An apology

[Al Fernandez]

During R1 my exhaust failed. At that point the car got VERY LOUD inside, which completely ruined all of the audible indicators I use to drive by. It was alarming how suddenly I went from being able to keep up with the top 4 to barely able to keep the car straight. I was off at every brake point, off at every throttle application...it was a disaster. Right at that point Jeremy caught up to me, and I fended him off briefly until something in the clutch assembly let go and I pulled over.

After the weekend Jeremy told me that he believed I cut his nose off when he was up on me, perhaps not enough to "have position" but certainly enough to need to avoid me. We didnt touch, and he eventually passed when I broke. Later still I heard from Jerry that he though I might have pulled a block move on Jeremy.

To my pal Jeremy...I am sorry if I didnt race gentlemanly, that wasnt intentional. I was really out of sorts with the car and struggling.

[Jeremy Gunter]

Interesting way to put it Al, I had not thought of it from that prospective. Thank You for the apology. This reasoning was not broken down like this in our conversation.

Since this has been brought up on the forums I will say this. This is not the first time the door has been shut, my nose has been chopped or a double blocking move has been made on me by yourself. This was not brought up as a one time deal, it is a repetitive behavior that many folks, including myself, have witnessed and believe to be an issue. You are not the only one to drive like this in our "Group". Maybe I need to be bad guy who brings it to light for everyone, maybe this isn't the place to do it, Maybe the others who speak under their breath at the events will have the balls to say something to you, on the phone, or here. I do ask that this doesn't become a finger pointing thread but yet a thread that allows people to speak something on their mind to a fellow competitor, not a director. I would like to say that I think you are doing great things in this series across the country, as well as all the other directors, any my concerns that have been brought up here and in conversation were not followed by any "that a boys" but I do think they are warranted as well.

If no one tells you their concerns how can we as a group get better? even if those concerns are directed at you or others wearing a NASA TX shirt. I do hope you (NASA TX) can take criticism without holding a grudge. My hope is that we all grow to be better people out of it, and a tighter group of trusting racers and friends. I am not here to stir the pot, but I still want to eat dinner.... Hopefully someone is in charge of cooking...

At the end of the day, I enjoy everyone's company, the community, the racing, and the fellowship. As far as going 2 wide through corners, there are those who I trust, and those who I stay the hell outta their way. Michael told me early on to be careful of the reputation I got within the group. I took this to heart. If we all played by the strict letter of the law, there would be a lot more contact and a lot less hugging after the race... is it really worth the dickhead response of I had position, when if you both gave a few inchs everything would be fine? Like I have heard from this group many times, there is too much respect for us to cheat on each other, shouldn't there be enough respect for us to trust each other not to tear up our toys over one corner?

After all it is more fun to race side by side.

[GlennCMC70]

The thing to remember from this is to talk w/ that driver after the race. This will make them aware before the next race. It may also educate them on how they are in violation. Even if your not mad over the issue, speak to them - thats the best time - when there are no emotions and its all fresh in your minds. You may not be mad at the time, but it could fester and add to an issue you may have in the future.

Good job guys. I would love to see more of this.

[Al Fernandez]

Matt, you continually refuse to comment in any way or form that does not involve insulting me or one of the other directors. You're gone.

[GlennCMC70]

Do you clowns REALLY want drivers to be handling this sort of thing amongst themselves? Didn't that already happen once before...?

Why don't you just pour fuel onto that dynomite and hand them matches?

I guess the list of responsibilities for a director gets shorter every event!

Once again, you show your lack of knowlege about which you speak. I didnt say that the Directors dont need to know. But more times than not, no-one gets told of this except the person parked next to them in the pits. They dont talk w/ a Director or the offending driver. At best, I get a call on Monday night about it. Too late at that point.
If someone feels that the conversation is gonna be a "....pour fuel onto that dynomite and hand them matches" then obviously the best thing to do is to get an official involved first.
But sometimes the fix is as simple as "Hey, you turned down on me." and an apology will follow and possibly both drivers will talk about what constitutes a block or somehting along those lines.

And just to educate you some more, AI/CMC Series Directors in Tx have more responsibilities than any other single Director in the Tx region and possibly the country. And we are constatly accepting more. Not only that, but we are the model used to show other Series Direcotrs how they should perform thier duties.

[ShadowBolt]

I know the rules allow much more but for me the only reason I will ever slam the door on you is if I don't know you are there. In that case I am glad the rules will protect me. You can't always see a car pull up to you. If I know you have a wheel inside my rear quarter I will not slam the door if I can help it. 95% of the guys on the track treat me the same way. I personally don't understand why a person would knowingly cut a driver off in a turn even though the rules say you can move over on them even on the straights. You can't get mad at a driver for playing by the rules. I want to keep my car in one piece. If we are racing for $100,000.00 and it's the last lap I will close every door and would put the chrome horn on you in a second. On the other hand in the fourth lap of a thirty min race for a plastic medal if you get any part of your car inside my rear quarter and I know you are there I will leave you racing room and try to beat you out of that turn or the next one. I don't know but I bet most agree with me. Al is a guy that will slam the door......but it is NOT against the rules so I can't get mad about it even if I don't agree with it. Others will do the same thing, it's not just Al......as I said perfectly within the rules. Jerermy and I were all over each other in R1. Several times I got a wheel on him but he never cut me off. Once in Bus stop I pulled all the way even or maybe a little ahead of him. As per the rules I could have driven out to the right side of the track and put him in the cheap seats. Instead I stayed on the left side and pinched my car down hard and spun the left rear wheel while he drove away from me. This was on the second to the last lap. Even though he held me off until the end of the race and beat me it was the most fun I have ever had since we stated racing with NASA. Just want to be clear.....I don't agree with chopping another driver's nose off but it is within the rules and I will not be upset with any driver that is driving within the rules. No doubt those that will cut you off have an advantage over me since in the future I will have to know I have the pass made or I will not even try it. No hard feeling I hope.


JJ

[cjlmlml]

where is matts post?

[GlennCMC70]

Al removed it.

[Adam Ginsberg]

This is not the first time the door has been shut, my nose has been chopped.....

I'm a bit late to this discussion, but I'd like to comment on Jeremy's post (it's been edited for brevity).

"Nose chopping" and "door shutting/slamming" are interesting terms.

At the 2009 Nats, there was an incident of contact between 2 FFR competitors. The trailing FFR driver complained the leading FFR driver kept "chopping his nose". We viewed his race video to see what was happening.

My observation as the Race Director was pretty simple - since the trailing driver was not yet alongside the leading car, he wasn't where he belonged. The trailing driver would regularly be able to get his front tire alonside the leading driver's rear tire or rear quarter, but not have his front tire alongside the door. And that's a huge consideration.

Look at CCR section 25.4.3:


25.4.3 Right to the Line
The driver in front has the right to choose any line, so long as not to be considered blocking. The driver attempting to make a pass shall have the right to the line when their front wheel is next to the driver of the other vehicle. Note: This rule may be superseded by class specific rules.

As such, if the trailing driver's front tire is NOT alongside the leading driver's door, and the two cars enter the turn, the trailing car is not where they belong, and will likely get "chopped". So, the trailing driver, IMO, really has no basis to get annoyed/angry/etc.

Thoughts from the peanut gallery??

[mitchntx]

http://www.lawmotorsports.net/catcorn.jpg

[Jeremy Gunter]

I will say this, next time this happens, and I will have position by the time the incident occurs, I will follow the "rules" and punt the leading car or at least cause him to purchase a new door. Does this solve anything? Will it gain me the respect I give others? I won't care because by the rules I won't be at fault. Lets all play by the rules and red mist screw each other all the way to the fkin bank...

How's that for a thought Hollywood?

[GlennCMC70]

Just when I was gonna comment on how quiet its been lately.

[ShadowBolt]

This is not the first time the door has been shut, my nose has been chopped.....

I'm a bit late to this discussion, but I'd like to comment on Jeremy's post (it's been edited for brevity).

"Nose chopping" and "door shutting/slamming" are interesting terms.

At the 2009 Nats, there was an incident of contact between 2 FFR competitors. The trailing FFR driver complained the leading FFR driver kept "chopping his nose". We viewed his race video to see what was happening.

My observation as the Race Director was pretty simple - since the trailing driver was not yet alongside the leading car, he wasn't where he belonged. The trailing driver would regularly be able to get his front tire alonside the leading driver's rear tire or rear quarter, but not have his front tire alongside the door. And that's a huge consideration.

Look at CCR section 25.4.3:


25.4.3 Right to the Line
The driver in front has the right to choose any line, so long as not to be considered blocking. The driver attempting to make a pass shall have the right to the line when their front wheel is next to the driver of the other vehicle. Note: This rule may be superseded by class specific rules.

As such, if the trailing driver's front tire is NOT alongside the leading driver's door, and the two cars enter the turn, the trailing car is not where they belong, and will likely get "chopped". So, the trailing driver, IMO, really has no basis to get annoyed/angry/etc.

Thoughts from the peanut gallery??

I know the rule Adam, but people like Jeremy, Michael, Jeff, Rob, Sam, both Garys, David Love, James, Steve, Mitch, and Jay and I and most of the others do not think it's worth it to tear up a car or two when racing for a plastic medal. There are others that race and give you room but a few in our group will run to the rule and let the chips fall where they may. At MSRC I bailed out when I dove under Al. I had position when I hit the brakes but all he had to give me was 3/4 of a car (I forgot about that POS rule). When he started down I thought he must not have seen me (he said he did). Since I did not want to tear up two cars I hit the brakes hard. I caught just a few inches of the rear of his car. I was found at fault but I can tell you had I not hit the brakes two cars would have been tore all to hell and the fault would have been Al's (IMHO, Al may say otherwise). Either way Al was racing to the letter of the rules. I am not mad at AL but I do not agree with the rule when best buddies are racing for nothing but fun.


JJ

[Adam Ginsberg]

Maybe I didn't explain myself very well - sometimes I'm not very good getting my point across.

To begin with, I'm in the same camp as Jerry Jordan, Jeremy Gunther, and many others - we are racing for a $5 plastic medal, and no one is calling me to test drive their F1 car. There have been MANY times I've given up a position because there was no way in hell I wanted scrap 2 cars. I'm with you guys on that, 100%.

That said, let me try explaining again. I'm only using names as examples, nothing more. Don't get yer panties in a bunch. :)

Jerry Jordan (JJ) has a bit of a run on Jeremy Gunther (JG), and is able to get his front tire up to the rear quarter of JG's hooptie just as they enter a turn, but is unable to get his tire COMPLETELY up to the door, then JJ isn't where he belongs. JG has every right to turn in, and "chop the nose" of JJ's car, even tho, IMO, using the term "chopping the nose" isn't 100% accurate, as JJ is not where he belongs. So, JJ needs to tap the brakes, drop back a bit, and get behind JG.

FWIW, I've done this VERY THING myself - stuck an nose in to see if I can make it stick, and realized in short order that it's not gonna work, and have to back out. Conversely, I've had someone stick a nose in, leave it there, and have given that driver room instead of "chopping his nose/slamming the door", and it cost me a position.

I've also been the leading driver, had a trailing driver stick his nose in after I started my turn in, putting his front bumper just barely even with my rear bumper, and nearly got turned around @ ~90+ miles an hour.

Are you guys telling me that you've had a tire alongside the leading car's door, and that driver still turned down on you? If so, then clearly there's an issue, and it should be addressed.

From experience, there are drivers that will play the "aggressive" side of the coin. I've been on the receiving end of it, and gave room time and time again when I had the right to the line, giving up positions/possible race wins because I wasn't going to waste a couple of cars over a $5 plastic medal.

However, I'd finally had enough at one point, and gave clear verbal warning via a few conversations that I wasn't going to take that shit any more, and they'd better take heed. Doing so got my point across, and it didn't happen any longer.

Part of racing is learning how your competition races, and using that information to your advantage. Figuring out who you can be aggressive with and get away with it, and who you can't.

