5?
Allow the new cars to equilize closer to their power, keep cmc as it always was.

What does a 3v 4.6 make from the factory?
What does a 2002 LSx F body make.
:roll:
jb

[Todd Covini]

I can speak to anything CMC Classic, but when it comes to CMC-2, Mr. Al Fernandez is going to be your best source for technical info explanations and such.

[michaelmosty]

I know today's the day to beat up on Glenn, but the clock strikes midnight in 3 hours and tomorrow y'all should applaud him for working this so hard. Many of the CMC National Directors (not me of course) have thrown in the towel on this issue after the "decision stick" was taken from us last year on the CMC/CMC2 merger.

Glenn has picked up the ball and is trying to work it further given what we've seen in the past year.
I agree, big kudos to Glenn!!
In the end I think we all want to race with the maximum # of people possible all with level platforms. I think that Glenn is going beyond the expectation to make this happen and we will all be better off in the future.
Thanks!!!

[GlennCMC70]

I know today's the day to beat up on Glenn, but the clock strikes midnight in 3 hours and tomorrow y'all should applaud him for working this so hard. Many of the CMC National Directors (not me of course) have thrown in the towel on this issue after the "decision stick" was taken from us last year on the CMC/CMC2 merger.

Glenn has picked up the ball and is trying to work it further given what we've seen in the past year.
I agree, big kudos to Glenn!!
In the end I think we all want to race with the maximum # of people possible all with level platforms. I think that Glenn is going beyond the expectation to make this happen and we will all be better off in the future.
Thanks!!!

if i deleted this kiss ass responce today would you hold it against me tomorrow?

[AI#97]

That sucks this is so hard to figure out....maybe they need LS1's and just run AI?!

:P

[GlennCMC70]

some good reading.
http://www.highperformancepontiac.com/tech/hppp_0910_dyno_testing_the_tpi_chevy_small_block_e ngine/intake_manifolds.html

[mitchntx]

I don't get it.

I understand getting to 1 group again.
I understand the reason for "the number" that its one that is attainable and not out of reason for all engine platforms.
I understand that this is gonna screw over a group of current racers
I understand that this is needed to grow the series

What I don't understand, speaking specifically about the GM side of the house, why not allow the LT1/T56 combo be allowed in 3rd gens.

Its a known package, reliable, available & reasonably priced. The T56 gets rid of the T5 issues. I bought a complete 95 LT1/T56 with harness, PCM, and accessories for $1500 and it went in the teal car. Granted, that kind of deal doesn't come along very often, but they can be had. Mike and I have have that kind of combo right now, engine harness, PCM and all that would be very reasonably priced for any of you guys.

Its a simple fix made extremely complicated (once again).

Throwing parts at a 5L TPI is a crap shoot and a potential money pit. If I were faced with this dilema, I'd be sitting out or parting out, too.

[AllZWay]

I agree with Mitch here.

I understand the problem and the solution is a difficult one. Kudos to those willing to try and work it out. Someone is going to get screwed in the deal since I just don't see an easy way to fix it.

That said...If I was a driver of a thrid gen, I would be really ticked off and would probably have the same attitude as Mr. Burch.

I want us all in one group, but I just don't see how we do it and make it fair.

[Alien]

I'd be game for the OPTION of an LT1/T56 in a 3G wik 4th gen weights. If getting back to one group is a goal, what I don't want to see is the LT1 or a 350 carb'd/TPI being the only option.

I also hope to see the weights for 3G in -2 get dropped back down to 3150 for TPI/carb'd.

[GlennCMC70]

Gary's request is the reason this is so hard. the best option is one that involves the 305TPI set-up. if its just not possible, then the other options are a possible solution. i dont think we are there yet. i think it would be ok to go ahead and make that option legal for those who are willing to go that route, but we should still be working towards a solution that involes the use of the 305TPI in the mean time.

right now i would like to see some dyno info from a 5 speed car w/ a 305 and LT1 intake modified to fit a rear mounted distributor. same w/ a 3rd gen 350. results w/ aftermarket cams are OK since its likely the 305 will need it to get there. i spent hours on ThirdGen.org yesterday. lots of threads w/ how to modify the LT1 intake, but no dyno resuts.

[evarner]

I would really be interested in seeing dyno graphs for:

CMC 302

CMC 305

CMC 2 302

CMC 2 350


I have no clue if this information has been presented before, but would be nice to see the curves for each listed above.

[mitchntx]

To me, there in-lies the real issue.

