I didnt delete it....

[GlennCMC70]

i didnt lock the thread. at one point i unlocked it and then locked it back since i didnt know who locked it.


Here is my answer and the same rational answer I have given Todd, Mr. Love, Donovan and anyone that has had the same issues. Apparently, YOU Glenn have too many ASSumptions about me and they are all wrong. Apparently there are a lot of people that think I’m a raging lunatic that just can’t be happy….again, you are wrong. I'm merely the only person it seems that doesn't talk behind people's backs and has no fear of telling it how it is...

So here it goes since you asked.

1. I have a serious problem with the wishy washy enforcement of the rules. We have them to keep order and that is my expectation. I also feel it is the expectation nationally which is going to be difficult for Todd in the coming months.

Examples... directors threatening to DQ a car because of a cowl panel, when a previous racer had a similar panel for two years.
I think your time frame is a little off, but fine. once it was pointed out to me that the 17 car was still that way, i pointed it out to the new owner the corrections that need to be made. once i get paid as an employee of NASA for performing car inspections is the day i'm in the wrong for missing an illegal part on the car. untill then, all the direcotrs do the best they can w/ the time they have. trust me, i'm all for 100% rules compliance. when Jerry owned the car, i dont think i was involved in the allowance of the part and didnt have knowlege of it till it was pointed out to me.

Another example would be not enforcing illegal modifications on cars because they were bought from former directors, regionally and nationally, so as not to ruffle feathers of the car owner.
i havent acted in this manner in any way. it has been pointed out to me that cars were bought from other regions w/ illegal parts on them. i will not fault a new car owner for having an illegal part (to some degree) when the car was purchased as a 100% compliant car. i will not hesitate to point out those issues and set a timeline for correction. not everyone is as mechanically savy as yourself. it would be different if a guy built the car himself and showed up. i'm forced to give the benifit of the doubt even when i dont want to.

How about the 23 other people fielding LEGAL cars? Seems to be a Cali thing that has migrated to TX? e-cams anyone?
to my knowlege none of the Texas car were running E-cams untill they became legal. other regions were and it was delt w/ amoung the directors. each region has the ability to run thier region anyway they see fit. off all the regions, Texas is known amoung other directors as the 100% by the book region. its seen as a negative thing from the POV of other regions.

So, to save one person a couple bucks or keep ONE person around, you piss off 23 others?....not smart or good for the series.
100% agree w/ this. are you refering to a particulare case?


Or, not enforcing a pass under double yellow at a national event when 2/3 of the field was penalized for it in 2008 nationals.
i 100% agree'ed w/ you at Nats. you decided to not file the paperwork. regardless of the reason, you didnt do it. you should have, and then you should have appealed if that failed. as much as the race director has the responsibility to do whats right, you as a racer should too. the right thing to do would be to file the paperwork. you didnt, so drop it.


My point is that I have no certainty WHAT rule will be enforced or when or for what reason. That is my rub with the current 3 directors and I have no faith any rule will be enforced. Contact rules being enforced is a joke in my mind because it really is a crap shoot what penalty will be given especially when two of the directors appear to have MOST of the contact. I might even question what actually gets turned into Clifton sometimes.
we are not required to involve Clifton. only if there is an appeal does it go to Clifton. also, if there is no director available who wasnt involved in the contact. once again, if there is a ruling that someone doesnt like, appeal. you have every right to quit over those feelings. and if i felt like you, i would quit too.



I’d probably even have to ask Todd how he is expected to enforce rules in the Rolex series? If he did what he did here over there, Penske would have him hanging from the nearest tree. So, is this a race series or a special type of HPDE in TX….? Best I can see it is a “ let’s get as many people to spend money here and make it LOOK like a race series.” So in essence, I feel cheated out of my money as I was sold that this is Racing with real racing rules, and it's apparently not.

2. Rules release date issue. I wanted the car for sale back in September while it's performance was fresh on everyone's mind and had a higher value. The unclear direction of rules changes and a terribly late release date had nearly ALL potential buyers holding onto their wallets as they were afraid to buy anything at all worried that it might be deemed illegal just after the sale. This was a poorly thought out effort with too little communication by Todd and the AI board and the length that it took to accomplish shows that there is a serious RIFT in what the AI group wants compared to what other think it should be. I still don’t believe Todd is the guy to save that situation and miss JWL’s strong, Tenured hand in that scenario. I wish you luck, you are going to need it.

3. What has caused grief in my life over the last 4 years? Well, I asked myself this question and thought about it for 3 full days. All my answers came back to the way Todd, Glenn and now AL choose to "interpret" the rules and run this region. Too many times have I gotten the explanation of "it's out of your control so don't worry about it." Well, that isn't an acceptable option when it comes to rules. You either enforce them or you don't. You can't call this a RACING series and pick and choose how to enforce the rules we should be living and dying by.
Tech in our region for AI is the laughing stock nationally.
look to your 200x-2009 AI Series Director to answer that. I am only officially appointed as a CMC Series Director. changes have been made, so it could get better.

You can't have it both ways because you can't keep track of what you ruled last time and it starts appearing VERY unfair to rest of the racers. As much as Adam and I always butted heads, he at least had the sack and the Will to enforce the rules as written. Jeremiah's DQ at nationals is a perfect example of Adam's dedication to enforce the written rule regardless of what others might think. While this made Adam out to be the bad guy, it kept the racers from having to drop $100 and ruin a relationship with their fellow racers to make sure the rules were enforced and were consistant. in a perfect world, your right. but the appeals and protest portion of the rules was put there for a reason, its not a perfect world. guess what? all racing series have this in place, even those who pay the officials to be there to do their job. your right, Adam has done a great job regionally and nationally.

Todd, Glenn and AL choose to enforce the rules to increase car count and make the drivers feel warm and fuzzy. To me, that is a spit in the face to the guys that show up and do it right and that just doesn't sit well with me.
i came into this series in 2005 w/ the same mindset. but like it or not, this is "for fun racing". so untill your the person looked at for the lack of increase in car count, you dont judge those who are. there are plenty of folks who do show up and do it right and are pretty happy w/ the car count to date. i was once opposed to inverts. i felt like i was getting penalized for running a good race. later i came to understand how important it was to do this. the point is, this isnt Profesional Racing. but thats OK, cause i'll take the BBQ's and parties and such that come along w/ the "for fun racing" as a fair trade to the "warm and fuzzy" actions of the directors. i'm sure i'm in the majority in that regard.

So, after those 3 days of "figuring it all out" and listening to Todd make his statement at the beginning of rookie day, I finally get it. This isn't run as a RACE series in TX. It's run as a group of guys allowed to pass in the corners and collect points for the fun of it. I'm here as a serious racer that expects events to be run like a RACE event. The fun factor that is AI/CMC TX happens off the track because of the people that are here and has NOTHING to do with the choices of how this series is run by our current management team.
sure it does! i bet you money that the Suntrust team does not hang out in the pits of the Gainsco team in the evening hours. sure, i bet both teams are really great folks, not unlike out guys here, but they dont party together. they dont glad hand after a race like we do either. they dont share in-car vids w/ one another on-line and they dont make Year in Review Vids for one another. i bet they never have a Rookie Day either. am i responsible for that? no. but if i ran things like you wanted, it would likely be a less relaxed atmosphere off track than it is now.

Until they realize that enforcing the rules correctly will bring more racers in or back than selective enforcment, we will be doomed to lose more racers and deal with "internet grief" for years to come.
once again, i agree w/ you. but thats not what got us to where we are today. Adam and Todd used the selective enforcement to get things going. there is a transition point. i like to think we have made that transition already. RM Region is still doing it, as is the GL region. the Mid Atlantic region also. i see a trend here of it working for so many regions. they all know here will be a period of transition coming.
for now, i feel pretty safe in saying the Texas has the highest level of rules enforcement/compliance than any region in NASA (AI/CMC).

So, I either choose to spend money in this series or I don't. I have chosen NOT to support something I can't count on. That being said, I have no reason to own an AI car anymore and it's for sale. I am exploring the possibility of ST2 and ST3 as they run a RACE series and enforce the rules….just don’t know if the car will be competitive there or not.

and thats great. i wish you luck in feeling you are on a more level playing field w/ ST2/3 cars than AI cars.



My parting thoughts to the directors:

Glenn, step back and quit being so full of yourself and learn to admit you are wrong and likely driving over your head in many situations.
your right. i'm not the best driver. i have made mistakes and i never claimed otherwise.

Maybe even take a lesson or two in Tact and work on your delivery…you aren’t in the Marines anymore man and you really offend a lot of people with your “style”.
i'll act as i see fit. if your feelings get hurt by the way i talk to you, sorry. tell me. its likely a misunderstanding. everyone is different, even me.

Seems EVERY issue you get involved in becomes an act of conflict as you have no ability to see if from the other side of the table. I can’t count on both hands or feet the number of times I have heard people express concern when driving door to door with you as they fear you are going to barge in and hit them. Try taking your car out of the trailer more often and look at the damage on it, then compare it to someone’s car like Wirtz or Burch and ask yourself, “why does my car look like this” and their cars look so good?
well its likely due to me not being able to afford to have body work done and the lack of ability on my part to do it myself. but as i recall, JB is responsible for some of my damage. he fixed his, i didnt. Wirtz had some pretty serious damage once too from hitting Rob. i have also had some nice damage from Adam. i'm not upset at all, dont read into it, but i've dished out alot less than i have recieved. i choose to follow the 50/50 rule from the CCR. i can count on one hand the number of contacts that are my fault. i've been hit at least 3 times that much.
so in short, i dont have a body man in the family, i dont have the funds to fix each and every issue, i dont have the time to learn a new trade, and it really doesnt bother me that my car is all banged up.

Rob’s post one time of “most of Glenn’s passes on me have been with the tires locked up…” should have been a wake up call for you that people don’t trust your driving.
i've had lots of wake-up calls. if folks dont trust me, they really need to talk to me. i'm open minded, i'll listen.

Please don’t use your position as “director” to manipulate the other racers in NOT calling you out as a questionable driver. Defending yourself for being involved in ANY contact whether fault or not is in direct difference to the CCR’s which frown on ANY contact whatsoever. Whether it was your fault or not, you put yourself in that situation and should be humble about damaging someone else's investment.
i'll never use my position as a director to do that. i have never done it, and i never will.
i have always been that way when its my fault. and i've never had anyone act otherwise to me when it was their fault. this comment has not merit at all.

oh, and if you are going to be a director, learn to act more professional by using spell check and proper grammar. It's sometimes difficult to take anyone seriously if they come across as a half-wit. Just sayin'.
yep, i suck at speelin and stuff. :wink: its been a lifelong problem of mine. i dont hide it and i'm long over being worried what anal people like you think about it. sorry if your offended, and sorry to anyone here who is too. i'll try harder to do better.



Todd/AL: Enforce the rules. Record Contact per the CCR’s and please take into account that situational rules enforcement while making one or two people feel better, in the long run pisses of far more people that built this series to the competitive region it is today. If you selectively enforce the rules, someday, racers are going to look at you and laugh when you do FINALLY try to enforce a trivial rule….like requiring a dash in an AI car for example.


It's comical that a director would enforce a cowl panel, but would NOT enforce a pass under yellow or notched frame rails on an AI car. How you expect someone to NOT be angry with that type of enforcement is honestly beyond me.
that is not me. so i'm sure you will agree it does not apply to me.

The lazy enforcement of the rules created the situation at Hallett with Wayne/Corey a few years ago and we lost a couple of VERY fast competitors because of it.
once again, before my time.

Same thing now with me, probably Burch, John, Skip and any serious racer making the significant investment to race here.
Skip quit over a penalty he was given. Burch sayd its due to money issues.

Please make it clear up front to anyone you lure into this series to NOT expect it to be run like a Pro Racing event. If you also haven’t figured it out, it seems like the folks that go to a National event have been treated to a significantly different level of expectations that TX doesn’t comply with…again, big problems with consistency. What you two constantly think is “no big deal” is actually a REALLY big deal to most RACERS and you make them feel as though you don’t take them seriously.
each region is run differntly, but they all agrre that Nats is the best run event, even over thier own. so Texas is really no differnt that others int he way in which we are run. but you wouldnt know that as you havent run at any event but Nationals and Texas.



I was dead serious when I pointed out that ½ of the racers listed on the 2006 AI/CMC Texas regional shirt no longer race with us. ½ of those missing racers have the same issues I have with management here so while I would commend you 3, just a little, for building the series to “potentially 57 points collecting drivers this year”, I would have to fault you for not KEEPING the 12 to 15 racers that gave up or choose NOT to race here anymore. It really appears to come down to “we don’t want them anyway because this is just all for fun”. Well, there are those that don’t see it that way and they were your customers. Think about that.

That’s about it. Good luck to you all.

please list the 12-15 racers who dont race w/ us now. i dont have those lists here w/ me in AZ. i bet most are not due to "managment issues.

[Al Fernandez]

I did the editing. Line by line going back and forth between two immovable opinions is pointless.

Matt, you've stated your opinion very clearly: you refuse to run with Texas AICMC as long as myself, Todd, and Glenn are on the officials roster. You think we as a collective are wishy washy with regards to rules enforcement and you cant play in this game any longer because you want absolute black and white enforcement as well as dramatically stepped up inspections. Thank you for your feedback.

[michaelmosty]

i dont have a body man in the family
Hey, how did I get drug into this? :wink:

[GlennCMC70]

i dont have a body man in the family
Hey, how did I get drug into this? :wink:

because i wish i did.

[GlennCMC70]

BTW - Matt, i've called. i want to talk w/ you.

[Fbody383]

I did the editing. Line by line going back and forth between two immovable opinions is pointless.

Al, thanks for the editing and putting it back up. I was more pissed about having the family fight taken down than the issue itself.

However, I'm not sure the gross discourse does us any good but I'd rather we err on the side of transparency and let the boys and girls make up their own minds.

** Remember what the impact to potential new racers can be **

Personally, I understand to a small degree where Matt is coming from; I personally believe we have a couple cars not in compliance with the simple reading of the rules. I'm not convinced I'm not one of them, nor do I necessarily believe there's a performance advantage.

The biggest problem with gray is keeping it all the same shade.

Regardless, I like this sandbox.

[David Love AI27]

I'd rather we err on the side of transparency

8)

[David Love AI27]

Hey, how did I get drugs into this?

DRUGS??... who ELSE is on drugs??

[AI#97]

BTW - Matt, i've called. i want to talk w/ you.

The feeling isn't mutual. as of 3 days ago, I was a happy puppy and just leaving quietly and you opened old wounds in my for sale thread. Too little too late...enjoy your sandbox. Probably best to leave things be dude.

I only wish I got the insight I got from Todd's statement at the rookie's day prior to November 2005. It would have changed my expectations from day one. My overly high expectations resulted in 4 years of brain ache and in reality, I should have been running A-sedan or rented 4 weekends in a grand am car. I just got sucked into the wrong sandbox. Live and learn.

[mitchntx]

** Remember what the impact to potential new racers can be **


I get an eye-full and ear-full of this routinely.

I seriously doubt that internet banter and rhetoric keeps folks away from the series.

I've been on these boards for 10+ years and moderated in some form or fashion for most of them.

No one will EVER be able to sanitize these forums. If you really think its possible, well, rookies ... :roll:

Everyone here has heard me say, here and in person, this is just the internet ... not real life. Treat it as such and your life will be a lot less stressful.

[Al Fernandez]

Everyone is allowed to have an opinion, but no one is allowed to post unsubstantiated allegations of cheating, of favoritism and other inapropirate behavior by officials such as telling you something in private and something different in public, etc. That is why your recent post was edited Matt.

If someone has a suspicion but no proof and you think we should be paying special attention, tell me in private. If someone has proof, bring it. If I'm the problem, bring it to NASA HQ. Either way this is not the place for spreading rumors or slandering someone without substantiating the claim.

[David Love AI27]

I did the editing.

I got this in an email... TODAY

Psalm 46:10
'Be Still and Know that I AM GOD'


OH, come on, now!??!?!?... it deserves at least a little smile...

[rleng1]

I'd rather we err on the side of transparency

8)

Cool, David, very cool. 8) 8) 8)

[GlennCMC70]

So Matt, what is the "statement" that Todd made at the Rookie day that set all this into motion? You keep refering to it, but i have no clue what it was. I wasnt there both days, so i could have easily missed it.

[David Love AI27]

So Matt, what is the "statement" that Todd made at the Rookie day that set all this into motion? You keep refering to it, but i have no clue what it was. I wasnt there both days, so i could have easily missed it.

HEHE... so Glenn.. when you were a kid, did you go around poking things with sticks??

nuttin but lub...

[GlennCMC70]

sure David..
i really do what to know what was said. otherwise i feel the need to resolve an issue w/out knowing what the issue is.

i'm really not being a smart ass w/ this one. i just what to know what was said.
i would have like to get this from him via a phone call, but he will not talk to me.

[michaelmosty]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFYBLwb3I84

Is that Mitch's cat in the background? :lol:

[David Love AI27]

sure David..
i really do what to know what was said. otherwise i feel the need to resolve an issue w/out knowing what the issue is.

i'm really not being a smart ass w/ this one. i just what to know what was said.
i would have like to get this from him via a phone call, but he will not talk to me.

I was just kidding around...

but on the serious side... let it go... there are some issues that cannot be resolved over the phone and especially over the forum... Matt and I have had a couple of very productive discussions when we met face to face. We both feel very much the same but his comments are more hardcore than mine. I'm trying VERY hard to stay out of the internet discussions because it made me physically ill after my rants a few months ago...

I love racing and I love the racers in this group. It has really hurt me to step back, but there are some principles involved that I'm not willing to concede....

[mitchntx]

Him not taking your calls ought to be a hint. Take it and stop already.

Both of you are showing your ass.

[AI#97]

Him not taking your calls ought to be a hint. Take it and stop already.

Both of you are showing your ass.

Actually, I will give Glenn "some" credit as he is actually taking a step to fix a problem I'm guessing he isn't fully up to speed on. I suppose Todd tried to understand it, and Al refuses to as he sees things only HIS way. he doesn't take criticism at all, and could care less what your view is. That is the main reason NO ONE in AI-TX wants him as their director regardless if the excuse is "nasatx budget cuts or streamlining by national"... or whichever excuse it is today... :roll: I realize they have bigger pictures to oversee nationally, but that is even more reason you DON'T want national directors to be your regional directors...ask an SCCA guy that question sometime.

Glenn, I hate to say it but you are wasting your time with me and at any attempt to try and change anything. Your point of a "transition period" is over is not accurate. I see the same crap today I saw in 2006, even worse in some areas because of the "bending or catering" of the rules. after Accepting and fostering mediocrity, there is no going back. If you want a humorous take on it, but fairly accurate as to where this country in general is going....watch the movie Idiocracy by Mike Judge. good stuff.

