What tire for 2010? RA1 or R888?

[GlennCMC70]

bitch about that here.

[mitchntx]

Somehow you don't see how the tire rule might affect whetehr someone moves to 2 or back to 1.

[michaelmosty]

Maybe I missed something but:
I didn't know a decision had been made 100%. I know there is talk about going back to the RA1 but how would that determine if you run CMC or CMC2?
"IF" they go back to the RA1 we still don't know what sizes they will produce.

[David Love AI27]

Is there a choice??? what is the choice??? who makes the choice??? Since I feel like Toyo screwed everyone around this season, can we choose another provider? Seems like I remember IRL and/or F1 having a tire competion similar to the manufacturers points....

I propose that for 2010 we "run what we brung" do a points battle for tires like manufacturer points and the winning tire will be the tire for AI/CMC Texas for 2011. If the National office is taking bribes from Toyo to keep running crappy tires or tires that you can't find and you want to support their misguided decision then I guess you will have to run what they tell you to run....

How about a boycott of nationals or host the AI/CMC nationals ourselves???... Hallett is a fairly central track. Three day event no mixed classes 2 practices and R1 qual on Friday, morning practice and R1 on Sat. before lunch, afternoon R2 qual and R2 on Sat. afternoon, sunday moring Q3 short practice and R3 after lunch... get away early...

[GlennCMC70]

Somehow you don't see how the tire rule might affect whetehr someone moves to 2 or back to 1.

whatever the tire may be, it will be the same tire for both. so what difference does it make now? none.

[GlennCMC70]

Maybe I missed something but:
I didn't know a decision had been made 100%. I know there is talk about going back to the RA1 but how would that determine if you run CMC or CMC2?
"IF" they go back to the RA1 we still don't know what sizes they will produce.

if the RA1 is the tire, my bet is they will produce the 16 and 17. otherwise, why go back? may as well stay w/ the R888.
you are right, why get wound up in a what if.

[GlennCMC70]

Is there a choice??? what is the choice??? who makes the choice??? Since I feel like Toyo screwed everyone around this season, can we choose another provider? Seems like I remember IRL and/or F1 having a tire competion similar to the manufacturers points....

I propose that for 2010 we "run what we brung" do a points battle for tires like manufacturer points and the winning tire will be the tire for AI/CMC Texas for 2011. If the National office is taking bribes from Toyo to keep running crappy tires or tires that you can't find and you want to support their misguided decision then I guess you will have to run what they tell you to run....

How about a boycott of nationals or host the AI/CMC nationals ourselves???... Hallett is a fairly central track. Three day event no mixed classes 2 practices and R1 qual on Friday, morning practice and R1 on Sat. before lunch, afternoon R2 qual and R2 on Sat. afternoon, sunday moring Q3 short practice and R3 after lunch... get away early...

David, no black helecopters please.

[AI#97]

if the RA1 is the tire, my bet is they will produce the 16 and 17. otherwise, why go back? may as well stay w/ the R888.
you are right, why get wound up in a what if.

Not keen on the R888 due to the wear and increased cost issue.

What I have read so far is RA1 reproduced ONLY in 205/50/15 and 275/40/17....haven't heard anything on 16's....not that I really looked either.

I think Mitch's point might be right if they only make the 275/40's and then FORCE CMC1 up to CMC2.... :?:

[GlennCMC70]

if the RA1 is the tire, my bet is they will produce the 16 and 17. otherwise, why go back? may as well stay w/ the R888.
you are right, why get wound up in a what if.

Not keen on the R888 due to the wear and increased cost issue.

What I have read so far is RA1 reproduced ONLY in 205/50/15 and 275/40/17....haven't heard anything on 16's....not that I really looked either.

I think Mitch's point might be right if they only make the 275/40's and then FORCE CMC1 up to CMC2.... :?:

so why would that affect Mitch? he's already on 17's? in fact, i'm fairly sure he has sold most of his 16's.
since you admitted you know nothing about the 16's due to not looking, why speculate on it? why add to the rumor mill?
since i only have 16's, i would be very sensitive to that possibility, and i'm not worried about that at all.

[GlennCMC70]

also, since part of the problem most racers have w/ the R888 is increased cost per tire and cost over the season, and NASA and Toyo have responded in some way to that issue, why would they mandate the RA1 but only in a 17" size vs the R888 that would be available in both? if they were responded to racers concerns of "added cost" wouldnt buying new wheels just so we can run the RA1 be no different?

