Tires

[Al Fernandez]

I'm sure you've read about or heard about tire shortages due to the recent events in Japan. NASA is working on the issue with the intent of having a solution for each class. More news will follow.

In the mean time, dont get rid of stuff that would enable you to run 16s on your CMC2 car. 16" 255 RA1s are available in good numbers. It may not be your first option, but you'll hate yourself if you scrapped that set of wheels...

[MikeP99Z]

I have a few sets of 16x8 F-body wheels for sale. 8)

Might have some 17" toyos also, ya never know.

[Alien]

Wanted to Buy: $2000+ Used 4th gen big brake kit for super cheap, I'll give you $200 for it.
*Edit* or will trade you a stock LS1 kit from a 2002 T/A.

[kbrewmr2]

Official Announcement Made:
http://www.nasaproracing.com/2011/04/nasa-announces-response-to-toy.html

[Al Fernandez]

Well there it is, open tire for AI. Bummer of a date selection though. Do all of you guys running AI have enough RA1s to last through TWS?

The thinking at this point is that with AI drivers nationwide switching over to alternate and faster choices there should be some used tires the CMC2 folks can use. We will continue to monitor availability. Hopefully CMC2 doesnt have to resort to alternate choices.

[GlennCMC70]

Official Announcement Made:
http://www.nasaproracing.com/2011/04/nasa-announces-response-to-toy.html

Wonder if we will see Matt back w/ Hoosiers.

[marshall_mosty]

Hallett will be interesting...

[RichardP]

Hallett will be EXPENSIVE...


Corrected that for you...


Richard P.

[cobra132]

What about toyo bucks??

[AllZWay]

Hopefully CMC2 doesnt have to resort to alternate choices.

I definitely hope not either. If faster choices are then given as options... everyone will be switching to faster tires and cost us all more money. :x

[RichardP]

Is there a plan for track records set not using the spec tire?


Richard P.

[michaelmosty]

There is no win in any situation out there. From my gut feeling there probablly won't be a single 275 RA1 available in the nation in 1 week (or possibly now even). Gut also tells me that there won't be any available for the remainder of the year.

I would love to see the TX AI and CMC groups make an "agreement" to only run RA1's but I don't see how that is possible given the availability. I know I personally have through TWS and with an enormous miracle enough for Hallett (about 2% chance they will last that long).

Glenn mentioned the fact that 255/40/17's are available so what about running these instead of "any" tire? Obviously Nationals will be a Hoosier fest but that doesn't mean regionals has to be.

[kbrewmr2]

damn misread the thing

Wonder if you guys could get the tire rules setup to specify something like a BFG R1, Nitto NT-01, or similar instead...?

[BlueFirePony]

Hallett will be interesting...
Or even Sunday at TWS :twisted:

[marshall_mosty]

How is AI Management going to handle a suedo spec tire for the remainder of the year?

1. Any DOT allowed? (Nitto, BFG, Toyo, Hankook, Hoosier)
2. Only DOT tires "similiar to" RA1's, i.e. no Hoosiers or BFG?
3. Completely open tire class, i.e. full slicks?

Also, how will the Toyo contingency work going forward. Currently the "big money" is only for 5+ starters, obviously with the assumption that they are running RA1's (or 888's for 18"). If we have a mix of tires in AI, will the Toyo contingency be viable?

Also, has NASA discussed Toyo Buck expiration with Toyo. It would be unfair, IMHO, for racers to have certificates expire due to a shortage from Toyo, outside of the racer's control.


As a side note, what are NASA's plans for 2012? Is the tire shortage expected to last into 2012? What is the possibility of a new spec tire supplier? The reason I ask is for the year-end contingency Toyo bucks. It would be a shame to push all year for a championship and have $2000 worth of Toyo bucks that won't be of any use if we change suppliers...

[Al Fernandez]

At this point its anybody's guess how long tire shortages will last. I've heard everything from a few months to over a year but I have not heard anything from an official source. The order of priority has been what to do for the rest of this season, what to do for nationals, what to do next season and beyond.

I know NASA is working on whether or not Toyo contingencies will continue to apply with the requirement of running a Toyo being lifted in AI and what to do about existing Toyo bucks. No official answer yet. Hoosier contingency applies going forward.