Everyone in this group is an adult, understood the rules and expectations of them as drivers before they became part of this group. "interpreting the rules" or making concessions to not hurt someone's feelings is just stupid reasoning. This group of racers has fun and parties together because of the PEOPLE WHO ARE IN THIS GROUP. Not because someone got a free pass or a director decided not to penalize them for a mistake per the rules. Personally, in my experience regionally, and especially nationally, it has been a detriment to moral because vocal people such as myself bitch about it publicly while the rest bitch about it in private and sour about creating more BS behind the scenes.

Transparency is good. Deleting posts, editing posts and ruling with an iron fist one minute and giving passes the next is just....well, dumb.

I'll remain to offer help to the group where I can, I'm just choosing not to support AL or Todd. As david said, there are some things people feel strongly about and you cannot change their minds.


Glenn, I'm still not talking to you though! :lol:

[mitchntx]

I'm just choosing not to support AL or Todd.


And neither am I. But they are just 2 people. Keep it in perspective.

In my deleted post I said just turn the flame down, put the car and yourself on a back burner. Like a kidney stone, this too shall pass.

Its what I plan to do.

[David Love AI27]

As david said, there are some things people feel strongly about and you cannot change their minds.

Thats David... with a capital "D", if you don't mind...

Isn't it funny how people focus on different issues... I'm just saying,

Take Michael's post for example

[rleng1]

Nice location, Mitch. :D

[mitchntx]

Nice location, Mitch. :D

Glad you realize its all about me, in spite of what Glenn or Matt tell you.

:wink:

[RichardP]

My overly high expectations resulted in 4 years of brain ache and in reality, I should have been running A-sedan or rented 4 weekends in a grand am car. I just got sucked into the wrong sandbox. Live and learn.


To think that there aren't similar or worse problems with every group that you could have or might run with in the future is... umm... naive at best.

Sorry you are not happy.


Richard P.

[Al Fernandez]

Al refuses to as he sees things only HIS way. he doesn't take criticism at all, and could care less what your view is. That is the main reason NO ONE in AI-TX wants him as their director

Matt, you couldnt be more wrong. Its not that I dont care what your view is, its that you've made it perfectly clear that its your way or the highway and that no amount of facts, explanations, or alternative perspectives will ever change your mind once its made up. So there is no point in me talking about any of your concerns with you because, as you've said, I'd be wasting my time.

To say no one in this group wants me as their director is your opinion and just another example of its Matts way or the highway. You're assuming everyone else has your opinion/experience/perspective, and that is flat wrong.

[Fbody383]

I seriously doubt that internet banter and rhetoric keeps folks away from the series.
The folks here have enough hutzpah to be anywhere. I'll give you it's probably not turning away 20 people... but 1 or 2 or 3? A year? That could add up.


No one will EVER be able to sanitize these forums. If you really think its possible, well, rookies ...
(Pardon the Buck Rogers reference from the Center of the Universe)

I don't need/want hospital-alcohol-in-the-air-squeaky-clean either and wasn't impying that.

And I don't necessarily have to like the management, series directors or sanctioning body, racers or anyone else to participate. It makes it a LOT easier and enjoyable though.

[Al Fernandez]

Well, thats exactly right David. The thing is, you cant make everyone happy. Matt wants 100% compliance by 100% of the cars, 100% of the time. Its unfortunate and I'll take the blame for him not being advised that that is not the NASA nor AICMC mentality.

Let me try to spell it out then for the others for whom its not too late...NASA and specifically AICMC is here to have fun racing. It is not here to be the closest thing to professional racing humanly possible.

This means we allow cars to compete that are not 100% compliant with the rules. Now, I wont let someone running up front have that leeway, but if you're in the back of the pack and you havent had time to get rid of that aftermarket sway bar that isnt CMC legal, you're still going to be allowed to run. You're going to get a "fix it" ticket, and we'll agree on a time frame for you to fix it, and we try to make sure everyone knows, but you're going to get to run. We absolutely do not simply ignore the issue, but we're not going to send someone home. Does that make the other guys at the back of the pack mad? Well, I doubt it because its much more fun to race against an inferior driver in a superior car than it is to hot lap by yourself. Its about the fun, and wheel to wheel racing is more fun than hot lapping, otherwise we'd still be in TT.

Matt would see that as wishy washy rules enforcement. I see that as just plain logical given that we are here to have fun.

The tech side is similar. We do not have the resources nor the time to be 100% certain every car is 100% legal. But let me assure you, if we did, the vast majority of you would not run with us! Take a look at SCCA's A-sedan runoff stories on their forum and read about engines being torn down to the crank! Do you want to take your engine home in a couple of crates? Of course not! We try to ensure a fair fight, but we're not going to devote half of your weekend and half of your racing budget to tech inspection. That would not be fun. So we do visual inspections, and dynos, and scales, etc. and we'll pick one or two or three rules per weekend and check every car against those.

Does that ensure 100% compliance by 100% of the cars 100% of the time? Of course not! There is no way we could do that and keep the race weekend fun. What we do do is throw the book at someone that is caught intentionally cheating in the hopes that the fear of being ousted is a sufficient deterrence from intentionally cheating. In my time that has happened once, and that guy lost his race license for a year. Race license! No wheel to wheel in any class for a whole year.

So, is our rules enforcement at FIA levels? Duh, no. Does it give reasonable drivers reasonable assurance that they have a fair fight? Hopefully.

On track contact... We do not issue the CCR penalty in absolute terms. I form incident review boards for everything other than no brainers and if I'm involved in the incident I dont participate in the review. Some of you have had the pleasant experience of participating in these and it isnt easy, is it? We review videos where possible, and interview drivers, and review the CCR. Then everything goes by Clifton to ensure he concurs. We have standard penalties for standard offenses using the CCR, section 27.11 except we tone down points 4 and 6 to just a DQ if its the drivers first at fault in a long time. A lot of times we'll add a probation period of anything from one race to three weekends where any at fault contact will result in a DQ or multiple suspensions and the drivers are made to clearly understand that. The biggest grey area is "damage" since NASA defines damage as something you have to repair to run or to pass the 50/50 rule...its subjective and the drivers involved have a lot of input as to whether they consider that small wrinkle "damage" or "a racing incident".

So does that mean everyone gets the exact same treatment for on track contact? No, it means everyone gets the same process but the result is different depending on a lot of variables. I think that is fair and less punishing than trying to make everything black and white.

Hopefully that helps to shed some light as to how we like to run things. You dont have to agree, but hopefully understanding them will help you decide if you would prefer to be here or not.

[mitchntx]

I seriously doubt that internet banter and rhetoric keeps folks away from the series.
The folks here have enough hutzpah to be anywhere. I'll give you it's probably not turning away 20 people... but 1 or 2 or 3? A year? That could add up.


You are right. But the question remains ... did those few have the "hutzpah" to be here in the first place?

Think about it ... if they get all pissed and offended from all this mindless and meaningless tripe that it makes them go run in SCCA, maybe we are the ones better off.

As bad as it is right now, it CAN be a LOT worse. Until you've tried to keep Strano and Gigliotti internet seperated, you ain't seen nuttin'!

[David Love AI27]

Well put Al...

BUT.. If you plan to go to Nationals you better be prepared for a whole new world of racing AND tech...

I think it would be cool to have a "Nationals Prep Day" for anyone who plans to go and has never been... All the former Nations participants can prep you on what to expect.. Glenn?

[David Love AI27]

Well put Al...

BUT.. If you plan to go to Nationals you better be prepared for a whole new world of racing AND tech...

I think it would be cool to have a "Nationals Prep Day" for anyone who plans to go and has never been... All the former Nationals participants can prep you on what to expect.. Glenn?

Cant edit... had to redo this way...

[GlennCMC70]

How did we get here? all i asked is "What did Todd say at the Rookie Day event?"

also, what list of names constitutes "NO ONE" Matt?

[MikeP99Z]

Read the rules, read the rules again, check the car for all portions of the rules. If you are going to surf the gray area, know what your surfing and have written substantiated documentation proving that you are correct.

Turn your car into tech and let them have at it - open book style. I know the rules for my class better than most tech inspectors, and can point them to the correct citation if needed. If someone does find something wrong with the car, then I'm more than happy to fix it.

You should be going into tech with confidence, not fear.

[David Love AI27]

How did we get here?

I believe you were poking with a stick...

[MikeP99Z]

It's the post place of the day. I'm looking to improve my post count so that I have more meaningful weight on my statements in internetland. :)

[GlennCMC70]

Well put Al...

BUT.. If you plan to go to Nationals you better be prepared for a whole new world of racing AND tech...

I think it would be cool to have a "Nationals Prep Day" for anyone who plans to go and has never been... All the former Nations participants can prep you on what to expect.. Glenn?

my Nationals prep is really no different than regional prep.
the pace is different. you have to keep the "big picture" (the Sunday 40 minute race) in mind. so for the Fri/Sat qual races, all you want is a good solid finish, but you must finish.

[mitchntx]

It's the post place of the day. I'm looking to improve my post count so that I have more meaningful weight on my statements in internetland. :)

Feeling better, I see. ;)

[David Love AI27]

Well put Al...

BUT.. If you plan to go to Nationals you better be prepared for a whole new world of racing AND tech...

I think it would be cool to have a "Nationals Prep Day" for anyone who plans to go and has never been... All the former Nations participants can prep you on what to expect.. Glenn?

my Nationals prep is really no different than regional prep.

that is my point... I do very basic regional prep. If I wouldn't have had Burch, I wouldn't have put down the lap times that I did.. and Glenn even you have to admit the level of tech is night/day over NASATX

[GlennCMC70]

Nationals Tech is night and day over Regional Tech, not just NASA TX.
Reason?
All the Tech guys at Nationals are not splitting thier time between, driving, running to tech to perform tech on thier class, officiate race results, perform any IRB's, set grid, check their own car for the next race, signing Toyo Forms, and the list goes on.
They sit in the Tech Shed all day and do Tech. and yes, its the way i wish NASA TX was run. but guess what????? we will never get there w/ less than 100 car (TOTAL) at an event. we need 200+ to get there. NASA does the best they can w/ what they have. the more they have, the better they "can".

[MikeP99Z]

It's the post place of the day. I'm looking to improve my post count so that I have more meaningful weight on my statements in internetland. :)

Feeling better, I see. ;)

Much, thank you. :D

[GlennCMC70]

man, i'm gonna have to get a dedicated stick for this.

[MikeP99Z]

Stick-slip?

"Stick slip refers to the fast movement that occurs between two sides of a fault when the two sides of the fault become unstuck. The rock becomes distorted, or bent, but holds its position until the earthquake occurs. When the rock snaps back into an unstrained position it is called elastic rebound. Stick-slip displacement on a fault radiates energy in the form of seismic waves, creating an earthquake."

or a forked stick since you're stuck in the desert, you dowser.

"One of the longest-running disagreements centers on dowsing, a supposed sixth sense that enables people to find underground water using a forked stick. There is no scientific reason why dowsing should work. Yet, it apparently works well enough and reliably enough to keep the practice alive."

[Al Fernandez]

Very true David, we step up tech at nationals on purpose. There is (for a lot of classes) real money on the line, and there is certainly a lot of bragging rights on the line. We therefore bring more resources and devote more time to tech...and I think its justified. We still wont tear your motor down to the crank though.

Since I'm on a bit of a roll, let me talk about flag infractions. In general we rely on the corner workers to call these in. The race director might see something from control, but in general what the corner worker says is it. Penalties for flag infractions are determined by the race director. For us here in Texas that is Clifton or his designee if he's unavailable. At nationals this year that was Todd for AI and Adam for CMC. In other words, Todd, myself, and Glenn are almost never involved in determining if a car blew a flag or if they did what the penalty is during races here in Texas. I myself was called in for a flag infraction and I walked up to Clifton to talk about it and ensure he would not go easy. He agreed and threw me a pretty steep penalty because, of all people, I should know better. Perfect.

While I'm here I'll give you another "whishy washy" rules situation. A while back CMC changed the interpretation of the air dam rule to include the radiator air deflector. The result was the air deflector had to be higher than previously. Next time out Glenn and I gathered a whole pile of cars into tech to check. Those that were close were measured multiple times. The winner of the race was something silly like 1/8" too low on one side. We let him sit there and worry about it for a while, then we handed him a fix it ticket. We could've DQd him and taken his win, which was his first by the way, and taken him out of the season championship (DQs are not dropable). We decided that would be far too punishing for something he honestly did not intend to do. It was an honest oversight IMHO. Did that make the 2nd place driver mad because it meant he didnt get the win? Well, hopefully not, and he didnt tell me if it did (he should have if it did!). I'd like to think everyone walked away realizing that the infraction wasnt the reason why that driver crossed the finish line first, and that given the recent rule change this was a good way to drive home a message without disenfranchising a driver. Was I wrong? Should I have DQd him? If you think so maybe my style of enforcement isnt for you.

Weight on the other hand is something you wont get a mulligan from me on. Why? Because the scales are there all day and because the rules are very clear and explicit regarding weights and dynos and because A LOT of drivers play the game of trying to come just to the edge of minimum each and every race. You want to play? Great! The price is a DQ if you're off target. Everyone knows this and makes their choice. Does coming in 2lbs under mean you won where otherwise you wouldnt have? Of course not, but you know what weight you need to be, you have the scales at your disposal to check, and you have the means to add and subtract weight. If the scales are not available of course we'll temper that down. Personally I dont want guys in the pits weighing fuel and siphoning fuel out and bla bla bla to get that last five pounds, so we use the scales quite a bit.

I could go on and on...but the point is we do not and will not go to a black and white rules enforcement and dramatic tech sessions. That is not, IMHO, in the best interest of the series. The promis you no one at the front will be allowed to run with something that gives them a performance advantage without the previous approval of all of the drivers, but there will be fix it tickets, there will be guys allowed to run with out of spec parts while they get their act and their lap times together, and there will be an emphasis on fun and friendship above absolute correctness. This is not F1 and we are racing for the hell of it. If what you are looking for is the closest thing to the pros including all of the hoops and hurdles and cost of rules enforcement and compliance then you probably need to keep looking.

You give a little, you take a little and what comes around goes around. I will do my best to publisize all of the decisions we make along the way along with who was involved. Hopefully that transparency will help and if nothing else give you guys more ammo with which to rib the other guys :D

[TJ Bain]

Looking at the fish bowl from the outside, this is club racing. I like the rules enforced pretty tightly too, but I don't rely on tech to do it regionally. That's why you make friends with your competitiors. Check out each other's cars and clear up any grey areas before it gets to the point of someone being pissed and wanting to throw paper.

Let's face it, we're not exactly in this for the prize money.

[AI#97]

Its unfortunate and I'll take the blame for him not being advised that that is not the NASA nor AICMC mentality.

Let me try to spell it out then for the others for whom its not too late...NASA and specifically AICMC is here to have fun racing. It is not here to be the closest thing to professional racing humanly possible.

This means we allow cars to compete that are not 100% compliant with the rules. Now, I wont let someone running up front have that leeway, but if you're in the back of the pack and you havent had time to get rid of that aftermarket sway bar that isnt CMC legal, you're still going to be allowed to run. You're going to get a "fix it" ticket, and we'll agree on a time frame for you to fix it, and we try to make sure everyone knows, but you're going to get to run. We absolutely do not simply ignore the issue, but we're not going to send someone home. Does that make the other guys at the back of the pack mad? Well, I doubt it because its much more fun to race against an inferior driver in a superior car than it is to hot lap by yourself. Its about the fun, and wheel to wheel racing is more fun than hot lapping, otherwise we'd still be in TT.



Glenn, this is the long version of Todd's statement at Rookie Day. This being said, for perspective racers getting into the series...I suggest you post this in the RULES verbatim, right under the 2010 change of the word "rules" to "Guidelines". Prevents a shit-ton of misunderstandings later and establishes that you better be prepared to be disappointed by the director's choices to enforce each rule differently for different people on different days.

Personally, I'm still pissed about the "allowances" or "fix it tickets" and the reasoning Todd gave me a few weeks ago. Not dinging Lindsay's car for the notched frame rails on day 1 at a national event and nullifying the race results from an illegal car that was OBVIOUSLY at an advantage was the wrong call even if the arguement was that Pat bought it from flaherty that way or it had been run regionally in Kali that way too. Of all people who KNOW the rules, S&S/Pat should have known better. I would have been fine with nullifying the results from Thursday's race in a DQ, (yes, a win for me) then allowing him to weld in material and race the rest of the weekend is a no brainer. Not nipping it in the bud Day one allowed all the rest of the crap to get out of hand, including the start of Sunday's race as he would NOT have been on the front row. I'd probably pull the track record from him too....but hey, that's just me. The second "no call" that rubs me raw is Corey's pass under double yellow taking back the pass under yellow the viper then gave back. Yep, confusing but on video, called in by corner workers and very bad under the rules. We all learned that lesson in 2008 that there is ZERO passes under yellow...PERIOD. Consistancy? Where was it? So, yeah, I feel robbed by Todd/AL's regional managment used at a national event...I realize that is going to happen in racing, but it most certainly doesn't mean I have to like it.

TJ, you are correct. Knowing your fellow racers and working together to enforce rules is key. However, relying on racers to police the rules also results in possible shady deals between racers and fosters LARGE areas of gray that causes frustration. It also throws wrenches in place when racers have to destroy their good relationships with their fellow racers and put down protests because the race director won't enforce a rule. I'm sure if any of us had to start calling our fellow racers out on the table for tech because of suspicions, the "just for fun" factor would be out the window in a heartbeat. To answer Glenn's question about why I didn't file the protest on the sunday race for Corey taking his position back under double yellow, it was that Todd/AL already told me they made up their minds and I'd waste $100, and to push the situation would have soured my relationship with corey. I valued that relationship with my fellow racer more than protesting my way to 2nd place instead of 3rd. It's not my responsibility to make that call. It's the director's responsibility to enforce that rule. I discussed that with Todd and he wouldn't admit error. Fine. Again, I don't have to like it or support it either.

As for letting "slower" guys run illegal cars....well, how does that make sense when we have inverted races twice a weekend? While it doesn't usually effect Toyo races, it does still affect season points battles. If they are always a backmarker and back there just having fun, why do they NEED illegal parts to continue to do so? I'd think helping them work harder with a legal car would better there skills and prop their ego rather than "they are letting me cheat so I don't look so slow".... :?: Hell, I'll donate my time to help them get there...legally and with better skills.