Sooooo.....I've probably stirred the proverbial "poo-pot" enough this evening, and really should get back to work. ;)

[mitchntx]

Jerry Jordan (JJ) has a bit of a run on Jeremy Gunther (JG), and is able to get his front tire up to the rear quarter of JG's hooptie just as they enter a turn, but is unable to get his tire COMPLETELY up to the door, then JJ isn't where he belongs. JG has every right to turn in, and "chop the nose" of JJ's car, even tho, IMO, using the term "chopping the nose" isn't 100% accurate, as JJ is not where he belongs. So, JJ needs to tap the brakes, drop back a bit, and get behind JG.


In a split second of decision making, at elevated speeds ...

JJ Does in fact have a tire just at JG's door. JG, because of whatever reason, doesn't think so.

JG, because the CCR says he can, takes the line.

JJ sees the line going away and slams on the brakes to prevent tearing up his and JGs car.

But, its too late and now, because JJ slammed on the brakes, his tire is no longer at JGs door and contact occurs.

JJs at fault.

So, it would be best, in this scenario, for JJ to say screw you Gunter, maintain his ground, tear up his and JGs car, get pissed off because JG misjudged, piss off JG because JJ hit him, make the parts counter guy very happy and be golden by the CCR.

Under heading #2 of the 2010 CMC rules ...


Good sportsmanship is valued more than finishing position.

This needs to be removed or reworded. Because, to some, it's just not the case. It's ALL about finishing position and let the CCR pick up the pieces.

[ShadowBolt]

Jerry Jordan (JJ) has a bit of a run on Jeremy Gunther (JG), and is able to get his front tire up to the rear quarter of JG's hooptie just as they enter a turn, but is unable to get his tire COMPLETELY up to the door, then JJ isn't where he belongs. JG has every right to turn in, and "chop the nose" of JJ's car, even tho, IMO, using the term "chopping the nose" isn't 100% accurate, as JJ is not where he belongs. So, JJ needs to tap the brakes, drop back a bit, and get behind JG.


In a split second of decision making, at elevated speeds ...

JJ Does in fact have a tire just at JG's door. JG, because of whatever reason, doesn't think so.

JG, because the CCR says he can, takes the line.

JJ sees the line going away and slams on the brakes to prevent tearing up his and JGs car.

But, its too late and now, because JJ slammed on the brakes, his tire is no longer at JGs door and contact occurs.

JJs at fault.

So, it would be best, in this scenario, for JJ to say screw you Gunter, maintain his ground, tear up his and JGs car, get pissed off because JG misjudged, piss off JG because JJ hit him, make the parts counter guy very happy and be golden by the CCR.

Under heading #2 of the 2010 CMC rules ...


Good sportsmanship is valued more than finishing position.

This needs to be removed or reworded. Because, to some, it's just not the case. It's ALL about finishing position and let the CCR pick up the pieces.

Thanks Mitch! This is exactly the way I see it.


JJ

[Alien]

Is the problem that it's not physically possible to jump on the brakes and essentially brake 1/2 car length more than the leading car before apex as in Jerry/Al's incident?

So what could be a proposed solution?

Instead of trailing cars tire to leading door, change it to a.) trailer cars front tire to leading cars rear tire? Or b.) trailing cars front wheel to leading cars bumper? Or an 'extreme' c.) trailing cars bumper to leading cars bumper?

I say extreme in that as Jerry pointed out sometimes it's difficult to know if the car behind you is clear or if they have a few inches on you. I wouldn't want to put blame on the leading driver in that case. I also think c.) would lead to even more aggressive driving if all it took to be 'right' was to poke the nose in at the last second.

[Wirtz]

Some thoughts on the issue, not so much as to what the rule book has in it, but maybe some things to think about?

The cars we are racing have very good parity. Gaining a clear, no questions, margin on a simliar speed competitor is not easy.

If your a leading car, and you see the trailing car is making several attempts, but coming up just short of a clear wheel up, you better start thinking along the lines that you might be holding someone up. That's fine to a point. But remember that plastic trophy or not, fustration is building in the driver trying to pass. That can lead to trying "too hard" and banzai manuevers. They typically don't end well....

Passing, or really, just racing together, is a two way street. You must be willing to give and take. The comments made about what we are racing for are spot on. Personally, it's most important to me to be able to walk up to any of you after a race and shake your hand and talk about the fun we just had.

Expect what you do to come back to you. If your the type to be ultra defensive and use the rule book to protect your actions. The guys racing you will learn this and you better expect they will start treating you in a similar manner. This can spiral out of control at times. I'm not sure what the best solution is other than open discussion.

I think I'm among the more aggressive guys out there. But I truely hope I am treating everyone on track fairly. And if you don't think that is the case, I hope you would come to me and we can talk about it. I love my racing and I love winning. But a win is not worth one of you guys thinking I'm an asshole.

I try to be aware of who I'm sharing the track with at any given moment. And I try to adjust my actions depending on the skill level and what I know about that person. But like anyone, I can always do it better and I can always learn, and I can always make mistakes...

Now that I've written this, I'm not sure if I should post it but what the hell.

[mitchntx]

Some thoughts on the issue, not so much as to what the rule book has in it, but maybe some things to think about?

The cars we are racing have very good parity. Gaining a clear, no questions, margin on a simliar speed competitor is not easy.

If your a leading car, and you see the trailing car is making several attempts, but coming up just short of a clear wheel up, you better start thinking along the lines that you might be holding someone up. That's fine to a point. But remember that plastic trophy or not, fustration is building in the driver trying to pass. That can lead to trying "too hard" and banzai manuevers. They typically don't end well....

Passing, or really, just racing together, is a two way street. You must be willing to give and take. The comments made about what we are racing for are spot on. Personally, it's most important to me to be able to walk up to any of you after a race and shake your hand and talk about the fun we just had.

Expect what you do to come back to you. If your the type to be ultra defensive and use the rule book to protect your actions. The guys racing you will learn this and you better expect they will start treating you in a similar manner. This can spiral out of control at times. I'm not sure what the best solution is other than open discussion.

I think I'm among the more aggressive guys out there. But I truely hope I am treating everyone on track fairly. And if you don't think that is the case, I hope you would come to me and we can talk about it. I love my racing and I love winning. But a win is not worth one of you guys thinking I'm an asshole.

I try to be aware of who I'm sharing the track with at any given moment. And I try to adjust my actions depending on the skill level and what I know about that person. But like anyone, I can always do it better and I can always learn, and I can always make mistakes...

Now that I've written this, I'm not sure if I should post it but what the hell.

Jeff, you and Micheal are proof enough to me that racing clean can be done, be competitive and not get your car beat all to hell.

I know the both of you have been involved and deemed at fault in contact. The incidental and occasional contact in tolerable. The consistent and inevitable contact is not.

I like what you said about a trailing driver getting close, but not able to pull a pass off. For those unwilling to come to terms with their inability to outrun another driver, for whatever reason, is that truly beating your competitor? Is stacking up cars behind you really what you are wanting to accomplish on a race weekend?

At Hallett, I moved over and let folks go that I just didn't want to race. When I did it, I asked myself, why am I spending $400 to race when I can do this for $250 in a TDE DE event?

[GlennCMC70]

Nice post Jeff.

Remember, this is racing. Folks are gonna want to pass other folks who dont want to be passed. That is the game in a nutshell.

If your the leading driver, its your responsibility to see that someone has position on you. You should be ready to allow them to stay there just as much as you expect them to back out if they dont have position.
The opposite is true - if your the trailing driver, be prepared to bail if you dont have position or if the other driver just doesn't see you. What happens when the driver turns down on you? You talk to them afterwards. If it keeps happening, you will not/would not have been the only person telling them as such. Let the Directors know. Show us a clip of video if you have it. The last thing you should do is not say a word and let if fester until it becomes a major issue.

If for example Al has an issue, eventually it will get resolved. I understand at a cost, but I'm not sure how to determine who is pre-disposed to turning down on someone and removing them from the series due to that pre-determination. The "rights to position" rules are in place to determine fault when contact happens, not to prevent it. Being aware of your surroundings is the key to less contact.

It would be great if we all could see that we will be overtaken prior to entering a corner and go ahead and wave them by. And if we institute such a rule "pass w/ a point by only" so the overtaking driver knows he is seen by the leading driver, then we really aren't racing, are we?

As Jeff said, the further you run towards the front, there are fewer and smaller opportunities to make a pass. As the talent gets more equal among us we must work harder at making a pass.


As for the terms "chopping my nose" and "multiple blocking moves" goes. There are too many variables to police this w/out clear evidence of it. It needs to be seen by an official when it happens or post race in a clip. Surely I'll talk w/ a driver who gets multiple reporting of such offences.

The main thing to remember here is communication. Get out of your car and talk w/ the driver you have issue w/. I myself welcome this approach as I'm sure others do.

[michaelmosty]

The cars we are racing have very good parity. Gaining a clear, no questions, margin on a simliar speed competitor is not easy.

Passing, or really, just racing together, is a two way street. You must be willing to give and take. The comments made about what we are racing for are spot on. Personally, it's most important to me to be able to walk up to any of you after a race and shake your hand and talk about the fun we just had.

Expect what you do to come back to you. If your the type to be ultra defensive and use the rule book to protect your actions. The guys racing you will learn this and you better expect they will start treating you in a similar manner. This can spiral out of control at times. I'm not sure what the best solution is other than open discussion.

I think I'm among the more aggressive guys out there. But I truely hope I am treating everyone on track fairly. And if you don't think that is the case, I hope you would come to me and we can talk about it. I love my racing and I love winning. But a win is not worth one of you guys thinking I'm an asshole.

I try to be aware of who I'm sharing the track with at any given moment. And I try to adjust my actions depending on the skill level and what I know about that person. But like anyone, I can always do it better and I can always learn, and I can always make mistakes...


Perfectly said Jeff!! Being able to get out of the car happy and not angry is priority.

(I wish I could quote multiple posts but I am just not that talented w/ computers.)

Mitch said:
"I know the both of you (Wirtz and Mosty) have been involved and deemed at fault in contact. The incidental and occasional contact in tolerable. The consistent and inevitable contact is not."
Spot on!! This is racing and anyone would be crazy to think they aren't going to "run out of talent" during at least one instance on track.
I hit Dave Irwin (AI Mustang) back in 06 and put some pretty hefty dents on his door and 1/4 because of my crappy move. I felt horrible b/c of it and learned a big time lesson about when to attempt a move and when to wait for a better opening.

To add to Glenn's comments:
Communication is key. I agree, if you have an issue then talk to the other driver and work it out. If it can't get worked out then talk to a director. If you still don't like the resolution then talk to Clifton.

I also think it is extremely valuable for every driver to run an in-car camera. If there is ever an incident on track or a driver you question it will provide evidence for you.
It is also a pretty darn good tool to study your videos to learn where your competitors are faster and slower than you. It'll help you learn for the next time you are at that track.

[Al Fernandez]

Like Glenn and I have said multiple times: talk to the driver. If you're not comfortable talking to the driver, talk to a director (not another driver!). We simply cannot fix things unless we know about them, as opposed to reading about them in veiled mannor weeks afterwards.

Myself, I'm disappointed about what is apparently this feeling that I'm out to keep my position come hell or high water and that I'm at the top of the heap of cause for incidents. I'll admit (and have admitted in person to those affected) that last year I drove very aggressively in search for that championship. This year I've tried pretty hard to keep my nose clean. I've had exactly one driver tell me in person in three years that he didnt like something I did on track and that was a long time ago (and we hadnt hit) but for some reason there's this feeling out there that I'm the guy to avoid. I've gone out of my way I thought to ensure you guys know you can always walk up to me or call me and I'll listen, but apparently that isnt enough.

I've been involved in exactly two cases of contact this year, both of which were not my fault: once when Bouddy got loose going three wide into turn 1 and pinballed me into James and another when Jerry got my tail in little bend. In that later case there was an IRB which included Mitch, which decided Jerry was at fault and he was put on probation. Attached is a screen shot right at impact. You decide if there was 3/4 of a car, or more or less to my right. Jerry...if you thought I was slamming the door and had to bail out otherwise the carngage would've been worse then you should've appealed the IRB's decision. Thats what the appeals process is for. Its not about not wanting to appear mean or not wanting to offend someone, its about keeping everyone honest. So yeah I'm on the Shit List, along with 12 other drivers. 7 other drivers have more points on the Shit List.

