Agressiveness driving versus over-driving the car...

[gt40]

At what point does agressiveness become over-driving the car? When does a driver become too agressive.

Some would say when the driver constantly attempts low-percentage moves. However, in my OPINION, top-quality drivers are the ones that make those low-percentage moves and pull them off more often than lesser drivers. In a lot of folks books that makes them agressive drivers.

One of the biggest challenges in our form of racing is balancing agression with preservation. A pro driver can write off a car and not worry too much about it. We can't be so cavalier about it, since the loss of the car may mean missing the next event or the rest of the season (or may push us out of racing for good.)

Thoughts?

[GlennCMC70]

I have similar thoughts. A move you call low percentage is really one that you believe you can't consistantly pull off.

A pro NBA player shoot's from the 3 point line all the time during a game. No one calls those low percentage shots. But if I was to do the same thing, it would.

[ShadowBolt]

I have similar thoughts. A move you call low percentage is really one that you believe you can't consistantly pull off.

A pro NBA player shoot's from the 3 point line all the time during a game. No one calls those low percentage shots. But if I was to do the same thing, it would.


A missed three point shot does not take cars or possibly people out. Making moves over and over that you can't pull off most every time you are taking a big chance with others people's money and even their life.


JJ

[cjlmlml]

Bottom line, dont drive like a douche. Very Simple

[michaelmosty]

I see agressive driving and over-driving as two completely different things.

Any one of us has and will over drive their car at some point in time, this is one of the risks of racing. Stuff happens but it shouldn't become a regular occurrance. There is a big difference in learning the limits of driver and car AND plain driving beyond your ability.

When relating this to racing here is a question:
During an instance where "you" initiate a pass what goes through your head?
Is it, the CCR's or 3/4 of a car width?
If so, then I see this as agressive driving. I know it is within the rules but the rules also clearly state that you can be completely legal and still get a smashed up race car.
My $.02

[Crumpacker]

I see agressive driving and over-driving as two completely different things.

Any one of us has and will over drive their car at some point in time, this is one of the risks of racing. Stuff happens but it shouldn't become a regular occurrance. There is a big difference in learning the limits of driver and car AND plain driving beyond your ability.


100% agree

Agressive Driving - making low percentage moves, "squeezing" other drivers 1/2 tire into the dirt, etc.

Over-Driving - getting in a situation where, if everything doesn't go to plan, you will have contact/spin/etc. (Ex. brakes locked while passing or defending on the inside.) That's how I hit Marvel in Houston. Over-Driving on my part.

[Fbody383]

I see racing, agressive driving and over-driving as three completely different things.

Any one of us has and will over drive their car at some point in time, this is one of the risks of racing. Stuff happens but it shouldn't become a regular occurrance. There is a big difference in learning the limits of driver and car AND plain driving beyond your ability.

Generally agree.

Racing - the nose to tail, wheel to wheel activity that separates the group from TT and HPDE. The goal is to finish in front of other cars in your class. The rulebook establishes expectations of behavior. A learned behavior that takes experience to improve upon.

Aggressive Driving - to some, the complete exploitation of the rule book. To some driving within the 1' "safety" cushion and 1 car width. To some, repeatedly taking what are deemed high risk chances, potentially such at Francis inside you T1 TWS counterclockwise.

Over-Driving - Francis in T1 TWS Counterclockwise or putting yourself in a situation where, if everything doesn't go to plan, you will have contact/spin/etc. (Ex. brakes locked while passing or defending on the inside or track out onto the grass looking for ice cream.)

So the question is, how do we gain experience racing while not over-driving or driving too aggressively?

[gt40]

A lot of what everyone says makes sense.

I think that agressive driving is making low-percentage moves and putting the car into potentially risky situations (like trying to out-brake someone going into a corner.)

The cynic in me thinks that overdriving is when you don't pull the move off and lose control of the car to some extent (brake lock-up, going off-track, spinning, contact, etc...)

I think, upon reflection, that these are not separate things. The difference (if there is one,) is a difference in degree.

Take Glen's incident with Rob. Was he driving agressively? I think so. It was a pass under braking that put him side-by-side in a corner. Was he over-driving? IMHO, yes, sort-of, technically, since the car spun and there was heavy contact.

BUT if he'd caught it when the rear kicked out and hadn't snap-spun, folks would be applauding the pass and the awesome save. Those kind of moves make the highlight reel. Would anyone have accused him of over-driving the car then?

Sadly, he didn't and there's two busted race cars because of it.

I think, in the end, it's a non-question. Over-driving and agressive driving are two sides of the same coin. The main difference is one of outcome and opinion.

Is it necessary? No. You do NOT need to drive agressively. and therefore you do NOT need to over-drive your car.

If finishing last is OK with you.

Agression is part of the game. You have to be more agressive than the guy in front of you to pass him. Sometimes a little and sometimes a lot.

Top-tier drivers are those who use that agression WISELY and appropriately. Call it wisdom, talent, luck, or experiance -- it's all something we need to think about. The next time you think about sticking your nose somewhere on a race track, you need to think whether it's worth the risk, because there will always be a risk.

[gt40]

So the question is, how do we gain experience racing while not over-driving or driving too aggressively?You race -- a lot. You drive agressively, but not too agressively. And when the folks you race with have concerns about your wisdom (or lack thereof,) your talent, or your attitude, they let you know about it. And when they do, you fix whatever's broken.

In the end, its a leaning experiance for everyone and there are going to be bumps and bruises along the way. That's racin'!

[MikeP99Z]

I need to do some over-aggressive driving someday. :D

[GlennCMC70]

I have similar thoughts. A move you call low percentage is really one that you believe you can't consistantly pull off.

A pro NBA player shoot's from the 3 point line all the time during a game. No one calls those low percentage shots. But if I was to do the same thing, it would.


A missed three point shot does not take cars or possibly people out. Making moves over and over that you can't pull off most every time you are taking a big chance with others people's money and even their life.


JJ

I'm obviously not qualified to answer this then.

I still stand by my comment. Agressive is a subjective term and the line will be drawn in different places by different folks, usually based on thier own skill set.

[Todd Covini]

CONTROL is the difference.

There are a lot of aggressive drivers in the series....we applaud your efforts.

Over aggressive drivers are ones who are on the fringe of losing it....locked brakes....sliding tires....drifting turn after turn....2 wheels off....4 wheels off.....taking "aggressive" to a whole new level.

That's the difference, and the corner workers and tower is watching it all.

-=- Todd

Sing it Janet Jackson...."CON-TROL!!!"

[MikeP99Z]

..sliding tires....drifting turn after turn....

Style points.

[GlennCMC70]

We should issue the corner workers score cards.

[Mrs. Crumpacker]

..sliding tires....drifting turn after turn....

Style points.

I thought using the e-brake made you go faster around corners????

[gt40]

CONTROL is the difference.If that's the difference, it's a very fine difference.

Carroll Smith, Mark Donohue and others have said that to drive the perfect lap, you must be on the edge of losing control of the car, 100% of the time, That is the only want to extract 100% of what the car is capable of.

So, it follows, that to drive as quickly as possible, one must be on the ragged edge of losing control, at least occasionally. the more you do it on a lap, the faster you will be.

But being on the edge, you're going to cross it occasionally. (How do you know where it is unless you cross it?)

Or changing conditions can move the edge away from where you think it is (oil on the track, cold tires, a bump that wasn't ther the last time you were at that track -- it happens.)

My point is as a good race car driver, you HAVE to be as close to the edge of losing control as possible, at least sometimes. If you aren't very, very close, someone else will be and they'll be faster than you, all else being equal.

And being close to the edge means occasionally you'll step over it. You'll be driving with the same amount of talent and determination as you were earlier when you wern't "over-driving" the car but this time you do gross the line and poof" you are.


Over aggressive drivers are ones who are on the fringe of losing it....locked brakes....sliding tires....drifting turn after turn....2 wheels off....4 wheels off.....taking "aggressive" to a whole new level.I can buy that, as long as it takes into account how often it happens. If I occasionally get over my head and the car breaks loose, locks up the fronts, etc... that's just agressive driving. If I do it turn after turn after turn, then that enters the realm of stupidity or as I refer to it, a "deficit of talent."

The difference is one of degree.

[Crumpacker]

..sliding tires....drifting turn after turn....

Style points.

I thought using the e-brake made you go faster around corners????

I actually had a green student ask me where on track he should be using the e-brake!! Not kidding.




I think that agressive driving is making low-percentage moves and putting the car into potentially risky situations (like trying to out-brake someone going into a corner.)

I don't think out-braking someone into a corner is aggressive driving as long as you leave yourself an out. Make sure you still have the ability to maneuver your car if they turn in on you. http://vimeo.com/11248181 7:10 I made a move to out brake you but left enough maneuverability to slow it down further and put the driver tires on the curb to avoid contact. Had I come in full tilt (but not locked) I would consider that aggressive but not over-driving.. that "aggressive" move would have turned out badly for both of us. Had I come in tires locked, RA1s smoking, I would have called that over-driving.