[kbrewmr2]

Hoosier contingency applies going forward.

currently they're not listed here thus the class doesn't qualify:
http://www.nasaproracing.com/contingency/hoosier_tire_contingency_program/2011_Hoosier_Tire_Regional_Contingency_Info.pdf

That would need to change for it to apply, no? Might you guys see that change soon??

[Al Fernandez]

Obviously updating online documentation is going to take a little longer than a couple of hours. Hoosier contingency will apply to AI.

[mitchntx]

Hoosier contingency applies going forward.

currently they're not listed here thus the class doesn't qualify:
http://www.nasaproracing.com/contingency/hoosier_tire_contingency_program/2011_Hoosier_Tire_Regional_Contingency_Info.pdf

That would need to change for it to apply, no? Might you guys see that change soon??

There's that OCD thing kicking in. You can't hack away some HTML code in Notepad any more.


Some poor schmuck has been assigned to update a corporate website.

He has to develop a plan

Get the plan approved by a Sr. Graphics and Marketing Committee to ensure the plan doesn't conflict with current and future Marketing plans.

The approval requires a quorum and 3 of the 5 Sr. Managers are either in other meetings, on boon-dogle, diddling a golf ball or on vacation.

Once approved, the plan goes to production where some $10/hr. intern is tasked to make the changes with little or no guidance. "Just bring me a rock."

After the intern submits rev. 19, the schmuck developer approves rev 2 and submits to the Sr. Graphics and Marketing committee.

They approve rev 1

Rev. 1 is then pushed to the test server. It languishes there because the schmuck developer never submitted the cyber-security plan to the Corporate security department for review.

Once the paper trail is established and all possible cyber leaks are plugged, it is put into the que for pushing to the production server.

That happens every Wednesday evening beginning at 2300 hrs.

So check back next week ...

You think I'm kidding, right? :roll:

[kbrewmr2]

:lol: nice one Mitch

another question - doesn't really affect you guys but Al did you hear if the other affected classes (944-Spec and HC) will get picked up under the various contingency programs open to other classes?

[GlennCMC70]

Is there a plan for track records set not using the spec tire?


Richard P.

I will not change the track records if it is done on a non-spec RA1. Until the SPEC Tire is set as something other than an RA1 as a permanent change.

[GlennCMC70]

damn misread the thing

Wonder if you guys could get the tire rules setup to specify something like a BFG R1, Nitto NT-01, or similar instead...?

The NT-01 is made in the same plant as the RA1. Those options have already been looked at w/ regards to "something along the same grip level" and there were no AVAILABLE solutions.

[GlennCMC70]

There is no win in any situation out there. From my gut feeling there probablly won't be a single 275 RA1 available in the nation in 1 week (or possibly now even). Gut also tells me that there won't be any available for the remainder of the year.

I would love to see the TX AI and CMC groups make an "agreement" to only run RA1's but I don't see how that is possible given the availability. I know I personally have through TWS and with an enormous miracle enough for Hallett (about 2% chance they will last that long).

Glenn mentioned the fact that 255/40/17's are available so what about running these instead of "any" tire? Obviously Nationals will be a Hoosier fest but that doesn't mean regionals has to be.

For now, CMC/CMC2 will only be allowed the RA1 of a legal size and smaller. Until there are no options for 16's and 17's (including the 255/17) we will not change. I have a pretty good hunch that is to include Nationals.

[GlennCMC70]

How is AI Management going to handle a suedo spec tire for the remainder of the year?

1. Any DOT allowed? (Nitto, BFG, Toyo, Hankook, Hoosier)
2. Only DOT tires "similiar to" RA1's, i.e. no Hoosiers or BFG?
3. Completely open tire class, i.e. full slicks?

Also, how will the Toyo contingency work going forward. Currently the "big money" is only for 5+ starters, obviously with the assumption that they are running RA1's (or 888's for 18"). If we have a mix of tires in AI, will the Toyo contingency be viable?

Also, has NASA discussed Toyo Buck expiration with Toyo. It would be unfair, IMHO, for racers to have certificates expire due to a shortage from Toyo, outside of the racer's control.


As a side note, what are NASA's plans for 2012? Is the tire shortage expected to last into 2012? What is the possibility of a new spec tire supplier? The reason I ask is for the year-end contingency Toyo bucks. It would be a shame to push all year for a championship and have $2000 worth of Toyo bucks that won't be of any use if we change suppliers...