Al, your point of "just for fun" "racing".... I get it. However, I think the philosophy does more harm trying to fix issues to fix other issues in an attempt to manage chaos and overall, it pisses people off and the current situation instills fear for people to speak their minds....because when they do, they suffer my fate and get labeled as an asshole or dismissed by a director who is unwilling to admit fault. I think you aren't giving the racers in this region enough credit to be able to have fun off the track and still have a serious, viable "as close to pro-racing as possible" event. It is NASA PRO RACING.com right?

I'd put $1000 on the table that the racers in this group would have just as much fun, IF NOT MORE, if we had strict enforcement. It's the racers, their families and their friendships that make this stuff fun. Not the "help" we get by being lax on the rules. The frustration, the "bad internet" assumptions and opinions would simply go away with strict enforcement. The racers who fear we don't enforce contact strictly enough would start coming back/to the series when they aren't afraid well known offenders would be dealt with accordingly. Trust me, the saturday night BBQ at ECR and Hallett wouldn't change ONE bit. Those that choose not to socialize with us can still choose to not participate, and those of us that like each other don't have to fear avoiding another racer who got DQ'd because we filed a protest.


Here is a GREAT scenario to validate my point. 2006, last event of the year. Marvel and I were fighting for the regional championship down to the last race. during qual, I passed chris under waving yellow in the rain. I admitted it...however, nothing was going to be done about it, my Pole position would have stood, and it would have come down to the results of the last two races to determine the champ. This forced Chris to file a protest, which REALLY pissed me off, but I suppose I would have done the same thing with what was on the line. It created a LOT of animosity toward Chris for a long time but I eventually got over it....but Wow, Regional champ in my rookie year was taken away by a protest that should have been enforced by a director...yes it was Clifton, not Todd but the point was it wasn't strictly enforced.

Fast forward to James' mistake that would result in a non-droppable DQ. It would have cost him the regional championship. So, now we are up to "just for fun" racing again and the decision is overturned, albeit with a lot of input. I guarantee you SOMEONE felt pressured to keep their mouth shut and not protest...technically, they couldn't anyway as too much time had lapsed. In both scenarios, there is a considerable difference in Toyo bucks at the end of the season. so while the "fun" decision to make folks feel good at that moment felt good, it CERTAINLY did make a BIG change at the end of the season.

At the end of the day, you guys are in charge, think you are right and the perception is that you don't care for our input or reasoning regardless. I'm happy that you finally put in print above in bold what has NEVER been said....sadly, it's too late for me and I'm just too soured by it after having dealt with it for 4 years. Had that philosophy been voiced loud and clear from the beginning, I and others probably would have been much happier.....probably most not having to hear/see us bitch about it.

All I can ask at this point is that you reconsider....because I can't afford "big boy" Koni Challenge racing...but that doesn't stop you from being the cheap, damn close alternative.

Maybe I'm just trying to use too much reason?

[mitchntx]

TJ, you are correct. Knowing your fellow racers and working together to enforce rules is key. However, relying on racers to police the rules also results in possible shady deals between racers and fosters LARGE areas of gray that causes frustration. It also throws wrenches in place when racers have to destroy their good relationships with their fellow racers and put down protests because the race director won't enforce a rule. I'm sure if any of us had to start calling our fellow racers out on the table for tech because of suspicions, the "just for fun" factor would be out the window in a heartbeat. To answer Glenn's question about why I didn't file the protest on the sunday race for Corey taking his position back under double yellow, it was that Todd/AL already told me they made up their minds and I'd waste $100, and to push the situation would have soured my relationship with corey. I valued that relationship with my fellow racer more than protesting my way to 2nd place instead of 3rd. It's not my responsibility to make that call. It's the director's responsibility to enforce that rule. I discussed that with Todd and he wouldn't admit error. Fine. Again, I don't have to like it or support it either.


I hope to God that the directors read this paragraph and in particular the part highlighted.

I see "for the good of the series" preached here and at the track over and over.

And I have been told "submit the protest paperwork" on a couple of occasions. Typically followed by a smirk and an about-face. Its a simple and convenient cop-out to not to have to do anything.

Consider for a moment that when a racer comes to an official with information of interest, maybe its us thinking "for the good of the series" as well.

Matt's point is valid. I recall vividly how I felt at NPR when I was forced to remove my restrictor plate, have it measured, found legal and then sealed to the motor. I also recall vividly how it changed my view on this group of racers.

I knew in my heart of hearts I had done everything I could to field a legal car. How naive of me to think that my peer racers respected and trusted me enough to simply believe me.

[David Love AI27]

Very true David, we step up tech at nationals on purpose. There is (for a lot of classes) real money on the line, and there is certainly a lot of bragging rights on the line. We therefore bring more resources and devote more time to tech...

unlike Glenn... I was trying pet the kitty NOT poke it with a stick...

My point was: things are different at nationals... I was not SLAMMING NASATX (at least not in this case), just pointing out that there are differences. My wish is that ALL the drivers in AICMCTexas go to Nationals and show the rest of the country that the racers in Texas are "badass"

I wish my comments weren't ALWAYS percieved as negative...

(Glenn, I hope you know my PWS remarks are in fun... its just that getting between you and Matt is like walking into an ammo bunker full of TNT while holding a flaming torch)

[David Love AI27]

I knew in my heart of hearts I had done everything I could to field a legal car. How naive of me to think that my peer racers respected and trusted me enough to simply believe me.

I felt the same way when I was asked to provide a copy of my Dyno sheet 1/2 way through the season... I'm only REQUIRED to have one, not give a copy... BUT my biggest complaint was been QUESTIONED IN THE FIRST PLACE!!! screw "WTF", WHAT THE F@CK?!?!?

I can't count the times I have heard "we try to make it fun on the regional level" WHAT IS FUN ABOUT BEING QUESTIONED 3 or 4 TIMES DURING AN EVENT FOR A DYNO SHEET WHEN YOU HAVE THE SLOWEST F@CKING CAR IN THE FIELD!!!!

Maybe one of you directors can put a "touchy feely spin on that one"..

It was harassment, not fun, and it really pissed me off... and ruined my entire weekend...

I'm sure the spinmasters will find a reason it was GOOD FOR THE SERIES

[GlennCMC70]

Glenn, this is the long version of Todd's statement at Rookie Day. This being said, for perspective racers getting into the series...I suggest you post this in the RULES verbatim, right under the 2010 change of the word "rules" to "Guidelines". Prevents a shit-ton of misunderstandings later and establishes that you better be prepared to be disappointed by the director's choices to enforce each rule differently for different people on different days.
This should not be different than info you should have known since day one w/ AI/CMC in Texas w/ Todd in charge. this is not new news. i've known this all along.

Personally, I'm still pissed about the "allowances" or "fix it tickets" and the reasoning Todd gave me a few weeks ago.
Lets not read to much into this statement, but just in case you have, i'll add to it. if we have a great candidate for AI/CMC in DE's or TT, we will allow that person to run w/ us even if the car isnt 100% legal (what if its only 50% legal? likely not). that doesnt mean we will let them run that way untill his first win (like the Mid Atlantic guys do btw), but rather he's given a pretty short timeframe to comply, but as long as he's a back marker, it shouldnt be a major deal. dont think for a minute that a backmarker that has a 100% legal car, that we will allow then to install a non-legal part and run w/ us. that will get a big "hell no".

Not dinging Lindsay's car for the notched frame rails on day 1 at a national event and nullifying the race results from an illegal car that was OBVIOUSLY at an advantage was the wrong call even if the arguement was that Pat bought it from flaherty that way or it had been run regionally in Kali that way too. Of all people who KNOW the rules, S&S/Pat should have known better. I would have been fine with nullifying the results from Thursday's race in a DQ, (yes, a win for me) then allowing him to weld in material and race the rest of the weekend is a no brainer. Not nipping it in the bud Day one allowed all the rest of the crap to get out of hand, including the start of Sunday's race as he would NOT have been on the front row. I'd probably pull the track record from him too....but hey, that's just me. The second "no call" that rubs me raw is Corey's pass under double yellow taking back the pass under yellow the viper then gave back. Yep, confusing but on video, called in by corner workers and very bad under the rules. We all learned that lesson in 2008 that there is ZERO passes under yellow...PERIOD. Consistancy? Where was it? So, yeah, I feel robbed by Todd/AL's regional managment used at a national event...I realize that is going to happen in racing, but it most certainly doesn't mean I have to like it.
sounds like to me the right call was made. a racer figured out a mistake and corrected it. you had an advantage taken away and feel cheated. if the senario was to where you ended up w/ an advantage, i bet you would never said a word. pretty petty to be so pissed over guys doing the right thing and correcting a mistake w/ no outside influance to do so.



TJ, you are correct. Knowing your fellow racers and working together to enforce rules is key. However, relying on racers to police the rules also results in possible shady deals between racers and fosters LARGE areas of gray that causes frustration. It also throws wrenches in place when racers have to destroy their good relationships with their fellow racers and put down protests because the race director won't enforce a rule.
and is that what you call a friendship? someone who is wiling to cheat to beat you? you dont file a protest to protect that type of friendship? i'll file a protest against a friend anyday of the week (and yes i have - Nick Runyon). I wouldnt get mad if you filed one on me, although you just talking to me would likely save you the hassle. racing on track is just racing. part of that racing is also protests filed in the pits. i can separate that stuff from my off track friendships i have. same as if paperwork was filed against me. yes, the directors role is to catch those issues before the racers do, but it just doesnt happen that way.


I'm sure if any of us had to start calling our fellow racers out on the table for tech because of suspicions, the "just for fun" factor would be out the window in a heartbeat.
If we had to, then likely so. but the great thing about this level of racing is we all try our best to bring a legal car to the track. i have faith in my fellow racers that they will bring a legal car to the track just as they have the same faith in me. i could be willing to cheat to pay my bills and feed my family, but never to i could brag to my friends about how bad i beat those guys last weekend. in the end, thats all we really walk away from at this level - bragging rights.


To answer Glenn's question about why I didn't file the protest on the sunday race for Corey taking his position back under double yellow, it was that Todd/AL already told me they made up their minds and I'd waste $100, and to push the situation would have soured my relationship with corey. I valued that relationship with my fellow racer more than protesting my way to 2nd place instead of 3rd. It's not my responsibility to make that call. It's the director's responsibility to enforce that rule. I discussed that with Todd and he wouldn't admit error. Fine. Again, I don't have to like it or support it either.

Sounds like Todd did you a favor he didnt have to do. he knew Cory did the right thing. in other forms of racing, they would have told you to fill it out and put up the money just to fund the beer kitty.
there have been several issues that i just didnt agree w/ in any way and no amount of talking was/is going to change my mind. but at the end of the day i dont take it personal and i'm still friends w/ those guys no different than i was before. its that "seeing other's point of view" that you accused me of in a different post. you dont have to agree w/ it, but it helps if you can understand/see it. once agian Matt, your not the only racer in this world who feels he got the short end of the stick. Todd has likely been on the recieving end of that more times that he cares to admitt.


As for letting "slower" guys run illegal cars....well, how does that make sense when we have inverted races twice a weekend? While it doesn't usually effect Toyo races, it does still affect season points battles.
and that is where i 100% totally disagree w/ you. take a look at all the points sheets from 2005 to 2009 and show me where one driver finished lower in season points than where thier talent indicates they should have finished due to inverted races? you aint gonna find it. Inverts are the best thing for Grassroots racing. it keeps points battle interesting to the end and allows novice drivers a chance to get up to speed quicker than otherwise would be possible. inverts are a win/win deal.


If they are always a backmarker and back there just having fun, why do they NEED illegal parts to continue to do so? I'd think helping them work harder with a legal car would better there skills and prop their ego rather than "they are letting me cheat so I don't look so slow".... :?: Hell, I'll donate my time to help them get there...legally and with better skills.
Do you think anyone here w/ us is OK w/ running non-legal parts? who does this now? you are not the only racer that would donate their time to do this. i see it all the time. in fact, this shows your not a 100% lost cause. there is hope for you yet. :wink:
we also dont give timelines based on talent level. if the racer says "i'll never be able to comply w/ the rules" for whatever reason, we will likely tell them, OK, sorry, but you will have to run somewhere else.


Al, your point of "just for fun" "racing".... I get it. However, I think the philosophy does more harm trying to fix issues to fix other issues in an attempt to manage chaos and overall, it pisses people off and the current situation instills fear for people to speak their minds....because when they do, they suffer my fate and get labeled as an asshole or dismissed by a director who is unwilling to admit fault. I think you aren't giving the racers in this region enough credit to be able to have fun off the track and still have a serious, viable "as close to pro-racing as possible" event. It is NASA PRO RACING.com right?
i seriously do not think there is anyone here afraid to speak their mind. Texas AI/CMC just isnt known for that. i am willing to listen, but i think you are not. you keep talking about "we this" and "us that". who is the "we" and "us"? i hear alot of folks telling me and Al different that what you are saying. it would be one thing if i didnt hear anything, but i hear the opposite.
if you feel like Matt, let me know. i'll not hold it against you.


I'd put $1000 on the table that the racers in this group would have just as much fun, IF NOT MORE, if we had strict enforcement. It's the racers, their families and their friendships that make this stuff fun. Not the "help" we get by being lax on the rules. The frustration, the "bad internet" assumptions and opinions would simply go away with strict enforcement. The racers who fear we don't enforce contact strictly enough would start coming back/to the series when they aren't afraid well known offenders would be dealt with accordingly. Trust me, the saturday night BBQ at ECR and Hallett wouldn't change ONE bit. Those that choose not to socialize with us can still choose to not participate, and those of us that like each other don't have to fear avoiding another racer who got DQ'd because we filed a protest.


Here is a GREAT scenario to validate my point. 2006, last event of the year. Marvel and I were fighting for the regional championship down to the last race. during qual, I passed chris under waving yellow in the rain. I admitted it...however, nothing was going to be done about it, my Pole position would have stood, and it would have come down to the results of the last two races to determine the champ. This forced Chris to file a protest, which REALLY pissed me off, but I suppose I would have done the same thing with what was on the line. It created a LOT of animosity toward Chris for a long time but I eventually got over it....but Wow, Regional champ in my rookie year was taken away by a protest that should have been enforced by a director...yes it was Clifton, not Todd but the point was it wasn't strictly enforced.
Instead of being mad at Chris, you should have been mad at yourself. You made the first mistake - the pass. Clifton cannot enforce what he doesnt see or have called into him. You could have given up the pole yourself. You shouldnt have been upset over Chris doing what he's allowed to do "BY THE LETTER OF THE RULE BOOK", a thing in which you want. a thing that will not (from your POV) not change anything w/ our group, but yet it did w/ you. Sounds like you want other to be the bad guy on your behalf because you dont have the sack to do it yourself. but in reality, there should be a bad guy at all. racing is racing, and friendship is friendship. my friendship is never dictated by what happens while racing.


Fast forward to James' mistake that would result in a non-droppable DQ. It would have cost him the regional championship. So, now we are up to "just for fun" racing again and the decision is overturned, albeit with a lot of input. I guarantee you SOMEONE felt pressured to keep their mouth shut and not protest...technically, they couldn't anyway as too much time had lapsed. In both scenarios, there is a considerable difference in Toyo bucks at the end of the season. so while the "fun" decision to make folks feel good at that moment felt good, it CERTAINLY did make a BIG change at the end of the season.
i feel pretty sure when i say the everyone affected by the issue w/ James was 100% OK w/ it. it was also more than just an issue of "he didnt mean to do it". it was a poorly written rule that allowed for interpretation. it was promptly re-written to be more clear w/ its intent (verified by NASA HQ). the intent was to never prevent the DQ from being droppable in that case.



At the end of the day, you guys are in charge, think you are right and the perception is that you don't care for our input or reasoning regardless. I'm happy that you finally put in print above in bold what has NEVER been said....sadly, it's too late for me and I'm just too soured by it after having dealt with it for 4 years. Had that philosophy been voiced loud and clear from the beginning, I and others probably would have been much happier.....probably most not having to hear/see us bitch about it.

All I can ask at this point is that you reconsider....because I can't afford "big boy" Koni Challenge racing...but that doesn't stop you from being the cheap, damn close alternative.

Maybe I'm just trying to use too much reason?

possibly you assume you speak on the behalf of everyone. as best i can tell, we loose very few racrs due to the reasons you say. in fact, each year we gain more than we have ever lost in total due to your reasons. so w/ that track record in place, we will likely keep doing things the way we think works best. its working in every NASA Region as best i can tell.

[David Love AI27]

sorry Mitch, you were saying




TJ, you are correct. Knowing your fellow racers and working together to enforce rules is key. However, relying on racers to police the rules also results in possible shady deals between racers and fosters LARGE areas of gray that causes frustration. It also throws wrenches in place when racers have to destroy their good relationships with their fellow racers and put down protests because the race director won't enforce a rule. I'm sure if any of us had to start calling our fellow racers out on the table for tech because of suspicions, the "just for fun" factor would be out the window in a heartbeat. To answer Glenn's question about why I didn't file the protest on the sunday race for Corey taking his position back under double yellow, it was that Todd/AL already told me they made up their minds and I'd waste $100, and to push the situation would have soured my relationship with corey. I valued that relationship with my fellow racer more than protesting my way to 2nd place instead of 3rd. It's not my responsibility to make that call. It's the director's responsibility to enforce that rule. I discussed that with Todd and he wouldn't admit error. Fine. Again, I don't have to like it or support it either.


I hope to God that the directors read this paragraph and in particular the part highlighted.

I see "for the good of the series" preached here and at the track over and over.

And I have been told "submit the protest paperwork" on a couple of occasions. Typically followed by a smirk and an about-face. Its a simple and convenient cop-out to not to have to do anything.

Consider for a moment that when a racer comes to an official with information of interest, maybe its us thinking "for the good of the series" as well.

Matt's point is valid. I recall vividly how I felt at NPR when I was forced to remove my restrictor plate, have it measured, found legal and then sealed to the motor. I also recall vividly how it changed my view on this group of racers.

I knew in my heart of hearts I had done everything I could to field a legal car. How naive of me to think that my peer racers respected and trusted me enough to simply believe me.

[AI#97]

what is more disturbing glenn is 6 hours ago, you agree we are "out of the transition period", 3 hours ago AL Totally destroys that theory proving you both aren't on the same page, then you come back and start agreeing with AL. Which is it? Today? This hour? These are all things strict enforcement fixes. Why do you contradict AL/Todd, then turn around and defend them..I'm confused.

As for not having enough staff to do proper tech...? Poppycock! There are nearly 40 guys here willing to throw a helping hand. Make a list and we will check it. Hell, I think performed more tech this year than any AI/CMC director at events I wasn't even driving at. There are resources available...all you have to do is plan and ask. BTW, it's the director's responsibility to be the "enforcers" and bad guys at the track. It's what yo volunteer to do and are COMPENSATED for. Otherwise, you are holding a driver meeting after qual and setting grid. If it comes to that compared to someone instructing, maybe you should only get a $50 discount....? Just sayin'.