[AI#97]

so why would that affect Mitch? he's already on 17's? in fact, i'm fairly sure he has sold most of his 16's.
since you admitted you know nothing about the 16's due to not looking, why speculate on it? why add to the rumor mill?
since i only have 16's, i would be very sensitive to that possibility, and i'm not worried about that at all.

With what appears to be a push to move all CMC UP to -2....I wouldn't be so comfortable if I were you.

Think of it this way....how may 16" shod cars are left now?.... Likely FAR fewer than the number -2 cars running 17's. How do you propose that to TOYO to go back to building another RA1 size? It's a tough call. Given -2, FFR (could go back to 275's but are already on 17's) and AI are on 275's....Toyo could very easily say, "it makes no sense to start building 255/16 RA1's for us". That could leave CMC with 16" 888's or bump to 275 17's...

Either way, National needs to tell the CMC gang what the decision is soon so you can work our your rules changes as needed. I am sure the CMC fox guys are going to be up in arms if the 275/17 gets set due to fender clearance.

Toyo and national will take the easy way out so I wouldn't plan on any "special needs" cases related to CMC....

[GlennCMC70]

if i recall, only 5 CMC-2 guys are on 17's.
Mitch, AL, Steve, Chuch S, Jeremy.
i seen no reason for anyone to change. fast lap of the weekend was set on a 16. and on a car w/ 230hp/310tq. a car w/ 12" 2 piston brakes.
there is a push for all of CMC to move to CMC-2. but its a push to get back to a single class.

[GlennCMC70]

Toyo and national will take the easy way out so I wouldn't plan on any "special needs" cases related to CMC....

over the last year or so, JWL and RF have a newfound respect for CMC.

[mitchntx]

Somehow you don't see how the tire rule might affect whetehr someone moves to 2 or back to 1.

whatever the tire may be, it will be the same tire for both. so what difference does it make now? none.

If it stays R888, then I'm definitely going back to 16s

If it goes to RA1, I'm pretty sure I'm going back to 16s based upon sidewall and weight.

So it does make a difference.

And asking us to make that decision today with so many variables and with an ambiguous "to help the directors make decisions for our group" doesn't help.

What decisions?

You talk of respect. You earn it. Its not issued at a drive through.

[Rob Liebbe]

so why would that affect Mitch? he's already on 17's? in fact, i'm fairly sure he has sold most of his 16's.
since you admitted you know nothing about the 16's due to not looking, why speculate on it? why add to the rumor mill?
since i only have 16's, i would be very sensitive to that possibility, and i'm not worried about that at all.

With what appears to be a push to move all CMC UP to -2....I wouldn't be so comfortable if I were you.

Think of it this way....how may 16" shod cars are left now?.... Likely FAR fewer than the number -2 cars running 17's. How do you propose that to TOYO to go back to building another RA1 size? It's a tough call. Given -2, FFR (could go back to 275's but are already on 17's) and AI are on 275's....Toyo could very easily say, "it makes no sense to start building 255/16 RA1's for us". That could leave CMC with 16" 888's or bump to 275 17's...

Either way, National needs to tell the CMC gang what the decision is soon so you can work our your rules changes as needed. I am sure the CMC fox guys are going to be up in arms if the 275/17 gets set due to fender clearance.

Toyo and national will take the easy way out so I wouldn't plan on any "special needs" cases related to CMC....

Matt is voicing my exact concern only I was trying not to spell it out to NASA "management" hoping not to give them any ideas about eliminating 16" RA1's. If I was Toyo, that's exactly what I would do.

[GlennCMC70]

i agree that is whats best for Toyo. i've said it before.
one thing you missed, Toyo wants to be the spec tire for CMC, as do many other tire manufactures. w/ Toyo knowing that, Toyo agreed to renegotiate the deal months ahead of time knowing NASA would be talking to other tire manufactures before the originally set negotiation date.
seems NASA has more pull w/ Toyo that you give them credit for. Toyo wants to be here. so they are willing to mold tires w/ a mold they already have. they are already invested in the tooling for it, its only going to make them more money to use it.