A decision was made to include later model packages with little regard or forethought about the ramifications.

Now it requires the racer/owner to invest in R&D to find a "fix". The money invested might or might not be the answer. And if its not, I'm hundreds or thousands in and at square 1.

Those odds suck especially when they have been dumped in someones lap.

[Wirtz]

I'll offer up the dyno data I have for my 305. I have the actual Dynojet files, so using their free viewer it is easy to compare different runs.

Question to Al and Glenn; can you guys get test mule dynos for anyone using the tweaked 305 and the info generated from Shotz on the L98 TPI?

Anyone in this region willing to share their LT1 data?

[GlennCMC70]

To me, there in-lies the real issue.

A decision was made to include later model packages with little regard or forethought about the ramifications.

Now it requires the racer/owner to invest in R&D to find a "fix". The money invested might or might not be the answer. And if its not, I'm hundreds or thousands in and at square 1.

Those odds suck especially when they have been dumped in someones lap.

in the past there were a number of folks who were willing to do just that to help resolve the problem. the directors were well on thier way to seeing results from the folks who volunteered. then National stepped in and changed the rules. we now have only a couple folks doing the tests. on eis a 350 TPI and is like not going to be allowed. the otheris a 305 TPI and is close to the number, but not where i would call a done deal.
it made 235/302 w/ a bad injector and will be dynoe at Nats w/ and expected 245/305. those are not perfect numbers, but the 4th gen doesnt always make perfect numbers. i've seen them come up 15 short on the HP or TQ side more often that i care to count. those cars did just fine like that and no sympathy was ever given to them because of it.
anyways. moving on.

[David Love AI27]

A decision was made to include later model packages with little regard or forethought about the ramifications.



herein lies the problem... this is not the only issue caused by the lack of forethought... the tire deal is another example

I thought this CMC2 deal was to let the 4th gen and sn95 guys uncork the motors and use more of the car's potential. Had I know it was more in line with weeding out the "old" cars then I wouldn't have TWO donor cars that are basically worthless, now... I came into this series because CMC was a low budget entry level series. NOW I have to add and extra 20% to my initial build to put a new motor and tranny in a 3rd gen just because to people running the show are either idiots or have no concern for the people they hurt.

some of you are wondering why do I care, I'm running AI. I didn't intend to run AI, I just couldn't pass on a complete race car with trailer for $7K

[GlennCMC70]

I'll offer up the dyno data I have for my 305. I have the actual Dynojet files, so using their free viewer it is easy to compare different runs.

Question to Al and Glenn; can you guys get test mule dynos for anyone using the tweaked 305 and the info generated from Shotz on the L98 TPI?

Anyone in this region willing to share their LT1 data?

Jeff - i have many dyno jet files for my motor. shoot me a email at Glenn_Landrum at msn dot com.
i'll see if i can get the same data from the 3rd gen testers. Mike Plum is the tester for the 305 and Dave Shotz is the 350 guy. both are TPI set-ups.

[GlennCMC70]

A decision was made to include later model packages with little regard or forethought about the ramifications.



herein lies the problem... this is not the only issue caused by the lack of forethought... the tire deal is another example

I thought this CMC2 deal was to let the 4th gen and sn95 guys uncork the motors and use more of the car's potential. Had I know it was more in line with weeding out the "old" cars then I wouldn't have TWO donor cars that are basically worthless, now... I came into this series because CMC was a low budget entry level series. NOW I have to add and extra 20% to my initial build to put a new motor and tranny in a 3rd gen just because to people running the show are either idiots or have no concern for the people they hurt.

some of you are wondering why do I care, I'm running AI. I didn't intend to run AI, I just couldn't pass on a complete race car with trailer for $7K

you still have CMC as a place to race. its not gone. and i think a easy low cost solution for the 3rd gen is close. 20% is a bit much.
and if you want to blame anyone, blame JWL. this is his mandate to have all these cars in one class. understand that the people who YOU think is running the show, are not accually in control of it. just as you have to answer to the directors, the directors have to answer to Tony, and Tony answers to JWL/RF. 90% of the problems over the last 3-4 years has not been generated by Tony. but he was expected to "make it work". also, thank Tony and all your other directors (before my time) - at one point in time there was no "one class by X date". the original plan was to allow all the LS1 and '05 Fords in the class and spend the season (2007) to slow them down. Tony stood his ground as did others and offered to create a new class for them to run in and give us time to slow them down w/out affecting CMC.