To further my point about racers being forced to be bad guys and police stuff....take a trip back to Wayne/Corey/Hallett...there is a prime example of inaction that resulted in a racer being left with no choice but to do what first came to mind. Wrong yes....but a situation created by inaction.

If this were a battle of the "rights"....all I ever hear for the current management theory is 1. It's good for the series. 2. It increases car count. While on my side of the table, I can and have listed several items that fix issues of safety, costs to racers, constistency of rules enforcement between regions and especially national events.....and the list goes on...and someone already wrote the book to show us how to do it.

I guess I am just too thick headed and logical for this stuff? :?

[GlennCMC70]

And I have been told "submit the protest paperwork" on a couple of occasions. Typically followed by a smirk and an about-face. Its a simple and convenient cop-out to not to have to do anything.
tell me when you have come to me, Al, or Todd and had 100% proof that a car was cheating and had that happen? i have to ask you to provide me an example of this happening please.

Consider for a moment that when a racer comes to an official with information of interest, maybe its us thinking "for the good of the series" as well.
i will always assume that is the case. all racers have the responsibility to do this. BUT, and i said BUT, we as directors can NOT go off half cocked and use "Well Glenn doesnt like the looks of your rear wing Eric!" as a reason to check something.
Conversly, dont think a series official is not thinking of the "for the good of the series" when the do or do not act on such things.


Matt's point is valid. I recall vividly how I felt at NPR when I was forced to remove my restrictor plate, have it measured, found legal and then sealed to the motor. I also recall vividly how it changed my view on this group of racers.
Trust me i know, i got the same treatment right along w/ you. Honestly, i think you got caught up in the net tossed out for me, but yes, you got the same treatment. The accuser had no evidence that out plates were not of the legal size, but we got checked anyways. So all "Half Cocked Covini" did in that case was what you dont want to see happen now to you. Covini looked like the bad guy. but if the $50 protest was put up, he can stand on the leg of "i have no option here, i am required by the rules to do this." Thats why we ask for the protest at times as its really the proceedure we are suposed to follow.


I knew in my heart of hearts I had done everything I could to field a legal car. How naive of me to think that my peer racers respected and trusted me enough to simply believe me.

[AI#97]

[sounds like to me the right call was made. a racer figured out a mistake and corrected it. you had an advantage taken away and feel cheated. if the senario was to where you ended up w/ an advantage, i bet you would never said a word. pretty petty to be so pissed over guys doing the right thing and correcting a mistake w/ no outside influance to do so.


.

The mistake wasn't corrected. The "plan" according to Todd was to put the top 5 cars in the air and DQ him (I think, Todd wasn't clear on that part, might have been a "fix it ticket") at the end of the champ race....he's admitted this to me. Bad "plan" as it had already fubar'd the results of the entire week.

If I were you Glenn, I wouldn't be so quick to defend your superiors....

edit: and since when is me showing up with a 100% legal car at a national event an advantage?! LOL!!!! Only "advantage" I probably got was Todd and AL appearing to be VERY favorable to "their TX guy"....something I NEVER expected or asked for. Probably the reason they feel so hurt for me challenging them on all this....?

[mitchntx]

tell me when you have come to me, Al, or Todd and had 100% proof that a car was cheating and had that happen? i have to ask you to provide me an example of this happening please.


Again, a nice cop-out.

How can I possibly have 100% proof of ANYTHING illegal unless I built it. Its a no win situation.



Trust me i know, i got the same treatment right along w/ you. Honestly, i think you got caught up in the net tossed out for me, but yes, you got the same treatment. The accuser had no evidence that out plates were not of the legal size, but we got checked anyways. So all "Half Cocked Covini" did in that case was what you dont want to see happen now to you. Covini looked like the bad guy. but if the $50 protest was put up, he can stand on the leg of "i have no option here, i am required by the rules to do this." Thats why we ask for the protest at times as its really the proceedure we are suposed to follow.


Somehow I posted about what happened to me and it turns out to be about you.

But ...

In this scenario, Covini would be the messenger. Any one with any self respect wouldn't shoot the messenger. And if you will read what I wrote, I specifically detail how I felt about my fellow racers after that incident and not the rules or rules enforcement.

So we are looking at ...

Paper work and a check ...
Spread rumors and innuendo ...
Say nothing and complain ...

So who wins?

But, if I come to you and say "I think Eric's wing is too high." and you casually investigate to either prove or disprove it, no one gets hurt.

[GlennCMC70]

what is more disturbing glenn is 6 hours ago, you agree we are "out of the transition period", 3 hours ago AL Totally destroys that theory proving you both aren't on the same page, then you come back and start agreeing with AL. Which is it? Today? This hour? These are all things strict enforcement fixes. Why do you contradict AL/Todd, then turn around and defend them..I'm confused.
we are out of the transition period. who here now runs an illegal car? i cant think of any. does that mean that at Round 1 of 2010 we dont get a CMC fox w/ a non-legal intake w/ a driver running 2:00 laps, and we tell him to piss off till your legal? hell no. we work w/ him, set a timeline and assist where we can. if he runs track record in qual? quess what, you can run w/ us, but as a fun run - no points.
pretty simple stuff Matt. we can what if all day long. what if Butterflies had machine guns? Grasshoppers wouldnt fuck w/ them. pretty clear.



As for not having enough staff to do proper tech...? Poppycock! There are nearly 40 guys here willing to throw a helping hand. Make a list and we will check it. Hell, I think performed more tech this year than any AI/CMC director at events I wasn't even driving at. There are resources available...all you have to do is plan and ask.
and i say bullshit. standing at the scales pushing cars on/off isnt tech.
and for the 40 guys, who do i pick to park thier car for the weekend? who do i ask to work for us w/ no comp? there has never been 40 guys at a single event (i think we hit 25 once). i've never seen you at tech w/ your suit on sweating your ass off doing tech. i know i have. pulled off the track early before on more than one occation to do it. i would think of asking another to do it.
i also think most of our guys (all except you) dont think its worth the effort.


BTW, it's the director's responsibility to be the "enforcers" and bad guys at the track. It's what yo volunteer to do and are COMPENSATED for. Otherwise, you are holding a driver meeting after qual and setting grid. If it comes to that compared to someone instructing, maybe you should only get a $50 discount....? Just sayin'.
and i wish you luck w/ the quality folks you get to step up and work that hard and take shit from folks like you for $50 when you start your own version of what you think NASA should be.
and if your not keeping track, Todd has done it for free for a very long time. I have also done it for free, and i'll be doing it again at Round 1 of 2010.



To further my point about racers being forced to be bad guys and police stuff....take a trip back to Wayne/Corey/Hallett...there is a prime example of inaction that resulted in a racer being left with no choice but to do what first came to mind. Wrong yes....but a situation created by inaction.
its funny... that was Waynes first race w/ us and look what happened. Corey's history w/ NASA is of no issue w/ Wayne. he knew it coming in. pretty much tells me he accepted it when he paid his entry fee. He did the crime, couldnt do the time, and hasnt come back. Corey got the longest probation ever handed out to an AI/CMC Texas racer from that too. the next move was to pull his comp license for 1 year.



If this were a battle of the "rights"....all I ever hear for the current management theory is 1. It's good for the series. 2. It increases car count.
like it or not, car count is king. we could run this thing 100% by the book of Matt White, and its possible you could be the only racer to show up. what fun is that? w/out high car count, the racing sucks, and the series falls on its face. but the opposite keeps happening. we are likely now the largest AI/CMC field in the country. we gotta go w/ what works.


While on my side of the table, I can and have listed several items that fix issues of safety, costs to racers, constistency of rules enforcement between regions and especially national events.....and the list goes on...and someone already wrote the book to show us how to do it.

I guess I am just too thick headed and logical for this stuff? :?

you logic is not the only answer. once again, there is more to it than your point of view.

[AI#97]

tell me when you have come to me, Al, or Todd and had 100% proof that a car was cheating and had that happen? i have to ask you to provide me an example of this happening please.


Again, a nice cop-out.

How can I possibly have 100% proof of ANYTHING illegal unless I built it. Its a no win situation.



Trust me i know, i got the same treatment right along w/ you. Honestly, i think you got caught up in the net tossed out for me, but yes, you got the same treatment. The accuser had no evidence that out plates were not of the legal size, but we got checked anyways. So all "Half Cocked Covini" did in that case was what you dont want to see happen now to you. Covini looked like the bad guy. but if the $50 protest was put up, he can stand on the leg of "i have no option here, i am required by the rules to do this." Thats why we ask for the protest at times as its really the proceedure we are suposed to follow.


Somehow I posted about what happened to me and it turns out to be about you.

But ...

In this scenario, Covini would be the messenger. Any one with any self respect wouldn't shoot the messenger. And if you will read what I wrote, I specifically detail how I felt about my fellow racers after that incident and not the rules or rules enforcement.

So we are looking at ...

Paper work and a check ...
Spread rumors and innuendo ...
Say nothing and complain ...

So who wins?

But, if I come to you and say "I think Eric's wing is too high." and you casually investigate to either prove or disprove it, no one gets hurt.

HOLD ON....WAIT A DAMN MINUTE!!! Are mitch and I sort of agreeing on something??????? Hell is cold and pigs are falling from the sky!!! :lol:

[GlennCMC70]

[sounds like to me the right call was made. a racer figured out a mistake and corrected it. you had an advantage taken away and feel cheated. if the senario was to where you ended up w/ an advantage, i bet you would never said a word. pretty petty to be so pissed over guys doing the right thing and correcting a mistake w/ no outside influance to do so.


.

The mistake wasn't corrected. The "plan" according to Todd was to put the top 5 cars in the air and DQ him (I think, Todd wasn't clear on that part, might have been a "fix it ticket") at the end of the champ race....he's admitted this to me. Bad "plan" as it had already fubar'd the results of the entire week.

If I were you Glenn, I wouldn't be so quick to defend your superiors....

edit: and since when is me showing up with a 100% legal car at a national event an advantage?! LOL!!!! Only "advantage" I probably got was Todd and AL appearing to be VERY favorable to "their TX guy"....something I NEVER expected or asked for. Probably the reason they feel so hurt for me challenging them on all this....?

the advantage was w/ regards to the yellow pass. sorry if that wasnt clear.

i'll not address the "knotched frame rail" issue. i have zero first hand knowlege of that.

[David Love AI27]

sorry Mitch, you were saying




TJ, you are correct. Knowing your fellow racers and working together to enforce rules is key. However, relying on racers to police the rules also results in possible shady deals between racers and fosters LARGE areas of gray that causes frustration. It also throws wrenches in place when racers have to destroy their good relationships with their fellow racers and put down protests because the race director won't enforce a rule. I'm sure if any of us had to start calling our fellow racers out on the table for tech because of suspicions, the "just for fun" factor would be out the window in a heartbeat. To answer Glenn's question about why I didn't file the protest on the sunday race for Corey taking his position back under double yellow, it was that Todd/AL already told me they made up their minds and I'd waste $100, and to push the situation would have soured my relationship with corey. I valued that relationship with my fellow racer more than protesting my way to 2nd place instead of 3rd. It's not my responsibility to make that call. It's the director's responsibility to enforce that rule. I discussed that with Todd and he wouldn't admit error. Fine. Again, I don't have to like it or support it either.


I hope to God that the directors read this paragraph and in particular the part highlighted.

I see "for the good of the series" preached here and at the track over and over.

And I have been told "submit the protest paperwork" on a couple of occasions. Typically followed by a smirk and an about-face. Its a simple and convenient cop-out to not to have to do anything.

Consider for a moment that when a racer comes to an official with information of interest, maybe its us thinking "for the good of the series" as well.

Matt's point is valid. I recall vividly how I felt at NPR when I was forced to remove my restrictor plate, have it measured, found legal and then sealed to the motor. I also recall vividly how it changed my view on this group of racers.

I knew in my heart of hearts I had done everything I could to field a legal car. How naive of me to think that my peer racers respected and trusted me enough to simply believe me.

[mitchntx]

HOLD ON....WAIT A DAMN MINUTE!!! Are mitch and I sort of agreeing on something??????? Hell is cold and pigs are falling from the sky!!! :lol:

Hell no ... I don;t want to have to sell all my shit ...

[AI#97]

[like it or not, car count is king. we could run this thing 100% by the book of Matt White, and its possible you could be the only racer to show up.

you logic is not the only answer. once again, there is more to it than your point of view.[/quote]

The "book" was written by NASA, don't see my name anywhere in it, thankfully....I'm just suggesting you read it and preach it and not rewrite it yourself!

I am STILL of the opinion that Strict enforcement won't change the fun factor or car count one bit. I do know the changes I propose will increase it by at least one! ;)

Have a nice day Glenn and watch for earthquakes!

[GlennCMC70]

tell me when you have come to me, Al, or Todd and had 100% proof that a car was cheating and had that happen? i have to ask you to provide me an example of this happening please.


Again, a nice cop-out.

How can I possibly have 100% proof of ANYTHING illegal unless I built it. Its a no win situation.



Trust me i know, i got the same treatment right along w/ you. Honestly, i think you got caught up in the net tossed out for me, but yes, you got the same treatment. The accuser had no evidence that out plates were not of the legal size, but we got checked anyways. So all "Half Cocked Covini" did in that case was what you dont want to see happen now to you. Covini looked like the bad guy. but if the $50 protest was put up, he can stand on the leg of "i have no option here, i am required by the rules to do this." Thats why we ask for the protest at times as its really the proceedure we are suposed to follow.


Somehow I posted about what happened to me and it turns out to be about you.

But ...

In this scenario, Covini would be the messenger. Any one with any self respect wouldn't shoot the messenger. And if you will read what I wrote, I specifically detail how I felt about my fellow racers after that incident and not the rules or rules enforcement.

So we are looking at ...

Paper work and a check ...
Spread rumors and innuendo ...
Say nothing and complain ...

So who wins?

But, if I come to you and say "I think Eric's wing is too high." and you casually investigate to either prove or disprove it, no one gets hurt.

sure you can 100% proof.
if a rule requires a white wheel and they got black, i'll trust you when you say "hey, he's got white wheels!". or i measured his wing w/ a tape, and its 10"s too tall. i'll act on that. but when you tell me his straightaway speed looks to be .25 mph to high, i'll smirk and say, pony up the form and money. you have to understand that.

as for our issue involving us and our restricotr plates, it was mearly an attempt to display that as i director, i too have been on the recieving end of things that even you dislike. there was no proof for Todd to do it. your opinon of the group changed as a result of his actions. you want me to do the same based on your "i think he's cheating" - act w/ not proof and have another race feel towards the group the very way you did that day.


Matt - answer the f'ing phone. this is just stupid.

[michaelmosty]

HOLD ON....WAIT A DAMN MINUTE!!! Are mitch and I sort of agreeing on something??????? Hell is cold and pigs are falling from the sky!!! :lol:

Hell no ... I don;t want to have to sell all my shit ...
You'll change your mind tomorrow. :P

[AI#97]

HOLD ON....WAIT A DAMN MINUTE!!! Are mitch and I sort of agreeing on something??????? Hell is cold and pigs are falling from the sky!!! :lol:

Hell no ... I don;t want to have to sell all my shit ...
You'll change your mind tomorrow. :P

I'm still trying to figure out how to fix MY forsale ad so it doesn't look like Bill Griffen is selling MY car....

Glenn, can you just delete all two or three threads you hosed up so I can post the correct one?

phone hasn't rang all day....don't know what you are talking about bro... Maybe it doesn't want to talk to you either.

[Al Fernandez]

Great Matt, like I said, point taken and thanks for your advice. BUT, for you and everyone else, that is not NASA's model. That isnt Glenn re-writting the rules, nor me. That is just not how NASA (at the HQ level, not Shannon) wants to run their show. Rules enforcement yes, but tempered by the situation at hand. NASA is not the SCCA, but running it with two hours of tech after every race is exactly what that would mean. We're just not going to go there. Full stop. Period. End of story. Aint going to happen. We will continue to make reasonable efforts to ensure rules compliance, we will make allowances to help the new guys get into the program, and we will not dedicate half of your race weekend to going through tech inspections.

By the way Matt, I dont feel "hurt" by you, or anyone else challenging anything I say, especially because I have never shown you (or anyone else that I know of) any favoritism. Why havent you mailed back your Nationals trophy and any other contingency awards? After all, you were not black flagged even though your car did not have a functioning tail light. Sounds to me like wishy washy rules enforcement of exactly the kind you should be ashamed to take advantage of. It wasnt done because we like you. You werent called in because it would really really suck to invest all that time and effort to have the racer's results ruined by such a stupid thing. Its not endangering anyone, nobody was right on your ass...let him keep going.

Mitch...I'm confused...you're with Matt on this enforcement thing, but the one time enforcement was pressed upon you it upset you? I dont understand the full story here. Also, you commented how much you like running in the SE...how long did your car spend in post race tech there?

[TJ Bain]

I am STILL of the opinion that Strict enforcement won't change the fun factor or car count one bit. I do know the changes I propose will increase it by at least one! ;)

Have a nice day Glenn and watch for earthquakes!

You wouldn't think so, but it just makes it a little more of a pain. Example, August at Mid-Ohio. They pull the top two to dyno. Alright! Sweet, free dyno time!... well, it's free but you need to stand out there in sun with high humidity and temps just short of 90* while they drive it up, strap it down, make the three pulls. Oh wait, that was for the guy who won, now do it all over again for the next car. That's after a 40 minute race where you sweat completely through your firesuit and all you want is to go put on a pair of dry underwear, sit in the shade, and drink a couple bottles of water.

All that to find out the car was 18RWHP under the limit because it's so hot out.

http://www.ploader.net/files/fae79a780c11f170337187f98af58341.jpg

PS- Not my golf cart. :lol:

[mitchntx]

Mitch...I'm confused...you're with Matt on this enforcement thing, but the one time enforcement was pressed upon you it upset you? I dont understand the full story here. Also, you commented how much you like running in the SE...how long did your car spend in post race tech there?

Glenn and I just spent a LONG time on the phone about this.

Let me try and explain better ...

At NPR my restrictor plate was removed, checked and then sealed to the motor based upon an accusation. Was there paper work or a check written? I haven't a clue. I don't even know who levied the accusation and it doesn't matter.

Had the messenger (either Todd or another racer) come and said I think your restrictor is too big, can I confirm it by the number on your dyno sheet and the number imprinted on the plate?

And did you buy the plates from a known vendor or did you make them yourself.

The visual documentation should have been plenty of evidence that I was 100% legal.

Granted, had I said I made them myself, that could have opened up even more questions.

Because I was naive, thinking this was all a gentleman's group, I was disappointed that my integrity was called into question and required a "tear down" to prove I wasn't cheating.