Which brings me to another point of disappointment, the feeling I get by reading posts (but not by listening to people's concerns when they talk to me in person) that us directors are watching each other's backs. Actions speak louder than words:

Any time a director is involved in an incident we take that director out and bring in an IRB

Every time a director has been at fault the penalty has been much stronger than for normal drivers: I was put on probation for a weekend last year for at fault contact that resulted in no damage while Jerry was put on probation for one weekend for contact that resulted in a lot of damage. Much lesser offense when I was at fault, same penalty. Glenn was involved in a nose to tail contact without damage and without loss of position, that gathers no points for the Shit List but since he failed to report it he was put on probation. Nobody else wouldve been penalized for that.

When James was caught up in a rules violation last year that would've taken him out of the championship and probably handed me the title I was the one that campaigned to change the rule and ensure he and others to come wouldnt be hurt that hard in their championship hunt.

The concept that the folks running the show are doing anything short of everything they can to ensure fairness and keep bias out of the equation is simple ignorance of the facts and I'll have none of it. Quite the opposite is true: officials are held to a higher standard.

To me, candor and honor go together. I try to race hard but clean. When I make a mistake I own up to it in public as evidenced by the first post in this thread. Last year James and I were side to side, had contact, and he was pushed wide and into the dirt. It might have been a racing incident, it might have been at fault contact on me...I didnt wait for that decision. I slowed down, waited for him to catch me, then let him pass me. I wanted to pass him clean and wasnt going to wait for an IRB to say it was ok.

Ok, done venting. At the end of the day, like Jeff said, none of what happens on track matters if you cant go hang out with the other drivers and laugh while you recall the stories. That's what brings me to the track, and when something happens that would keep you from being able to do the same I encourage you to talk to the driver or talk to me. If I'm the reason all the more reason to talk to me!

[AllZWay]

Myself, I'm disappointed about what is apparently this feeling that I'm out to keep my position come hell or high water and that I'm at the top of the heap of cause for incidents.

:lol: I have stayed out of this thread and not posted, because I thought it might have been me after that bad weekend at Hallett. :oops:

[Adam Ginsberg]

The screen capture Al posted (and is reposted below) is EXACTLY the situation was referring to (yes, a pitcure is worth a thousand words) - the trailing driver has chosen to stick their nose in right as the leading driver is turning in.

http://www.aicmctexas.com/forums/files/jordan_fernandez_contact_128.jpg

The trailing driver should NOT be surprised when the leading driver turns down/chops his nose/slams the door in a situation like this - the trailing driver is not where they belong. That's what I've been referring to. The trailing driver has to decide whether to leave his/her nose where it is (and, likely be involved with at-fault contact), or tap the brakes/pull back, and make a better, higher percentage attempt later.

That does NOT mean I condone contact, nor does it mean that the leading driver should just go ahead and slam the door/chop the nose/etc and let the CCR/IRB take it's course.

We as driver's need to recognize when we are in a situation like this, the consequences are significant.

[mitchntx]

You guys certainly circle the wagons, don't you.

Using ANY reading comprehension skill, Jerry was indeed deemed at fault. That has NEVER been questioned. The punishment was a little over the top at first, but finally appropriate and consistent.

And that particular photo does indeed speak a thousand words. And bottom line, it is what it is.

What speaks a 1000 more (remember, Al said I was a part of the IRB) is video that shows where Al blew apex at Ricochet and killed his back straight momentum. We've all done it.

But Al had routinely been pulling away from Jerry for the previous three of four laps. So, when Jerry came through Ricochet and closed 10+ car lengths on Al in that short distance, his first thought was Al has a broken car.

Not "Al fucked up", rather he has a broken car. Jeez, what kind of respect does that show Jerry has for Al's ability?

So with a mindset that Al was broken, all the way to driver's left and going much slower than Jerry, he thought Al was driving off-line so that it wouldn't affect Jerry's race.

Suddenly Al turns hard right, Jerry slams on the brakes and the rest is internet bullshit.

So taking 1/30 of a second in time and jumping to far-reaching conclusions and rhetoric only speaks partial truths.

The issue that remains is that it appears, based upon the previous turn's product and by that thousand word photo is Al indeed coveted finshing order as opposed good sportmanship. MHO ONLY!

In other words ... "I got the line according to the CCR, so let the chips (or fenders) fall where they may." Jerry is at fault and Al is golden.

Al and I have had a conversation and he knows that I just won't race him. Not based on just this, but a long history of contact between us. If he wants it more than I do, fine. Its not worth spending my car on it.

I encourage everyone that has an issue with another driver, that you have an open, honest conversation about that issue. We are all grown-ups, right?

If you chose to tell that driver that everything is OK and then post something that can construed as contrary to that, then that's on you.

Sorry Glenn. I told you today I wouldn't post any more, but ...

The internet is fun, ain't it?

[mitchntx]

I will say this, next time this happens, and I will have position by the time the incident occurs, I will follow the "rules" and punt the leading car or at least cause him to purchase a new door. Does this solve anything? Will it gain me the respect I give others? I won't care because by the rules I won't be at fault. Lets all play by the rules and red mist screw each other all the way to the fkin bank...

How's that for a thought Hollywood?

Do that Jeremy and you'll lose a lot of respect from your competitors.

[ShadowBolt]

In a split second of decision making, at elevated speeds ...

JJ Does in fact have a tire just at JG's door. JG, because of whatever reason, doesn't think so.

JG, because the CCR says he can, takes the line.

JJ sees the line going away and slams on the brakes to prevent tearing up his and JGs car.

But, its too late and now, because JJ slammed on the brakes, his tire is no longer at JGs door and contact occurs.

JJs at fault.

So, it would be best, in this scenario, for JJ to say screw you Gunter, maintain his ground, tear up his and JGs car, get pissed off because JG misjudged, piss off JG because JJ hit him, make the parts counter guy very happy and be golden by the CCr.

Al, what Mitch wrote above is exactly what I say happened at Cresson. You are right that when the pic was taken I was way back at your rear bumper and I did not have position so I was at fault when we hit. And as I said you were racing to the rules. I heard through the grapevine that Todd wanted to throw the book at me because he thought I have divebombed you ( I was not out of control you were jusy not up to speed and it looked like it). He did not know that you were way off normal speed because of what happened the turn prior.

Jeremy and I raced together in R1 at Hallett and I stuck my nose in several times where I did not have position but he stayed on his side and we raced through the turns. I was not able to make a pass on him but we had a blast and laughed and hugged after. It was way more fun than a DE and had I had the skills I would have made a pass but there was no chance of us hitting each other.

I never NEVER outrun Al so when I pulled him by a ton in one short section of track I was sure he was broke. Every time I have ever been behind Al and close he will run a protected line (middle corner entry). This time he was all the way to drivers left. I know I'm at fault but it would have been better had we gone through the turn together with Al staying on the outside. He does not have to but that way neither car gets tore up. I assumed Al did not see me......he says he did. From past experence I would have thought he would have run the the protected line. When he did not do what he usually does and I'm catching him so fast I assumed he had car issues. It was a screwy deal and at times I wish I had not bailed. I do think if I had not both cars would have been tore all to Hell. Al and I have talked this through and we are okay. I just wish we could race through the turns side by side but that is not what the rules call for.
JJ

[mitchntx]

Sorry Glenn. I told you today I wouldn't post any more, but ...


I need to make sure I'm clear ... Glenn never asked me to stop posting. We argued about the issue I stated above for hours this morning and when Al's post popped up I told him I wouldn't respond.

And I guess I didn't, really. It wasn't until that other guy posted that I responded.

[Todd Covini]

I heard through the grapevine that Todd wanted to throw the book at me because he thought I have divebombed you
JJ

How'd I get pulled into this???

Here's another tip...watch more roadracing on TV. Regardless of what the rules are or the penalties doled out, listen to the commentators reactions (unless it's Greg Creamer). That will pretty much tell you what the "bulletin board" test results were for a certain attempt, slammed door, contact or nice pass. TV isn't reality either, but it will give you another perspective.

Great racing on TV goes side by side turn after turn...and we've all enjoyed that as well.

-=- Todd

[mitchntx]

I just wish we could race through the turns side by side but that is not what the rules call for.


Maybe we can get a CMC rules reword that allows us to cut our car down to 3/4 the factory width ... :lol:

Seriously though, I understand that the 3/4 rule is there so that the over-taking driver must be willing to take to the dirt to avoid an accident.

But the other side of that coin is the driver being overtaken has a responsibility as well to make sure he doesn't put himself in a position to be hit.

At least that's the way I read the CCR. I'm sure the wagon master and trail boss will set me straight ... :wink:

[GlennCMC70]

AL's turn-in was not abnormal to anyone elses turn-in for that corner. So that should be removed from the table.
If Jerry assumed Al was broke, thats Jerry's fault, not Al's. If Al was broke, he could be passes at any time and the urgency to do so should not have existed.

Go back and watch the vid (forget the above pic). Take note of Jerry's position relative to Al's turn-in point. No question in my mind.

Al did nothing wrong here - nothing. If your not willing to race a driver who will close the door on you (not chop your nose off), then are you really wanting to race? I personally want you to give me everything you got. Leave nothing on the table. If I beat you, I want it to be because I was better, not because you "gave up and let me have it". Al was giving Jerry all he had. I respect that. I would have never made the move Jerry made as I would have seen the missed turn-in the previous corner, I would have known Al was gonna defend (close the door) and I would have been able to tell my move would not have gotten position and take the 10 cars gained and make a later pass attempt on him. Had contact not been made and Jerry backed out w/out issue, he would have lost all the ground he made up and basically erased Al's mistake. Jerry would have at best ended up still be hind Al or at worst 10 cars back, where he was when AL missed his apex.

So, if you close the door on me, and we touch, its my fault. Its not "how dare you race me that way". "I know its legal per the CCR, but how dare you!" .


It all boils down to - some of us want to race one way and some of us race per the rules. Those who race per the rules are looked down upon by those who are not willing to. That is wrong. I dont look down upon those who are not willing to "close the door". I would rather you race me that way, but I'll never disrespect you for it.

[ShadowBolt]

I'm Glad you (Glen) are a perfect driver and you "would have seen Al screw up in the previous turn and never made the attempt) ......I'm not at your perfect level. This was just an example. I do not agree that my pass was a low percentage attempt. As I said Al did nothing wrong to the rules.....I did. I'm not mad at Al. I'm just saying we could have raced through the turn side by side and all would have been better in my mind. I'm sure Al would have pulled ahead soon. This thread is going to far. I'm in Colorado and I don't want to think about this right now. I'm out.

JJ

[GlennCMC70]

I had no problem seeing all this from your vid. The timing was just not right to complete that pass.

Sorry my comments ruffled your feathers.
Sure Al could have let you stay beside him. He could also pull over and let you pass. I'm sure you wouldnt want that to happen, and from my POV, they are the same thing. W/ no rights to position and Al allowing you to have rights to position, he gave you something. Something you didnt earn.

Sure, I Monday Quarterbacked this. But I also still stand by my comments.

[mitchntx]

I would have never made the move Jerry made as I would have seen the missed turn-in the previous corner, I would have known Al was gonna defend (close the door) and I would have been able to tell my move would not have gotten position and take the 10 cars gained and make a later pass attempt on him.


So easy to make those claims after watching the video a dozen times in an air conditioned office, easy chair and/or sipping a Tab.

Bttom line ... till you are there, behind the windshield, you cannot forcast what you will do. Kreskin is the only guy I've seen predict the future accurately.

[JJordan]

Keep in mind that a wide lens camera does NOT show accurate angles.

For example, this was the standing start (prior to green) of the race when the contact took place. Obviously, he was not letting BL start half a car length in front of him.


Compared to the view moments before contact.