[MikeP99Z]

AI has a choice also - 275 17" or 275 18". Note that most AI cars are still on 17" because the 18" Toyos are $360 each unshaved...but, some have invested in 14" brake kits and 18" wheels.

$212 or whatever is bad enough for the 17" tire.

So, if Toyo is going to reproduce the RA1 - then they should have to do it in the available tire sizes for the spec tire series that they promote.

NASA management won't be too keen on Toyo just producing a 275/40/17 without a 255/16 or a 275/18.

Personally, I'd like to see AI opened up to any DOT tire.

[AllZWay]

I prefer to stick with the 16's in RA1's. I might buy a 17's for testing, but I still plan to run 16's.

I could live with the 888 if everyone is running the same tire.

[AI#97]

if i recall, only 5 CMC-2 guys are on 17's.
Mitch, AL, Steve, Chuch S, Jeremy.
i seen no reason for anyone to change. fast lap of the weekend was set on a 16. and on a car w/ 230hp/310tq. a car w/ 12" 2 piston brakes.
there is a push for all of CMC to move to CMC-2. but its a push to get back to a single class.

Here in TX...yeah. But look nationally and especially at Kali...


I was about to have a fire sale on my old 17" rims....but I think I will wait till a decision is posted so I can get a few extra buxx for these Konigs.

[AI#97]

Personally, I'd like to see AI opened up to any DOT tire.

This is a CMC discussion! ;)

I disagree though as I don't want to see costs go up unless Hoosier can get us the R6 at a toyo Ra1 price. If you aren't winning regularly, the tire bill will be WAY too much for the average AI racer and the class will whither and die...worse than it already is.

As for other manufacturers knocking on the door....which ones other than Toyo and Hoosier offer a DOT race tire that can fit the bill for Dry and wet conditions? None that I know of unless BFG would spec the KDW for a wet...

[GlennCMC70]

Here in TX...yeah. But look nationally and especially at Kali...

and what do you know about Cali other than speculation? do you know that they have some of the lowest combined CMC/CMC-2 car counts in the country other than Great Lakes Region?

[AI#97]

and what do you know about Cali other than speculation? do you know that they have some of the lowest combined CMC/CMC-2 car counts in the country other than Great Lakes Region?

That's an economy thing right now. Most of what I have read is they are practically ALL CMC2 or are headed that way. Car count is telling only of attendance, not what tire size they have chosen....right?!

[MikeP99Z]

The thread topic says nothing about CMC.

Opening AI up to other manufacturers allows a healthy competition and the ability for racers to get tire sponsorships. I believe that Toyo, Hoosier, Goodyear, Kumho, Hankook, and maybe BFG (I don't know too much about their new R1) all have a wet tire.

[Sidney]

Personally, I'd like to see AI opened up to any DOT tire.

Mike,

Have you walked past any SCCA American Sedan driver's trailer at any National Race? Do you have the finances for new sticker Hoosiers everytime you take to the track? Do you really want that for all your competitors?

For what it's worth: I don't know Mike from Adam. He may well have a toter home and be a brain surgeon from Houston. I've raced in open tire classes and bought used Hoosiers from the National front runners. Are used tires cheaper than RA1's or R888's? Yes. Do they last as long? Probably not. Are they as fast as sticker Hoosiers? Not even close. Open tire rules will turn AI into SM where the fields are obviously split between the Sunbelt boys and the guys without $7,500 motors. AI (or CMC for that matter) would split again between the guys running sticker Hoosiers and the guys mid pack on brand X tire.

Sidney Franklin
Bloomington, IL
CMC #64

[GlennCMC70]

very nice post Sidney.

[David Love AI27]

Personally, I'd like to see AI opened up to any DOT tire.

AMEN Brother

crap... off topic again... this is about CMC not the ugly step-sister

[GlennCMC70]

Personally, I'd like to see AI opened up to any DOT tire.

AMEN Brother

crap... off topic again... this is about CMC not the ugly step-sister

wrong, this thread is about tires.

on that note, SPEC is the only way to go, as long as loopholes are closed once they are identified.
case in point is SM not having a HP/TQ limit. ifthey did, those Sunbelt motors wouldn't be worth the oil put in them.

[MikeP99Z]

Yes Sidney. I'm an ex-SCCA Touring 2 racer. And yes, I ran sticker Hoosiers every weekend. Not a doctor, and no toter home (that would be nice though).