...at least, that's my interpretation.


BUT if he'd caught it when the rear kicked out and hadn't snap-spun, folks would be applauding the pass and the awesome save.

Negative. Well maybe the spec miata guys.


Would anyone have accused him of over-driving the car then?

Absolutely.


Agression is part of the game. You have to be more agressive than the guy in front of you to pass him. Sometimes a little and sometimes a lot.

I agree aggression can help create a passing situation where one may not exist, but at what cost..? Reputation? Sheet metal? Injury?

I say you have to be smarter and faster (or more consistant) than the guy in front of you to pass him.

[MikeP99Z]

Slip angle - around 6*, is really a fast way to drive the car, but a bit harsh on the tires.

Feint, Flick, etc. - are driving styles to go through some corners. - none of which are termed as illegal by the CCR.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavian_flick

[Crumpacker]

All my views on aggressive driving are really aimed towards the low-percentage, inside passing/defending attemps. Those are the ones that cause trouble when they fail.

locked brakes, sliding, 2-off, 4-off - no big deal as long as you didn't just dive under someone. I do my fair share of all of those :wink:

notice I didn't mention spins in there... spinning (on your own) is over-driving in my book.

[Fbody383]

All my views on aggressive driving are really aimed towards the low-percentage, inside passing attemps. Those are the ones that really cause trouble when they fail.
10:55 (http://vimeo.com/6904506) :?

Or Mosty with the sneak attack from off track left

And Sam, I tend to agree... spinning by oneself ~ overdriving.

[Crumpacker]

All my views on aggressive driving are really aimed towards the low-percentage, inside passing attemps. Those are the ones that really cause trouble when they fail.
10:55 (http://vimeo.com/6904506) :?

Or Mosty with the sneak attack from off track left

And Sam, I tend to agree... spinning by oneself ~ overdriving.


yeah, that was close... rookie move for sure. I was thinking over/under and you were thinking 2-wide. I've learned alot in the past year (that was my first full race weekend). You almost got some orange on that car prematurely. :oops:


Nice Ninja Edit!

[gt40]

All my views on aggressive driving are really aimed towards the low-percentage, inside passing attemps. Those are the ones that really cause trouble when they fail.Yep -- I'm thinking of my horrible attempt at out-braking you at ECR last year.

[mitchntx]

Take Glen's incident with Rob.


Yes, lets do ...

Remember me saying over and over and over not to hang your hat on video evidence? Video is two demensional and only one sense can be counted on. Audio tracks are too easily altered or sometimes just don't exist.

At first, second or even tenth glance, it appears Glenn goes screaming past Rob "out of control".

But go back and look again ...

What's that? Rob goes from 4th to 3rd WAY before the right side rumble strips begin ... WAY early? and then? Glenn goes "screaming" past.

So, IMHO and from my Monday Morning QB perspective, what appears to be Glenn screaming past Rob "out of control" is actually, Rob, slowing down early and squeezing Glenn to the inside giving the two demensional viewer the appearance of Glenn laying blaze to the asphalt.

Why would Rob want to do this?

Rob's move would do two things ...

- makes Glenn lose momentum negotiating the turn
- sets Glenn up for a textbook cross-over move.

This puts Rob in perfect position to regain the position at T3. Rob's a smart racer. This is the most credible scenario, IMHO.

Glenn, because of internet induced paranonia, pinches his car off in an over zealous effort to leave Rob plenty of room on driver's right, spins ....

And the rest is history.

This is not an effort to defend or point blame at any one. What's done is done. But those of you with snapping turtle like grudges need to get over it and move on or this is going to divide the group permenantly.

Your witness ...

[Crumpacker]

That situation sounds familiar.



I was thinking over/under and you were thinking 2-wide.

[ShadowBolt]

Take Glen's incident with Rob.


Yes, lets do ...

Remember me saying over and over and over not to hang your hat on video evidence? Video is two demensional and only one sense can be counted on. Audio tracks are too easily altered or sometimes just don't exist.

At first, second or even tenth glance, it appears Glenn goes screaming past Rob "out of control".

But go back and look again ...

What's that? Rob goes from 4th to 3rd WAY before the right side rumble strips begin ... WAY early? and then? Glenn goes "screaming" past.

So, IMHO and from my Monday Morning QB perspective, what appears to be Glenn screaming past Rob "out of control" is actually, Rob, slowing down early and squeezing Glenn to the inside giving the two demensional viewer the appearance of Glenn laying blaze to the asphalt.