Difficulties relating to raw material supply, electricity availability, and transport restrictions have greatly impacted the availability of the Toyo Proxes RA-1 tire which is the specified tire for many NASA classes. As such, NASA will be removing the requirement to use the Toyo Proxes RA-1 from the American Iron, Honda Challenge, and Spec 944 classes beginning on May 1, 2011 and will allow any DOT-approved R compound tire. Spec Tire classes will be handled on a case-by-case basis, so please keep informed by visiting the www.nasaproracing.com for any new information if and when it’s posted or by visiting your class section on the www.nasaforums.com. NASA will be sure to post any new information when it’s available.

Lots of good questions Marshall. I've already asked them and we are waiting on an answer.

[marshall_mosty]

Obviously updating online documentation is going to take a little longer than a couple of hours. Hoosier contingency will apply to AI.

So AI guys, are we going to Hoosiers? Need to know if I need to pull the trigger on a new pair of shoes...

I'm all up for a gentelemen's agreement in TX to only run RA1's, NT-01's or 888's, as I have enough tires (RA1's and 888's) to last the year (I think).

[BlueFirePony]

There's that OCD thing kicking in. You can't hack away some HTML code in Notepad any more.


Some poor schmuck has been assigned to update a corporate website.

He has to develop a plan

Get the plan approved by a Sr. Graphics and Marketing Committee to ensure the plan doesn't conflict with current and future Marketing plans.

The approval requires a quorum and 3 of the 5 Sr. Managers are either in other meetings, on boon-dogle, diddling a golf ball or on vacation.

Once approved, the plan goes to production where some $10/hr. intern is tasked to make the changes with little or no guidance. "Just bring me a rock."

After the intern submits rev. 19, the schmuck developer approves rev 2 and submits to the Sr. Graphics and Marketing committee.

They approve rev 1

Rev. 1 is then pushed to the test server. It languishes there because the schmuck developer never submitted the cyber-security plan to the Corporate security department for review.

Once the paper trail is established and all possible cyber leaks are plugged, it is put into the que for pushing to the production server.

That happens every Wednesday evening beginning at 2300 hrs.

So check back next week ...

You think I'm kidding, right? :roll:
Says who? I do it every day ;) Course I'm an all-in-one consultant and don't have to abide by process ;)

[BlueFirePony]

Obviously updating online documentation is going to take a little longer than a couple of hours. Hoosier contingency will apply to AI.

So AI guys, are we going to Hoosiers? Need to know if I need to pull the trigger on a new pair of shoes...

I'm all up for a gentelemen's agreement in TX to only run RA1's, NT-01's or 888's, as I have enough tires (RA1's and 888's) to last the year (I think).
I'll have to get back to you after I talk to the team. I hate that it took a natural disaster and a lot of pain worldwide to get to this point but I've been wanting to run Hoosier's in AI since day 1...having said that I haz teammates that I need to consult.

[ShadowBolt]

There is no win in any situation out there. From my gut feeling there probablly won't be a single 275 RA1 available in the nation in 1 week (or possibly now even). Gut also tells me that there won't be any available for the remainder of the year.

I would love to see the TX AI and CMC groups make an "agreement" to only run RA1's but I don't see how that is possible given the availability. I know I personally have through TWS and with an enormous miracle enough for Hallett (about 2% chance they will last that long).

Glenn mentioned the fact that 255/40/17's are available so what about running these instead of "any" tire? Obviously Nationals will be a Hoosier fest but that doesn't mean regionals has to be.

For now, CMC/CMC2 will only be allowed the RA1 of a legal size and smaller. Until there are no options for 16's and 17's (including the 255/17) we will not change. I have a pretty good hunch that is to include Nationals.

Maybe I can get rid of the set of 888's I have. Or maybe I will have to use them.


JJ

[cobra132]

I make a motion that in Texas for cmc, cmc2 and AI that the replacement "spec" tire be the Nitto NT01. They are the same compound, are basically slick at the full tread depth of 6/32, they cost less than RA-1's and without the need to shave will be much more cost effective, they have an excellent track record and are available easily from Discount tires. (Can also be ordered heat cycled for $15 a tire) I pick up a set of heat cycled tires today for the enduro. FMR

[marshall_mosty]

So AI guys, are we going to Hoosiers? Need to know if I need to pull the trigger on a new pair of shoes...