And I'm fine with a spec tire, I just don't want to spend money on the R888 in its current state. And I burn through RA1s almost as quickly as Hoosiers.

[David Love AI27]

AI would split again between the guys running sticker Hoosiers and the guys mid pack on brand X tire.

HELLO??? EVERY series is split between those with the time and money to run up front and those of us that run mid-pack... Rules are rules and it is your choice to read the rules and run in the series with rules you can live with...

Since Mikes comments were directed at AI and you run CMC, I'm not sure what your point is???

[Rsmith350]

Yes Sidney. I'm an ex-SCCA Touring 2 racer. And yes, I ran sticker Hoosiers every weekend. Not a doctor, and no totor home (that would be nice though).

And I'm fine with a spec tire, I just don't want to spend money on the R888 in its current state. And I burn through RA1s almost as quickly as Hoosiers.

Sums up the whole thread ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[David Love AI27]

Personally, I'd like to see AI opened up to any DOT tire.

AMEN Brother

crap... off topic again... this is about CMC not the ugly step-sister

wrong, this thread is about tires.


Cool... Amen brother... I vote that AI runs any DOT... I will throw as much support to Toyo as they throw to me.... NADA... Nothing... Zilch

[MikeP99Z]

My comment is directed at AI, and has nothing to do with CMC or CMC2 - leave spec alone in those classes, but, if I dump my car down to CMC2 I still don't want to buy R888s.

AI is not CMC cost containment or budget - you should see some of the AI masterpieces that have been built out there. I race AI on a CMC budget, but if I'm going to burn a set of tires every 1 to 2 weekends, I'd rather stick to the pavement.

Just my opinion.

[Sidney]

And I burn through RA1s almost as quickly as Hoosiers.

Mike,

Seriously? You use a set of shaved Toyo RA1's every weekend or two? I wonder if this is due to the heat you guys run in down there. I'm pretty sure that neither Robin Burnett nor Jay Andrew burn through tires like this but I'll check. When I ran AI (last few years) I could get 8 to 10 weekends out of a set so I can feel your pain if you're going through them that quick. As has been said many times before..."The RA1's suck but they suck for a long time." I guess not the same in your case.

To Dave's point: yes there will always be mid-pack guys but open tire rules just make this division even more obvious and painful to poor or new racers.

Sidney

[GlennCMC70]

we have 7 track sessions per weekend here, so that could be the difference.
at that rate, i get 4 weekends at best.

[MikeP99Z]

Two weekends max on 4/32 shaved - then they have nothing competitive left. And that's being nice rotating them. A 3350# car, driving style, and 160* asphalt temps all contribute.

[David Love AI27]

Two weekends max on 4/32 shaved - then they have nothing competitive left. And that's being nice rotating them. A 3350# car, driving style, and 160* asphalt temps all contribute.

Four weekends on 4/32 shave rotating and flipping. A 3350# car, driving style, and 160* asphalt temps all contribute

[AllZWay]

Two weekends max on 4/32 shaved - then they have nothing competitive left. And that's being nice rotating them. A 3350# car, driving style, and 160* asphalt temps all contribute.

I usually get 3-4 weekends out of a 4/32 shaved RA1.

[Adam Ginsberg]

Here in TX...yeah. But look nationally and especially at Kali...

and what do you know about Cali other than speculation? do you know that they have some of the lowest combined CMC/CMC-2 car counts in the country other than Great Lakes Region?

I somewhat hesitate to comment on anything pertaining to California, as some comments were shared that I shouldn't be posting in "your forum" (your, as in the TX AI/CMC forum).

However, I don't give a shit if people get sand in their manginas that I'm posting CA stuff in the TX forum - I am, after all, a former TX racer that enjoyed his time racing with everyone. And, I believe it's valuable that each region have an idea of how other regions operate - isn't that how we learn and improve? Take the good, drop the bad. Given that I've raced in 5 NASA regions (TX, SE, MW/GL, NorCal, SoCal) across the US, dismissing information isn't a smart idea.

Don't like it? No problem - don't read it. But you can't complain that TX is out of the loop regarding stuff CA is doing.