The number on the plate matching the number on the dyno sheet wasn't good enough. I was guilty till I could prove otherwise.

All of a sudden, it hit me like a ton of bricks that if I was being accused of cheating, me, the FNG, then that must be the way this group rolls. So I had better watch my back and be suspicious of any one snooping around my car. And to a degree, I still am today.

And its why I don't hang around other racer's cars unless invited.

It shouldn't be that way. What I think is nirvana is a director or any racer coming up to me and asking pointed questions about my legality and taking my word as truth and fact. I have nothing to hide, but the reality is its better to play the cards close to the chest, just to be safe.

Does that clarify?

This is at a regional level. The stakes are much higher at a national level.


Edit: Sorry ... glossed over the Tech question

It was the RM region and I spent about as much time in pre-Tech as we do here.

Post race inspection was very loose for the AI/CMC run group. But the season was already wrapped up.

The 944 guys were different as I recall because there was a close points battle.

[AI#97]

Great Matt, like I said, point taken and thanks for your advice. BUT, for you and everyone else, that is not NASA's model. That isnt Glenn re-writting the rules, nor me. That is just not how NASA (at the HQ level, not Shannon) wants to run their show. Rules enforcement yes, but tempered by the situation at hand. NASA is not the SCCA, but running it with two hours of tech after every race is exactly what that would mean. We're just not going to go there. Full stop. Period. End of story. Aint going to happen. We will continue to make reasonable efforts to ensure rules compliance, we will make allowances to help the new guys get into the program, and we will not dedicate half of your race weekend to going through tech inspections.

By the way Matt, I dont feel "hurt" by you, or anyone else challenging anything I say, especially because I have never shown you (or anyone else that I know of) any favoritism. Why havent you mailed back your Nationals trophy and any other contingency awards? After all, you were not black flagged even though your car did not have a functioning tail light. Sounds to me like wishy washy rules enforcement of exactly the kind you should be ashamed to take advantage of. It wasnt done because we like you. You werent called in because it would really really suck to invest all that time and effort to have the racer's results ruined by such a stupid thing. Its not endangering anyone, nobody was right on your ass...let him keep going.

Mitch...I'm confused...you're with Matt on this enforcement thing, but the one time enforcement was pressed upon you it upset you? I dont understand the full story here. Also, you commented how much you like running in the SE...how long did your car spend in post race tech there?

Hmmm, can't seem to find my electronic copy of the 2009 AI rules as the 2010 rules are now posted only....but I distinctly remember there being a specific rule stating "the car must START the race with one operating tail light"...never mentions anything about finishing with it and I've actually seen cars with switches to turn them off during the race. Since nobody was verifying brake light operation in grid, or have ever defined when the race "starts" as taking the green flag or whether it is when the clock starts, ie, cars rolling out of grid, as it pertains to this rule...., something about no leg to stand on comes to mind....?

Actually can't find anything in the 2010 AI rules regarding it and here is what the 2010 CCR states.

15.15 Lights
All non-formula cars must have at least one (1) operating red brake light visible from the rear of the car, unless otherwise stated as optional (or prohibited) by the specific class rules. All formula cars should have a red tail light. All cars must have at least one functioning red taillight, red brake light, and adequate headlights when competing in night races. Except during night races, all lights must be covered with tape. Brake
lights shall not be covered with tape or have their function altered or purposely hindered in any way.
All brake lights shall only be activated by a switch, which indicates the application of the braking system. Brake light switches and activation systems shall function so as to indicate the moment that the brake pedal engages the brakes. No adjustment to allow for early signals, false signals, or late signals of braking is permitted, unless superseded
by the class rules. Additionally, this rule applies to all vehicles that utilize brake lights in a class where brake lights are optional.

Pretty sure I would have had a defensible position for them failing during the race. However, had I been DQ'd for a mistake or rules enfraction, I might not have been happy about it, but it's my fault for the mistake and I would have taken my lumps. Only way he could have gotten me was under 5.2 of the 2010 rules...won't bore you with that one.



As for NASA's "intent" "tempered by the situation at hand"....never saw that in the rules anywhere. Probably not what the Likes of Dean Martin, Ross Murray or Pat Lindsay expected when they arrive at an event, national or regional. Probably not what someone expects when they buy a car and meet us AFTER they show up to an event having only read the rules posted on the national site either.

Just points to ponder about the flaws in the "plan".....

[mitchntx]

http://www.ploader.net/files/fae79a780c11f170337187f98af58341.jpg

PS- Not my golf cart. :lol:

What about the hood ornament? :shock:

[AI#97]

I am STILL of the opinion that Strict enforcement won't change the fun factor or car count one bit. I do know the changes I propose will increase it by at least one! ;)

Have a nice day Glenn and watch for earthquakes!

You wouldn't think so, but it just makes it a little more of a pain. Example, August at Mid-Ohio. They pull the top two to dyno. Alright! Sweet, free dyno time!... well, it's free but you need to stand out there in sun with high humidity and temps just short of 90* while they drive it up, strap it down, make the three pulls. Oh wait, that was for the guy who won, now do it all over again for the next car. That's after a 40 minute race where you sweat completely through your firesuit and all you want is to go put on a pair of dry underwear, sit in the shade, and drink a couple bottles of water.

All that to find out the car was 18RWHP under the limit because it's so hot out.

http://www.ploader.net/files/fae79a780c11f170337187f98af58341.jpg

PS- Not my golf cart. :lol:

have you been to a race in Texas in August?! ;) Just tell me that you remembered DeSalvo's mistake of shutting the car off while waiting for the dyno! ;)

[GlennCMC70]

i'm pretty sure Matt, that your for sale thread is in the state it was before i came along. Mitch and Mike can be asked to delete those posts they made, if you want to ask them.
G/L w/ the sale.

[David Love AI27]

http://www.ploader.net/files/fae79a780c11f170337187f98af58341.jpg

PS- Not my golf cart. :lol:

What about the hood ornament? :shock:

Great minds think alike...

[Al Fernandez]

All non-formula cars must have at least one (1) operating red brake light visible from the rear of the car, unless otherwise stated as optional (or prohibited) by the specific class rules.

Pretty black and white to me. Your car did not have a tail light. Doesnt matter when it broke, it didnt have one at the time it was called in by a corner worker. Automatic black flag for noncompliance with the CCR in a 100% rules enforcement situation. Feel free to stand on that alleged leg of yours post race with an appeal, the race is over and at best you would've gotten the position you were in at the time, which wasnt third. Sounds to me like you're taking advantage of exactly what you're advocating shouldnt happen.

Also, wasnt it you that stated that asking people to volunteer their time without compensation was ludicrous, yet that is your solution to having sufficient resources to conduct your pro league level tech inspections? So, which is it...can we ask for volunteers or cant we? 8) Besides, that is only one aspect of why we cant...the time commitment for the racers is equally if not more important. At nats we spent over 1.5hrs in post race tech. You really want to spend 3hrs out of every race weekend in post race tech for our two races? You really think that will attract drivers? I dont, and neither does NASA.

[GlennCMC70]

phone hasn't rang all day....don't know what you are talking about bro... Maybe it doesn't want to talk to you either.

i called two times yesterday and you said you wouldnt take my calls. ball is in your court. i'm an hour behind you time zone wise.
817-301-5224.

[AI#97]

All non-formula cars must have at least one (1) operating red brake light visible from the rear of the car, unless otherwise stated as optional (or prohibited) by the specific class rules.

Pretty black and white to me. Your car did not have a tail light. Doesnt matter when it broke, it didnt have one at the time it was called in by a corner worker. Automatic black flag for noncompliance with the CCR in a 100% rules enforcement situation. Feel free to stand on that alleged leg of yours post race with an appeal, the race is over and at best you would've gotten the position you were in at the time, which wasnt third. Sounds to me like you're taking advantage of exactly what you're advocating shouldnt happen.

Also, wasnt it you that stated that asking people to volunteer their time without compensation was ludicrous, yet that is your solution to having sufficient resources to conduct your pro league level tech inspections? So, which is it...can we ask for volunteers or cant we? 8) Besides, that is only one aspect of why we cant...the time commitment for the racers is equally if not more important. At nats we spent over 1.5hrs in post race tech. You really want to spend 3hrs out of every race weekend in post race tech for our two races? You really think that will attract drivers? I dont, and neither does NASA.

I was referring to Instructors who spend another 20 to 30 minutes in a car usually right after our race in our race suits...so if you'd like to compare YOU taking the suit off and telling war stories from the last race to someone WORKING in the heat...that's your gig. BTW, the top 5 cars/racers are already in Tech...form a "tech team", AI inspects CMC, CMC inspects AI...problem solved. As far as asking, try it sometime, you might be surprised by the response of the great racers in this group. Please don't base your expectations on what I would probably tell you or what you THINK I would tell you. You've asked for solutions in the past, there ya go.

Good to know on YOUR interpretation of the brake light rule...however, I'd have to flip a coin as to what your NEXT ruling on that rule would be possibly based on time of day or weather condition...?

Al, my final point on ALL of this is I for one, and probably SEVERAL other AI racers don't have the confidence that you or Todd would choose to enforce 2010 AI rule 2.0, paragraph two, if that situation ever presented itself again even though I am sure that rule was written specifically in response to this year's start. That alone prevents me from supporting ANY decision you guys make, and maybe you can respect that. Other's mileage may vary with that one but when it comes right down to it, I don't trust or have faith in you to be my AI director. If that really is the NASA way, they REALLY need to re-iterate that in the rules CLEARLY instead of after the fact, AFTER racers spend money to be here. Comes across as a bait and switch and the attitude conveyed by the directors reinforces the perception of "look, you have a CMC/AI car, why would you leave? so just shut up and either race or don't...we keep getting more suckers to race with us anyway". Hell, in the dirt track world, that would probably get your tires slashed in the parking lot! but that ain't NASA I guess.

Sorry Glenn, seemed like you were talking about today...in reality, I like it when directors finally put things in writing so there isn't public/private conversations. You know I'm all about the black and white! ;)

[TJ Bain]

have you been to a race in Texas in August?! ;) Just tell me that you remembered DeSalvo's mistake of shutting the car off while waiting for the dyno! ;)

Nope, not really interested either unless you guys get so many cars that you have a cash pay out. I'd have to buy a cool shirt just to think about it. :lol:

No issue with shutting it off. It runs 220-240 all race when it's that hot depending on traffic and I have to remind the dyno operator to turn the fan on before he starts pulling. First pull was 210, last pull was 240+. :shock: I just can't find the motivation to buy a bigger radiator. Stock rads FTW!

And, I don't remember who's hood ornament that was, but it didn't come with the golf cart. :lol:

[MikeP99Z]

And, I don't remember who's hood ornament that was, but it didn't come with the golf cart. :lol:

To bad, golf cart rentals at Mid-O would be a premium if it were.

[MikeP99Z]

Today was a fun day on the forum. I'm glad we resolved everything and that everyone is happy. :D

Looking forward to a productive 2010 season where rules are rules, the passing is clean, and Mosty keeps his wrong hole and stick to himself. :lol:

[AI#97]

Nope, not really interested either unless you guys get so many cars that you have a cash pay out. I'd have to buy a cool shirt just to think about it. :lol:



If you make Hallett, you're going to need one. However, dousing yourself with 3 cold bottles of water on grid works pretty good for the 20 minute races...then hose down with 3 more post race.

In August 06', burch cut his head getting out of his car in tech and the whole paddock panicked. We sat in our cars in 105 degree heat, 60% humidity and cars running for like 20 minutes. My shoe melted to the floor board. ended up walking around with an 8lb bag of ice on my shoulders for 4 hours and was a space cadet till about 8pm. Heat exhaustion is a PITA!!!!

For the prices some tracks charge for carts, they SHOULD come with "hood ornaments"!

[Al Fernandez]

To ask someone to "help out" without compensation for doing so is as retarded as having our regional website done and then not paying for it.

Well what do you know Matt, it was you that said asking for people to work without compensation is retarded. I do ask for exactly that though. Every race weekend I ask guys to help with whatever needs to be done. Hell, I've even asked you once or twice when you didnt have your car. Guess I am being retarded...or am I since apparently now it is not only not retarded, it is what you're suggesting as the solution for having enough human resources at tech?

Tech is a necessary evil of our hobby because we all want to know we're going into a fair fight. That said, I am confident nobody except apparently you wants to spend 1.5hrs plus after each race in the tech shed either tech-ing other cars or disassembling their car for it to be inspected. If that doesnt meet your expectations of how rigorous tech should be, fine, duly noted, but until NASA HQ tells me to spend that kind of time and have that kind of vehicle disassembly, it isnt going to happen. Personally I am damn glad because I would much rather be in the paddock chatting about the race with my friends than in the tech area taking apart my car to prove it is legal.

As far as enforcing AI rules 2.0 paragraph two...well, that section is actually all about good sportsmanship. If you want I might be able to dig up the email or PM I sent you a while back advising you that you would be sanctioned under NASA's good sportsmanship rules if you didnt cut out whatever it was you were doing at the time. I know of several cases where drivers were actually penalized under good sportsmanship rules. What's your point?

[AI#97]

Al, consider this for a moment as a comparison why the "Nasa Model" is out of date or out of touch with today. I know you haven't been to one of these events so please just hear me out.

24 hours of lemons.

The rule book could be printed on 2 8.5x11 sheets of paper, however it is growing for safety clarifications. there are no clear definitions of what penalties will be assessed for certain acts of hoonage (actual word they use) or worries about tear downs for non-compliance.

However, 500 drivers showed up at the last single houston event, about 1/2 were NASA/SCCA racers, other 1/2 don't own race cars and have NEVER been on track before or don't race....a small few have left NASA even and race there, and even more have probably left the SCCA. This series has been on good morning america and seems to have regular 4 or 5 page coverage in GRM.....

Now, consider penalties assessed at these events for passing under yellow or contact. Pretty much the only rules that get enforced...because those are really the only two rules. these penalties involve such things as tar and feathering, sitting in a plastic dog house for 30 minutes, stripping down to the nomex and reading a bible of hoonage on the hood of your car, prancing around the paddock in a diaper in a congo line with the rest of your team or the best, having racoon piss poured onto your hand while wearing lipstick running around the paddock looking for a stuffed teddy bear....oh, BTW, your race car could be crushed mid way through the race too. Average entry cost per driver on a 4 driver team runs in the 600 to 800 dollar range, most teams are now running 3 or 4 events per year. The series has grown from 6 events in 2007 to something like 24 events this next year. there has even been a sister series called chump car started with something like 14 events next year. Of those 38 events, I think there are 8 or 10 in NASATX's back yard.

My point, is where is the fear of rules enforcement in those series? How are they growing so fast? Why is NASA car count down? these are all questions You, Todd and National SHOULD be asking themselves. Is it safe to ask if the fear that strict enforcement directly equals to lower car counts is still valid or not.

Is it so wrong for me to point out that the NASA model is probably 5 years out of date and could safely use a new model of strict rule enforcement? Is it so wrong for you to even try and consider it? If so, then yeah, jerk my ticket man. I'll go play at HPDE's and run lemons events. this seems to be the normal response for people that question why anyway so I suppose I shouldn't ask for you to consider change now. yes we are all happy we don't get torn down after every race, but you make it seem like enforcing the rules NASA took so long to write is taboo and runs people off, personally, I've seen the direct opposite. Weren't these rules designed to steal people from the SCCA....they have people willing to be torn down and don't seem to be hurting for car counts. Trying to tear me down and villify me for pointing out how things could be better with very little effort or blowing out of proportion what racers who challenge you say takes no steps forward for making things better. The perception (there's that word again) is that you dismiss anything that requires more effort of our directors and routinely turn it into an excuse validated by "we are just here to have fun". Mitch might call that a cop out?

BTW, the same guys that stayed late at the ECR saturday night BBQ were the hardest partying wack jobs in the paddock at lemons....surrounded by 2 to 300 other wackjobs eating crawfish and drinking beer till 3am.

I do agree this thread has been good to some extent, but it has also shown the true nature of some folks. Yes, tempers flare, but when some of the best ideas and offers of making things better are presented, instead of moving forward with some of the ideas, it turns into a "he said, they said" muck slinging contest usually ending in a banning, editing post or deleted post. Why? History of this group has shown that every time we have ruffled feathers, usually 3 or 4 events later, someone sees the light and things actually improve.

Anyway, do what You feel You need to do AL...all I ask is that you give 10 minutes to consider things COULD need to change. Do it for your customers, current, past and future!

[AI#97]

Tech is a necessary evil of our hobby because we all want to know we're going into a fair fight. That said, I am confident nobody except apparently you wants to spend 1.5hrs plus after each race in the tech shed either tech-ing other cars or disassembling their car for it to be inspected. If that doesnt meet your expectations of how rigorous tech should be, fine, duly noted, but until NASA HQ tells me to spend that kind of time and have that kind of vehicle disassembly, it isnt going to happen. Personally I am damn glad because I would much rather be in the paddock chatting about the race with my friends than in the tech area taking apart my car to prove it is legal.
?

Al, I think you are confusing my points....there aren't any "tear down" rules in our rule book. Thank God. I'm not asking you to go tear down a car post race. Come back in from left field...I too don't want the SCCA type of crap. BTW, in reference to your comment about the 1.5 hours in tech at Utah...a good 20 to 30 minutes of that was our teams going back to the paddock to get tools, another 30 minutes was me asking if they were done and if I could be released as no-one had been near the car or doing anything for that long....so could it REALLY have just been 30 minutes? Maybe?

[michaelmosty]

LeMons is popular b/c people race cheap piles of crap. They can also race without having any experience or common sense in the world. This is why it is so appealing to Americans. :lol:
I love racing LeMons and plan to continue for a long time, but it isn't as cool as CMC Racing!!! 8)

[David Love AI27]

LeMons is popular b/c people race cheap piles of crap. They can also race without having any experience or common sense in the world.

AND if there is CONTACT or OVERLY AGRESSIVE driving you are pulled off the track and must answer to a judge who will probably ask "WHY ARE YOU DRIVING LIKE AN IDIOT?"

NASATX answer: "If you pull (black flag) someone for contact they will finish last and mess up their points" SO WHAT?

Honestly, I can put up will everything else that is going on... The main reason I'm getting out is the amount of contact last year. Even my own son took out BL and that shouldn't have happened...

Lets talk transparency! Is there a record of ALL contact from 2009, 2008,2007? I would like to see them. A list should be published before EVERY event as to the driver's current status. I've been told that publishing this information would "leave the offending driver open to attack from other drivers"... REALLY!?!? What you are saying is that Rob is such an a$$hole that he would drive Glenn harder if he knew Glenn was on the verg of having his license pulled?? REALLY!?!? I kinda thought AICMC TEXAS was full of honorable drivers... Thats what brought ME here and thats why I stayed so long...