Why would Rob want to do this?

Rob's move would do two things ...

- makes Glenn lose momentum negotiating the turn
- sets Glenn up for a textbook cross-over move.

This puts Rob in perfect position to regain the position at T3. Rob's a smart racer. This is the most credible scenario, IMHO.

Glenn, because of internet induced paranonia, pinches his car off in an over zealous effort to leave Rob plenty of room on driver's right, spins ....

And the rest is history.

This is not an effort to defend or point blame at any one. What's done is done. But those of you with snapping turtle like grudges need to get over it and move on or this is going to divide the group permenantly.

Your witness ...

One thing I do not want is to divide the group.

I only posted what I was told by several people that were at the race that would not post. All said Glenn was out of control from turn in and corner workers were calling in Glenn's agressive driving plus he was going to be black flagged for hitting a cone. Since I was not there I should have kept my mouth (or keyboard) shut. I let Glenn's history guide me. I don't know if Mitch is correct or the people that called and told me Glenn was out of control. I can tell you that IMHO the only way to know for sure would have been to see it in person. Since I did not......I'm out.
If I was wrong I'm sorry Glenn!
JJ

[mitchntx]

Its not you posting your opinion, Jerry, its this ...



what I was told by several people that were at the race that would not post.


All this whispering and rumor mongering is what will drive the wedge.

Its not a thread on the internet. Thats a convenient excuse and does nothing to address the real issues.

If any one has a problem with me, then call me and lets work it out. Don't call 3 or 4 others, get them all stirred up and then form a lynch mob.

That solves nothing.

[mitchntx]

And let me say further ...

Glenn's driving is deemed overly aggressive because he dove in underneath Rob.

But Eric diving underneath me, tires ablaze and two wheels in the dirt at No Problem was a bold move.

Is the only difference that Eric was able to save his tank slapper?

Or was it because I realized he was faster than me and I said "Oh well, I'll get him next time?"

What if I had grabbed second gear and stabbed the gas and hit Eric?

Would Eric still have been the aggressor or would it have been me?

Perception is a funny thing, isn't it. It's not based on fact or reality ... just opinion.

[AllZWay]

All my views on aggressive driving are really aimed towards the low-percentage, inside passing/defending attemps. Those are the ones that cause trouble when they fail.

locked brakes, sliding, 2-off, 4-off - no big deal as long as you didn't just dive under someone. I do my fair share of all of those :wink:

notice I didn't mention spins in there... spinning (on your own) is over-driving in my book.

I agree almost completely with this assessment.

Mostly I condider Aggressive driving where the overtaking car forces the other car they are overtaking to possibly make evasive maneuvers to avoid contact. While this may be legal... I am not a fan of and occassionally have been guilty of as a result of my own OVER driving.

[AllZWay]

But those of you with snapping turtle like grudges need to get over it and move on or this is going to divide the group permenantly.


I am afraid this is happening also.

[Rob Liebbe]

Take Glen's incident with Rob.


Yes, lets do ...

Remember me saying over and over and over not to hang your hat on video evidence? Video is two demensional and only one sense can be counted on. Audio tracks are too easily altered or sometimes just don't exist.

At first, second or even tenth glance, it appears Glenn goes screaming past Rob "out of control".

But go back and look again ...

What's that? Rob goes from 4th to 3rd WAY before the right side rumble strips begin ... WAY early? and then? Glenn goes "screaming" past.

So, IMHO and from my Monday Morning QB perspective, what appears to be Glenn screaming past Rob "out of control" is actually, Rob, slowing down early and squeezing Glenn to the inside giving the two demensional viewer the appearance of Glenn laying blaze to the asphalt.

Why would Rob want to do this?

Rob's move would do two things ...

- makes Glenn lose momentum negotiating the turn
- sets Glenn up for a textbook cross-over move.

This puts Rob in perfect position to regain the position at T3. Rob's a smart racer. This is the most credible scenario, IMHO.

Glenn, because of internet induced paranonia, pinches his car off in an over zealous effort to leave Rob plenty of room on driver's right, spins ....

And the rest is history.

This is not an effort to defend or point blame at any one. What's done is done. But those of you with snapping turtle like grudges need to get over it and move on or this is going to divide the group permenantly.

Your witness ...

Mitch, I'm afraid your analysis of my actions/tactics/thinkig are not correct, so I will give you my recall.