That said, yes, the car counts in CA have dropped significantly. There have been several factors at play:

1. 11.6% CA unemployment (as of June 2009)
2. Worst economy in some 70 or so years
3. People losing their homes and businesses
4. Mid-season Toyo tire change and long term 888 vs. RA1 uncertainty
5. CMC/CMC2 long term outlook
6. Costs to have a competitive Fox3/3rd Gen in CMC2
7. NorCal/SoCal CMC split

In SoCal, specifically, there are more -2 cars than CMC cars. Most of the CMC cars are in NorCal.

Even if Toyo brings back the RA1 in 16's for CMC (and I have no information either way), the real question is....are they/we only delaying the inevitable?

If the end-goal for Toyo is to stay the course with the R888 (which I suspect it is), but improve it over time, then going back to the RA1 makes no sense whatsoever.

I don't have any major issues with the R888's - as I've said before, so far, I've seen good life out of my 888's. I do, however, have issue with allowing 2 different tires in a series that requires a spec tire.

[AI#97]

I get 4 to 5 weekends on a set for racing, then a couple days at instruction events...however, I ran on tires from 2005 this weekend and still managed to do ok all things considered.

I too race AI on a CMC, or less, budget.

As for Toyo supporting us....this is the first year I spent money on tires since mid 2006....Toyo bought the rest so I am not seeing where the lack of love for Toyo is coming from David. Their contingency isn't bad at all...especially how deep in the pack it goes and that the tires wear so well and are at that magic $200 per tire price point. Hoosier's deal is good for the winner and that is about it really. Start figuring in a constant winner getting a Hoosier contract and the rest of the field gets hosed.

[Wirtz]

RA1s are "good" for 4 weekends or so for me. After that I still run them but don't expect much. That's alot of hell on a tire.

I agree and think Toyos support has been very good for the series. It is nice they pay so deep into the fields...

[Todd Covini]

For what it's worth: I don't know Mike from Adam.

No worries, they're basically the same. :lol:

(Pulls pins....quickly exits room)

Good discussion...

[MikeP99Z]

I abuse tires, Adam does not (although mine may stay round for longer...) :lol:

[Adam Ginsberg]

How come no one knows me from Mike?


I abuse tires, Adam does not (although mine may stay round for longer...) :lol:

Mine are only flat on the bottom.

[David Love AI27]

As for Toyo supporting us....this is the first year I spent money on tires since mid 2006....Toyo bought the rest so I am not seeing where the lack of love for Toyo is coming from David. Their contingency isn't bad at all...especially how deep in the pack it goes and that the tires wear so well and are at that magic $200 per tire price point. Hoosier's deal is good for the winner and that is about it really. Start figuring in a constant winner getting a Hoosier contract and the rest of the field gets hosed.

WHO IS THIS??? You were the biggest piss and moan crybaby when the 888s came out and YOU, YOURSELF even said you would switch to Hoosiers... you may not be gay but your damn sure Bi

You think that cornering the market, replacing a decent product (RA-1) with an inferior product (R-888) and charging more $$$ for said product is GOOD for the consumer (me)???

[mitchntx]

you may not be gay but your damn sure Bi



http://www.lawmotorsports.net/catcorn.jpg

[AI#97]

WHO IS THIS??? You were the biggest piss and moan crybaby when the 888s came out and YOU, YOURSELF even said you would switch to Hoosiers... you may not be gay but your damn sure Bi

You think that cornering the market, replacing a decent product (RA-1) with an inferior product (R-888) and charging more $$$ for said product is GOOD for the consumer (me)???

It's schitzophrenic actually...

David, yes, the R888 sucks...I feel we are past that and it's all behind us. We opened those veins, bled the foam from our mouths and made a stand we don't want them. NASA listened. Now, in my eyes, we are back to RA1....and no, I don't want hoosiers in AI either.

Only reason I was on the Hoosier bandwagon was making the switch to ST2 which is where I think that tire fits in.

If presented with a choice for 888 or ST2 and Hoosier...I go to ST2....primarily because I don't like any of those ST2 guys. I like my fellow AI racers and don't want to see them get hosed. I could care less about the group 7 a-holes....

Hopefully, that sheds a little light on the confusion of my stance???

[Sidney]

Guys,

Thanks for the tire life info...interesting. I'd say we're getting the same use/heat cycles up here.

As to the "Adam" comment, that was as in "Adam from Adam & Eve" Must be a Midwest saying.

Carry on,

Sidney

[michaelmosty]

Wow, I have missed alot today!! :shock: