on track incidents and the CCR

[Al Fernandez]

While we all eagerly await the Landrum/Liebbe incident to be final, I thought I'd open a different discussion about what direction we should be taking.

Our group (AI/CMC Texas) enjoys quite a few perks that other groups and other regions do not. We have enough cars in a region with relatively low car count to get our own run group. We have a high amount of rules bench strength relative to other groups in that we have two national directors and a part time race director in addition to a regional series director right in our midst. That is why the some of the responsibilities of the Race Director (Clifton) have been delegated to us: it relieves him of some work so he can focus his time where it is needed, and it enables our drivers more access to those making decisions. Its a win win, and indeed the model NASA employs at Nationals and would prefer to employ always...except the resources simply are not always there.

Because of this we have more flexibility that others. We need to take advantage of that flexibility when it comes to handling contact. But...we also need to be absolutely clear. Lets start with some thoughts:

1) Any contact needs to be reported to Al immediately after the session. 30 minutes to complete a contact form. Al can waive the need for a form for cases such as nose to tail contact and other simple circumstances. In Al's absence this is handled by a named delegate (Todd, Glenn, Mike...we'll announce it)

2) The CCR guidelines for penalties will be the default standard with no lowering of the standard for first offense.

3) All contact will be maintained on the Shit List by Al. The Shit List will be published on these forums after each event.

4) All penalties issued during the weekend will be posted next to the grid sheets during the course of the race weekend so drivers know.

5) We will maintain a list of drivers elligible to be part of an IRB. Any driver can volunteer to observe an IRB for the purposes of their education.

Some of this is now happening, some is new. All of it is clarification of the written CCR, not anything going against the grain. I'd love to have your thoughts. My thought is we discuss and make decisions for the 2011 season.

[Al Fernandez]

6) An IRB will be formed to evaluate any driver who has earned five points on the Shit List. This IRB's recommendation for action must be approved by the Race Director.

7) The Shit List points will span two years, not just one.

8] All reports of overly aggressive driving resulting in no contact will be evaluated and IF found to be as such will be documented on the Shit List for IRBs to be able to resort to as documented driver history. (we cant fix what you dont tell me about, but if you tell me we can track it IF it is valid)

These thoughts are clearly over and above the CCR, but potentially good paths towards cleaner driving? I'm thinking out loud here, what are your thoughts? Of course we could simply go back to being like every other group and simply let NASA handle all CCR related/contact issues 8)

[Al Fernandez]

uhhh...well this might go down as the shortest brainstorming session in history. :lol:

Looks like Jay and Shannon want to centralize handling off all contact in the Texas region. Details are not finalized and are a work in progress, but at this point my understanding is we should anticipate the changes to center around:

a) All contact reported to a Tx IRB Lead (who might be Todd) at the tech shed, immediately after the session is over

b) Clifton makes the call if an IRB is necessary or if he can make the call immediately

c) If an IRB is needed, it will be staffed by NASA TX approved folks from a short list to include Mixon, Jay, series directors, and others to be named later

d) Mixon will maintain a Shit List for all NASA TX

I've not been involved in the conversations, only heard about it from Clifton today. More to follow...

[Casey_SS]

Al - it sounds like the "brainstorming" side of this thread is a no go but still a few thoughts I'd like to share:

1. As a new driver coming into the series I'm happy to see that contact is being taken seriously and the rules vs. reality paradigm is becoming more aligned and visible to all in the series.

2. That being said, I'm mildly concerned the series may be veering towards the "other" guardrail behind the scenes. My biggest fear is having my freshly built racecar balled up through no or very little fault of my own. My second biggest fear is spending all this time and money to build the car for a series in which the driving experience isn't that far off from what I've been getting in HPDE or TT....and spend more money per event to top it off. I don't think anything happening right now is "bad" per se but I do wonder what unintended consequences may surface within the group dynamic....there's admittedly no good way to predict that though. Not much help am I? :)

3. I'm leery of power moving from those who actually race in the series and have helped it grow over the years to those who do not / have not / probably won't. This just doesn't make sense to me....I'm cashing in my "new guy" card on this one....what's the logic here? If I screw up and need to be judged shouldn't it be by a jury of my peers?

BTW - how many "new guy" or "FNG" credits do I have at my disposal? Don't want to burn through my allotment too fast :)

[mitchntx]

1.
Agreed. But the rules are clear (in most cases) about penalties for infractions. If deviation occurs, swinging either way, then those trying to follow the rules are swinging at a moving target.

2.
You will learn who you can race with and who its not worth racing with. The magnitude of the incident between Glenn and Rob is a very rare occurrence.

3.
This bothers me the most.

I'm not sure I agree with having a group of "company men" being judge, jury and executioner. Based upon recent events with "the company", it appears the comapny comes first and the needs of the racer are farther down the priority list. Same goes for out of class members.




BTW - how many "new guy" or "FNG" credits do I have at my disposal? Don't want to burn through my allotment too fast :)

I think Neary has been assigned to mentor you. You must do everything he tells you. This is how you earn FNG credits.

8)

[michaelmosty]

I agree with Casey and Mitch on #3. The initial thought of this bothers me greatly.

[AllZWay]

I think Casey is right on target.

I am afraid we are moving to HPDE rules before long.

[GlennCMC70]

I feel this will go the way the "NASA TX will conduct all Tech Inspections" thing. They will realize how much of a workload this was that they didnt have to deal w/. It will also be an issue when we have a short amount of time to resolve the issue and the "Chief of IRB's" will be on track or have thier own issue to resolve in addition to multiple IRB's going on at once.

Also - this change is not solely due to my IRB and how it progressed. Some other classes have been having issues as well w/ thier IRB proccess.