[GlennCMC70]

So Matt, I'm confused.....
Do you want NASA to be run like ALMS, F1, NASCAR, or like LeMons?

After all this back and forth, I really think we are not all that far from where we want the other to be.
And I'll give one to Matt for being correct on one thing, the poll seems to show you guys want more tech and rules enforcement than we are currently doing (last I looked). Duely noted. Since I've had no plans to bring my car to the first event of 2010 for a few months now, I had already planned on starting off the year w/ a "bang" w/ regards to tech inspections. I'll take this as a green light to step it up one more knotch.

[Al Fernandez]

I'm confused now. Lemons has shown explosive popularity using a model that is 100% focused on having fun and not being serious, agreed. So that is the reason why we should consider being more serious and less fun?

Matt I honestly do not know where you land on the tech issue because you keep bouncing back and forth with every other comment. At one point you said tech at nationals was the best thing you'd ever experienced. Then you said it was mediocre and left a lot to be desired. Now you're saying that 20-30 minutes should be all that is necessary excluding time to go get tools and actually do the work requested, which is what you're saying happened at nationals....but wasnt that only mediocre?

Which is it young feller, you want us to freeze or git down on the ground?

Oh, and by the way:
AI 8.2: NASA tech inspectors and AI Officials have the right to inspect anything in sight at any time the vehicle is at the track. NASA tech inspectors and AI Officials have the right to request disassembly or any other procedure required to verify vehicle compliance with these rules including a dynamometer re-certification or be required to run monitoring equipment.

Sounds like a disassembly rule to me.

You've already stated you dont trust me to decide what rule to enforce, yet you say the Lemons model is superior because they have no written rules and the drivers have to simply trust the officials to do the right thing with no basis of justification whatsoever. You dont trust me when I have two giant rule books to force my hand and you have a two level appeals process, but you implicitly trust the Lemons guys with no backup whatsoever? So, again, which is it? Feel free to say you'd prefer to have no written rules and anyone other than me making the decisions :lol:

And just so you know, I spend more time than you can possibly imagine talking about things with not just Texas drivers but with drivers from all over the country. My cell phone bill is obscene. My wife complains about it being a second job. The thing is you're confusing "agreeing with" with "listening to". I am ready and happy to listen to everything and anything you have to say. Glenn has tried to call you and you told him you dont want to talk to him. Its not that we're not willing to listen to you, its that you're not happy we arent agreeing with you. Personally I dont know what you want me to agree to because you keep bouncing around! Pick up the phone and call me and I'll listen till your voice is hoarse.

[RichardP]

AND if there is CONTACT or OVERLY AGRESSIVE driving you are pulled off the track and must answer to a judge who will probably ask "WHY ARE YOU DRIVING LIKE AN IDIOT?"
NASATX answer: "If you pull (black flag) someone for contact they will finish last and mess up their points" SO WHAT?


No! This was tried a while back and I was one of the victims. My driver’s suit has not left its equipment bag since that day.

Someone standing on the side of the track acting as judge, jury, and executioner without gathering all the relevant information from the people involved, the corner workers, video evidence, etc. is wrong.

I like Lemons and their model works for them. It only works for them because they are not racing equivalently prepared cars door to door for laps on end. The shenanigans that goes on there is great but does not apply to our racing.

I am 100% for penalizing contact or overly aggressive driving especially for repeat offenders but you have to have all the facts together before decisions are made.

Richard P.

[RichardP]

Here is a GREAT scenario to validate my point. 2006, last event of the year. Marvel and I were fighting for the regional championship down to the last race. during qual, I passed chris under waving yellow in the rain. I admitted it...however, nothing was going to be done about it, my Pole position would have stood, and it would have come down to the results of the last two races to determine the champ. This forced Chris to file a protest, which REALLY pissed me off, but I suppose I would have done the same thing with what was on the line. It created a LOT of animosity toward Chris for a long time but I eventually got over it....but Wow, Regional champ in my rookie year was taken away by a protest that should have been enforced by a director...yes it was Clifton, not Todd but the point was it wasn't strictly enforced.


Your recollection, understanding, or math skills are a bit off. We won that race and finished 20 points ahead of you in the series. If you had not been penalized and had gone on to win that race (which you likely would have – Chris was specifically told not to race you since we didn’t need to finish ahead of you once we won the first race of the weekend) you would have gained 10 points and we would have lost 10 points. That would have tied us for the season and we would have won the championship based on the first tie breaker (cumulative points without drops). There were lots of reasons you lost the championship that year. Us protesting you was not one of them.

Even though your facts are wrong, I get your point and I totally agree with you. The specific reason we filed the protest was because we were passed under a double yellow at an earlier event and nothing was done about it by NASA TX. We did not want to protest our friends at the time and lost out on points because of it.

All of this is on NASA TX and not on the current directors, though. And I believe both have gotten better since then.

Richard P.

[GlennCMC70]

AND if there is CONTACT or OVERLY AGRESSIVE driving you are pulled off the track and must answer to a judge who will probably ask "WHY ARE YOU DRIVING LIKE AN IDIOT?"
NASATX answer: "If you pull (black flag) someone for contact they will finish last and mess up their points" SO WHAT?


No! This was tried a while back and I was one of the victims. My driver’s suit has not left its equipment bag since that day.

Someone standing on the side of the track acting as judge, jury, and executioner without gathering all the relevant information from the people involved, the corner workers, video evidence, etc. is wrong.

I like Lemons and their model works for them. It only works for them because they are not racing equivalently prepared cars door to door for laps on end. The shenanigans that goes on there is great but does not apply to our racing.

I am 100% for penalizing contact or overly aggressive driving especially for repeat offenders but you have to have all the facts together before decisions are made.

Richard P.

As usuall, Richard is 100% correct. Our sprint race format does not allow the time to investigate an issue that most other sactioning bodies have. So, we must almost always conduct the investigation after the fact. there are exceptions to this rule, but my point should be clear.

[David Love AI27]

AND if there is CONTACT or OVERLY AGRESSIVE driving you are pulled off the track and must answer to a judge who will probably ask "WHY ARE YOU DRIVING LIKE AN IDIOT?"
NASATX answer: "If you pull (black flag) someone for contact they will finish last and mess up their points" SO WHAT?


No! This was tried a while back and I was one of the victims. My driver’s suit has not left its equipment bag since that day.

Someone standing on the side of the track acting as judge, jury, and executioner without gathering all the relevant information from the people involved, the corner workers, video evidence, etc. is wrong.

I like Lemons and their model works for them. It only works for them because they are not racing equivalently prepared cars door to door for laps on end. The shenanigans that goes on there is great but does not apply to our racing.

I am 100% for penalizing contact or overly aggressive driving especially for repeat offenders but you have to have all the facts together before decisions are made.

Richard P.

I totally agree Richard, BUT I'm working off of history here... It seems like the the ONLY way NASATX ever gets it right is to swing too far either way... it goes from "if you "rub" someones bumper you are out for the season" then it hits a happy medium because every one is scared and then its like "ok, you guys are doing better so we will loosen the rope around your testicles" and then its like a free for all...

THERE IS NO CONSISTANCY and NO TRANSPARENCY

At some tracks, NASCAR doesn't allow passing under the yellow line cuz it is dangerous. These guys are PROs with millions of dollars at stake. WE seem to think it is "cool " to see a "Cory" type pass in the grass, while the whole time the car in the grass in on the edge of "out-of-control"... it is only a matter of time we someone attempts this and comes across the track in front of 1/2 the pack. I guess we will all ACCEPT "Opps, my bad, I thought it would work"

Jason forced Wirtz off the track at Hallett. It was very close according to the blue scuff on our car. That was a very dangerous situation. Was Jason wrong becaused he got pushed over and Wirtz was 3/4 along side? Was Wirtz wrong because he was being agressive and didn't have a clear opening to make the pass? Jason contacted 3 cars that weekend, was he over his head? If I thought he was, I would not have allowed him to grid mid pack. He had done very well to that point. 3 contacts in one event?? If a director would have come to him and said "your out for one event" or "you will start at the back for one or two events", I believe he would have taken it like a man and took his licks. He is a smart driver and will not run in the rain because he is uncomfortable, I'm proud of that. But if he gets cocky and over his head, he needs a reality check.... and he is not the only one.

It took a long time for me to feel comfortable starting mid pack. I showed respect for all of you and started at the back MANY times. Even today if I don't "feel" right or my head is not in the game, I will grid at the back. Some might call me a pussy, I call it honor and respect for my fellow racers.

We laughed and cheered at Wirtz's pass in the grass and Al running over the cones. And the jokiing when Rob comments about being passed by someone with all 4 wheels locked up. What kind of example is that to the new guys?

This is VERY hard to admit:
I'm stepping back because after Glenn went past me with all 4 locked up at ECR and after watching the video at the banquet, My attitude was "next time someone does that to me I'm gonna turn in and take him out, I don't care what it does to my car". I even picked up paint and had a doner car ready for spare body panels. I've never felt like this before.

Do YOU want to race with someone who has this attitude???? I DON'T

[Adam Ginsberg]

The accuser had no evidence that out plates were not of the legal size, but we got checked anyways.

Hey.....I know that feeling, too. :)

[donovan]

If I were a new racer reading this, I might consider walking and look for something else.

Some good points are being made, but it’s my opinion in many of the exchanges Glenn and Al are only working to try and discredit Matt rather than listen and not trying to grasp what is being stated….
If these two Directors were really wanting to work with Matt or anyone that had issues they would be engaging in constructive exchanges rather than quoting past statement and past experiences that would only work against some type of discussion based logical solutions. (That is my opinion)

With that said, I know the history… and these two Directors had their minds made up well before this thread was started.

Crap like this makes me want to lock my shop and toss the key!

DD

[GlennCMC70]

See Mitch, its really all about Adam here. :wink:

[Fbody383]

Does anyone here have an illegal car?

Yes, I do - maybe. Missing the upper dash trim piece. Why is it part of the "dash"/"dashboard" but the stock instrument cluster/radio/AC control isn't?


I will do my best to publisize all of the decisions we make along the way along with who was involved. Hopefully that transparency will help and if nothing else give you guys more ammo with which to rib the other guys

I asked Al about this in a email, while seeking clarification of the penalty.

I guess we can watch the Rules section for: "Car found to be missing dash per 7.8.7 and is penailzed XXXX"


If I were a new racer reading this, I might consider walking and look for something else. No you wouldn't, not if you wanted to race pony cars. If you just wanted to race anything you'd be in Spec Miata. This beats the pants of American Sedan.

Maybe Mitch is more right than I want to give him credit for. When I started looking at the group I was interested in some of the back stories of what really went on; guess I have enough hutzpah to give it a go or just not enough sense to walk away.

This is still the best sandbox, but the learning curve is pretty steep. I don't necessarily care if Al/Glenn/Todd/Clifton have their minds made up IF I understand what they're going to do and it's consistent.

We may hate the short off season but all this goes better over BBQ, beer, and sippin' to-kill-ya after a day in a hot, smelly, live axle race car.

Anybody with a 4th gen upper interior cowl panel for sale cheap?

[David Love AI27]

Does anyone here have an illegal car?

Yes, I do - maybe. Missing the upper dash trim piece. Why is it part of the "dash"/"dashboard" but the stock instrument cluster/radio/AC control isn't?


I will do my best to publisize all of the decisions we make along the way along with who was involved. Hopefully that transparency will help and if nothing else give you guys more ammo with which to rib the other guys

I asked Al about this in a email, while seeking clarification of the penalty.

I guess we can watch the Rules section for: "Car found to be missing dash per 7.8.7 and is penailzed XXXX"


If I were a new racer reading this, I might consider walking and look for something else. No you wouldn't, not if you wanted to race pony cars. If you just wanted to race anything you'd be in Spec Miata. This beats the pants of American Sedan.

Maybe Mitch is more right than I want to give him credit for. When I started looking at the group I was interested in some of the back stories of what really went on; guess I have enough hutzpah to give it a go or just not enough sense to walk away.

This is still the best sandbox, but the learning curve is pretty steep. I don't necessarily care if Al/Glenn/Todd/Clifton have their minds made up IF I understand what they're going to do and it's consistent.

We may hate the short off season but all this goes better over BBQ, beer, and sippin' to-kill-ya after a day in a hot, smelly, live axle race car.

Anybody with a 4th gen upper interior cowl panel for sale cheap?

Need more guys like you... :D

[AI#97]

Al, again, you are taking shots at me attempting to shoot holes in my theory that the "old NASA formula" is no longer needed, but you are holding onto it too tight. I still can't believe you and Glenn have finally put in print in this thread that which has been an untold MYSTERY for 5 years. I'm shocked, but it's GREAT to know now.

Businesses that achieve success must ALWAYS take a look at themselves from the outside every couple of years and ADJUST to TODAY's market. This is why you see CEO's get shitcanned all the time because they can't operate in the new market. They aren't comfortable and have no way or will to change. yes, there is a hidden message there.

NASA did a great job of getting started. I'm happy for that. Today, NASA is successful and drawing racers from Koni Challenge, World Challenge and elsewhere. It isn't just a small sandbox anymore and whether you like it or not, is a PRO RACING SERIES.....that because of the racers who race here....have a damn good time and is 99% of the time is fun as all hell, but that 1% seems to sour quickly. It's time to change and become what NASA could be. I'm merely suggesting, as a quasi stockholder, change the policies, or change the CEO.

And AL, you are probably confused as hell because you have never taken the time to know ME or what my agenda/game plan is because someone planted some preconceived notion about me into you head long ago who also doesn't know me. Those that have taken the time to actually LISTEN to my reasoning, usually say "hell yeah!". Quit reading every 5th word and quit assuming I'm here to tear things down. I'm looking for improvement over the past...even suggested a few things to do so. They happen to contradict YOUR plan. Either you are taking it personally (I see that, i've been a little harsh on a few things) or you are unable to adjust your brain. It happens.

I do have some VERY angry answers to your questions, but I ain't going to stoop back down to that level again. It's pointless at this juncture and I do realize it's been misinterpreted as hate or very childish in the past. I'm beyond that, I think I now fully understand Al...

As for tech being a pain in the ass and taking up a lot of time...well, any serious AI racer who knows the rules could 80% tech an AI car from 10 feet away in less than 3 minutes. The other 15% requires a tape measure and toe plates and some sealing leads/tapes with a follow up a few days after the event at the dyno of the competitor's choice. 4% is knowing your racers and their ability to build a car or perpensity to stretch the rules and 1% is sleeping with ECU's and knowing how people cheat. It's not rocket science, it just requires some committed effort and a plan.

So instead of trying to figure ME out and make me look like a lunatic, look to the future. those guys dropping 80-150k on AI cars and showing up at your events with semi's are gonna keep coming... The old way is going to get ugly brother..... just my $0.02.

Thanks Donovan.

[GlennCMC70]

If I were a new racer reading this, I might consider walking and look for something else.

Some good points are being made, but it’s my opinion in many of the exchanges Glenn and Al are only working to try and discredit Matt rather than listen and not trying to grasp what is being stated….
If these two Directors were really wanting to work with Matt or anyone that had issues they would be engaging in constructive exchanges rather than quoting past statement and past experiences that would only work against some type of discussion based logical solutions. (That is my opinion)

With that said, I know the history… and these two Directors had their minds made up well before this thread was started.

Crap like this makes me want to lock my shop and toss the key!

DD
I am trying to discredit Matt, but only where he is not telling the trueth or the whole trueth. I want to work w/ Matt, but all the mud slinging isnt helping. Matt has constantly attacked me where not once have i attacked him. And we cant follow Matt's wants and desires and follow David's wants and desires, and follow ....... keep going till all names have been added. Get my point. We could have every person here named as a Director and we would still be here doing this. At some point we have to draw a line in the sand and say, "This is the way to Paradise, follow me if you want to live forever!".
Also, so far it really seems like Matt is speaking for everyone here, but that's a big assumption on my part when none of you speak up and say so. If so many folks agree w/ him, why are we only hearing from him? A simple, "I agree w/ Matt XX%." would go a long ways to making the change he wants."

As i said before, we all are so very close in what we want. The middle is some place beween The Directors and Matt. How far each of us is from that is not that far apart when you look at it from a POV NASA vs. SCCA or other sanctioning bodies. It really is a matter of "splitting hairs" at this point. But when you zoom in and only look at it from a POV of just AI/CMC Texas, you start to see things in more detail. We are now focusing on those details. We have moved from the 2003 AI/CMC season of 1 event weeeknd w/ like 3 cars (none of which were legal AI/CMC cars) to fields of possibly 57 cars w/ closer to 99% rules compliance.

And David D., constructive exchanges take place via phone or face to face. Niether of which Matt is willing have w/ me.

[GlennCMC70]

Does anyone here have an illegal car?

Yes, I do - maybe. Missing the upper dash trim piece. Why is it part of the "dash"/"dashboard" but the stock instrument cluster/radio/AC control isn't?


I will do my best to publisize all of the decisions we make along the way along with who was involved. Hopefully that transparency will help and if nothing else give you guys more ammo with which to rib the other guys

I asked Al about this in a email, while seeking clarification of the penalty.

I guess we can watch the Rules section for: "Car found to be missing dash per 7.8.7 and is penailzed XXXX"


If I were a new racer reading this, I might consider walking and look for something else. No you wouldn't, not if you wanted to race pony cars. If you just wanted to race anything you'd be in Spec Miata. This beats the pants of American Sedan.

Maybe Mitch is more right than I want to give him credit for. When I started looking at the group I was interested in some of the back stories of what really went on; guess I have enough hutzpah to give it a go or just not enough sense to walk away.

This is still the best sandbox, but the learning curve is pretty steep. I don't necessarily care if Al/Glenn/Todd/Clifton have their minds made up IF I understand what they're going to do and it's consistent.

We may hate the short off season but all this goes better over BBQ, beer, and sippin' to-kill-ya after a day in a hot, smelly, live axle race car.

Anybody with a 4th gen upper interior cowl panel for sale cheap?

I know you have that part missing. And if it was Matt's way, you would have "fun run" all of 2009. Your not the only one who has this type of issue. There are several. But we know of those (for the most part) are are trying to work w/ them on correcting those issues.
You have had way more than enough time to resolve your issue.

[GlennCMC70]

NASA did a great job of getting started. I'm happy for that. Today, NASA is successful and drawing racers from Koni Challenge, World Challenge and elsewhere. It isn't just a small sandbox anymore and whether you like it or not, is a PRO RACING SERIES.....that because of the racers who race here....have a damn good time and is 99% of the time is fun as all hell, but that 1% seems to sour quickly. It's time to change and become what NASA could be. I'm merely suggesting, as a quasi stockholder, change the policies, or change the CEO.

