Rules enforcement

[MikeP99Z]

Just to get everyones opinion on the topic...

This has nothing to do with flagging calls - which should go through the RD.

This poll is running for 10 days, I'll discuss the results at the annual meeting.

[David Love AI27]

I'd love to help you Mike but:

You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum (cuz your a trouble maker and don't care about the series)

[David Love AI27]

I'd love to help you Mike but:

You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum (cuz your a trouble maker and don't care about the series)

JUST SAYIN...

[David Love AI27]

I'd love to help you Mike but:

You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum (cuz your a trouble maker and don't care about the series)

JUST SAYIN...

I'm sure I'm just being overly sensitive about it...

I'm sure it doesn't bother anyone else, that the rules are different in here..

[David Love AI27]

I'd love to help you Mike but:

You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum (cuz your a trouble maker and don't care about the series)

JUST SAYIN...

I'm sure I'm just being overly sensitive about it...

I'm sure it doesn't bother anyone else, that the rules are different in here..

I mean... you know...

[David Love AI27]

I'd love to help you Mike but:

You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum (cuz your a trouble maker and don't care about the series)

JUST SAYIN...

I'm sure I'm just being overly sensitive about it...

I'm sure it doesn't bother anyone else, that the rules are different in here..


I mean... you know...

I was blocked last month and the excuse was "sorry it was an accident when we tried to change some things"

guess I'll just wait for the next lameass excuse

[David Love AI27]

Black and white baby, director or not, you have a copy of the rules so learn to read because you're getting bitch slapped now

Now THAT my friends is "poking with a stick"

[AI#97]

actually MIke, if you could add, "I don't mind strict enforcement and it would NOT change my 'fun factor' one damn bit" and I could care less if it makes Matt happy.


;)

Then the poll would be complete.

[MikeP99Z]

I can't edit the poll now that a few people have voted, but if a moderator could add: "I don't mind strict enforcement and it would NOT change my 'fun factor' one damn bit" as a selection in the poll, then lets do it.

[GlennCMC70]

i picked the last one.
realize that what is good for me is not what is good for the group. i understand the benifit of compromise.

[Rob Liebbe]

i picked the last one.
realize that what is good for me is not what is good for the group. i understand the benifit of compromise.

Is this statement supposed to be funny, is it a quote from somewhere esle, or was it typed incorrectly?

"realize that what is good for me is not what is good for the group. i understand the benifit of compromise"


Glenn, please check this and clarify.

[GlennCMC70]

Sorry. I intended to say... "What I feel is best for racing for my own personal POV is the last option. But i also understand that is not likely what is best for everyone."

My point being, just because I'm in a position of authority does not mean I can run the ship the way I want to. I have to run the ship the way I think is best for the ship. I voted my personal opinion, but I do not govern that way.


- Is this better Rob?

[rleng1]

I understood Glenn the first time.....does that mean I need help??? :shock:

[AllZWay]

I personally don't see much of a problem with the things are ran now on a local level. I think there needs to be some uniformity among regions though.

I certainly don't want to see SCCA kind of crap here.

You guys searching for perfection are not going to find it in any series at any level.

BTW... I don't have a problem with more tech.

[Fbody383]

BTW... I don't have a problem with more tech.

+1

I just don't understand the sliding scale of enforcement and range of penalties, i.e. penalty differences for performance enhancing vs. cosmetic/etc.

[David Love AI27]

guess I'll just wait for the next lameass excuse

GOT IT... not lame ass at all!! just a "time out" for acting up... :shock:

I liked the old days better, when you got beat with a baseball bat, shaved down in wood shop to make it into a padle... it hurt like hell but at least you had the chance to go back to pullin' ponytails.... :twisted:

I'm sorry, I truely am... If I bring a note from my Mommy can I come back and play with the other children???? :cry:

[GlennCMC70]

I think we all just want the "old David" back. The one we knew before you bought the "3" car.

[BlueFirePony]

I'm with JP.

I've been involved in club sports for my entire life ranging from martial arts to raquet sports to soccer to hockey and now motorsports. 100% rule enforcement is not pragmatic but that does not stop us from competing in spite of the imperfection and then working around the edges to improve in thoughtful ways.

One of the constant tensions in club sports is the local vs national (or even, international) variations. There is some pretty big $ involved in some sports going from local to national level (millions of $ in career potential for a 17 year old hockey player for example) and the incentive to cater to that progression is always there.

As a group we can work to achieve a good balance locally, and for our racers who are fortunate enough to compete nationally, we can also work to make their progression less painful. But I do not want to see the local variance washed away as it is absolutely necessary to growing the sport.

[David Love AI27]

I think we all just want the "old David" back. The one we knew before you bought the "3" car.