-Jay

[GlennCMC70]

I admitted that was the backseat driver in me. Not the point here.

The point is Al had every right to do what he did, and there should be no expectation of Al to let Jerry stay there or get there. We are only using these two guys as an example as to what alot of folks are talking about.

[GlennCMC70]

Keep in mind that a wide lens camera does NOT show accurate angles.

For example, this was the standing start (prior to green) of the race when the contact took place. Obviously, he was not letting BL start half a car length in front of him.

http://www.aicmctexas.com/forums/files/start_246.jpg

Compared to the view moments before contact.

http://www.aicmctexas.com/forums/files/contact_182.jpg

-Jay

In your second pic, Al has already committed to the turn. Post a pic of when his turn-in starts and note the position of the car from that point in time.

[JJordan]

I'm not saying Al did or didn't have position. Just that is was probably a lot closer than the video looks. Below is a pic of just before turn in. I have no idea how distorted things get at that distance.

-Jay

[GlennCMC70]

One of the things I notice right off is the CMC banner.

[mitchntx]

I admitted that was the backseat driver in me. Not the point here.

The point is Al had every right to do what he did, and there should be no expectation of Al to let Jerry stay there or get there. We are only using these two guys as an example as to what alot of folks are talking about.

The point is not assessing blame. It's already been done. Jerry accepts it, doesn't deny he screwed up. Not sure why you directors, both in and out of region can't figure that out.

The point is had Al used a little of


even though you have the “right of way” it may not be smart to insist upon it.

2010 CCR Appendix A under "Notes"

this thread wouldn't exist, now would it?

Let's go back to Jeff Wirtz's comments that most everyone who has responded agrees with ...



Passing, or really, just racing together, is a two way street. You must be willing to give and take. The comments made about what we are racing for are spot on. Personally, it's most important to me to be able to walk up to any of you after a race and shake your hand and talk about the fun we just had.


For me, this isn't much fun.

So get off high center here guys. Fingers have been pointed, blame assessed, punishment taken. Next?

The issue is deeper than that.

[GlennCMC70]

The point is had Al used a little of

Quote:
even though you have the “right of way” it may not be smart to insist upon it.
2010 CCR Appendix A under "Notes"

this thread wouldn't exist, now would it?

I think your reading that from the POV of the lead car should not have insisted he had the "right of way". That line from the rules goes both ways. From the POV of the lead car as well as the POV of the trailing car.
So as easily as you said "...had Al used a little of ..." the same can be said for Jerry in this case as well, or whoever the next trailing car is. You painting the picture that Al didn't give and Jerry did. I say neither did. It wasn't wise on Al's part to insist on the "right of way" as he received damage from that. Jerry also got damage and also received fault.

Understand that I'm not saying Al SHOULD have closed the door on Jerry, but rather he had every right to do so. And the resulting contact doesn't make it anymore wrong that he did close the door. As you said above, Jerry has enough respect for Al's "mad driving skilz" that when he caught him that quickly he assumed Al must be broken. Could the same not be said for Al having enough respect for Jerry's "mad driving skilz" that he expected Jerry to be able to back out safely when the door was closed? I say yes, that could be the case. Most of your arguments against Al can also be used against Jerry in the very same way.

I've exhausted myself w/ this thread. I understand there are those who do not agree w/ the style of racing that some folks are using at this level. That's OK. I don't agree w/ abortion, but hey, its legal and who am I to judge those who resort to this option. Its an extreme example, I know. But why the "I feel sorry for you" attitude towards those of us who race hard, I don't know.


Jerry, have a nice trip. If it works out, stop in Fort Worth for lunch/dinner on your way back.

[Todd Covini]

WIMBLEDON: John Isner of the U.S. reacts after missing a point against France's Nicolas Mahut in a record-setting endurance test during the 2010 Wimbledon tennis championships in London.

http://www.csmonitor.com/var/ezflow_site/storage/images/media/images/0623-wimbledon-isner/8198861-1-eng-US/0623-Wimbledon-isner_full_600.jpg

[mitchntx]

The stig hs spoken

/thread

[ShadowBolt]

Just two questions.......what would have happened if I had held my ground? I don't know for sure that's why I ask. I have wondered ever since. Remember the lens makes it look like I'm futher back than I was. Also (and most important to me) what would Jeff Wirtz or Michael Mosty have done in Al's place? Both guys are way faster than I. Different way of looking at racing is all I'm saying.

JJ

[Jeremy Gunter]

I have heard people say, we are racing for plastic trophies, yet they quote the rules that contradict this idealistic form of racing. I agree its what the rules state, its what makes our group so competitive, it's one reason we all do it. I know all the directors are great people, they work hard for us racers with little compensation. What they may not realize is the respect they loose while acting not as a director, but as a racer. It's like a supervisor disrespecting an employee in a monhly meeting, or on the job why? Because the rules state he did something wrong, is it worth it in the bigger picture? We all pay to be there, one way or another, this is a business for some, and the rules are pretty clear what we are supposed to do to keep this hobby fun and safe. The problem doesn't lye in the rules or their interpitations, it lies in the delivery of expectations. They say their expectation is to have clean racing without contact, but their attitude towards contact is defensive and reactive. It was nice to see a proactive stance towards contact at Hallett, but I think this may have come from above, which is sad. If jj mitch and many others who are laying low were to have their way, hallett contact rules would have started long before, would be more servere, and would not rely on any 50/50 rules, and in return hard feelings toward any and all racers would be reduced. Not because there would be less contact, but because we would feel as if the governing body was doing its proactive part to reduce it, not just discuss it. When the boss writes you up for being late to work, after he was an hour late, it causes resentment.

This is an issue in my opinion, and we need to address the attitude of it's ok before it becomes an issue that splits the group by causing hard feelings. This should be a topic that makes us all closer by reduceing resentment. This will help us grow thw series instead of destroying it.

Maybe my opinion is way off, but I was able to race a lot of people hard at hallet, without cutting anyones nose, blocking, or playing dirty, and we all ended up acting like jr. High cheerleaders after the race. Things are changing to keep this series fun, why should this topic be any different?

[marshall_mosty]

I haven't raced in several months, so I have nothing constructive to add, except "I'm not a racecar driver, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night"
That's backwards, because I sort am a racecar driver, and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night... oh well. Time for bed.

[GlennCMC70]

2 Comments Jeremy.
The "boss's" here are getting "written up" just the same as the employee's.


..... cutting anyones nose, blocking, or playing dirty.....

So did any of this type stuff happen to you this year? I'm still unsure if you were wronged according to the CCR. If not, can we assume everyone was able to race at Hallett w/out being subject to this senario you outlined above. I have to say, I cant remember when I last raced against a "dirty driver", nor can I recall an example of it happening here.

As for the Director/Racer thing. I wear two hats at the track. I have to switch them back and forth all weekend long. I cant be a Director Racer and I cant be a Racer Director. I have to be one or the other and I switch as required. So while I have the racer hat on, I shouldnt be loosing respect as a Director. Racing is why I'm here, not to be a Director. How many folks in the NASA Tx group from the regional owners down to the lowliest class Director do this for free? I think none. (Covini?)
So there is this conflict in each group. TT has a Director who also races TT. This goes all the way up to a Race Director who races in AI and SM. I dont for one minute think those guys are disrespecting fellow racers by acting as racers while on track. Each is as competative as any of us. They all have made big mistakes. Clifton on down to the HPDE Director. Should they carry any less respect? Surely not. In fact, I think the opposite. For lack of a better term, they are public officials in this "racing community".
I wonder Jeremy, would you be willing to be a Regional CMC Director?

[David Love AI27]

Just two questions.......what would have happened if I had held my ground? I don't know for sure that's why I ask. I have wondered ever since. Remember the lens makes it look like I'm futher back than I was. Also (and most important to me) what would Jeff Wirtz or Michael Mosty have done in Al's place? Both guys are way faster than I. Different way of looking at racing is all I'm saying.

JJ

I think this is part of the learning curve... Wirtz eluded to it eartlier, some race by the book others leave more room... Randy and Jason got together at Hallett and both got out shook hands and discussed it.. Jason was ruled at fault and penalized, BUT both agreed that it was FUN, CLOSE RACING and with their history of racing close it was inevitible that there would be a "rub"...

I got caught up in the "letter of the law" last year and almost left the series... glad I didn't and just chilled...

[mitchntx]

Glenn, what you just can't seem to get your head around is ...

- no one is saying it was Al's fault. AGAIN ... Jerry admits he made a mistake, we all acknowledge it, he acknowledges it ... we get it. No need to keep using the persecution of Al as a way of deflecting the points being made.

- according to the same CCR you thump like a Baptist preacher ...


Lastly, remember that, even though you have the “right of way” it may not be smart to insist upon it. You may be involved in a collision that was not your fault, but you may end up crashing your car, sustain damage, get hurt, or at the very least be punted out of the race. The other driver may get penalties, but that will not help you fix your car, get your position back, or get you out of the hospital any faster.

... paraphrased ... you have legal right to a line ... is it worth it?

I read your posts adamantly defending Al ... again defending him from no one ... and I hear you say "if I have the line, I'm taking it, so deal with it."

And guess what, you are dealing with it right now ... maintain that mindset and you will CONTINUE to deal with it.

Jeremy's statement about a supervisor telling his employees not to be late for work and then he comes in an hour late seemingly blew right past you.

I'll be more direct ...

If what Al did was fine, if that is YOUR mentality, if that is the conduct you want while on course ... If you, or Al or any one else is unwilling to give a little space, ABOVE AND BEYOND WHAT THE LETTER OF THE LAW SAYS YOU HAVE TO, then you can expect the reams of contact forms to continue to be turned in at future events.

And then don't EVER stand up at a driver's meeting and tell us that contact will not be tolerated. When you do that standing next to your car, it's rhetoric. It is a supervisor saying don't be late and then doing it.

No one is asking you or Al or anyone else to pull over and give a point by. Not at all. Many of us just can't race as good as you. You can some how see, comprehend and react to everything that happens in your windshield in an timely and appropriate manner. I'm just not there.

As a possible solution, how about those of us who are "also-rans" get

http://www.lawmotorsports.net/nostig.jpg

printed and put on both the front and rear glass. That way you pros can identify us and not allow us to tear up our cars.

I know why this thread exhausts you. You keep typing the same thing over and over again. Me too ...

[Rob Liebbe]

My response here is about contact. It will start with my analysis of Jerry’s contact with Al and then talk about how Glenn’s on track behavior can be risky.

If you have had enough of this thread, you can stop reading at this point.

First:

Looking at Jerry's pictures and gathering info from the thread:

Jerry came upon Al rather quickly which was not normal given the fairly equal speeds of those cars,

Jerry seems to have approached in Al's blind spot, sit in a 4th gen sometime and you will see how big the right side blind spot is,

Al was going slower than normal and may have been diagnosing a car problem,

Al may not have seen Jerry approaching.

In this case I would have approached Al very cautiously, waited to see if his problem persisted and likely passed him easily at the next safe opportunity. I would also assume that Al was going to take a normal line, cutting down to the apex, until I see him actually do differently. Knowing Al, that's what I would expect to see, but I would assume that with any of the drivers.

I know how Jerry felt – Hey, I caught Al, I can pass him right here! But he may not have thought about why he caught Al so quickly. Was Al having trouble? Did he screw up the previous corner? Was his hood about to fly off and disconnect his battery?

Next subject:

We keep dancing around this.

Glenn's approach is different, he will stick his car inside of someone as they approach a corner, knowing and able to out-brake the outside car thus placing his car in "legal" position. When the outside car turns in, Glenn will not or may not be able to move out of the way, and contact results when the outside car turns in. Glenn then defends himself by saying I was not at fault because I was "legal" and my car looks beat up because I haven't done bodywork on it for 5 years and it is "legal" by the 50/50 rule. This results in a lot of contact with Glenn that others get the blame for. I think Glenn is a very competitive person by nature, he is a talented driver, and he knows and uses the rules to their fullest extent. He is a successful racer as a result. However, I feel that Glenn will get to that inside "legal" position too aggressively and at the edge of control, sometimes beyond control. This is part of the problem, he assumes that the other car is aware that he is there and can or will adjust accordingly. This is a bad assumption as awareness levels among the drivers vary by person and situation. Glenn is also affected by the "red mist" a lot of the time and drives above his limits.