First off thanks for giving me the "smart racer" credit but it really is too much credit. I rarely setup passes two or three turns in advance and then only after several laps of watching and learning. I do believe I am a smart racer but in other areas.

Glenn almost always tries to pass me on the inside of turns, Turn 4 CW at TWS is one of those where he does it especially often so I know to watch for him. I don’t blame him for it because it is one of my weaknesses and he is perfectly right to capitalize on it.

Coming out of turn 5 going to turn 4 I knew Glenn was back there. My downshift into 3rd gear was about where I always do it. I downshift to prep for acceleration on exit and not for deceleration and rev match way high in the rpm range. There was no intentional slowing early to pinch Glenn's momentum. My goal was to take the corner as fast as I possibly could to stay ahead of Glenn. As I prepared to enter the turn, way before the actual turn in point I checked my mirrors, Glenn was moving to the inside because I had failed to protect it. I saw him go in, thought about turning in a bit early to defend against him, but realized it was too late and stayed outside. I did not pinched him to the inside. In fact if you listen to the audio, you can hear that I am in the "marbles" on the outside of turn 4 when he goes by me and starts to spin. I watched him dirt track as I've seen him do many times in the past, thought he was going to collect the car straight in the middle of the track. That is when I decided that I might be able to capitalize on his mistake and pass him on the outside. I downshifted into 2nd and matted the gas pedal to go by him. Unfortunately, Glenn's car snapped to the right directly in front of me and we hit. I pointed out the downshift and gas to Todd and Clifton on their review of my tape and even told them I was willing to accept partial blame. Had I not hit the gas, I believe there would have been contact anyway, just further back on his car.

That’s what was going on in my head at that time.

I know I've been quiet on all this but I’m still thinking and formulating possible responses to other threads and posts but I have been extremely busy with work, family, and even jury duty (we convicted a child molester) since TWS. All that and trying to figure out Nationals and what to do about repairing or replacing my race car.

Mitch has a cat – I have a totaled race car.

[mitchntx]

Thanks Rob. I appreciate first-hand accounts.

And you are still a smart racer ...

[gt40]

Thanks for your account, Rob. That matches up with my assumptions based on the in-car video you posted. I'd have done pretty much everything you did, up to the point you downshifted to second. I dunno if I'd have had the forethought or balls to try to take advantage of Glen's loss of traction.

In the end, I don't see any compelling evidence, based on what's been available to us, that leads me to believe either one of you were 100% at fault. Glen's pass was agressive (passing, by nature, is agressive, to a greater or lesser extent, depending on tthe specifics.,) but not surprisingly so.

I don't see anything to make me think Glen was out of control, up to and just past the apex.

I don't see anything that makes me think anything you did was agressive, up to the point you grabbed second. I do not thank that contributed greatly to the incident. It changed the nature of the impact, but did not cause the impact.

In the end, I think, this was a racing incident. Passing and defending both require the cars to be in close proximity and sometines shit happens. Was Glen wrong to be hard on the gas coming out of the corner? Certainly not, even though he did kick the end loose. How many times have se seen pther drivers, prodrivers included, get loose trying to power out of a corner when the line is compromised like that?

As I have said elsewhere, I'm proud of the fact that you and Glen handled this the way you did, regardless of the cause.

[evarner]

And let me say further ...

Glenn's driving is deemed overly aggressive because he dove in underneath Rob.

But Eric diving underneath me, tires ablaze and two wheels in the dirt at No Problem was a bold move.

Is the only difference that Eric was able to save his tank slapper?

Or was it because I realized he was faster than me and I said "Oh well, I'll get him next time?"

What if I had grabbed second gear and stabbed the gas and hit Eric?

Would Eric still have been the aggressor or would it have been me?

Perception is a funny thing, isn't it. It's not based on fact or reality ... just opinion.

Don't forget to mention that I was following you for many laps with the intent to setup a pass at that particular corner. :D You made the #9 really wide and a tough cookie to crack.

Yep, I did lock up the passenger side front and also used the outside of the curbing to make the corner. I don't remember being off track though. :D

I say this only to see 'inside' the mind of someone that is cautious, calculating and confident in their ability, and also realizing that if I stayed were I was, the other competitors could catch up (and did). This might have lead to a 'now or never scenario'.

I'm also glad we had the opportunity to race as close as we did without incident and this goes towards having mucho respect for ya out on-track.

I think I was the first one to come up to you at Cresson when you won your first race to congratulate ya.

Not about the fiddy cent medal, but way beyond that.

I haz the video of the infamous No Problem pass if others want to check it out. :D

[mitchntx]

And let me say further ...