It started before that...

Late 2008, fired from job due to a misunderstanding (boss wouldn't even listen)
Early 2009 father disownes me when I tried to clean his home while he was in the hospital
April 30th, father kills himself
May 1st get laid off
Two weeks later father's old girlfriend brings out a hand written will leaving everything to her and three other women (one is my aunt two others I didn't even know)
May 23: ask girl friend to move out of my house
May 24: exGF shots herself in my bed and in a coma 4 weeks before starting recovery
July: old GF starts stalking with constant phone calls, text messages and emails
last 6 months cleaning out my Dad's estate, unemployed and living off of borrowed money while waiting for attorneys and judges (and now banks)
2 months ago daughter gets pregnant with 4 babies... doctors have to take two and it is still "touch and go" for the other two
Son-in-law is transfered to Kentucky, I help them move Jan 5th

Racing was my ONLY release...

The "old David" is gone... and you're not the only one who doesn't like the "new" one, I'm not thrilled with him either...

[Boudy]

This poll is invalid unless clarified.

Matt made a very good point in the other thread. I voted the way I did because I chose to compete in CMC. However, if I were in AI I would have to vote differently.

While rules enforcement may be fine for us at the CMC level, AI requires more investments in money, parts, time, set-up... The stakes are just higher. As one moves on to AI and makes these additional investments, he is more than justified to expect a higher level of rules enforcement.

I think that this should be taken into account on rules enforcement in the future. Though we play together, CMC and AI are different classes.

Boudy

[ShadowBolt]

This poll is invalid unless clarified.

Matt made a very good point in the other thread. I voted the way I did because I chose to compete in CMC. However, if I were in AI I would have to vote differently.

While rules enforcement may be fine for us at the CMC level, AI requires more investments in money, parts, time, set-up... The stakes are just higher. As one moves on to AI and makes these additional investments, he is more than justified to expect a higher level of rules enforcement.

I think that this should be taken into account on rules enforcement in the future. Though we play together, CMC and AI are different classes.

Boudy

Okay, who is with you Boudy? That is a great point and your not smart enough to come up with it on your on.


JJ

[Boudy]

your not smart enough to come up with it on your on.

I'll have you know that I did come up with it on my on! :wink:

Boudy

[BlueFirePony]

This poll is invalid unless clarified.

Matt made a very good point in the other thread. I voted the way I did because I chose to compete in CMC. However, if I were in AI I would have to vote differently.

While rules enforcement may be fine for us at the CMC level, AI requires more investments in money, parts, time, set-up... The stakes are just higher. As one moves on to AI and makes these additional investments, he is more than justified to expect a higher level of rules enforcement.

I think that this should be taken into account on rules enforcement in the future. Though we play together, CMC and AI are different classes.

Boudy

At first I really did not get this investment means more rules enforcement thing, but when I decompose the logic (albeit I might have done it wrong) I get some of the perspective...here is what I come up with:

To me its a Investment <time & $> - Risk < Reward thing.
Rules Enforcement is a means of Risk management and controlling costs (investment) - I think we can all agree there.

1) Arguments around enforcing rules related to on track risk I am all for. Ruling violation vs incidental contact is tough - I got paid when I was a hockey ref but it was never enough so I feel for officials who have to rule on contactissues. As long as I see some clear definitions (maybe with a good archive of situational examples for a baseline - a video gallery, past incidents & their rulings), a process I can use to engage and make sure my voice and available facts are factored in...I am good. In the end it comes down to trust...if I don't trust an official to remain "largely unbiased" then I would take my hockey puck somewhere else. I trust the officials in this region...don't know the national bunch but I'll do my homework before I invest in going up the ladder.
If we as a region have fallen down on enforcing contact then let's pick it up and do it better - let me know how I can help.

2) Arguments around rules related to performance is, to me, pure investment vs reward - any $ I put into making my mosheen perform better is on me. When competitor Y outspends me, and I cannot compensate in skill, then I need to look at the reward and decide if I want to continue to spend. If there were no other optiosn for me to race, I would go elsewhere. I voted the way I did planning to compete in AI (brief stint in AIX for 2010 though now while the tire thing works itself out) - I DID spend a ton of $ and I don't really expect a higher level of enforcement UNTIL AND UNLESS there is a more competitive car count. At that point I may reconsider, but if the reward does not increase substantially to match my investment then it really does not matter what the Risk part of the equation looks like. It may be that my interpretation of the reward is in fact different than other racers.

I've kept my pony within a weekend's worth of ratchet work (and a saws all) from going to CMC2 and it's not because of rules enforcement but rather my concern about car count. Are you saying that if I decide to move to CMC2 that because I spent so much more money on my car that I should expect more rules enforcement?