So, what to do?

Glenn needs to be aware that his driving style, especially his diving in under braking has risks that will cost him and others time and money and possibly injury. Glenn also needs to remember the level of racing we participate in and that this is not NASCAR with a lot at stake. Glenn may also want to re-evaluate how he wants to balance how much he wants to succeed and how big an asshole people may perceive him. He has a lot of talent in driving and car setup and can achieve high success even if he backs down on aggressiveness a bit.

I'll ask it direclty. Glenn, please think about what you are doing and adjust accordingly. You may always be "legal" but it doesn't always make you right.

The rest of us can also improve the situation as well. If you see Glenn or any other competitor approaching, be aware of his position as much as you can, especially as you prepare to turn in. Any one of us could be there. Learn the styles and habits of the other drivers around you. I know to watch out for Glenn to dive me at turn in, Burch used to do it too, Corey is bad about it too, and Varner and Wirtz will do it as well, just not as aggressively as Glenn. I'm learning how to do it as well.

Be aware of these things, among many other things and we can reduce car contact and the issues that go along with it. I’m not saying to let the other driver go by, but be prepared, use you car position on track and your defensive move to prevent the other driver from making a signature move.

Talk to the other driver if there is an issue, if that doesn’t work, seek out a director.

There is so much camaraderie and fun in this group, more than any other race group, and we need to do our best to maintain this. There are plenty of examples of fast, successful and clean racers in this group. When we see a racer that seems to be involved in a lot of contact, whether they are deemed at fault or not, I believe further evaluation is needed. They may be putting themselves in situations of unnecessary risk for themselves and others. It may also be that the rules need to be evaluated as well.

I know it seems that I’ve picked on Glenn in this thread. He is my primary concern at the moment. I’ve tried to talk to him about it. I’ve talked to Al about it. I think I’ve mentioned it on the forum. I may not have been as direct about it and I generally come away feeling like I’ve been shrugged off a bit, definitely felt like I’ve been slapped with the rulebook defense, and always come away feeling like I’ve gotten nowhere and I’ll just have to watch out for Glenn on the track. So now it’s more direct, and it is memorialized both on the forum and saved independently in my files.

I typed this because I see issues, I see a lot of veiled discussion, I want my opinion heard and seen, I’m tired of dancing around issues because nobody wants to name names, and most importantly I don’t like to see the group mired in an issue. If this festers we will not have learned from similar issues from the past and we may end up losing friends and good racers like we have done in the past.

Have a nice day – see you at TWS – in my rearview mirrors! 8)

[GlennCMC70]

Thanks Rob. I made an adjustment prior to Hallett. Time will tell if it was enough or if I can change over the long term and if it will change how you guys view me.

I also did get defensive w/ Rob when he approched me. I think the conversation got off on a tangent and I didnt agree w/ what boiled down to semantics. Rob tried.

[GlennCMC70]

]Jeremy's statement about a supervisor telling his employees not to be late for work and then he comes in an hour late seemingly blew right past you.
It didn't. I understand that I'm telling you guys to not have contact. I understand that even after that, I sometimes have contact. Just because I say it, doesn't prevent me from making a mistake. If those words were all it took to prevent contact, I would have a pre-race chant session.
Your boss wants you in on time for a reason. You may be late once and he may or may not write you up. He still has to deal w/ you about it. Same for himself. He may be late sometimes. He may or may not also get written up for it. But am I understanding the intent behind what your saying? Am I not able to remain in place as a Director because I have asked for no contact but have had it myself? Should your boss be fired for being late the day after writing you up for being late?
I'm at no less risk of being sent home w/out pay as you for failure to be on time. I am subject to the same penalties I impose for lack of rules compliance. I could understand this POV if nothing ever happens only when a Director is involved. But I feel the opposite is true.
How many here have been placed on probation for simply not turning in contact paperwork per the CCR? I know its happened. I could even name names. But I also recall nothing was done about it. At this point have I not been held to a higher standard than I myself hold you all?


I'll be more direct ...

If what Al did was fine, if that is YOUR mentality, if that is the conduct you want while on course ... If you, or Al or any one else is unwilling to give a little space, ABOVE AND BEYOND WHAT THE LETTER OF THE LAW SAYS YOU HAVE TO, then you can expect the reams of contact forms to continue to be turned in at future events.

And those reams of forms will not be mine, Al's or whoever else's fault when the CCR's says so. It will be the other persons fault. Myself, Al, or whoever will not be the ones the CCR says increasing penalties will be assessed up to license revocation. I said it before, racing per the CCR does not cause accidents.


And then don't EVER stand up at a driver's meeting and tell us that contact will not be tolerated. When you do that standing next to your car, it's rhetoric. It is a supervisor saying don't be late and then doing it.
So can I ask you to say it from here on out? Do you have fewer dings on your car than what's allowed before one is prevented from saying "No Contact!". What's that number, just so I'll know? 5? 10? 15? 20? Is anyone in our group at zero? Are you saying Clifton cannot chew our ass in a morning drivers meeting for on track behavior. I know he's been involved in contact. I say sure he can. He's been placed in a position where he required to ask that of participants. Same goes for myself. I have to remind you of contact. Its part of what Directors do. As a Director, I've never had contact. As a Director, I never take the track. As a racer, I cannot say that. I'll get a hat that says that so you know who's talking at what times.

[mitchntx]

As a Director, I never take the track. As a racer, I cannot say that. I'll get a hat that says that so you know who's talking at what times.

So do we drivers follow the words of a director or the actions of a competitor?

If directors don't take to heart what is said in a driver's meeting, why should we?

The penalties are insignificant ...

I think this is where you and I diverge. You race the CCR. When I grid up, I grid up next to a human being behind the wheel of a car.

[GlennCMC70]

As a Director, I never take the track. As a racer, I cannot say that. I'll get a hat that says that so you know who's talking at what times.

So do we drivers follow the words of a director or the actions of a competitor?
Your a big boy, find your own way. How does this even fit in to anything we are or were discussing?


If directors don't take to heart what is said in a driver's meeting, why should we?
Who says we dont? What led you to this conclusion?


[The penalties are insignificant ...

I think this is where you and I diverge. You race the CCR. When I grid up, I grid up next to a human being behind the wheel of a car.
You told me the other day, one can produce video to support anyone's POV or claims whether true of false. This comment is an example of that. You have no facts to support those words.

I'm not even sure how to respond to all this. Your putting words in my mouth at this point. I realize now all your after is a fight. The is no end result w/ you. You will find new accusations and twist new comments to support an imaginary argument. At this point I am done.

[mitchntx]

Fair enough ... let me try to clarify ...



It all boils down to - some of us want to race one way and some of us race per the rules. Those who race per the rules are looked down upon by those who are not willing to. That is wrong. I dont look down upon those who are not willing to "close the door". I would rather you race me that way, but I'll never disrespect you for it.

If I wanted to infer and read into that, I would have called you out saying how dare you claim I'm not racing to the CCR. But I didn't, I gave you the benefit of the doubt.

Instead, that says to me that there are those who want to race by the letter of the rule and there are those who would prefer a more conservative approach.

Does that make your wants and desires wrong? Of course not.
Does it make mine wrong? Of course not.
We diverge ...

Section 25.4 has clearly defined rules and regs about passing. And if that is what you want to live by, then so be it. I understand them as well as anyone, I think.

But don't quickly discount or completely overlook words in Section 26 like ...



The purpose of this appendix is to review and clarify the rules of the road as applied to NASA road racing.


The whole intent of the “wheel next to the driver” rule is to make sure that the overtaken driver sees the overtaking driver.


even though you have the “right of way” it may not be smart to
insist upon it.

All of those, in my opinion, point to the person who would not normally be deemed at fault in a racing incident. Washing hands completely of fault by quoting Section 25 and ONLY section 25 is dangerous territory.

I personally think there are more here who prefer it my way as opposed to yours. But between the two of us, who runs the show? I know my place ... been put there often enough to recognize it.

As for the two hats deal ... that might be easy for you distinguish for yourself. From my POV that line is not so sharp.

Does that mean I hold you, Al and Todd to a higher standard?
Yes, it does. I think that comes with the territory. Again MHO.

It is becoming more and more clear to me that racing as defined herein probably just isn't my cup of tea. My standards and expectations are significantly different from those presented here. Again, neither are wrong, just different.

Taking this year off and re-focusing has been a huge help in reassessing my values and priorities.

Don't take that the wrong way ... there isn't a person here (even you, Al :wink: ) who I wouldn't invite to my home and offer them a meal and a beer. Best group of guys going.

[Al Fernandez]

Who locked this? lol

Guys, let me start by reiterating that I prefer honest and candid discussion, as long as people can be adults and not insult one another.

To your points Jeremy, I do not agree with you at all that Glenn, Todd, or myself are reactive or defensive about contact. To clarify:

I was the one that brought up the concept of incremental penalties at Hallett for side by side contact that would otherwise result in no penalty by the CCR. Glenn, Todd, Clifton, and Mike P all collaborated on how to make this happen and we settled on the docking finish positions idea.

I have yet to sit on an IRB or listen to the recommendations of an IRB where the recommendations are even matching that of the CCR unless said recommendations were being pushed by a NASA official. The case with myself and Jerry comes to mind. Read the definition of a punt and the recommended penalties for a punt with damage and remember the IRB settled on a probation for the remainder of the weekend. And by the way, I've gone out of my way to include guys like Jerry and Mitch in IRBs exactly for the reason that I respect their opinion and want their input. Jerry can probably remember sitting in his own RV evaluating an incident with Glenn, which I volunteered him for precisely because Jerry and Jay had similar contact with Glenn at a previous occasion.

I am the one that maintains and shares the Shit List with our officials to enable tracking of repeat offenders. Those not at fault are stored there and gather points just as defined in the CCR. That is NASA's method for tracking and enabling dealing with those taking advantage of the right of way too often. Perhaps it doesnt work efficiently enough, thats a different discussion.

Now, to the point about directors being defensive...well, you can interpret comments like those above as me being defensive, or you can interpret them as me trying to use facts to shed light on the situation so that folks can clearly make up their own minds about what is real and what is not. I will give my drivers benefit of the doubt and assume the majority take the later.

As for myself on...I discussed long and hard with Todd back when about how I felt I was leaving finishing spots on the table because I was so paranoid about having contact AND being the guy standing on the pulpit. Last year I consciously decided to go harder and get those spots. It pretty much worked, and it sucked. This year I've tried really hard to get back to where I was in years past, to some success. Mitch and I have talked about this too since I know he's had the same arguments in his mind.

So, as a director I prefer to steer us towards less agressive, more fun. As a driver, I'm trying my best to keep up with what my intentions as a director are.

[mitchntx]

And upon reflection ...

What I want ... a more conservative approach to racing than what the CCR allows ... is unobtainable.

Being MORE conservative is an unwritten rule and therefore unenforceable.

[Todd Covini]

And upon reflection ...

What I want ... a more conservative approach to racing than what the CCR allows ... is unobtainable.

Being MORE conservative is an unwritten rule and therefore unenforceable.

OK...so now we're getting somewhere. The dawn of realization. Since I don't have a dog in this fight...and we've already agreed that no-one is laying blame on any one person....and this really isn't a director/non-director issue or "that guy" discussion....

What would be "MORE conservative"?

1) Move the "shared road" location from front wheel-door to front wheel-front wheel? (remember, overtaking driver still has the responsibility)

2) Give a full car width of passing room at all times?

3) Automatic CCR penalty for contact (remember, this potentially involves infractions to BOTH drivers...contact is contact, Billy Jean, and it takes two to Tango.)

4) Start with the Hallett contact list and anyone having contact at TWS will be deemed a repeat offender and sent home? (There were, what, 8 people who had contact at Hallett? 4 incidents? I don't have the list.)

