Toyo Price Increase March 1

[chicane23]

I was told that Toyo will have a 7% increase coming in March.

Just wanted to let all the great racers of AICMCTexas know as soon as possible.

I hope you all have a great season and be safe everyone.

[ShadowBolt]

I was told that Toyo will have a 7% increase coming in March.

Just wanted to let all the great racers of AICMCTexas know as soon as possible.

I hope you all have a great season and be safe everyone.


For you that don't know, John's Chicane23 is a great place to get anything you need for racing. He has taken care of me every time.

JJ

[chicane23]

I do have some bad news...All the 275/40-17s are gone now.

They are now on National Back Order, due in Mid March.

You guys are quick. ;-)

There are (10) 255/50-16s left.

If I can help, please let me know.

[Fbody383]

I do have some bad news...All the 275/40-17s are gone now. Good thing CMC1 lives through this year... so much for a spec tire class. :cry:

[BryanL]

Glad I got the last 2 of the 275's from John last week!

[marshall_mosty]

I do have some bad news...All the 275/40-17s are gone now.

They are now on National Back Order, due in Mid March.

You guys are quick. ;-)

There are (10) 255/50-16s left.

If I can help, please let me know.

Sounds fishy from Toyo's end... dry up the supply quickly so you can slam out "new" tires with a price increase... gotta love it. :twisted:

[Waco Racer]

I was thinking the same thing.

[BryanL]

Why the surprise? The cost of many raw materials are up as its simple supply/demand. You know Helicopter Ben wants inflation and the FED's mantra is 2% inflation.
It still shocks me that they that much in Toyo Bucks for our racing. Especially when a class may only have 5 entrants.

[marshall_mosty]

If they are inflating the price of toyo's by 7%, the need to up the contingency by 7%.

$160 - 1st
$107 - 2nd
$80 - 3rd
$53 - 4th
$27 - 5th

Just saying...

[mitchntx]

Why the surprise? The cost of many raw materials are up as its simple supply/demand. You know Helicopter Ben wants inflation and the FED's mantra is 2% inflation.
It still shocks me that they that much in Toyo Bucks for our racing. Especially when a class may only have 5 entrants.

OK, it appears Covini stole Bryan's log-on information.

Not cool.

[Rob Liebbe]

You can still run the 16" tire in CMC2. It's a maximum tire size rule, you can run any smaller RA1.

[BlueFirePony]

First the 18's, now the 17's.
This is somehow in compliance with the contract with NASA?

Toyo is giving me all the reason's I need to not run AI/CMC next year. That is not an idle comment - in fact, factor in now $150 a set over Hoosiers and it might not take that long.

[BlueFirePony]

You can still run the 16" tire in CMC2. It's a maximum tire size rule, you can run any smaller RA1.
Yeah, 18 is a max size in AI and I was told I could just run 17s...oh, wait...not anymore!

[BlueFirePony]

Why the surprise? The cost of many raw materials are up as its simple supply/demand. You know Helicopter Ben wants inflation and the FED's mantra is 2% inflation.
It still shocks me that they that much in Toyo Bucks for our racing. Especially when a class may only have 5 entrants.
An increase in raw materials does not necessitate an increase in price especially in a competitive market and especially for a product that already has been planned for deprecation.
That is of course unless demand outstrips supply as you indicate but when the supply is hampered by the manufacturer's actions (poor product launch, underplanned production, quality issues, supply chain mismanagement...take your pick) then a price increase is not only unacceptable, doing so is manipulative.

[Casey_SS]

First the 18's, now the 17's.
This is somehow in compliance with the contract with NASA?

Toyo is giving me all the reason's I need to not run AI/CMC next year. That is not an idle comment - in fact, factor in now $150 a set over Hoosiers and it might not take that long.