3) Arguments related to rules about safety...to me this is investment to mitigate risk and I am all for enforcing these within reason. If there is a high probability that violating a safety rule will increase the risk to a competitor of mine, then I should have to park my car...spell out the risk to me and I'll park it myself.

4) Arguments related to appearance rules...uhmmm many a truth be told in jest right? I completely understand the appearance rules and will abide by them, but I do think this is one area that we should give *some* latitude on. Fix it tickets and just don't let people put cameras in their car if they don't have a good looking dash - and maybe make them keep a tarp over it while they are not racing ;)

5) Arguments related to procedural rules ... its a shifting foundation in a for-profit business. I agree with Matt that NASA should mind its customers but they can't cater to moves that don't align with THEIR (yep, they own the business, not me) business model. Yes, we'll all be out of a sandbox if they don't do it right...at least until the next sandbox pops up. I spent years in USA Hockey as a player, official, coach and as a board-member in a local association - paid and volunteer positions. Sandboxs came and went and people said that USA Hockey was not going to survive....in the mid to late 90's people were very vocal that "the writing is on the wall...", "we need a for-profit business model", blah blah. What USA Hockey realized was they needed participation from active (read: active = dues paying, hockey playing) members. They grew from 200,000 in early 90's to around 600,000 today. They focused on growing active members (read: car count) and never stopped...in 2008, after a decade of fabulous growth, they created a department of member development to keep up the growth.

In summary: I support thoughtful, well executed improvements to rules enforcement in places where it will clearly positively affect car count and/or safety.

[ShadowBolt]

your not smart enough to come up with it on your on.

I'll have you know that I did come up with it on my on! :wink:

Boudy

Boy, you got me. You know I was just funnin ya anyway.

Own, Own, Own, Own, Own.

[Boudy]

At first I really did not get this investment means more rules enforcement thing...

I've kept my pony within a weekend's worth of ratchet work (and a saws all) from going to CMC2 and it's not because of rules enforcement but rather my concern about car count. Are you saying that if I decide to move to CMC2 that because I spent so much more money on my car that I should expect more rules enforcement?

In summary: I support thoughtful, well executed improvements to rules enforcement in places where it will clearly positively affect car count and/or safety.

Agreed. Now I try to answer your question from my POV. I can't speak directly for Matt or any other AI racer so understand it's my opinion.

The majority of us here in CMC do this for fun. Yes, there are varied levels of competitiveness but most don't eat, sleep, and breath racing. We don't just wake up on weekends to turn wrenches on our cars and will gladly take the kids to a movie instead. We like it here because we don't have to work on our cars from event to event to show up, race, be competitive, and have a good time. It's an amateur class, it's laid back, it's camaraderie and that's why I chose it. Hence, I don't mind a guy running an adjustable pan-hard bar because it was on there when he bought it. I don't mind running with a guy who intends to put a dash in his car by next event. I don't mind running with a guy who bought his car with long tubes but is still within the numbers.

Now on the other hand if I chose to run AI it's a different story. Likewise, there are varied levels of competitiveness. Guys who just built a budget AI car don't care much but most have $50K plus in cars that are competitive at the National levels. Professional purpose built engines, professional set-ups, blah blah blah... My point is that while many CMC cars can win on a weekend AI is a different story. You've really stepped up when you build and campaign a Nationally competitive AI car. Maybe or maybe not, "Playing with the big boys" but one step closer for sure. As a result, these guy tend to be more serious and with that type of investments and levels of competition, they expect tighter rules enforcement.

Hope that helps. My POV on rules enforcement are related to parts and pieces as mentioned above. I do want FULL COMPLIANCE and CONSISTANTCY when it comes to Contact and Safety.

Boudy

[BlueFirePony]

Now on the other hand if I chose to run AI it's a different story. Likewise, there are varied levels of competitiveness. Guys who just built a budget AI car don't care much but most have $50K plus in cars that are competitive at the National levels. Professional purpose built engines, professional set-ups, blah blah blah... My point is that while many CMC cars can win on a weekend AI is a different story. You've really stepped up when you build and campaign a Nationally competitive AI car. Maybe or maybe not, "Playing with the big boys" but one step closer for sure. As a result, these guy tend to be more serious and with that type of investments and levels of competition, they expect tighter rules enforcement.[\b]

Thanks Boudy...that seems to be the point being made about CMC perspective not aligning with AI needs and I'd get it if the reward was different. Maybe that's the rub? But it does seem to come down to Nationally competitive and goes back to my point about the regional vs national variance...I say the variance its not only OK but necessary for the program at large - we just need to make sure, at a regional level, we don't have a rules package in place that is an obstacle to a nationals bound racer.