Jeremy raised some valid points that if Directors aren't heeding their own advice in the driver's meeting, it becomes a big area of frustration. Very true. (Tonight, my wife scolded my daughter and I for having our elbows on the dinner table while eating...which only began a meal-long plight to be the first person to show mom that her elbows are on the table too!! Very frustrating. It ruined the dining experience to constantly look for "those with elbows on the table".)

From a director's point of view, it's also very frustrating to hear very passionate pleas for moderation and more conservative racing but when incidental contact occurs involving those same vocal people, it's shrugged off as..."Oh that wasn't contact. He checked up...I didnt mean to bump him" or "that was minor, we talked about it...that doesn't count" or my perennial favorite "do I really have to fill out a body contact form?"

The directors try to take the group's best interests at heart, along with the CCR, and administer them EQUALLY to all. The CCR is really all we have as a measuring stick. However, we do have some "series say" to collectively supercede that (if warranted) like we did at Hallett.

So decide now, or in the TWS driver meeting, as to what you all want your penalties to be for contact...and the directors will administer them accordingly to any & all involved. As a non-racer, (and as Al did at Hallett) I will cover this at the TWS driver's meeting so we're all on the same page.

-=- Todd

PS- Here's another Grand Am tidbit. <<this is where you roll your eyes >> In GrandAM, If drivers don't like the way another driver is racing them, they feed that information to the tower via a pit-lane official...real time. The tower will then monitor the racing action more closely between the two drivers. Sometimes the race director will agree with the complaint and take action...and sometimes the race director will disagree with the complaint and choose to reject it. Many times, if a complaint is lodged after the race, and control didn't see it...in essence, it never happened.

Racers build "memory"...however in fairness, the Race Directors must erase all memory and only deal with that interaction, that contact at hand or that incident which occurred. (How biased would baseball be if the umpires took the NY Yankees history into account when calling the game?)

At our level in NASA, we don't have the luxury of notifying the tower real time of how someone is racing us. Race control frankly can't see it all...and unfortunately, is primarily looking for "the big stuff" like offs, contacts and major on track issues.

So if you really feel like you were wrongly raced...let your series director, or race director know soonest...and provide in-car video or something to back it up. If it warrants a closer eye on track, they'll do it.

30-Love
http://www.yocto-tennis-club.com/images/volley-backhand.jpg

[michaelmosty]

So if you really feel like you were wrongly raced...let your series director, or race director know soonest...and provide in-car video or something to back it up. If it warrants a closer eye on track, they'll do it.


This is what I feel is the key point.
IMO, this is part of amateur racing.
I see this whole discussion as a great learning point for all competitors. The only way to change the main discussion point, IMO, is to change the CCR. Until that happens, here is my point of view:
The best advantage you can have is to understand each competitor and learn their strengths and weaknesses. If you know a competitor is going to use the CCR to their advantage, then force your car in there, cause them to react (putting them in a bad situation), and overtake them in the next or later corner.
Not every competitor is going to race you the same way so it is best to learn every tendenancy from each competitor and use it to your advantage.

In the end there is the CCR way and the "your my friend, I want to give you 10 extra feet way". I like to race somewhere in the middle in that I'm going to give you the least amount of room available but try hard to avoid contact if possible.

I think the hard part is that people have formed reputations that are hard to forget.

I'm going to single out Jeremy b/c he is a great friend of mine and say that last year I personally thought he was driving too agressively. He had a couple of incidents of contact last year (some deemed his fault and some not his fault). I thought he needed to tone it back some. As a result we had one of my favorite battles of all time at Hallett in R3 with multiple lead changes over many laps with no contact at all.

In the end, I think everyone is within the rules of racing. Some people push it to the limit and others give it some wiggle room. It is up to us to race every individual accordingly.

[Al Fernandez]

Well, I dont know if Rob would consider this immediate progress, but I feel it is progress :D

Mitch and I spent a bunch of time on the phone last night...here are some key take aways...

1) Even though Mitch and I agreed on almost everything, the world will not be coming to an end any time soon

2) Our concern is not the big damage incidents, like for example mine and Jerry's because these dont happen very often, rather the much more common and much more frustrating side to side ones that the CCR rules as no damage, no deviation, no penalty.

3) The CCR is very clear in its intent and treatment of incidents, as well as how to monitor and treat repeat offenders (section 27.12 which we manage via our Shit List...everyone needs to re-read this section!)

4) The CCR is much more lenient towards repeat offenders and towards definition of "damage" than either Mitch or I would like. 50/50 still means you have a wrinkled quarter panel which is pain to repair. A bent wheel or tie rod does not constitute damage. Ten points in the Shit List is A LOT in one season.

5) The CCR clearly allows for class rules to be more strict. I pushed for the loss of three positions for a botched passing attempt at Hallett, clearly more strict than the CCR. There are many good reasons to continue down that road, but we're better off taking the remainder of this year to talk about it fully and institutionalizing for 2011 than we are knee jerking.

Here is some interesting data for you to chew on. Up to and including Hallett, but ONLY including TX region drivers:
- We've had 37 points collecting drivers
- We've had 311 driver sessions (number of times a driver has been on track for a race)
- 15 drivers are on the Shit List (have collected at least one point according to 27.12) meaning 40% of drivers have been involved in at least one incident
- The current points leader on the Shit List has collected 5 points over three incidents. Two drivers are tied for 2nd with 4 points each.
- There are 12 incidents on the Shit List, so on average we have one incident per session
- A driver can expect to be involved in an incident 4% of the times he/she goes on track (12/311*100)

[mitchntx]

Here is some interesting data for you to chew on. Up to and including Hallett, but ONLY including TX region drivers:
- We've had 37 points collecting drivers
- We've had 311 driver sessions (number of times a driver has been on track for a race)
- 15 drivers are on the Shit List (have collected at least one point according to 27.12) meaning 40% of drivers have been involved in at least one incident
- The current points leader on the Shit List has collected 5 points over three incidents. Two drivers are tied for 2nd with 4 points each.
- There are 12 incidents on the Shit List, so on average we have one incident per session
- A driver can expect to be involved in an incident 4% of the times he/she goes on track (12/311*100)

Another thing we discussed was making the shit list public ... naming names.

Al made good points about potential negative reaction to who is on it and especially leading it. And I agree, today, that would probably happen.

But I contend that seeing that kind of reaction to the list will make a difference when making driving decisions on track.

Consequently, it will take care of itself.

[Alien]

While I think the Shit List itself should remain private, I think the summery of incidents at an event...
http://www.aicmctexas.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3590
should name names. Not so much to single anyone out, but just to keep facts as facts and avoid speculation and hearsay. If someone wants to keep their own record of contacts, so be it.

[David Love AI27]

I think Glenn should go out there and "hit the pace car"... "hit the pace car???" you say "Yes, hit the pace car", he has hit everything else out there I want him to be perfect...

Bad timing??? wrong thread??? my bad...

[Adam Ginsberg]

Bad timing??? wrong thread??? my bad...

LOL....perfect "Days of Thunder" reference, David. ;)

[Boudy]

Bad timing??? wrong thread??? my bad...

LOL....perfect "Days of Thunder" reference, David. ;)

Greatest movie ever made!!!

Boudy

[mitchntx]

Bad timing??? wrong thread??? my bad...

LOL....perfect "Days of Thunder" reference, David. ;)

Greatest movie ever made!!!

Boudy

Ever notice how "Days of Thunder" and "Top Gun" are actually the same movie?

Down and out, tormented by the past pilot/driver gets one last shot at success.

Gets taken under the wing of a seasoned vet that pushes said pilot/driver to succeed.

Unfortunately, ego overshadows talent.

Driver/Pilot is surrounded by talented racers/flyers, but one in particular stands out and they become bitter rivals.

And to complicate matters, our hero and a female professional, one who holds the key to the driver/pilot's success, become romantically involved. The female is fair skinned and blonde and while bumping uglies, spawn a radio top 40 hit single.

Ultimately, each driver/pilot faces a demon ... one that requires a specific dramatic scene that depicts deep thought, intraspection and another crack at a top 40 hit.

Finally, with the help of the seasoned vet and the bitter rival, the driver/pilot is able to overcome all odds and succeed at beating his internal demons.

However, he does wind up second fiddle to the bitter rival, leaving the door open for a very boring sequal.

The end.

[Adam Ginsberg]

Ever notice how "Days of Thunder" and "Top Gun" are actually the same movie?

Hollyweird rarely does many original movies. They go with what sells tickets. Follow the money trail, baby.....

[Rob Liebbe]

I hope the nuclear reactor wasn't leaking whioe Mitch wasn't paying attention to it so he could write his assesment of Hollywood. :)

Mitch, how many other Tom Cruise movies follow the same storyline? Analysis please.

[AllZWay]

I hope the nuclear reactor wasn't leaking whioe Mitch wasn't paying attention to it so he could write his assesment of Hollywood. :)

Mitch, how many other Tom Cruise movies follow the same storyline? Analysis please.

Risky Business...

Guido the Killer pimp is the bitter rival. :lol:

[BryanL]

[quote=Adam Ginsberg][quote=David Love AI27]Bad timing??? wrong thread??? my bad...


However, he does wind up second fiddle to the bitter rival, leaving the door open for a very boring sequal.

The end.

You mean "The Legend of Ricky Bobby"? Shake and Bake.

So to bring this thread together I'll put it in perspective. I think Glenn is Maverick and Mitch would be the Iceman.

Glenn-"What's your problem, Warren?"
Mitch-"You're eveyones problem. That's because everytime you go on track you're unsafe. I don't like you because your dangerous" (Then Mitch chomps down on a leftover warm donut left on the workbenches at TWS in August)
Later in our AI/CMC movie Jeff Burch walks into the showers only to catch the sex scene between Maverick(Glenn) and Charlie(played by Michael Mosty) which looks like something more from Deliverance.

[michaelmosty]

Hey, how'd I get drug into this?

It sounded pretty funny until "Charlie" got introduced. :x

[cobra132]

The hat, duhh.

[mitchntx]

How 'bout them Texas Rangers!

7-2 winners last night over Boston.

[Rob Liebbe]

Great - I had Burch partially talked into coming to TWS or a tleast considering it. He probably won't now. :roll:

All those who would like to have Burch come hang out with us that weekend, speak up.

[AllZWay]

Great - I had Burch partially talked into coming to TWS or a tleast considering it. He probably won't now. :roll:

All those who would like to have Burch come hang out with us that weekend, speak up.

Come on out Burch... Hopefully I will make it. The rear end I bought and installed is howling...so it is going to have to come back out and go to the shop. :x

[GlennCMC70]

Jeff has my vote.

[Adam Ginsberg]

Jeff has my vote.

Back on to, or off the island?? :)

Get yer arse out there, JB. Go have fun.

[jeffburch]

What?
I'm flattered by BL comments.
He's living vicariously thru my eyes, in his own twisted gay Penthouse Forum that would raise even the eyebrows of Freud.
Now, what has me disappointed is noone is busting his balls over it.

Jb

[Crumpacker]

[quote=mitchntx]
Glenn-"What's your problem, Warren?"
Mitch-"You're eveyones problem. That's because everytime you go on track you're unsafe. I don't like you because your dangerous" (Then Mitch chomps down on a leftover warm donut left on the workbenches at TWS in August)
Later in our AI/CMC movie Jeff Burch walks into the showers only to catch the sex scene between Maverick(Glenn) and Charlie(played by Michael Mosty) which looks like something more from Deliverance.

:lol:


+1 for Burch at TWS

[Rob Liebbe]

Leinart is still working off the "credit" he got for kneeboarding on the Igloo lid. But I think it is about time he earned some more "credit" with a new stunt.

[Fbody383]

Wow, you guys had a good time while I was gone.

Since I still look at this from a "rookie's" perspective:

How do you make the determination of when NOT to make a pass?

A LOT of it is seat time and repititions. I will wager a Shiner that I have less seat time than anybody else and even on the odd occassion I'm leading, I sometimes worry that I've parked the car in a corner being too defensive. I still have "questions" about intra-class racing when I'm fighting for position, ala Hallett and chasing Glenn with JK/MM/JG trying to get to the front of their race.

What do the Class of '10 rookies/new guys think?

I don't want to pile on Glenn (too easy a target) but I expect him to hound me and race me hard to try force a mistake. The other side of that coin is I can try to return the favor and let his aggressiveness do the hard work. I expect Wirtz/Liebbe to do the same just slightly less agressively.

Getting started last year I had the mistaken impression from watching the year end compilations that the cars just weren't working that hard. The reality is the guys off the front are running 9.9 tenths and those of us chasing are running 9.95 so we've just taken all the room for error out of the equation. We've elevated the likelihood of something going "off" because everybody, 30 cars at Hallett, is flat-out.

I do like the dialogue and will have to think about the public release of the offenders. I liked the Houston tech callout of who did what. I like getting out of the car and having learned more about racing and still being able to drive the car on the trailer.

Ahh... you guys are the best.

P.S. ~ JB, at least come to TWS and take pictures/vids

[mitchntx]

I don't want to pile on Glenn (too easy a target) but I expect him to hound me and race me hard to try force a mistake. The other side of that coin is I can try to return the favor and let his aggressiveness do the hard work. I expect Wirtz/Liebbe to do the same just slightly less agressively.


Referencing your request of JB about his list of "haves" and have nots" ...

The answer to your question will indeed be who you are.

A driver can make a "bold move" and the next guy will get told "that was too aggressive a move.

Both passes were essentially the same ...

And not to pick on Glenn, if he dives in, has position and dirt tracks out of T1 at Hallett, that was a bold move.

If I go into T1, out brake a CMC1 car and go side by side through the same turn, neither of us losing traction, I get a visit from Todd having to 'splain my aggressive and dangerous behavior.

So ... yes there are the "haves" and the "have nots".

[GlennCMC70]

Out brake / dive in - both the same thing. :wink:

[Fbody383]

Referencing your request of JB about his list of "haves" and have nots" ...

The answer to your question will indeed be who you are.

A driver can make a "bold move" and the next guy will get told "that was too aggressive a move.

Both passes were essentially the same ... Maybe that's what I still don't or won't get to grips with. It seems circular ~ the guy with the winner stickers gets the breaks now that he has the winner stickers. Maybe that's what I sense with Jeremy; I believe he thinks he gives more than he gets and for him that can only be a temporary situation.

I'm not ready to fault a driver for taking advantage of the on-track portion of the rules any more than I would fault one for meticulous car prep. I do think I race differently around different people ~ it would upset me to touch some folks but not necessarily others. Doesn't make it right; regardless, I would hate to spend time/money on the car/penalties.

*** Anybody else game for sending an anonymous ranking of the AI/CMC drivers, ranked from "I'd drive that guy into the dirt/wall" to "I would drive MYSELF into the dirt/wall to avoid contact with them" to an impartial party? *** Heck, I'd even put my name on mine.
SELF EDIT: The sentiment is really to be more along the lines of "I'll take every advantage afforded by the rules" down to "I don't care if it means sacrificing a win, I'm not going to touch THAT other car."



So ... yes there are the "haves" and the "have nots".As long as that's in talent and prep I tend to side with JB that the beauty, art and terror of attacking under braking is what makes the racing fun. If, as some seem (and bluntly I'm probably leaning that way) to believe it applies to racing conduct, then the group still has a little to work through.

We'll know we're there when we can have one group run door/door and nose/tail without contact for the entire race. I guess we all have something to work on.

Hey Mosty, see how that double quote thing works? 8)

[michaelmosty]

Hey Mosty, see how that double quote thing works? 8)
I can do it when quoting one driver but how do you do it when quoting two different people in one post?

[Fbody383]

Hey Mosty, see how that double quote thing works? 8)
I can do it when quoting one driver but how do you do it when quoting two different people in one post?

Sent you a PM...

Oh... and you're closer to the top than the bottom. But probably lower than Kellam or Gunter.

[ShadowBolt]

Out brake / dive in - both the same thing. :wink:

Looking at the CCR examples (and like Al told me at Cresson and I thought he was full of Shit) even if you are door to door the car being overtaken only has to leave you 3/4 car width or it's your (the dive bomber's) fault. I had assumed since Cresson that had I not bailed out Al would have been at fault. After looking at the CCR I was wrong. If it were not for the 3/4 rule I would not have a problem with any of this. IMHO the overtaking driver should at least get a full car width. If he takes more than that then I think contact at the apex should be his fault but if he is against the inside of the turn and the car being overtaken comes down on him..........

Most of the time when I get passed or when I'm passing someone (and yes once in a while I do pass a car) if I was willing to drive to the letter of the CCR most of those passes would not be completed (because I could force the overtaking driver two off). Is this the way we should all be racing?


Looking into the CCR more you can see it's also okay to force a car that is just inside or outside you but not up to your door to use only 3/4 car width going wide open down the straight-a-way. Do you really want to force a guy two off at over 100 MPH? Why not? It's okay by the CCR.

Am I reading it wrong?


JJ

[BryanL]

What?
I'm flattered by BL comments.
He's living vicariously thru my eyes, in his own twisted gay Penthouse Forum that would raise even the eyebrows of Freud.
Now, what has me disappointed is noone is busting his balls over it.

Jb
Of course JB should be at TWS. But I need to work on getting him out all next year as my crew chief/coach.
I wasn't putting him in the Deliverance scene as a participant. Merely as one who I remember as commenting on the shower facilities at TWS or Hallett.
As for living vicariously thru your eyes-no offense but if I was going to live vicariously through someone it wouldn't be anyone on this board.

[mitchntx]

if I was going to live vicariously through someone it wouldn't be anyone on this board.

You've discussed this with Glenn?

[BryanL]

Here's another tip...watch more roadracing on TV. Regardless of what the rules are or the penalties doled out, listen to the commentators reactions (unless it's Greg Creamer). That will pretty much tell you what the "bulletin board" test results were for a certain attempt, slammed door, contact or nice pass. TV isn't reality either, but it will give you another perspective.

Great racing on TV goes side by side turn after turn...and we've all enjoyed that as well.

-=- Todd
I don't watch racing on tv that often. I did record the GrandAm race on Sunday. The intro was filled with the usual highlight reel of wrecks, passes, wins, and contact. But what really caught my eye and made me rewind was the fist throwing fights they showed between drivers in full gear, fights in the pits between pit crews, and heated exchanges between drivers and other pit crews. Didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that those fights were over contact.

JJ-I don't like hte 3/4 width rule and think doing it down a straighaway is the stupidest thing on earth. Just let a lawyer get ahold of that rule in a wrongful death lawsuit.

Again-I ask the directors. Which part of the rulebook carry's the most weight? The good sportsmanship portion or Figure xxx that shows I had a right to punt you?

[Al Fernandez]

Come on Bryan, nowhere in the CCR does it state anyone has a right to punt someone. :roll: All parts of the CCR carry weight and every situation is different. I would say dont put yourself into a situation where you're relying on the judgement of an IRB to avoid a penalty or of your colleagues to avoid being labeled a menace. If make a mistake, then own up to it.

For the record, I think JB needs to get off his lazy ass, build a JB style 4th gen, and come out and race!

Guys, dont get so hung up on the 3/4 thing. Stop thinking about that as license for the car being overtaken to push the other guy out. Start thinking about that as guidance about how good the pass attempt has to be.

One of the premises of the CCR is that it is the overtaking driver's responsibility to ensure a clean pass. The purpose of the 3/4 width is not to give the guy being passed a blank check with which to keep position, rather to drive into the overtaking guy's brain that you really need to have a good shot at pulling this off: if you stick you're nose in and you are so close to the edge of control that you cannot clearly get position AND you cannot pull it out and instead have to rely on the other guy to avoid you...then you shouldnt have stuck it in in the first place.

Now, dont go thinking this is my way of condoning overly agressive defense, it isnt. I'm just saying that IMHO we need to be looking for clean attempts just as hard if not harder than looking at dirty defense. That is the CCRs point of view.

The CCR attempts to deal with those using this to their advantage on the blocking side via the poor sportsmanship rule and driver points. I am of the opinion that the driver points system is too easy, so I'm all ears with regards to how to bolster that.

[mitchntx]

I think the disconnect is the definition of "sportsmanship".

Some feel as long as they don't violate the CCR, they deem themselves "good sports".

Others feel it goes further. If folks get out of the car all pissed off at another driver for on-course conduct, then what kind of sportsmen are we?

As for me, I've drawn my line in the sand and I'm very comfortable with it.

As for the points a given driver acrues which lands him on the "sh!t l!st", 10 points for a season is like having no system at all.

Cut it in half (five points) and have it be a rolling number. No end of season reset.

[ShadowBolt]

Guys, dont get so hung up on the 3/4 thing. Stop thinking about that as license for the car being overtaken to push the other guy out.

BS Al. You can't have it both ways. When I told you that had I held my line against the curb that the two tore up cars would have been your fault. You could not tell me fast enough that I was wrong and all you had to leave me was 3/4 car. Now you say don't get hung up on it but you were going to use it against me had we hit with my car still having all four wheels on tack.

JJ

[David Love AI27]

In 5 years of racing in this series, I've had ONE incidental contact caused by NOT turning in when John George DROVE under me in T1 at MSR Houston... I was put in a situation where I had the RIGHT to turn into JG because he didn't have position. According to the CCR I only had to leave him 3/4 but I tapped Nicks rear tire instead. The contact was so minimal that he didn't even know it happened.

I have NO wins no CONTESTED championships, But I'm proud to think that every single one of you feels comfortable running side-by-side with me through ANY corner at every track were we race... I'm SOOOO tired of the "evolution of a pass" and the bickering over inches... I will return the respect you give me, two fold... I give way cause I CHOOSE to not because I HAVE to

Can we end this now and go racing...

[Fbody383]

Can we end this now and go racing...
+1

I keep writing and deleting... I hope we're making progress.

If I had a full sack I'd post up my list.

[Boudy]

Guys, dont get so hung up on the 3/4 thing. Stop thinking about that as license for the car being overtaken to push the other guy out. Start thinking about that as guidance about how good the pass attempt has to be.

One of the premises of the CCR is that it is the overtaking driver's responsibility to ensure a clean pass. The purpose of the 3/4 width is not to give the guy being passed a blank check with which to keep position, rather to drive into the overtaking guy's brain that you really need to have a good shot at pulling this off: if you stick you're nose in and you are so close to the edge of control that you cannot clearly get position AND you cannot pull it out and instead have to rely on the other guy to avoid you...then you shouldnt have stuck it in in the first place.

Now, dont go thinking this is my way of condoning overly agressive defense, it isnt. I'm just saying that IMHO we need to be looking for clean attempts just as hard if not harder than looking at dirty defense. That is the CCRs point of view.

The CCR attempts to deal with those using this to their advantage on the blocking side via the poor sportsmanship rule and driver points. I am of the opinion that the driver points system is too easy, so I'm all ears with regards to how to bolster that.

Sorry guys, I didn't want to enter this one, BUT...

First off, I can only speak for myself and the number of CMC drivers that I associate with in the Texas region. I have absolutely no idea what others in other regions think.

Stop looking at theory and intent of a single person writing a CCR when you should be focusing the majority of what your participants want, otherwise known as "REALITY." The reality is that every driver in this series will sit around the beer tent and gladly tell you about the greatest session he ever had. The story that follows is always about how he and another driver went head to head for x number of laps while passing back and forth while never touching cars and giving each other just enough room to keep 4 wheels on asphalt. Not ONE driver will describe his greatest session as the one where he rode behind someone who he knew would put him in the grass every time he tried to step up and see who could make it through this asphalt corner the fastest.