You have no idea how much you sound like me back in 2005 while talking to Adam and Todd about the way the series was being run back then. But I learned that there is a method to the madness.
If we compair tech/rules compliance to a switch. For you, you want a "on/off" switch. Its pretty clear you want us to move from whatever worked to get us started, to what you want today. For me, i see it (now) as a 20 position rotary switch. Slowly working my way from zero tech/rule compliance (2003-2004) to 50-60% rules compliance (2005-2006 - just an example, not a fact) to 80-90% rules compliance in 2007-2008, to where we are now.
I realize we are not moving in time w/ your expected timeline. Todd and Adam wasn't either back in 2005 w/ my expected timeline. The announcement of the 2006 Nationals caught those two off guard (w/ regards to rules compliance) and they had to do the two step shuffle to get our group not only up to speed, but on the same page w/ the rest of the country. Its a work in progress. We have only had 4 National events. The 1st one was a cluster w/ regards to rules compliance and interpretation. The 2nd, was much better. The 3rd and 4th we pretty much 100% compliant.
The point is, we are working towards a common goal, all be it at a different pace than what a few want.

The pole tells me, we need to hit that next "click" on the rotary switch.

We are boiling a frog here guys. I can see the frog jumping out due to turning up the heat too quick, but not from turing it up too slowly. According to the pole, its time to boil the frog.

[Al Fernandez]

Well David, like Glenn said, you cant have it both ways. You cannot correct something that has been posted that is not correct without also discrediting the original poster. I've not attacked Matt personally, just tried to correct where he was wrong and asked for clarification when he's contradicted himself.

Similarly, you cannot have more tech inspections without also dedicating more of the racer's weekend to vehicle disassembly and to inspections. You cannot use racers for tech inspection resources without encroaching on their time and potentially antagonizing others under the whole issue of "my competition is being allowed to disect my car". You also cannot ensure adherence to the rules without tech inspections. Balance is key.

No Matt, I do not agree that AI or CMC are professional level racing series. They are ammateur level racing series. The target audience is not Dean Martin, the one guy I know of that has come down from a true pro league to race with us, though it is cool to see that happen. The target audience are the guys we have! Regular guys with regular jobs with a love for cars that want to go out on weekends and race, and drive their hearts out, and hang out with other lunatics like themselves. The fact that some of them can afford to show up with a spare car and a full 18wheeler is not, IMHO, relevant. I understand you want NASA and AI to "step up" to being SCCA's and A-sedan's little brother. I dont, and I have not been informed by NASA that they do either. As for your call for me to be replaced...you're entitled to your opinion. Get the support of our fellow racers and contact Lindsey or Kunzman at HQ. I'm sure they'll tell you car count is king and will happily give me the boot once you prove to them what a miserable job I do.

As for tech...I do agree sometimes we're a little more lax than we should be, though certainly we've done more in 2009 than in previous years. We scale cars just about every race, and inspect one maybe two items half of the races. Some weekends Glenn and I walk around and inspect one thing on every car in the paddock.

What I would like to do in 2010 is as follows:
1) We create a list of several tech items including how to perform the inspection.
2) We hand that to NASA TX tech and tell them to pick at random which of those items to look for. This eliminates "us" as racers from knowing ahead of time which specific item is going to be checked.
3) NASA TX tech performs the inspection and calls us over if something looks suspect to them, and we make a decision accordingly.
4) We log what has been done and to whom and alter the list for the following weekend so that over time everything we want to have looked at is looked at and things that we want repeated are repeated.

This requires more from NASA TX than we've had in the past. Recently it was just Jonathan, and a lot of times he doesnt have the hardware we need. To put it into perspective, at nationals we'd check three or four items and we had something like four tech inspectors. Shannon has told me of her intent to staff up tech to help enable exactly what I've stated. If that happens it means not having to ask our racers to perform tech. We'll see, it'll be a work in progress.

[BlueFirePony]

...speak up and say so.
Please do not assume I have the time or inclination to read 7 pages of ramblings and try to make sense of it. When you all figure out where you want to be make a decision...If I like it I will stay. If I don't I will leave (and not post and post and post and post). 'nuff said.

[GlennCMC70]

Your free to email me what you expect of the series.
But Matt has, in many posts, commented that ALL of the racers agree w/ him. If you havent been contact by Matt to see if you agree w/ him, I'll assume he does not speak for you.

This is the point we keep missing here. Us Direcotrs NEED your feedback. Without it, we have to assume we are doing what you want. Matt has informed us what he wants. We can't run it his way if he is the only one we believe wants it that way.

[BlueFirePony]

...But Matt has, in many posts, commented that ALL of the racers agree w/ him. If you havent been contact by Matt to see if you agree w/ him, I'll assume he does not speak for you.
.
Point taken and I can see you all need some input from me on how to moderate a social forum as well...I'll be happy to lend that along with working on the charity and outreach ;)

I just scanned back three of 4 pages to see if I could sum up the points people might be trying to make and that I think I might need to chime in on - too much BS mixed in to be sure. One thing I will post is
NO ONE SPEAKS FOR ME.

So, I'll be continuing to check back here every couple of days, read the last page and see if things are still running in circles or not. Rest assured, rambling itself will not drive me away from this series...but thoughtless changes will.

[GlennCMC70]

I'll admit, i'm not the most PC person around. And that is putting it mildly.

[David Love AI27]

Well David, like Glenn said, you cant have it both ways. You cannot correct something that has been posted that is not correct without also discrediting the original poster. I've not attacked Matt personally, just tried to correct where he was wrong and asked for clarification when he's contradicted himself.

Similarly, you cannot have more tech inspections without also dedicating more of the racer's weekend to vehicle disassembly and to inspections. You cannot use racers for tech inspection resources without encroaching on their time and potentially antagonizing others under the whole issue of "my competition is being allowed to disect my car". You also cannot ensure adherence to the rules without tech inspections. Balance is key.

No Matt, I do not agree that AI or CMC are professional level racing series. They are ammateur level racing series. The target audience is not Dean Martin, the one guy I know of that has come down from a true pro league to race with us, though it is cool to see that happen. The target audience are the guys we have! Regular guys with regular jobs with a love for cars that want to go out on weekends and race, and drive their hearts out, and hang out with other lunatics like themselves. The fact that some of them can afford to show up with a spare car and a full 18wheeler is not, IMHO, relevant. I understand you want NASA and AI to "step up" to being SCCA's and A-sedan's little brother. I dont, and I have not been informed by NASA that they do either. As for your call for me to be replaced...you're entitled to your opinion. Get the support of our fellow racers and contact Lindsey or Kunzman at HQ. I'm sure they'll tell you car count is king and will happily give me the boot once you prove to them what a miserable job I do.

As for tech...I do agree sometimes we're a little more lax than we should be, though certainly we've done more in 2009 than in previous years. We scale cars just about every race, and inspect one maybe two items half of the races. Some weekends Glenn and I walk around and inspect one thing on every car in the paddock.

What I would like to do in 2010 is as follows:
1) We create a list of several tech items including how to perform the inspection.
2) We hand that to NASA TX tech and tell them to pick at random which of those items to look for. This eliminates "us" as racers from knowing ahead of time which specific item is going to be checked.
3) NASA TX tech performs the inspection and calls us over if something looks suspect to them, and we make a decision accordingly.
4) We log what has been done and to whom and alter the list for the following weekend so that over time everything we want to have looked at is looked at and things that we want repeated are repeated.

This requires more from NASA TX than we've had in the past. Recently it was just Jonathan, and a lot of times he doesnt have the hardware we need. To put it into perspective, at nationals we'd check three or four items and we had something like four tech inspectors. Shannon has told me of her intent to staff up tech to help enable exactly what I've stated. If that happens it means not having to ask our racers to perform tech. We'll see, it'll be a work in progress.

This is really starting to make sense... Al, you are in Texas now... we left Nationals months ago


1) We create a list of several tech items including how to perform the inspection.
2) We hand that to NASA TX tech and tell them to pick at random which of those items to look for. This eliminates "us" as racers from knowing ahead of time which specific item is going to be checked.

Excuse me for being stupid:
YOU are going to make a list
They are going to pick from YOUR list
So that YOU won't know what items they picked from YOUR list

Crystal clear to me..


NASA TX tech performs the inspection and calls us over if something looks suspect to them, and we make a decision accordingly.

So you are going to have the top 3 cars?? 9 cars being inspected by 1 or maybe 2 NASATX officials and every time there is an issue or question they have to find you or Todd or Glenn to get a ruling... lets say we are at ECR.. and Glenn has cleared tech and is at the bottom of the hill and Todd didn't come and there is an issue with your car??? so they have to send a runner to find Glenn, unless you are going to make a ruling on your own car about an issue you know nothing about since the tech randomly picked an item from your list... meanwhile you have 4 or 5 other guys waiting to have their cars teched... I bet they will all be standing around patting you on the back for your new and improved tech proceedures


This requires more from NASA TX than we've had in the past. Recently it was just Jonathan, and a lot of times he doesnt have the hardware we need.

ROFLMFAO... He didn't even know what a carburator was the first time he looked at my car... YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME!!!!!!


Shannon has told me of her intent to staff up tech to help enable exactly what I've stated.

Why don't I believe this!!... Two reasons

1.) It started with "Shannon has told me..."
2.) It would cost her money


we had something like four tech inspectors.

The day Shannon Matus hires four (4?) KNOWLEDGABLE tech inspectors you better head for start/finish cuz I will kiss your ass in front of the whole damn crowd...



You cannot use racers for tech inspection resources without encroaching on their time and potentially antagonizing others under the whole issue of "my competition is being allowed to disect my car".


So what if Daron checks Glenns car, Glenn checks Jeremys car and Jeremy checks Darons car... All three are in tech all three are close by to answers questions and ALL THREE KNOW SOMETHING ABOUT AI/CMC... How hard is that??? Have you asked ANYONE if they would be willing to do it?? Instead of going UP the ladder where nobody know anything about our cars and an owner who would rather just tell you what you want to hear just to get you off the phone.


they'll tell you car count is king and will happily give me the boot once you prove to them what a miserable job I do.

If you take the two new cars coming into AI, cars that were heading this way already, and claim you added 50% to the car count... you need to run for president... AI didn't have enough cars to earn Toyo contingencies in 2009, I'm willing to bet they don't make it in 2010 either...

PLEASE PROVE ME WRONG!!! I truely want to come back in 2011 and race with 9 or 10 national contending AI cars...

Al... I appreciate what you did for me, getting me to Nationals and all that, but you really need to grasp some reality here. For one, don't reinvent the wheel and two 95% of this group can and will work together and can police each other very well. There are people available to help two Down Under guys, two Jordans, two Kellams, Pedderson/Marvel and two LiiR guys there are enough extras to go around.. Stop defending grandios ideas and look within the group...

[donovan]

Matt does not speak for me...
I do agree with many of his points.

DD

[GlennCMC70]

Matt does not speak for me...
I do agree with many of his points.

DD

Progress. But it would help to clarify which of those you agree w/ and which you do not. Otherwise, i'll assume....

[donovan]

Well David, like Glenn said, you cant have it both ways. You cannot correct something that has been posted that is not correct without also discrediting the original poster. I've not attacked Matt personally, just tried to correct where he was wrong and asked for clarification when he's contradicted himself.

It's not nessasary to dumb down anything by explaining basic debate methods. That responce is the exact reason why some people say you are not right for the job!! Its uncanny how you and Glenn both respond in the same way... and the wrong way!

My post simply stated your conversation is single sided. It was more or less as someone from the outside looking in... I then stated how I know the history so it all makes sense!

It was my nice way of saying you guys "stop making yourself and the rest of us look like a bunch of idiots"


Similarly, you cannot have more tech inspections without also dedicating more of the racer's weekend to vehicle disassembly and to inspections. You cannot use racers for tech inspection resources without encroaching on their time and potentially antagonizing others under the whole issue of "my competition is being allowed to disect my car". You also cannot ensure adherence to the rules without tech inspections. Balance is key.

Disassembly... when has anything ever been torn down at one of our events?

[donovan]

Matt does not speak for me...
I do agree with many of his points.

DD

Progress. But it would help to clarify which of those you agree w/ and which you do not. Otherwise, i'll assume....

Kind of like how you guys assumed I did not want to be a Director... :wink: <--- see the winking smiley!!! :lol:

If I find some time I will break it down, kind of busy... need to wash my dog and go wax my Miata.

DD

[GlennCMC70]

It was accually assumed you wanted to be one, thus the reason you were asked.

[Jrod]

If I were a new racer reading this, I might consider walking and look for something else.

Some good points are being made, but

DD

As a wannabe racer, I get the feeling there is a fair amount of animosity and discontent among several of the guys here. This doesn't paint a real pretty picture, but I'm not ready to build up an A-Sedan car instead of CMC because of it. Anyone can make himself look like an asshat on a message board and anyone reading such a thing should consider that. Obviously I don't know anyone here, but I've met and chauffeured a couple around TWS and Matt didn't seem like a raging lunatic at the time. :wink:
I've not been part of the AICMC inspection or rules enforcement so that's about all the opinion I'm qualified to offer. I noticed some general event things that could be better, but that's not relevant here.

JJ (another one!)

[Boudy]

And just about the time I was recovering from reading the $400 thread... Quite frankly, that thread is filled with pretty much the same BS and rhetoric as this one.

I will comment here to keep it from being assumed that others are speaking for me. I joined NASA and this series because SCCA takes themselves WAAAAYY too seriously for my taste. With that said, there are some here who are probably better suited to compete someplace else.

Here are a few points from my perspective:

I support the manner is which the CMC rules set has been enforced in the Texas region regarding allowing non-compliant cars to race under special circumstances. Fix-It Tickets serve one purpose and one purpose only, every single one of them adds to car count. Also, I believe the position points argument to be irrelevant in an 18 car field.

I support stepped up Tech inspections. Tech is welcome to inspect anything on my car they may so chose to. However, if I have to remove a single bolt then I'll probably take a DQ. Personal choice as I hate working on my car at the track, period.

I support the points made by Mosty and Richard in regards to NASA being compared to LeMons. 2 different business models for 2 different markets.

I support the idea that some minor changes could improve our events.

I thank past and present management along with fellow competitors who worked to build our car count to what is today. Amazing!!!



Boudy

[Todd Covini]

I've been out of pocket all week....what did I miss?

-=- Todd

[David Love AI27]

I've been out of pocket all week....what did I miss?

-=- Todd

I already put away my stick :twisted: ... don't make me get it back out :evil:

[rleng1]

I've been out of pocket all week....what did I miss?

-=- Todd

Just wait for the movie. it will be out in a theater near you.

[Rob Liebbe]

Wow - I just sat down and read this entire thread and now my head hurts. Nobody take this the wrong way, but it makes me wonder if Glenn is off his meds, Matt is off his rocker, and Al is bored from being on vacation for too long. Please take this offline, get on a conference call, figure a few things out then get back to us with some constructive dialogue.

Thanks

edited to remove the word "both" by Rob 1/2/2010 10:52 am

[Boudy]

Yeah, Classic tale of a barrel of apples!!!

There always seems to be a minority contingency that swears the whole system is fucked up and doomed to fail while the rest of us are content.

Boudy

[David Love AI27]

Wow - I just sat down and read this entire thread and now my head hurts. Nobody take this the wrong way, but it makes me wonder if both Glenn is off his meds, Matt is off his rocker, and Al is bored from being on vacation for too long. Please take this offline, get on a conference call, figure a few things out then get back to us with some constructive dialogue.

Thanks

Glenn: off meds
Matt: off rocker
Al: off work
Todd: way off
Me: off base
DD: pissed off
Burch: off-line
Jason: off chasin' girls
Mitch: off in left field
Rob: right ON

DD.. I'm not really saying your pissed, just wanted to include you

[mitchntx]

Mitch: off in left field


Hey ... how'd I get drug into this ...

[David Love AI27]

Yeah, Classic tale of a barrel of apples!!!

I'm a "Granny Smith", leaves a sour taste in your mouth!!

[AllZWay]

.......... I joined NASA and this series because SCCA takes themselves WAAAAYY too seriously for my taste. With that said, there are some here who are probably better suited to compete someplace else.

Here are a few points from my perspective:

I support the manner is which the CMC rules set has been enforced in the Texas region regarding allowing non-compliant cars to race under special circumstances. Fix-It Tickets serve one purpose and one purpose only, every single one of them adds to car count. Also, I believe the position points argument to be irrelevant in an 18 car field.

I support stepped up Tech inspections. Tech is welcome to inspect anything on my car they may so chose to. However, if I have to remove a single bolt then I'll probably take a DQ. Personal choice as I hate working on my car at the track, period.

I support the points made by Mosty and Richard in regards to NASA being compared to LeMons. 2 different business models for 2 different markets.

I support the idea that some minor changes could improve our events.

I thank past and present management along with fellow competitors who worked to build our car count to what is today. Amazing!!!



Boudy

Boudy pretty much has covered my thoughts exactly and I'll add a little more of my thoughts to it.

I have no problem with more tech... but I don't want it while I am hot still in my driver suit. Do it before the race or after I get to the pits and my suit is off. I also have no desire to turn wrenches on race weekend.

This is supposed to be for FUN racing... NONE of us are on a fast track to bigger and better racing. Jack Roush, Gannsi...etc... are not scouting our events for their next great talent. I often tell people I am off on a fantasy weekend and enjoy the escape from the real world, but I have NO visions of gandeur...this is just for personal fun.

And folks....since this is just for fun.... I would suggest that when the fun ends....it is time to find a new avenue for fun. JMHO

[Hood]

Boudy pretty much has covered my thoughts exactly and I'll add a little more of my thoughts to it.

I have no problem with more tech... but I don't want it while I am hot still in my driver suit. Do it before the race or after I get to the pits and my suit is off. I also have no desire to turn wrenches on race weekend.

This is supposed to be for FUN racing... NONE of us are on a fast track to bigger and better racing. Jack Roush, Gannsi...etc... are not scouting our events for their next great talent. I often tell people I am off on a fantasy weekend and enjoy the escape from the real world, but I have NO visions of gandeur...this is just for personal fun.

And folks....since this is just for fun.... I would suggest that when the fun ends....it is time to find a new avenue for fun. JMHO

Thanks to my fellow Renoite for that summation. I just finished reading this entire thread and like Rob, my head hurts. James sums it up beautifully! Most of the guys (and girls) that we race with understand the concept of competition on an amateur level. The camaraderie of the group and the fun of the sport in general is what draws me into this series. I've said before that I considered many venues before I landed in this sandbox... SCCA: way too full of itself in W2W events (you never see the friendships in the pits at an SCCA event). This is my Walter Mitty weekend escape from the grind that I use to pay for it. I think about the amount of money that I spend on this HOBBY and never once have I regretted the cash outlay (a lot of you know that I have WAY too many expensive hobbies). I derive too much enjoyment from this to let the ones that are too serious drag me into a debate that goes nowhere. I'll just comment on one item... the guys that are stepping up to the plate and devoting a LOT of their time (even if they are comp'd a paltry amount) are doing a sometimes thankless job. I would challenge those that are unhappy with things the way they are to start devoting more time to constructive assistance (not just the writtten word but action behind the words). I can see how James feels about it not being worth instructing if some compensation wasn't involved. I instruct with TWS and just dividing my time between two students and running my street car during the instructor sessions is hard work. I can't imagine doing that on a race weekend.

[cobra132]

While some of you pound away mindlessly on your keyboards exposing your weaknesses, I am in my garage, getting stronger.

[GlennCMC70]

And just about the time I was recovering from reading the $400 thread... Quite frankly, that thread is filled with pretty much the same BS and rhetoric as this one.

I will comment here to keep it from being assumed that others are speaking for me. I joined NASA and this series because SCCA takes themselves WAAAAYY too seriously for my taste. With that said, there are some here who are probably better suited to compete someplace else.

Here are a few points from my perspective:

I support the manner is which the CMC rules set has been enforced in the Texas region regarding allowing non-compliant cars to race under special circumstances. Fix-It Tickets serve one purpose and one purpose only, every single one of them adds to car count. Also, I believe the position points argument to be irrelevant in an 18 car field.

I support stepped up Tech inspections. Tech is welcome to inspect anything on my car they may so chose to. However, if I have to remove a single bolt then I'll probably take a DQ. Personal choice as I hate working on my car at the track, period.

I support the points made by Mosty and Richard in regards to NASA being compared to LeMons. 2 different business models for 2 different markets.

I support the idea that some minor changes could improve our events.

I thank past and present management along with fellow competitors who worked to build our car count to what is today. Amazing!!!



Boudy

I'm glad you took the time to comment Robert.
Thanks.

[ShadowBolt]

.......... I joined NASA and this series because SCCA takes themselves WAAAAYY too seriously for my taste. With that said, there are some here who are probably better suited to compete someplace else.

Here are a few points from my perspective:

I support the manner is which the CMC rules set has been enforced in the Texas region regarding allowing non-compliant cars to race under special circumstances. Fix-It Tickets serve one purpose and one purpose only, every single one of them adds to car count. Also, I believe the position points argument to be irrelevant in an 18 car field.

I support stepped up Tech inspections. Tech is welcome to inspect anything on my car they may so chose to. However, if I have to remove a single bolt then I'll probably take a DQ. Personal choice as I hate working on my car at the track, period.

I support the points made by Mosty and Richard in regards to NASA being compared to LeMons. 2 different business models for 2 different markets.

I support the idea that some minor changes could improve our events.

I thank past and present management along with fellow competitors who worked to build our car count to what is today. Amazing!!!



Boudy

Boudy pretty much has covered my thoughts exactly and I'll add a little more of my thoughts to it.

I have no problem with more tech... but I don't want it while I am hot still in my driver suit. Do it before the race or after I get to the pits and my suit is off. I also have no desire to turn wrenches on race weekend.

This is supposed to be for FUN racing... NONE of us are on a fast track to bigger and better racing. Jack Roush, Gannsi...etc... are not scouting our events for their next great talent. I often tell people I am off on a fantasy weekend and enjoy the escape from the real world, but I have NO visions of gandeur...this is just for personal fun.

And folks....since this is just for fun.... I would suggest that when the fun ends....it is time to find a new avenue for fun. JMHO

I'm with James and Boudy on all this. While I hope you all stay and race with us maybe a few of you should hit the fucking road! Why would you stay and race in such a screwed up series? By the way I'm sure Team Jordan got third place in CMC-2 points because of my home made wiper cowl. It was wrong and I should have changed it but a new one from Ford was $89.00 or some shit like that and I thought the idea of CMC racing was NOT to spend money for no reason. I also had no problem with the wiper cowl on the 22. I can't see anyone else in CMC2 having an issue with it. The 22 will outrun me most of the time (except in the rain) and I don't want him throwing away $100.00 for a stock cowl. It will not matter!
No series will ever be perfect. I am sick as hell about the price going up but I'm not quitting. We have lost racers and will continue to do so in the future no matter who is in charge. Wayne is gone because he says he told NASA to reign in Corey (and nothing was done) then when he got hit he went ballistic. Skip is still so mad he told me last week that he would KILL Marshall if he ever sees him again. Richard has quit racing. I still do not understand but I'm sure he has valid (to him) reasons. As much as I wish all of these people (and Matt) were still going to race with us we can't please everyone! All we can do is try to make things as good as possible for WEEKEND RACERS. Some will take their ball and go home no matter what the rules are.

JJ


JJ, the new one. Don't mind all this crap. Come race with us and have the most fun you can have with your clothes on. These are good guys at the track and off the web.

Jerry
CMC2 #55

[David Love AI27]

I'm sure Team Jordan got third place in CMC-2 points because of my home made wiper cowl. It was wrong and I should have changed it but a new one from Ford was $89.00.

I don't want him throwing away $100.00 for a stock cowl. It will not matter!

As much as I wish all of these people (and Matt) were still going to race with us we can't please everyone! All we can do is try to make things as good as possible for WEEKEND RACERS. Some will take their ball and go home no matter what the rules are.


Jerry
CMC2 #55

Jerry... One of my issues relates to running at Nationals. You would have been DQed and lost every penny you spent to get there, way more than $100. And if you would have argued that it wasn't performance related, you would have lost the arguement.

I was caught up on the "Nationals" wave and I know VERY few Texas racers plan to attend the championships , but if they go with an illegal car there is going to be a problem... ask Kellam about getting caught with something that would have been allowed within the region...

How many of you have had your ride height checked over the last 2 years?

[ShadowBolt]

I'm sure Team Jordan got third place in CMC-2 points because of my home made wiper cowl. It was wrong and I should have changed it but a new one from Ford was $89.00.

I don't want him throwing away $100.00 for a stock cowl. It will not matter!

As much as I wish all of these people (and Matt) were still going to race with us we can't please everyone! All we can do is try to make things as good as possible for WEEKEND RACERS. Some will take their ball and go home no matter what the rules are.


Jerry
CMC2 #55

Jerry... One of my issues relates to running at Nationals. You would have been DQed and lost every penny you spent to get there, way more than $100. And if you would have argued that it wasn't performance related, you would have lost the arguement.

I was caught up on the "Nationals" wave and I know VERY few Texas racers plan to attend the championships , but if they go with an illegal car there is going to be a problem... ask Kellam about getting caught with something that would have been allowed within the region...

How many of you have had your ride height checked over the last 2 years?

Point taken.


JJ

[Fbody383]

If I were a new racer reading this, I might consider walking and look for something else.

As a wannabe racer, I get the feeling there is a fair amount of animosity and discontent among several of the guys here. This doesn't paint a real pretty picture, but I'm not ready to build up an A-Sedan car instead of CMC because of it.

There you go, proving Mitch right about the inter-web arguing and having enough chutzpah to get involved anyway.

JJ, you're right that we don't always appear to be in sync. But speaking as a second year guy, this is a GREAT group of guys and a FANTASTIC group of racers.

What you don't see and/or hear are the other 10-15 guys (and a couple hot shoe chicks) that are reserved just enough to not have to express themselves here.

[Boudy]

Jerry: You should have gotten a Fix-It Ticket and allowed to run that event only. Besides that cowl cover was so gay I felt all warm when I saw it. :oops:

This is the type of things that lack the consistancy that Matt is talking about. Fix-It Tickets are fine with most of us but they do need to be enforced consistantly. Also, if this is enforced consistantly then every racer knows where he stands and will be well aware when he travels to Nats or another region.

Boudy

[rleng1]

.......... I joined NASA and this series because SCCA takes themselves WAAAAYY too seriously for my taste. With that said, there are some here who are probably better suited to compete someplace else.

Here are a few points from my perspective:

I support the manner is which the CMC rules set has been enforced in the Texas region regarding allowing non-compliant cars to race under special circumstances. Fix-It Tickets serve one purpose and one purpose only, every single one of them adds to car count. Also, I believe the position points argument to be irrelevant in an 18 car field.

I support stepped up Tech inspections. Tech is welcome to inspect anything on my car they may so chose to. However, if I have to remove a single bolt then I'll probably take a DQ. Personal choice as I hate working on my car at the track, period.

I support the points made by Mosty and Richard in regards to NASA being compared to LeMons. 2 different business models for 2 different markets.

I support the idea that some minor changes could improve our events.

I thank past and present management along with fellow competitors who worked to build our car count to what is today. Amazing!!!



Boudy

Boudy pretty much has covered my thoughts exactly and I'll add a little more of my thoughts to it.

I have no problem with more tech... but I don't want it while I am hot still in my driver suit. Do it before the race or after I get to the pits and my suit is off. I also have no desire to turn wrenches on race weekend.

This is supposed to be for FUN racing... NONE of us are on a fast track to bigger and better racing. Jack Roush, Gannsi...etc... are not scouting our events for their next great talent. I often tell people I am off on a fantasy weekend and enjoy the escape from the real world, but I have NO visions of gandeur...this is just for personal fun.

And folks....since this is just for fun.... I would suggest that when the fun ends....it is time to find a new avenue for fun. JMHO

I'm with James and Boudy on all this. While I hope you all stay and race with us maybe a few of you should hit the fucking road! Why would you stay and race in such a screwed up series? By the way I'm sure Team Jordan got third place in CMC-2 points because of my home made wiper cowl. It was wrong and I should have changed it but a new one from Ford was $89.00 or some shit like that and I thought the idea of CMC racing was NOT to spend money for no reason. I also had no problem with the wiper cowl on the 22. I can't see anyone else in CMC2 having an issue with it. The 22 will outrun me most of the time (except in the rain) and I don't want him throwing away $100.00 for a stock cowl. It will not matter!
No series will ever be perfect. I am sick as hell about the price going up but I'm not quitting. We have lost racers and will continue to do so in the future no matter who is in charge. Wayne is gone because he says he told NASA to reign in Corey (and nothing was done) then when he got hit he went ballistic. Skip is still so mad he told me last week that he would KILL Marshall if he ever sees him again. Richard has quit racing. I still do not understand but I'm sure he has valid (to him) reasons. As much as I wish all of these people (and Matt) were still going to race with us we can't please everyone! All we can do is try to make things as good as possible for WEEKEND RACERS. Some will take their ball and go home no matter what the rules are.

JJ


JJ, the new one. Don't mind all this crap. Come race with us and have the most fun you can have with your clothes on. These are good guys at the track and off the web.

Jerry
CMC2 #55

JJ,
for the over 50 crowd, it may be the most fun with or wothout clothes. 8)

[ShadowBolt]

.......... I joined NASA and this series because SCCA takes themselves WAAAAYY too seriously for my taste. With that said, there are some here who are probably better suited to compete someplace else.

Here are a few points from my perspective:

I support the manner is which the CMC rules set has been enforced in the Texas region regarding allowing non-compliant cars to race under special circumstances. Fix-It Tickets serve one purpose and one purpose only, every single one of them adds to car count. Also, I believe the position points argument to be irrelevant in an 18 car field.

I support stepped up Tech inspections. Tech is welcome to inspect anything on my car they may so chose to. However, if I have to remove a single bolt then I'll probably take a DQ. Personal choice as I hate working on my car at the track, period.

I support the points made by Mosty and Richard in regards to NASA being compared to LeMons. 2 different business models for 2 different markets.

I support the idea that some minor changes could improve our events.

I thank past and present management along with fellow competitors who worked to build our car count to what is today. Amazing!!!



Boudy

Boudy pretty much has covered my thoughts exactly and I'll add a little more of my thoughts to it.

I have no problem with more tech... but I don't want it while I am hot still in my driver suit. Do it before the race or after I get to the pits and my suit is off. I also have no desire to turn wrenches on race weekend.

This is supposed to be for FUN racing... NONE of us are on a fast track to bigger and better racing. Jack Roush, Gannsi...etc... are not scouting our events for their next great talent. I often tell people I am off on a fantasy weekend and enjoy the escape from the real world, but I have NO visions of gandeur...this is just for personal fun.

And folks....since this is just for fun.... I would suggest that when the fun ends....it is time to find a new avenue for fun. JMHO

I'm with James and Boudy on all this. While I hope you all stay and race with us maybe a few of you should hit the fucking road! Why would you stay and race in such a screwed up series? By the way I'm sure Team Jordan got third place in CMC-2 points because of my home made wiper cowl. It was wrong and I should have changed it but a new one from Ford was $89.00 or some shit like that and I thought the idea of CMC racing was NOT to spend money for no reason. I also had no problem with the wiper cowl on the 22. I can't see anyone else in CMC2 having an issue with it. The 22 will outrun me most of the time (except in the rain) and I don't want him throwing away $100.00 for a stock cowl. It will not matter!
No series will ever be perfect. I am sick as hell about the price going up but I'm not quitting. We have lost racers and will continue to do so in the future no matter who is in charge. Wayne is gone because he says he told NASA to reign in Corey (and nothing was done) then when he got hit he went ballistic. Skip is still so mad he told me last week that he would KILL Marshall if he ever sees him again. Richard has quit racing. I still do not understand but I'm sure he has valid (to him) reasons. As much as I wish all of these people (and Matt) were still going to race with us we can't please everyone! All we can do is try to make things as good as possible for WEEKEND RACERS. Some will take their ball and go home no matter what the rules are.

JJ


JJ, the new one. Don't mind all this crap. Come race with us and have the most fun you can have with your clothes on. These are good guys at the track and off the web.

Jerry
CMC2 #55

JJ,
for the over 50 crowd, it may be the most fun with or wothout clothes. 8)

You may be that old but I'm not.

JJ

[ShadowBolt]

Jerry: You should have gotten a Fix-It Ticket and allowed to run that event only. Besides that cowl cover was so gay I felt all warm when I saw it. :oops:

This is the type of things that lack the consistancy that Matt is talking about. Fix-It Tickets are fine with most of us but they do need to be enforced consistantly. Also, if this is enforced consistantly then every racer knows where he stands and will be well aware when he travels to Nats or another region.

Boudy

Boudy,
I agree with every word. It was gay but it went with Michaels hat.

JJ

[Boudy]

Jerry: You should have gotten a Fix-It Ticket and allowed to run that event only. Besides that cowl cover was so gay I felt all warm when I saw it. :oops:

This is the type of things that lack the consistancy that Matt is talking about. Fix-It Tickets are fine with most of us but they do need to be enforced consistantly. Also, if this is enforced consistantly then every racer knows where he stands and will be well aware when he travels to Nats or another region.

Boudy

Boudy,
I agree with every word. It was gay but it went with Michaels hat.

JJ

Yes, it did... :roll:

Boudy

[Wade]

Speaking of non-compliant cowl pieces, I have one fugly piece of wall-art for sale. Free-Fiddy.

[ShadowBolt]

Speaking of non-compliant cowl pieces, I have one fugly piece of wall-art for sale. Free-Fiddy.

Pitch it.


JJ

[David Love AI27]

Speaking of non-compliant cowl pieces, I have one fugly piece of wall-art for sale. Free-Fiddy.

I have the piece you need on my "track" fox body... wanna trade?

[AI#97]

Summations:

Phone calls don't work as it's the same one sided conversation of "this is how we do it....car count....yadda yadda yada." Even the in-person converstation with Todd went the same way.

Current management is ALL CMC....wrong mentality for AI...basis for why I made the statement I did.

Do i speak for anyone...well, I guess I just like to repeat what I hear so much of behind the scenes.

BTW, arguments of you "can't make everyone happy..." are a crock. When the mentality of "it's our way" or there is no effort to make your customers happy at all, yes, you are going to lose a few.

bottom line, there are far too many CMC philosophies being applied to AI and that needs to change. I realize that statement is going to ruffle feathers a little but those in CMC need to ask themselves why they didn't run AI and you will probably see the point. Yeah, AI car count sucks....event though they have been doing it their way while CMC/2 count seems to be booming. Time for a change and try something new.....like customer service for those that demand it. I for one don't want the National CMC director doing ANYTHING for my AI series in my region. To say he has the wrong focus or not enough time for us is an understatement. The rest of the arguements listed is just icing on the cake.

Good luck all.

[David Love AI27]

I guess I just like to repeat what I hear so much of behind the scenes.


Good luck all.

Yep, I fell for that one too... If you convey other people's negative remarks, it makes YOU look like the bad guy. I've decided NOT to try and help with other's complaints. You and I both know who we were standing up for and all it did is make US look like the bad guys... (this is NOT a negative comment, just a statement of fact)

Hope to see you at some track, sometime soon...

Happy New Year to you...

[ShadowBolt]

Speaking of non-compliant cowl pieces, I have one fugly piece of wall-art for sale. Free-Fiddy.

I have the piece you need on my "track" fox body... wanna trade?


David,

I can make one for you on my laser with whatever you want on it (or plain) if you give up your stock one. This is the DL we all love.


JJ

[GlennCMC70]

Cost is the issue w/ AI.
I get told all the time from guys allover the country that they wish they had built for CMC all the time.

[Todd Covini]

The biggest proponent demanding change in AI on the Nasaforums was.....MFW.

Now that real change is happening, the biggest opponent is....MFW.

How about a summation of MFW demands/recommendations for the series?

(I wish you'd just answer calls and/or return phone calls instead of typing.)

-=- Todd

[AI#97]

The biggest proponent demanding change in AI on the Nasaforums was.....MFW. And I was told to shut and made to look like a fool by the three stooges.


Now that real change is happening, the biggest opponent is....MFW. What changed? I need to install a dash in the car next year....



How about a summation of MFW demands/recommendations for the series?


(I wish you'd just answer calls and/or return phone calls instead of typing.)

Nah......

-=- Todd

[mitchntx]

I've been quiet for a week because all this attention Matt has been getting is just stroking his ego.

But when Matt asks "What has changed?", it proves the point that he just wants to bitch and moan for the sake of bitching and moaning.

And the directors are not much better because they keep poking him with a stick. At some point in time, some one has to grow up.

While the change isn't instantaneous, the changes to ABS rules, chassis/drive line hybrids and limits on transmissions over the next couple of years are significant changes for even the dumbest of fringe participants to see that the AI heading is moving away from the fringe and towards center.

So, to wrap this whole thread up ...

Matt's not happy.
Nothing will change that unless the "change" is in leadership.
David repeats what he's told.
Glenn feels he needs to "set the record straight" even though most every one knows and understands the "record".
Todd uses his excess gasoline to ignite the flames all over again.

You know its bad when I've seen enough. It is what it is ...

/thread