[Wirtz]

I don't think finger pointing in any direction will help.... many people had their hands in, or partially in creating this mess. Key to me now if finding a solution to fix it.

Maybe the answer really is to keep the CMC and CMC2... I dono at this point. But at least for me at this point, I'm willing to spend some time trying to find a fix for the 3G cars.

Thanks for trying to dig up some of the data Glenn. I think that is an important first step from my point of view.

[GlennCMC70]

accually Dave Shotz and Mike Plum are doing alot w/ thier own personal cars right now. they deserve the most credit. my push is due to this taking too long. we need an answer now to give time towards the 2011 season.
i tried to attach the file of the dyno from my car here, but this site will not allow that type file to be attached.

while on the topic. i encourage everyone to download the Dyno Jet software from the Dyno Jet site (free). then save your files from the pulls. at the least you will be able to re-print a dyno sheet if needed. it will also help you look at yur pulls and overlay one to another in case your making adjustments and want to see what works and what doesnt.

[Al Fernandez]

Geez, never fails...I'm away from the computer for 24hrs and I miss all kinds of drama! :lol:

For the record, I'm ok with allowing LT1/T56 swaps into 3rd gens personally. I'm not convinced that is something the general body agrees with, but I could be wrong. Please do let me know your thoughts so when this comes up Glenn and I can properly represent what you guys want.

I dont think that should be the only upgrade path for those 3rd gens though. Its a timing thing. I've you're at a point where you need a new motor and trans anyway it would look a lot different financially then if you're car is perfectly healthy and competitive.

Yes, getting 305s to experiment has been dreadfully slow. There is just not much the series directors have been able to do once our hands were tied. There are a couple in progress and lots of theory...having seen a 305tpi make 248/317 without headers I'm not convinced its impossible.

There is no agenda from a director's perspective to push cars one way or another. We want to have a complete package yes, but there is no push to get cmc cars up to cmc2. The driver's will decide that on their own.

If Texas gets down to needing cars in cmc to make Toyo bucks I will move back to cmc to help. I dont think, based on this thread, that this will be an issue for 2010.

Anyone that is unclear as to the history of this, why and how we got to where we are, why this was done over that...post a direct question or give me a call. :D

[David Love AI27]

and if you want to blame anyone, blame JWL. this is his mandate to have all these cars in one class. understand that the people who YOU think is running the show, are not accually in control of it

I have been in many organizations and I understand how it works. In NO way is my rant directed AT you or Al or Todd... it is directed THROUGH you all as directors, nothing personal. I would NEVER go over anyone's head on the local level because it would hurt your credibility as directors. Thanks for wearing the target and dodging and/or taking the bullets.

As for 20%... My goal is to build a 3rd gen CMC car for @$7,000. I paid $1,000 for the car and have many used parts from E-bay and from my AI car. If my budget is $7K and the only motor and tranny solution costs me $1,500, then it is 20% added to my build AND according to my financial statement it is 30% of my YTD income including the generous sponsorship I recieved.

[BryanL]

Stock LS1 is going to make over 300/320. Restricted below 260 hp makes peak tq around 290 but in the high 280's on the 2 I have knowledge of. I have had mine down as low as 248 hp and unrestricted I think its 305/325 and that is with cats, single pipe with no muffler.

Anyone who wants to a zip file of a ton of my (some legal/some not) dynojet runs pm me an email address. I do request that you send me your files for comparisons sake. I still think everyone's dyno graph should have to be scanned and posted on the national site.

If LT1's are legal in 3rd gens then maybe I should hang onto my 93 Z. But anyone can buy it for 1,300. I'm not convinced that the 305 isn't the hot ticket in CMC2 with the allowed mods. I would rather have an extra 15 tq and be down 10 on hp.

Al makes his point the same way he made it to me for his 4 piston brakes. If a guy has a early 4th gen and needs to upgrade to ls1 brakes then its not a huge increase in money to upgrade to 4 pistons.

[Fbody383]

#39 will likely be CMC for '10. Competiveness seems to be more driver and setup, not engine output related.

What are the dollars we're talking to spec and build a 305 motor? The real exposure is the development cost minus recoupment costs; are there enough folks in the series nationally to spread that around?

Not a big fan of socialing costs of anything, but it is OUR series.

Where is the data of what's been tried? I would be glad to talk to my engine guy about potential combinations. The answer is out there if we have enough people turning rocks.

[GlennCMC70]

#39 will likely be CMC for '10. Competiveness seems to be more driver and setup, not engine output related.

What are the dollars we're talking to spec and build a 305 motor? The real exposure is the development cost minus recoupment costs; are there enough folks in the series nationally to spread that around?

Not a big fan of socialing costs of anything, but it is OUR series.

Where is the data of what's been tried? I would be glad to talk to my engine guy about potential combinations. The answer is out there if we have enough people turning rocks.

post these questions up on the national site since that is the level at which this is being worked on.

[BryanL]

[quote="Fbody383"]#39 will likely be CMC for '10. Competiveness seems to be more driver and setup, not engine output related.
quote]

Francie-you might want to rethink that comment. Setup isn't any different and the power change doesn't make much of a difference at all. Just ask the LT1 guys after they pulled their restrictors. For ECR how about you run one day without your restrictor and see if you are any quicker. I've got a 100 bucks that says you aren't a second quicker.

[David Love AI27]

cmc

[Crumpacker]

CMC2

[Al Fernandez]

Seriously? I thought the rolling R plaque was destined for AI?

[David Love AI27]

Seriously? I thought the rolling R plaque was destined for AI?

Dude he already kicked my AI butt during track days... time for you CMC 2 guys to get a taste... you guys are screwed... 2010 your all gonna be chasin' Sam and fightin' for 2nd.. bets anyone??? I'll even give odds...

[Crumpacker]

2010 your all gonna be chasin' Sam and fightin' for 2nd.. bets anyone??? I'll even give odds...


thanks David... as if i didnt have a big enough target on me from driving the creamsicle (my wife's nickname for the car). Apparently some of you have had bad experiences with orange cars, I heard someone even had a run-in with my car's previous owner. :oops: No worries guys, I don't plan on sharing any paint.


As far as 2 vs AI; I have a bone stock 302 (w/ headers), CMC suspension and undersized brakes... I think CMC2 is a better fit.

[michaelmosty]

2010 your all gonna be chasin' Sam and fightin' for 2nd.. bets anyone??? I'll even give odds...




As far as 2 vs AI; I have a bone stock 302 (w/ headers), CMC suspension and undersized brakes... I think CMC2 is a better fit.
Bingo, welcome aboard!! :D

[Fbody383]

#39 will likely be CMC for '10. Competiveness seems to be more driver and setup, not engine output related.


Francie-you might want to rethink that comment. Setup isn't any different and the power change doesn't make much of a difference at all. Just ask the LT1 guys after they pulled their restrictors. For ECR how about you run one day without your restrictor and see if you are any quicker. I've got a 100 bucks that says you aren't a second quicker.

You misunderstood what I meant; I believe my laptimes are more an issue of suspension setup and NOT power output.

When there's limited traction overall, I do better comparatively, i.e. see Hallett qaulifying in the wet. No need for me to go to the Duece, yet.

Wanna put a Benjamin on 0.001 sec?

Oh yeah, call me Francis... and I'll kill ya.

[RagingAardvark]

I have a question? Is there an official push in Texas to move the CMCer's to CMC2 for 2010? Have all the combo's been built and running this year? Any insight towards what National wants to do?

I haven't heard of anyone in Rocky Mountain talking about going to CMC-2(of the current CMC-1 crop). I can tell you Beth and I won't be putting a different engine in the car as we are already on our SECOND in < 1 year of racing this car. We had to pull the previous 350 to make it legal in CMC-1 (as there were no CMC-2 cars to race in RM). We also won't be switching to a carb setup as we just put a Painless TPI harness in it.

Personally, I wouldn't mind being given free reign as to how we get to the actual HP/TQ numbers, versus "you are only allowed these 3 mods to your 305".

BTW, even as is, this engine is making nearly 20hp and 15tq less than the previous owner had it score on the dyno. Finding those 20/15 won't be cheap, but we were seriously considering it for next year. If CMC-1 will be running at CMC-2 levels in 2011, then we probably won't spend the money to hit the max allowed CMC-1 levels in 2010 only to have to redo our setup the next winter.

-e

[David Love AI27]

edited... gotta remember to be supportive

[Al Fernandez]

Guys, there is no "they" trying to combine cmc1 and cmc2. That is all in the hands of the drivers. As long as people want to run cmc1, we will continue to support and promote it.

[gt40]

[quote=David Love AI27]thanks David... as if i didnt have a big enough target on me from driving the creamsicle (my wife's nickname for the car).Not any more! ;)