[Al Fernandez]

My understanding is there is a telephone call Wed night amongst NASA TX core officials (ie not series directors) to progress. Share your thoughts with Clifton and or Shannon as they will be there.

Casey, FNG credits and bourbon and cokes for directors have about a one to one relationship :wink:

I dont think anyone in our group wants DE or BMW Club rules, but I do think open discussion and candid feedback has been short of the target on this subject resulting in people having their own opinion instead of a common understanding of what the CCR and NASA (national anyway) expect. If you look back through our forums we've had wickedly heated debates on technical rules...but precious little about this.

[Adam Ginsberg]

I feel this will go the way the "NASA TX will conduct all Tech Inspections" thing. They will realize how much of a workload this was that they didnt have to deal w/.

Ding, ding ding....we have a winnah!

NASA TX will say, "We'll handle it!", and it doesn't get handled. At all.

[Waco Racer]

I've never felt so much love.

I'm pushing this issue to make things better. This proposal is not new to NASA.

It's a good thing I don't go to the rare extremes like some of you do, 50% of this group would have been suspended at least once in the last 2 years.

Workload? You don't know all of the details yet. NASA Texas gets slammed for "knee jerk" or lack of reactions to things. This one is being handled the right way. Either contribute in a positive manner or sit back and watch.

If you don't have faith in what I am doing then let me know. But, you had better come correct.

[AllZWay]

I've never felt so much love.



Clifton... I think you do an awesome job. You have always been tough but fair.

If you were referring to my knee jerk comment...it was not meant to you at all, but more about the group as a whole going from not wanting contact due to over agressive driving to now over punishing for contact that was accidental.

[BryanL]

Great suggestions Al. I pretty much agree with all of them. I think you know after my involvement I think it should be mandatory for all rookes to audit an IRB. And if a veteran hasn't done so every 2 years or something they should be required. I haven't spent this much time in the CCR since I got my license.

I have no problem with #3.

Casey-I really like your attitude and insight as a new guy. Your biggest fear is what keeps most people away from racing. Though my biggest fear is injury to someone else first and me second.

I don't see that we are headed towards DE rules at all. Echoing Al-I think we are headed towards a more common understanding of what to expect on the track and what to expect from penalty's as outlined in the CCR.

Let us know Clifton. I'm sitting back to watch or hear what the proposal is going forward.

[Fbody383]

Either contribute in a positive manner or sit back and watch. Trying to, sir. First rodeo for several of us. You help me understand what I need to do and I'll work on that.


My biggest fear is having my freshly built racecar balled up through no or very little fault of my own
Casey-I really like your attitude and insight as a new guy. Your biggest fear is what keeps most people away from racing. Though my biggest fear is injury to someone else first and me second.
You are allowed to drive around at the back of the field and leaving multiple car lengths between cars. And you can always give the corner to the guy hounding you. I'm not trying to be flippant; in my mind the close, tight, aggressive racing that can allow situations to happen IS what I signed up for.

But, if I understand that you want to "race" but not "RACE", I can come to an understanding of what situations to present you with. I'm comfortable that "racing happens." As long as I don't touch Carley's ride.

One of my main concerns was the "how" the IRB happened; in part because it took away the opportunity for auditing.

[GlennCMC70]

I've never felt so much love.

I'm pushing this issue to make things better. This proposal is not new to NASA.

It's a good thing I don't go to the rare extremes like some of you do, 50% of this group would have been suspended at least once in the last 2 years.

Workload? You don't know all of the details yet. NASA Texas gets slammed for "knee jerk" or lack of reactions to things. This one is being handled the right way. Either contribute in a positive manner or sit back and watch.

If you don't have faith in what I am doing then let me know. But, you had better come correct.

Dont take my comments towards you to mean that I dont think you can put together a viable option, but rather that everytime we take somehitng off the shoulders of the Directors and place them on a single group, the opurtunity for it to fail seems to increase.
We have 3 Directors who can manage a few IRB's a year, now your talking about 5-7 folks handaling all IRB's for the year and/or a given weekend w/ some requiring quick and swift action due to the schedule. Its more managable at the Director level. Its a lesser work load.

[Todd Covini]

Guys,
Give Clifton's approach a chance. While the result of this IRB has been finalized, there are some areas for improvement. Communications and Consistency among all the NASA Texas series is what we're after.

If Ken Brewer ever stops playing with toy cars and comes racing with AI/CMC, he should see the very same driver points system, IRB process and penalty issuance that he saw with his toy car series. That's the goal.

I haven't seen/heard the NASA TX "new deal" just yet, however, I fully believe that some series representation would/should be a part of any IRB for racer familiarity. We just want to be sure that IRBs are done promptly, with experienced members where the findings are communicated uniformly upline so there are no surprises in the event of an appeal.

As far as "auditing" the process, that's what we had Bryan for in this one. He saw how the sausage was made... :lol:

We'll discuss the proposed New Deal on Wednesday with NASA TX and let you know the plans going forward. (The good thing is that we don't have another race for 2 months, so we will have plenty of time to discuss it.)

-=- Todd

[David Love AI27]

but more about the group as a whole going from not wanting contact due to over agressive driving to now over punishing for contact that was accidental.

Are you really saying that a 2 time national champion "accidently" lost control of his car... AGAIN!!!

If that would have been Jason, he would have been accused of "over driving the car"... period...

Jason was on probation for contact, THAT HE REPORTED at Hallet and he did his very best not to have contact while at TWS, INCLUDING GIVING GLENN LOTS OF ROOM!!!!!

[BryanL]

As far as "auditing" the process, that's what we had Bryan for in this one. He saw how the sausage was made... :lol:

-=- Todd

Todd-You sure you would put it that way and not...We had Bryan there so we could put the sausage in him?

Love-Great Point. There shouldn't be any difference and most (I know I have) of us have driven over our head at some point.