It doesn't really make a shit what Jerry's intent was, the rule as written does not accomplish it's intended goals. I along with most of my competitors will not, under any circumstances, willingly put wheels in the dirt. As a result, the majority of us have our most cherished sessions when we have the chance to battle those who won't force the issue because the rules allow it. We have the least enjoyable sessions when we are behind a driver who we can just get a door on and might have a chance but have to stay well behind because we fully understand that he will put us in the dirt. The end result encourages risky moves because it ends up being the only way to get past a driver willing to exercise the rules, even if you're a tad faster. Everyone's complaint is about the drivers willing to exercise the rule so when you advise us "not to get hung up on the 3/4 thing" it is actually you who is out of touch with the series because you're focused on the intent of the rules "as written" while loosing touch with what the majority of competitors are telling you they cherish most.

We don't want contact! However, the CCR as written does not allow for passing without unnecessary risk. You can't have BOTH!

Additionally, for you to think that us supporting you in changing the points system to fix this issue is disillusioned and absurd. Count how many drivers contemplate a pass based on the points system... I've supported the direction and goals of this series since the day I got involved, I've invested thousands of dollars with zero expectation of return just to help guys out and promote what I thought was the "Right Direction" of this series. However since the series has grown, the level of competition has elevated to the point where the 3/4 rule is leading to less enjoyable racing for the majority of the field.

I'm not as competitive some, however, I'm am as competitive as the average guy here. And that's just where the problem comes in. The more competitive the guy gets, the more willing he is to use 3/4 rule against guys who are not willing to push it because contact is not worth it to them. Again, the result is a less enjoyable weekend for the guys who fit into the majority category while affording the aggressors to feel like heros. That's the reality of the rule as written, intent is irrelevant. If you're not able to understand this and impart the reality of the growth of NASA up the chain then you're doing a disservice to all parties.

Yes, I'm on the Shit List. However, I understand why and that is my first step to correcting my own issues which are contributed to seat time. The issue in question here is not about seat time but primarily about those with the most seat time, those who can and do lead.

Consider this, If you and your car are good enough to win then you are good enough to do it with everyone's wheels on the asphalt. If a guy is faster than you with all 4 wheels on asphalt then you deserve to be passed and not have the right to stick him in the dirt to protect your position.

Further explanation necessary means that you're just not F'n listening to your troops and the consequence is eventual decline in car count. We've seen a wonderful serge and I can only hope that we are capable of adapting to increased car count and competition levels.

rb

[Al Fernandez]

Well, first of all, lets sepparate AI/CMC from NASA CCR. All of this is CCR related, which none of the AI or CMC directors have either written or been asked to edit. One of the roles of the TX AI/CMC officials is to enforce the CCR, and that is what we're trying to do. And for the record, I have had this discussion with Jerry, Ryan, and Lindsey. I have asked them to consider modifying that and have been told by all three independently that from their point of view it works as it is intended and that those taking advantage of it for defensive purposes need to be handled via other means. I'm following orders here.

I agree wholeheartedly that nobody wants contact. I would go farther in saying that is a general concensus within NASA classes. I do not think that we in particular are special in that regard, nor are we special in the amount of contact we have. The guys being outspoken here keep coming back to this 3/4 width as if it were the reason for some extreme amount of contact due to some extreme amount of people taking advantage of this rule. I dont see that. I dont see one single incident on the Shit List that resulted because someone forced someone else into the dirt. Lets not blow this out of proportion. The reason for this discussion is understanding right? I know my phone isnt ringing off the hook with people calling to give me their list of drivers that have forced them off the track...

Jerry, I wasnt trying to tell you I WAS going to close to 3/4, I was trying to help you understand what the CCR states. Had you held the inside edge AND had I closed off to 3/4 AND you had NOT had position then the CCR states it would've been your fault. Had you held the inside end AND had I closed off to 3/4 AND had you HAD position the CCR states it would've been my fault.

[mitchntx]

have been told by all three independently that from their point of view it works as it is intended


It would be intersting to find out if ST, GT and SM all have 1/3 of the field on the "sh!t l!st"?

How about other regions?

I think it prudent to figure out if this is the norm or we're "special".

[AllZWay]

Can we end this now and go racing...

Amen Brother David....

I don't see a way to solve this other than complain to directors if someone is racing you in an unsafe manner.

I tend to race folks in a manner in which they race me and since I have made my own mistakes I am reluctanct to be too critical of someone else's driving.

[Al Fernandez]

complain to directors if someone is racing you in an unsafe manner
That is exactly right James. Listen, I feel the need to keep typing because I know that I am either not being clear in my message.

The end goal is to have clean, safe racing, I think everyone agrees there. The differences come in when we define "racing". The CCR is heavily slanted towards defending the driver being overtaken and that is because the majority of the time there is an incident it is because the driver attempting the pass did not do it cleanly.

Now, memory is biased, but I can remember two cases in Texas where we assigned fault expressly due to the 3/4 rule. This year memory is perfect because of the Shit List and I can tell you not one incident happened because someone left less than a full car width. Not one.

Now, it feels to me that drivers are being frustrated because they had to aggressively alter their course in order to avoid contact after a pass had been initiated (past the bumper) but they didnt have position (wheel to the driver). There are many reasons for this situation to occur, but I know this:

1) Unless drivers come to me or one of the other directors and tell us then we cannot do anything about it. I know for a fact I am not getting those comments when drivers have that opinion.

2) If a driver is closing to less than a car width and forcing unsafe avoidance that is not ok and that driver is going to be dealt with. Unfortunately all we have had regularly as evidence of this is when there is contact due to this situation, and that isnt very often. You guys have to tell us otherwise we will always be powerless to do anything about it.

[BryanL]

Come on Bryan, nowhere in the CCR does it state anyone has a right to punt someone. :roll:
Guys, dont get so hung up on the 3/4 thing. Stop thinking about that as license for the car being overtaken to push the other guy out. Start thinking about that as guidance about how good the pass attempt has to be.
The CCR attempts to deal with those using this to their advantage on the blocking side via the poor sportsmanship rule and driver points. I am of the opinion that the driver points system is too easy, so I'm all ears with regards to how to bolster that.

I know Al but it was fun writing it. I'm not hung up on the 3/4 rule though I think it should be 1 full car as I think its dangerous to require a guy to put two in the dirt. I think its more about whether contact is accepted, expected, condoned, etc. I do know that I learned early that there are those that use the possibility of contact as an advantage/intimidation against those trying to race clean.

I totally agree that the points system is a joke. Is it a waste of time to discuss or is it something that can be changed within CMC? I don't recall anyone ever being given a one race suspension but have to think there has been contact that was "Damage" according to the CCR? Section 27 also says the shit list should be published in Speed news but apparently I don't get this publication.

The real question is something I thought of reading Boudy's good post. How do the majority want to race within this tiny group of 30 or so racers? Figure that out and let everyone know what to expect.
It does seem like this comes up every year along with how do we get more people to race. Maybe the two go hand in hand as I know we have lost racers due to contact. But how many have stayed away due to contact?

If you don't have any interest in this topic then no need to comment. If you do have an interest speak up or PM Al

[Todd Covini]

I don't watch racing on tv that often. I did record the GrandAm race on Sunday. The intro was filled with the usual highlight reel of wrecks, passes, wins, and contact. But what really caught my eye and made me rewind was the fist throwing fights they showed between drivers in full gear, fights in the pits between pit crews, and heated exchanges between drivers and other pit crews. Didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that those fights were over contact.


My point exactly. The more roadracing you watch on TV, the more readily it becomes apparent as to who was in the right or wrong. Watch a race as if you were the race director, and who would you place fault on that contact? How many times were your decisions validated by the TV race director? How many times were your decisions different than the TV conclusion? The commentators will even help you with their opinion.

Many times, there will be a resolution after the heated exchanges following contact. Either the really pissed off guy has a rightful reason to be pissed off...or he looks pretty stupid because he was actually the one at fault...and everyone knows it but him. How many speeches have we heard "uh...after watching the tape, it appears as though I may have been wrong. I thought....".

Racing coverage on television tries to distill the racing or contact down to who should have done what and what is generally accepted...and what is not. Even if there isn't contact, many times the TV crews will show replays of an uncool maneuver...a slammed door...or an attempted punt....and the commentators job is to highlight that action...report it...and your pitlane commentators run back & forth to "that" pitlane spot and get the crew's reaction to it. They seek who was right...who was wrong. They tell you when penalties may be pending. Many times, penalties are called...and it's clear, but not always. "Racing Incident" is the proverbial TIE...shit happens...or too close to call.

Another thing with racing on TV, is that it becomes readily apparent when someone is holding up the field....and conversely, when someone is charging up thru the field leaving a wake behind them. Watching how the field deals with it can be an eye opener.

Once back behind the wheel...those mental images replay inside your helmet as you hopefully try to "race" people like your TV heroes...and perhaps not "defend" or "divebomb" them like those bad boys of the sport.

-=- Todd

PS- Brian...for you & I, this image should keep replaying in your helmet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovukNXNikiA

[mitchntx]

what is generally accepted...and what is not


And that's what I'm after ... what is generally accepted by the WHOLE group, not a vocal few, not those on an undisclosed shit list, not those who run the show ... rather the group.

If bumper cars is the acceptable norm, then it is what it is. I'm willing to accept that and move forward.

I'm asking for similar respect ... if it's NOT the acceptable norm, then I ask for similar considertion.

I'm now seeing a few willing to go "against the grain" and expressing some concerns about where we are headed. So it's no longer Mitch the whiner or Mitch the puss.

Someone I respect a lot said to me just a few days ago, if there is a single person that has an issue with me and I disagree, I'll probably chalk it up to something else. If two or three or four have an issue with me, then I probably need to step back and take a look at what I'm doing to cause it.

[Todd Covini]

Mitch,
Are you after what's generally accepted by the entire racing community worldwide or are you after what's generally accepted by the Texas AI/CMC racing community. There may or may not be a difference.

PS - While it's been more than a few days ago that we last spoke, I respect you a lot too.

-=- T

[mitchntx]

Todd, I could care less about what the consesus is in NASCAR, Grand AM, F1 or at Cowtown Speedway. I don't have a dog in that race.

What's "the norm and acceptable" is what I see in my windshield, not on some LCD screen somewhere.

I'm not risking injury and damage to some one else's person or stuff while sitting in my barcalounger.

I know some think they are || that close to getting a call from Roger or Chip or Jack.

I'm a realist ...

[GlennCMC70]

What's acceptable is soooooo very subjective.

10 tornado's a year?
7 eathquakes a year?
average temp of 75 all year?

I want 0 tornado's.
I want 0 earthquakes.
So on and so forth. We all want the same thing, but our level of acceptance is as different as each of us from one another. So are people who live in Cali wrong due to accepting 7 earthquakes a year and not moving? Unlike us who live here and think they are nuts. Does that mean they condone earthquakes?

From what I see, some are wanting to force their level of acceptance onto others.

So how on earth are we gonna come to an agreement as to whats acceptable to the whole group? My level of acceptance (as a racer, not a Director) is obviously much higher than most cause I'm still here racing. One day it may surpass that level, and I may quit. Some have reached that point already while others are on the brink. Its a personal stance as to what your willing to accept. Some people dont do HPDE due to the level of possible contact. For most of us here, we have a much higher level of acceptance as the risk is much greater as most all of us has moved from HPDE to racing.

crap folks, its racing. :roll:

[mitchntx]

So accept your way or hit the hiway?

[Todd Covini]

I'm goint to take the liberty of locking this thread. I think we've heard a lot from both sides, and a lot of great arguments. I will also say that I've seen some maneuvers from directors & non-directors...both from the tower and YE video that raised my eyebrows....and I watch a far amount of pro-racing on TV. :wink:

So...we'll discuss it a bit more at the TWS driver's meeting to see if the group wants a "new norm" and you can rest assured that I'll be watching with a more keen eye. If you feel like someone was reckless....bring it to my or any official's attention. We'll rule on it and address the issue accordingly.

-=- Todd

[GlennCMC70]

Foul...you can't have the last, last word after it's locked just because you have access.....sorry Glenn. Not fair to your sparring partner.

-=- Todd

[GlennCMC70]

You got the last word.

[cjlmlml]

Im not a director, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express.