Big part of the reason I'm running AIX this year. AI/CMC are definitely the PEOPLE I want to race and hang out with but I don't have the patience for the annual Toyo drama. That and I'm still a little light on driver talent to be competitive. :oops:

The plus side is I can get a set of 17" NT01s for $799 w/ free shipping. My last set lasted 7 weekends (2 were in the rain). Not saying this is the right answer for you but would rather see you do that than leave the group...I hear you make good BBQ :D

[BlueFirePony]

Hey Casey... I completely understand your position and in fact I started to pull the AIX escape hatch last year and was literally hours from doing it again this year...that and the 'just run a smaller' tire tells me there is a serious issue with the compatability of the series intent and operation and I put it on Toyo and anyone supporting that relationship in light of the last two years...I am not taking my toy home but I am not interested in giving an unfit organization like Toyo my money nor am I wanting to run to AIX and risk all sorts of 'out of class' issues where my, Dave's and Cliftons competitive natures put us at odds with where we find ourselves playing. I am soooooo even tempered about stuff that the fact this Toyo crap is pissing me off tells ME something is f'd up big time. 'nuff said. I am cool on tires for Cresson...we'll see what happens after.

[GlennCMC70]

First the 18's, now the 17's.
This is somehow in compliance with the contract with NASA?

Toyo is giving me all the reason's I need to not run AI/CMC next year. That is not an idle comment - in fact, factor in now $150 a set over Hoosiers and it might not take that long.

Yep, but they will last you half as long.

[Jeremy Gunter]

Yep, but they will last you half as long.

and after the possible contingency's available, cost you half as much...

[edrock96GT]

It is kinda hard to beat the Hoosier contingency.

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii142/edrock76/Tires.png

[MikeP99Z]

Why do I have a feeling that there is a warehouse in the US that is full of R888s that need to be sold...

[Jeremy Gunter]

Why do I have a feeling that there is a warehouse in the US that is full of R888s that need to be sold...
because we can't use them...

[MikeP99Z]

AI -

http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=39480

[David Love AI27]

AI -

http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=39480

Three years in a row Toyo cannot provide a spec tire :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: woa... I'm dizzy

[rpoz27]

There was once a wise man that said two years ago putting CMC2 on AI size 17's was a bad idea and would result in shortages..... Where is that man now?! LOL!

[Jeremy Gunter]

Where is that man now?!

She has a gun and thinks the last thing she needs to worry about are the open doors she fails to shut...

If he was up your....... you'd know it!


We apologize for any inconvenience that this has caused to the racers and thank you for your patience and understanding.

Patience? understanding? "the 888 was a failure and we know it, so stick another set of shitty tires up your rear end and deal with it..." I think it's time we take a look at this... this is becoming ridiculous...

Do we get to run 888s? and if we do can we use them as rains for a few seasons?

[AllZWay]

Do we get to run 888s? and if we do can we use them as rains for a few seasons?

I would like to know the OFFICIAL ruling on this. Can 888's be ran at all this season in CMC? Rain or Shine?

[rleng1]

Supply Chain 101 - price increases will occur and can be accepted as demand for the product increase, or manufacturing cost increase. This is appropriate as long as performance and customer satisafaction are increasing or are sustained.
if suppliers raise pricing due to the model that they can, then customers usually have 2 options. 1- reduce the amount of business you are doing with that supplier, or 2- bring new entrants into the market.
what do racers love the most? COMPETITION!!

[ShadowBolt]

Do we get to run 888s? and if we do can we use them as rains for a few seasons?

I would like to know the OFFICIAL ruling on this. Can 888's be ran at all this season in CMC? Rain or Shine?

I have a set and used them at MSRH on Sunday. Mine are getting old and unless there is standing water I will not run them again. I had more grip with new shaved 3/32" RA 1's. If I had it to do over I would not have run them. There was very little standing water you drove through during the races..........unless you did like James and I and went cross country.


JJ

[Adam Ginsberg]

It is kinda hard to beat the Hoosier contingency.

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii142/edrock76/Tires.png

Are you really sure the Hoosier contingency is the bees knees??

Here's some quick math:

Toyo Tire contingency:
Starters: 5 or more

1st= $150
2nd= $100
3rd= $75
4th= $50
5th= $25

Award- $400 Per Race

Regional Championship Bonus
1st= $1000
2nd= $500
3rd= $250

ROI (as if anything in racing can be looked at in terms of ROI, but go with it just for shits and giggles):
a) Investment - 275/40/17= $219 x 4 = $876
b) Use - 2 weekends (4 races, possibly longer)
c) Application - 5 racers x $876= $4380
d) ROI - $4380 / 4 race use cost = $1095 per race / $1600 awards = $505 RETURN to AI Racers

Summary:
In this case 1st place finisher spends $876 and gets $600 in rewards (based on the above mentioned 2 weekend/4 race usage) for a total racer cost of $276
In this case 3rd place finisher sends $876 and gets $300 in rewards (based on the above mentioned 2 weekend/4 race usage) for a total racer cost of $576
In this case 5th place finisher spends $876 and gets $100 in rewards (based on the above mentioned 2 weekend/4 race usage) for a total racer cost of $776

On a larger scale, each racer will likely purchase approximately 12 tires for an entire season (some racers may buy more, some may buy less). Using the 12 tire formula, 10 racers x 12 tires= 120 x $219 = $26,280 investment. Total awards would be $400 x 16 races = $6400 + $1750 in Regional Championship money for a total award package of $8,150. The percentage of return is 31%

Hoosier Tire contingency:
Starters: 5-6 (similar in the Toyo example)

1st= 1 Free Tire ($280 value)
2nd= 1 Free Tire ($280 value)

Award- $560 Per Race

ROI (yeah, yeah.....):
a) Investment - 275/40/17= $280 x 4 = $1120 (28% more expensive)
b) Use - 1 weekend (2 races)
c) Application - 5 racers x $1120 = $5600
d) ROI - $5600 / 2 race use cost = $2800 per race / $1120 awards = $1680 COST to AI racers

Summary:
In this case, 1st place finisher spends $1120 and gets $560 in rewards (based on the above mentioned 1 weekend/2 race usage) for a total racer cost of $560
In this case, 3rd place finisher spends $1120 and gets $0 in rewards (based on the above mentioned 1 weekend/2 race usage) for a total racer cost of $1120
In this case, 5th place finisher spends $1120 and gets $0 in rewards (based on the above mentioned 1 weekend/2 race usage) for a total racer cost of $1120

On a larger scale, each racer will purchase 32 tires for an entire season. 10 racers x 32 tires= 320 x $280 = $89,600 investment. Total awards would be $560 x 16 races = $8960. The percentage of return is 10%.

Final note - The Toyo Contingency will save a 1st place finisher $284 per set purchased. 3rd place Hoosier finishers and below will spend $6332 ($8960-$2628) more money on tires and receive no benefit in return.

This does not include the Nationals, only Regional races.

Thoughts??

[mitchntx]

Thoughts??

I have a cat.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Coz_cpLaGSw/SvqmcWWJm3I/AAAAAAAAA0M/Q1tBnbDcmgs/s320/confused+cat.jpg

[Adam Ginsberg]

I have a cat.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Coz_cpLaGSw/SvqmcWWJm3I/AAAAAAAAA0M/Q1tBnbDcmgs/s320/confused+cat.jpg

You've got to come up with something new, Mitch.

;)

[michaelmosty]

Dang Adam, if you don't spin so much you'll get more than 2 weekends out of a set of tires. :P

[Jeremy Gunter]

Thoughts??

Hoosier is a better tire?
Hoosier has them in stock?
Hoosier isn't blowing smoke up my ass about their tires?

I'm not saying Hoosier is the answer, I'm saying Toyo isn't!

[MikeP99Z]

Let's re-run the math using the reality of an AI car, and then look at the potential for CMC2 which has over 7 starters.

The regional championship was nil for AI because we didn't have 5 starters for more than 80% of the races.

Also, my AI car burns a set of tires per weekend (starting at 4/32). Does the $219 include shaving?