Glenn's driving is deemed overly aggressive because he dove in underneath Rob.

But Eric diving underneath me, tires ablaze and two wheels in the dirt at No Problem was a bold move.

Is the only difference that Eric was able to save his tank slapper?

Or was it because I realized he was faster than me and I said "Oh well, I'll get him next time?"

What if I had grabbed second gear and stabbed the gas and hit Eric?

Would Eric still have been the aggressor or would it have been me?

Perception is a funny thing, isn't it. It's not based on fact or reality ... just opinion.

Don't forget to mention that I was following you for many laps with the intent to setup a pass at that particular corner. :D You made the #9 really wide and a tough cookie to crack.

Yep, I did lock up the passenger side front and also used the outside of the curbing to make the corner. I don't remember being off track though. :D

I say this only to see 'inside' the mind of someone that is cautious, calculating and confident in their ability, and also realizing that if I stayed were I was, the other competitors could catch up (and did). This might have lead to a 'now or never scenario'.

I'm also glad we had the opportunity to race as close as we did without incident and this goes towards having mucho respect for ya out on-track.

I think I was the first one to come up to you at Cresson when you won your first race to congratulate ya.

Not about he fiddy cent medal, but way beyond that.

I haz the video of the infamous No Problem pass if others want to check it out. :D

You very well could have stayed on track ... truth be told ... I had my eyes closed ... 8)

Eric, I used that as another example of a talented driver doing what it took to pass a competitor.

It's also an object lesson on how one's perception of another driver can be skewed by influence, not necessarily confined to the track.

Yes, you did congratulate me first after MSR and I very much appreciated your doing so. Likewise, after NPR, I think I sought you out and we both laughed about it, as I recall.

That's the way it should be.

Good times.

[Todd Covini]

"Con-trol"

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_hAxC0cDJnKo/SnJAXV04aZI/AAAAAAAAC8o/l7PjE1E1-hs/s400/Control.jpg

[David Love AI27]

notice I didn't mention spins in there... spinning (on your own) is over-driving in my book.

Leave me out of it!!!

[cobra132]

I was immediately behind Glenn and Rob enjoying their race and planning a pass on the front straight, so I'll through in my 2cents. They had a good race going and Glenn was driving 105% trying to catch Rob. Glenn always drives 105% when he and his car are working well. Rob was not making any mistakes, as usual, and they were having a good race.
Coming into 4 Rob was on the speed line and Glenn got him on the inside. On trackout Glenn got lose in the center of the track, seemed to be correcting, Rob went wide, I went inside and expected to see a hell of a race to turn 3. Glenns front tires caught and the rest is history. Both drivers gave plenty of room. I think some track conditions may have played a role in this unfortunate incident. At several areas on the track the fast line was glazed a bit and not at 100% traction. Turn 4 was one of these areas and I found more grip off line. This may partially explain why Glenns front tires caught so violently.
Anyway, I think we should put this behind us and concentrate on getting these cars back together. Remember the retrospectoscope is a perfect instrument. FMR

[Rob Liebbe]

the retrospectoscope is a perfect instrument. FMR

Fancy words there doc!!! For us mere mortals that translates into "Hindsight is 20/20". :)

[AllZWay]

Well said Frank....

[GlennCMC70]

Take Glen's incident with Rob.


Yes, lets do ...

Remember me saying over and over and over not to hang your hat on video evidence? Video is two demensional and only one sense can be counted on. Audio tracks are too easily altered or sometimes just don't exist.

At first, second or even tenth glance, it appears Glenn goes screaming past Rob "out of control".

But go back and look again ...

What's that? Rob goes from 4th to 3rd WAY before the right side rumble strips begin ... WAY early? and then? Glenn goes "screaming" past.

So, IMHO and from my Monday Morning QB perspective, what appears to be Glenn screaming past Rob "out of control" is actually, Rob, slowing down early and squeezing Glenn to the inside giving the two demensional viewer the appearance of Glenn laying blaze to the asphalt.

Why would Rob want to do this?

Rob's move would do two things ...

- makes Glenn lose momentum negotiating the turn
- sets Glenn up for a textbook cross-over move.

This puts Rob in perfect position to regain the position at T3. Rob's a smart racer. This is the most credible scenario, IMHO.

Glenn, because of internet induced paranonia, pinches his car off in an over zealous effort to leave Rob plenty of room on driver's right, spins ....

And the rest is history.