[MikeP99Z]

You don't necessarily need a $50k car with $10k shocks, data acquisition, a race motor, a wicked double throw down computer, etc. to be Nationally competitive. Matt and Tommy proved that.

*edited to remove an unintentional negative response, apologies Boudy*

[Boudy]

Sorry Mike. Not trying to take away from any accomplishments that you guys have made. Just using data points to show that AI takes another level of commitment and that greater levels of commitment foster greater levels of competitiveness and expectations.

I came in here, against my better judgment, to give additional perspective in hopes of helping to sort out was is and has become a cluster fuck of finger pointing and blame game. Figures it would get twisted around that I'm shitting on peoples accomplishments... :roll: :roll:

Maybe I should just take another year or two off from this damned forum, it hasn't changed a bit.

Boudy

[MikeP99Z]

Just indicating that the perception that you have to have a high dollar AI car to be competitive isn't true.

[Al Fernandez]

Guys, thanks for sharing your individual perspectives.

[mitchntx]

I came in here, against my better judgment, to give additional perspective in hopes of helping to sort out was is and has become a cluster fuck of finger pointing and blame game. Figures it would get twisted around that I'm shitting on peoples accomplishments... :roll: :roll:


C'Mon, Robert.

We talked for minutes the other day (a new record for you :wink: ) about this kind of thing. It's just the internet and not real life.

If you come to terms with the fact that:

- Folks use the pseudo-anonimity of a keyboard and can and will say just about anything.

- Because its typed by folks who might be very articulate in person, they lack in conveying ideas, feelings and opinions in written form and for a multitude of reasons.

- Egos drive threads more than facts. "Factual" responses fuel the feeling of needing to retort which begins a vicious, never-ending cycle.


You know the people behind the screen names and we know you. You know deep in your soul that no one means any ill will towards you or any one else.

So take posts on internet forums for what they are worth ... nada.

[Boudy]

The problem with that Mitch is that this forum is used as the primary mode of communications for our group. If I don't keep an eye on it then I can't know what is going on and what's coming up. Hell, I still don't know what Rookie Day was all about and only found out about it a day in advance.

I take written word as just that. If I won't tell it to you in person then I won't type it in here. I'm not much for holding my tongue so you're going to get the truth about what I think in both cases. No head games, no posturing, no finger pointing...

Anyway, I only participated in this fiasco to try and help. Hopefully management will be able to extract the good points from all the rhetoric be able to make some positive changes.

Boudy

[mitchntx]

The problem with that Mitch is that this forum is used as the primary mode of communications for our group.


Valid point and it probably isn't going to change any time soon. For those of us who were/are unable to get to the site because of the recent virus uploads, the same problem exists.

It would be a shame for some one to miss out on Saturday's dyno day because they couldn't get here.

But, what can be done?




I take written word as just that. If I won't tell it to you in person then I won't type it in here. I'm not much for holding my tongue so you're going to get the truth about what I think in both cases. No head games, no posturing, no finger pointing...



Yet another valid point.

And that is exactly what I like about you, Glenn, Steve, James and few select others. You guys are transparent.

Unfortunately, many of us are less transparent. Our comments are shrouded in jokes, sarcasm and innuendo. That, more times than not, is misunderstood or misinterpretted as head games, posturing and finger pointing.

I fall into that category and find myself in damage control many times. Those who are transparent take me at face value. While I try hard to work on that, I encourage you to keep things in context.




Anyway, I only participated in this fiasco to try and help. Hopefully management will be able to extract the good points from all the rhetoric be able to make some positive changes.

Boudy


There is no bad feedback. Feedback is just data. Sometimes its good and sometimes not so good. Sometimes we agree and sometimes we don't.

But that is real life, isn't it?

Growing and improving is based upon that data, though. Without it, it would a a ship with no one at the helm.

[Boudy]

Agreed!

WHAT! A dyno day? :roll: Let me go read up.

Boudy

[mitchntx]

See ... you feel compelled to respond.

:lol:

[cjlmlml]

See ... you feel compelled to respond.

:lol:

Mitch, you are stupid.

[mitchntx]

See ... you feel compelled to respond.

:lol:

Mitch, you are stupid.

See ... you felt compelled to respond.

:lol:

[David Love AI27]

See ... you feel compelled to respond.

:lol:

Mitch, you are stupid.

Thought you didn't want to talk?!?!

[mitchntx]

See ... you feel compelled to respond.

:lol:

Mitch, you are stupid.

Thought you didn't want to talk?!?!

See ... you felt compelled to respond.

:lol:

[Al Fernandez]

:lol: :lol: :lol:
I felt compelled too

[BlueFirePony]

:lol: :lol: :lol:
I felt compelled too
Not me....

Oh shit :(