I'll make my edits to your example in red

Additional calcs in green for making tires last 2 weekends

Toyo Tire contingency:
Starters: 5 or more

1st= $150
2nd= $100
3rd= $75
4th= $50
5th= $25

Award- $400 Per Race

Regional Championship Bonus
1st= $1000
2nd= $500
3rd= $250

ROI (as if anything in racing can be looked at in terms of ROI, but go with it just for shits and giggles):
a) Investment - 275/40/17= $219 x 4 = $876
b) Use - 1 weekend (2 races, possibly longer)
c) Application - 5 racers x $876= $4380
d) ROI - $4380 / 2 race use cost = $2190 per race / $800 awards = $1,390 COST to AI Racers

Summary:
In this case 1st place finisher spends $876 and gets $300 in rewards (based on the above mentioned 1 weekend/2 race usage) for a total racer cost of $576
In this case 3rd place finisher spends $876 and gets $150 in rewards (based on the above mentioned 1 weekend/4 race usage) for a total racer cost of $726
In this case 5th place finisher spends $876 and gets $50 in rewards (based on the above mentioned 1 weekend/2 race usage) for a total racer cost of $826

On a larger scale, each racer will likely purchase approximately 24 tires for an entire season (6 race weekends in TX some racers may buy more, some may buy less). Using the 24 tire formula, 10 racers x 24 tires= 240 x $219 = $52,560 investment. Total awards would be $400 x 12 races = $4800 + $1750 in Regional Championship money for a total award package of $6550. The percentage of return is 12.5%

e) Use = 4 races ROI - $4380/4 = $1095/$1600 awards = $505 RETURN to racers

Using the 12 tire formula, 10 racers x 12 tires= 120 x $219 = $26,280 investment. Total awards would be $400 x 12 races = $4800 + $1750 in Regional Championship money for a total award package of $6550. The percentage of return is 25%

Hoosier Tire contingency:
Starters: 5-6 (similar in the Toyo example)

1st= 1 Free Tire ($280 value)
2nd= 1 Free Tire ($280 value)

Award- $560 Per Race

ROI (yeah, yeah.....):
a) Investment - 275/40/17= $280 x 4 = $1120 (28% more expensive)
b) Use - 1 weekend (2 races)
c) Application - 5 racers x $1120 = $5600
d) ROI - $5600 / 2 race use cost = $2800 per race / $1120 awards = $1680 COST to AI racers

Summary:
In this case, 1st place (and 2nd place) finisher spends $1120 and gets $560 in rewards (based on the above mentioned 1 weekend/2 race usage) for a total racer cost of $560
In this case, 3rd place finisher spends $1120 and gets $0 in rewards (based on the above mentioned 1 weekend/2 race usage) for a total racer cost of $1120
In this case, 5th place finisher spends $1120 and gets $0 in rewards (based on the above mentioned 1 weekend/2 race usage) for a total racer cost of $1120

On a larger scale, each racer will purchase 24 tires for an entire season. 10 racers x 24 tires= 240 x $280 = $67,200 investment. Total awards would be $560 x 12 races = $6720. The percentage of return is 10%.

e) Use = 4 races ROI - $5600 / 4 race use cost = $1400 per race / $2240 awards = $1120 RETURN to racers

Using the 12 tire formula, 10 racers x 12 tires= 120 x $280 = $33,600 investment. Total awards would be $560 x 12 races = $6720. The percentage of return is 20%.