This is not an effort to defend or point blame at any one. What's done is done. But those of you with snapping turtle like grudges need to get over it and move on or this is going to divide the group permenantly.

Your witness ...

One thing I do not want is to divide the group.

I only posted what I was told by several people that were at the race that would not post. All said Glenn was out of control from turn in and corner workers were calling in Glenn's agressive driving plus he was going to be black flagged for hitting a cone. Since I was not there I should have kept my mouth (or keyboard) shut. I let Glenn's history guide me. I don't know if Mitch is correct or the people that called and told me Glenn was out of control. I can tell you that IMHO the only way to know for sure would have been to see it in person. Since I did not......I'm out.
If I was wrong I'm sorry Glenn!
JJ

My driving was not much different that weekend compaired to any other this year. I know for a fact I was not "out of control" untill I was side by side w/ Rob.
Theblack flag issue was removed as a factor by order of Clifton and Mike P. The reasons are:
1) Others hitthe cones and were not black flagged. How was I to know for sure I would be? In fact, those in charge deliberated on it before deciding it was goning to happen.
2) I wanted to go in and serve my stop and go prior to being shown the flag. But how was I to know that the required personel was in place to recieve me for that penalty. By waiting to get the flag, it would have told me two things - I am getting called in and everyone will see that and, the proper personel are prepaired to serve me my penalty (it wouldbe witnessed). I was one corner from having it displayed to me (T3).

I also called you, but you VM'ed me.

[GlennCMC70]

Its not you posting your opinion, Jerry, its this ...



what I was told by several people that were at the race that would not post.


All this whispering and rumor mongering is what will drive the wedge.

Its not a thread on the internet. Thats a convenient excuse and does nothing to address the real issues.

If any one has a problem with me, then call me and lets work it out. Don't call 3 or 4 others, get them all stirred up and then form a lynch mob.

That solves nothing.

Yep, listening to the folks who do not have the sack to call me and talk about me to me has no point other than to get you to do it for them.

I've recieved few comments of support - tells me alot about the positions folks have taken over this. Bryan has been very honest w/ me. Some of it I didnt like, but I understood his opinion. He was good about giving me his opinion, and not everyone elses.

[GlennCMC70]

Thanks for your account, Rob. That matches up with my assumptions based on the in-car video you posted. I'd have done pretty much everything you did, up to the point you downshifted to second. I dunno if I'd have had the forethought or balls to try to take advantage of Glen's loss of traction.

In the end, I don't see any compelling evidence, based on what's been available to us, that leads me to believe either one of you were 100% at fault. Glen's pass was agressive (passing, by nature, is agressive, to a greater or lesser extent, depending on tthe specifics.,) but not surprisingly so.

I don't see anything to make me think Glen was out of control, up to and just past the apex.

I don't see anything that makes me think anything you did was agressive, up to the point you grabbed second. I do not thank that contributed greatly to the incident. It changed the nature of the impact, but did not cause the impact.

In the end, I think, this was a racing incident. Passing and defending both require the cars to be in close proximity and sometines shit happens. Was Glen wrong to be hard on the gas coming out of the corner? Certainly not, even though he did kick the end loose. How many times have se seen pther drivers, prodrivers included, get loose trying to power out of a corner when the line is compromised like that?

As I have said elsewhere, I'm proud of the fact that you and Glen handled this the way you did, regardless of the cause.

Robert - Its Glenn. I know I'm not one who should point out spelling mistakes, but I'm pretty sure about this one.

I'll correct your one mistake of what happened. I never got to the gas. Watch closely and you will see the tail lights go out as I transition to the gas, but I never got there. As soon as I lifted off the brake, the car just snapped. I cannot ever recall this happening to me before. I'm still somewhat unsure about how to handle the same senario in the future.

[GlennCMC70]

I was immediately behind Glenn and Rob enjoying their race and planning a pass on the front straight, so I'll through in my 2cents. They had a good race going and Glenn was driving 105% trying to catch Rob. Glenn always drives 105% when he and his car are working well. Rob was not making any mistakes, as usual, and they were having a good race.
Coming into 4 Rob was on the speed line and Glenn got him on the inside. On trackout Glenn got lose in the center of the track, seemed to be correcting, Rob went wide, I went inside and expected to see a hell of a race to turn 3. Glenns front tires caught and the rest is history. Both drivers gave plenty of room. I think some track conditions may have played a role in this unfortunate incident. At several areas on the track the fast line was glazed a bit and not at 100% traction. Turn 4 was one of these areas and I found more grip off line. This may partially explain why Glenns front tires caught so violently.
Anyway, I think we should put this behind us and concentrate on getting these cars back together. Remember the retrospectoscope is a perfect instrument. FMR

Thanks Frank. Your right about 105%. I have only one mode - <waves hand in circular motion over head> "flat out"! :wink:

[Fbody383]

As soon as I lifted off the brake, the car just snapped. I cannot ever recall this happening to me before. I'm still somewhat unsure about how to handle the same senario in the future.That was the first thing that jumped out at me ~ that car made a crazy move. Only thing off top of my head is less opposite lock, but that will be hard to learn. Makes a 4th gen driver wonder if it could happen to them too.