CMC2 - 7 starters or more

Toyo

Award- $400 Per Race

c.) 7x$876 = $6132
d.) 6132/2 races = 3065/800 = $2265 cost to CMC2 racers

1st place - 6x876 = 5256-1800-1000= $2456 per season on tires
2nd place - 6x876 = 5256-1200-500 = $3556
3rd place - 6x876 = 5256-900-250 = $4106
4th place - 6x876 = 5256-600 = $4656
5th place - 6x876 = 5256-300 = $4956

Total spent (places 1-5) = $21,480
Total spent by podium finishers = $10,118

e) Use = 4 races, ROI - 6132/4 races = 1533/1600 = $67 RETURN to CMC2 racers


1st place - 3x876 = 2628-1800-1000= $172 RETURN per season on tires
2nd place - 3x876 = 2628-1200-500 = $926 cost per season
3rd place - 3x876 = 2628-900-250 = $1478
4th place - 3x876 = 2628-600 = $2028
5th place - 3x876 = 2628-300 = $2328

Total spent (places 1-5) = $6588
Total spent by podium finishers = $2232


Hoosier

Award- $1120 Per Race

c.) 7x$1120 = $7840
d.) 7840/2 races = 3920/1120 = $2800 cost to CMC2 racers

1st place - 6x1120 = 6720-6720 = $0 per season on tires
2nd place - 6x1120 = 6720-3360 = $3360
3rd place - 6x1120 = 6720-3360 = $3360
4th place - 6x1120 = 6720-0 = $6720
5th place - 6x1120 = 6720-0 = $6720

Total spent (places 1-5) = $20,160
Total spent by podium finishers = $6720

Something about grocery stores and Mary Poppins come to mind. It pays to be on the podium, with the Hoosiers you would have to work for it guys.


e.) 7840/4 races = 1960/2240 = $280 RETURN to CMC2 racers

1st place - 3x1120 = 3360-6720 = $3360 RETURN per season on tires
2nd place - 3x1120 = 3360-3360 = $0 cost
3rd place - 3x1120 = 3360-3360 = $0 cost
4th place - 3x1120 = 6720-0 = $6720
5th place - 3x1120 = 6720-0 = $6720

Total spent (places 1-5) = $10,080
Total spent by podium finishers = $3360 RETURN


AI/CMC2 - 3 starters

Toyo

Award- $90 Per Race

c.) 3x$876 = $2628
d.) 2628/2 races = 1314/180 = $1134 cost to AI/CMC2 racers

1st place - 6x876 = 5256-480 = $4776 per season on tires
2nd place - 6x876 = 5256-360 = $4896
3rd place - 6x876 = 5256-240 = $5016

Total spent (places 1-3) = $14,688
Total spent by podium finishers = $14,688

e.) Use = 4 races ROI 2628/4 races = 657/360 = $297 cost to AI/CMC2 racers

1st place - 3x876 = 2628-480 = $2148 per season on tires
2nd place - 3x876 = 2628-360 = $2268
3rd place - 3x876 = 2628-240 = $2388

Total spent (places 1-3) = $6,804
Total spent by podium finishers = $6,804

Hoosier

Award- $280 Per Race

c.) 3x$1120 = $3360
d.) 3360/2 races = 1680/560 = $1120 cost to AI/CMC2 racers

1st place - 6x1120 = 6720-3360 = $3360 per season on tires
2nd place - 6x1120 = 6720-0 = $6720
3rd place - 6x1120 = 6720-0 = $6720


Total spent (places 1-3) = $16,800
Total spent by podium finishers = $16,800


e.) Use = 4 races, ROI - 3360/4 races = 840/1120 = $280 RETURN to AI/CMC2 racers

1st place - 3x1120 = 3360-3360 = $0 per season on tires
2nd place - 3x1120 = 3360-0 = $3360
3rd place - 3x1120 = 3360-0 = $3360


Total spent (places 1-3) = $6,720
Total spent by podium finishers = $6,720

[AllZWay]

Can I get the clif notes version? Which has a better plan? :lol:

[edrock96GT]

I wasn't looking at a larger scale, but more at the scenario for the Texas region:

I race in AI, I pretty consistently finish 4th (behind Marshal, Frank, and either Dave Neary or Bryan/Dave Garland). I get $50 bucks per toyo race. I'm heading into my 3rd season on one set of toyos and I'm looking at replacing ONE soon (maybe my tire longevity will work for Hoosier's also, although not last nearly as long...maybe 3-4 weekends?) so I didn't factor such rapid tire wear.

One weekend=$100 "bucks"

We normally have 2 drivers in AIX (2 cars=no tires). I could switch to AIX, raise the car count to 3, and have a better chance at some first place tire awards.

One weekend=2 new tires.

[MikeP99Z]

Can I get the clif notes version? Which has a better plan? :lol:

Make your tires last as long as they can.

[Alien]

Can I get the clif notes version? Which has a better plan? :lol:

If a train leaves Boston for New York at 7am and travels at 60mph... :D

[michaelmosty]

New question:
Who feels their RA1's (date coded the end of 09 or all of 2010) didn't last as long as their tires from the pre-888 days?

[ShadowBolt]

New question:
Who feels their RA1's (date coded the end of 09 or all of 2010) didn't last as long as their tires from the pre-888 days?

I do. Until the 888 BS I would buy two sets a year for six weekends and have plenty of tire. I don't think we can make a full season (with a few 1/2 day CBP's) on two sets now. I also used to order at 3/32 now I get them 4/32. Maybe that is hurting the life of the tire but I can't see how.


JJ

[David Love AI27]

New question:
Who feels their RA1's (date coded the end of 09 or all of 2010) didn't last as long as their tires from the pre-888 days?

Set I bought 2009 Nats only lasted Nationals

[mitchntx]

For consideration ...

As lap times decrease, tire wear goes up exponentially.

I certainly wouldn't expect consumables to last the same running a 25 at MSR-C as they did when the my FTD was (and still is) a 29.

My $.02

[AllZWay]

I was kind of blaming the excess tire wear on moving to 17's.

I used to easily get 2 to 2-1/2 weekends out of a set, but since I moved to 17's a set shaved to 4/32nds now last 1 to 1-1/2 weekends shaved to the same specs.

[ShadowBolt]

For consideration ...

As lap times decrease, tire wear goes up exponentially.

I certainly wouldn't expect consumables to last the same running a 25 at MSR-C as they did when the my FTD was (and still is) a 29.

My $.02


Keyword....exponentially


JJ

[HoustonNW]

I also think that my new set is wearing a lot faster than the two older sets that I have.

Being the suspicious type, I find it interesting that the increased wear due to lower lap times comes right after the release of the "new" RA1.

Edit to add: The Spec Miata guys are seeing the same thing:

http://nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=39911

[ShadowBolt]

I also think that my new set is wearing a lot faster than the two older sets that I have.

Being the suspicious type, I find it interesting that the increased wear due to lower lap times comes right after the release of the "new" RA1.

Edit to add: The Spec Miata guys are seeing the same thing:

http://nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=39911


Is the softer tire (if it really is) part of the reason for the faster lap times? For weekend racers a tire that would last three events would be great. The tire does not have to be fast if we are all on the same one. $1000.00 per 1.5 events just for tires could run some guys off. Until last year I only bought two sets a year. Of course I was getting five events out of a set of front brake pads and now just two.

JJ

[Adam Ginsberg]

The regional championship was nil for AI because we didn't have 5 starters for more than 80% of the races.

If there aren't enough AI racers at the events, tire choice becomes irrelevant as no contingency is viable.

My comparison specifically listed 5-6 starters. Not 1-3 starters.

[marshall_mosty]

Does any of this REALLY matter?? I don't think NASA is going to sever ties with Toyo for AI anytime soon... Get as much life as you can with camber setting, tire pressure, flipping, praying, whatever...

I ran on take-off scrubs for the last 5 years, so I have NO clue how many weekends I will get on a set of RA1's. With MSR-H being wet, it was kinda hard to measure the wear...

After MSR-C we will see where I am. I'm hoping to get MSR-C and TWS on a set and go into Hallett with a fresh set and have them last until the end of the year... 2 sets over 5 or 6 weekends.

[GlennCMC70]

MSR-C is a bad place to judge tire wear. It is super smooth and easy on tires. The first year I raced CMC, we ran there 3 times (2005), out of 5 weekends, and I got a total of 7 weekends out of a set.