I know for a fact I was not "out of control" untill I was side by side w/ Rob. Been there, done that. Some of the rest of the group wasn't convinced either.

I just don't know how to enforce the line that separates "I've got IT" from "IT'S got me."

This is always easier when we're racing... when is ECR?

[ShadowBolt]

My driving was not much different that weekend compaired to any other this year. I know for a fact I was not "out of control" untill I was side by side w/ Rob.
Theblack flag issue was removed as a factor by order of Clifton and Mike P. The reasons are:
1) Others hitthe cones and were not black flagged. How was I to know for sure I would be? In fact, those in charge deliberated on it before deciding it was goning to happen.
2) I wanted to go in and serve my stop and go prior to being shown the flag. But how was I to know that the required personel was in place to recieve me for that penalty. By waiting to get the flag, it would have told me two things - I am getting called in and everyone will see that and, the proper personel are prepaired to serve me my penalty (it wouldbe witnessed). I was one corner from having it displayed to me (T3).

I also called you, but you VM'ed me.

Glenn,

I have not received any calls from you. I will call you on my way home from work. After 5:00 PM on weekdays after I get home the cell goes off.

JJ

[GlennCMC70]

My driving was not much different that weekend compaired to any other this year. I know for a fact I was not "out of control" untill I was side by side w/ Rob.
Theblack flag issue was removed as a factor by order of Clifton and Mike P. The reasons are:
1) Others hitthe cones and were not black flagged. How was I to know for sure I would be? In fact, those in charge deliberated on it before deciding it was goning to happen.
2) I wanted to go in and serve my stop and go prior to being shown the flag. But how was I to know that the required personel was in place to recieve me for that penalty. By waiting to get the flag, it would have told me two things - I am getting called in and everyone will see that and, the proper personel are prepaired to serve me my penalty (it wouldbe witnessed). I was one corner from having it displayed to me (T3).

I also called you, but you VM'ed me.

Glenn,

I have not received any calls from you. I will call you on my way home from work. After 5:00 PM on weekdays after I get home the cell goes off.

JJ

no reason to call.

[gt40]

Robert - Its Glenn. I know I'm not one who should point out spelling mistakes, but I'm pretty sure about this one.Sorry about that. I'm not very observant sometimes and that one got past me.

(I still can't spell Rob's last name, either.)


I'll correct your one mistake of what happened. I never got to the gas. Watch closely and you will see the tail lights go out as I transition to the gas, but I never got there. As soon as I lifted off the brake, the car just snapped.that must be an assumption on my part, then. I thought I heard you get on the gas, but after reviewing Rob's video, I can't hear what I thought I heard. My bad. I'll try to be more critical in the future.



I cannot ever recall this happening to me before. I'm still somewhat unsure about how to handle the same senario in the future.That's the thing, ain't it? Sometimes shit happens. Sometimes a tire blows, or you hit oil that was just dropped. If you're racing someone close, there's not much you can do except your best and hope it comes out OK.

[GlennCMC70]

Well thats the last real thing I have to say about it.

We were racing very hard and having a great time doing it. I'll fix/replace my car and come back.

[jeffburch]

<dons red bandana and (attempts) really gay voice>

Hide yo women an chir-ren an racecar-ruhs 'cause Gle-enn is wreckin ever-one up in hear-uh.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJGBP96pB_c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtube_gdata&v=hMtZfW2z9dw

jb

[cobra132]

Now that's a real social engineering success story right there. Where do you come up with this stuff. FMR

[Todd Covini]

ROFLOL....yo'wassup Antoine!!!
(He's got a little Burch in 'em dontchaknow...yup...I saw the head bob & weave with finger pointin' in sync.)

LOL

[jeffburch]

ROFLOL....yo'wassup Antoine!!!
(He's got a little Burch in 'em dontchaknow...yup...I saw the head bob & weave with finger pointin' in sync.)

LOL

Run and tell that. Homeboy.