I'll have to get back to you after I talk to the team. I hate that it took a natural disaster and a lot of pain worldwide to get to this point but I've been wanting to run Hoosier's in AI since day 1...having said that I haz teammates that I need to consult.



I make a motion that in Texas for cmc, cmc2 and AI that the replacement "spec" tire be the Nitto NT01. They are the same compound, are basically slick at the full tread depth of 6/32, they cost less than RA-1's and without the need to shave will be much more cost effective, they have an excellent track record and are available easily from Discount tires. (Can also be ordered heat cycled for $15 a tire) I pick up a set of heat cycled tires today for the enduro. FMR


So:

Hoosier
Brian

Nitto NT01/RA1/888
Frank
Marshall

However, the Hoosier contingency is the cat's meow...
FWIW, I have a set of decals coming from Hoosier, just incase.

Frank, would you be willing to jump on the Hoosier band wagon? We can always sell our RA1's to CMC2 guys.

[marshall_mosty]

4 heat cycled Hoosiers shipped.... $1311.94 :shock:

Kinda makes a contigency that easily pays the equivalent of $600 (tire cost) per weekend pretty sweet... (For 3+ starters)

[cobra132]

I now have 4 heat cycled NT01's for $1020 mounted and no enduro. Too pissed to comment. FMR

[GlennCMC70]

I make a motion that in Texas for cmc, cmc2 and AI that the replacement "spec" tire be the Nitto NT01. They are the same compound, are basically slick at the full tread depth of 6/32, they cost less than RA-1's and without the need to shave will be much more cost effective, they have an excellent track record and are available easily from Discount tires. (Can also be ordered heat cycled for $15 a tire) I pick up a set of heat cycled tires today for the enduro. FMR

That option was sugested. NT-01's are made in the same plant as the RA1. Availablity must have been too low for National suport.

[edrock96GT]

I like the Hoosier idea if the standing contingency applies. I feel Frank's pain though, having just bought a set of tires (maybe someone wants to buy them?). It will take me a little while to save up for a set of Hoosiers but I have until June if that's the way we decide to go.

That's just my feelings on the matter, but don't let it be a deal breaker if everyone chooses another option. I'll go with what works best for the group.

[jdlingle]

To those AI guys running 17s that will be looking to off load RA1's if you switch I may be in the market. Got to pay for the cage this week when I pick it up so I am running a borrowed set of Jeremiahs used 888's (thanks again!) for comp school with the two 888s Marshall gave me as oh shit insurance for that weekend. Hopefully with a month or two of recovering from the cage cost I can spring for some RA1s to be a part of the ECR race in October. (I definitely wont be be able to go to Hallett tires or not) I would be more partial to take offs since Im getting started but will have to get something lined up one way or another. Any of you guys that are interested can pm and if you do something different or the situation changes before I can pull the trigger thats cool.

[Fbody383]

I have a pretty good hunch that is to include Nationals. That could turn into the "haves and have nots"... especially if it were to rain at Nationals.

I have two sets of TTW that need to be flipped and a new 5/32 set yet to be mounted. I'm trying to manage these to get to Hallett with a potential set of wets... but what about if I want to try Nationals?

Gonna be interesting.

[AllZWay]

Mitch.... This is what I thought of from your post.
[/img]

[kbrewmr2]

Hoosier has quickly stepped up to the plate:
http://www.nasaproracing.com/2011/04/hoosier-racing-tire-responds-t.html


VALLEY, CA (April 7, 2011) The National Auto Sport Association (NASA) is pleased to announce effective May 1, 2011 Hoosier Racing Tire will extend it’s generous contingency program to include the American Iron, Honda Challenge, and 944 Spec classes.

The newly announced contingency program expansion which will apply only to competitors competing on the “R” compound tire will award up to 4 free tires per race to class competitors. For complete details on the new Hoosier contingency offerings for the American Iron, Honda Challenge, and 944 Spec classes, please visit www.nasaproracing.com/contingency.

[BlueFirePony]

Consulted with the guys.

Hopefully you guys know I am straight up and an open book when it comes to racing with you all, so here are my thoughts.

I don't have a clue what is in the minds of the NASA leadership beyond this current situation. I"ve been in contact with Jerry/JWL/Ryan for the last month or so and it seems they are trying to do the right thing overall. I have seen enough to have ZERO trust that Toyo can be viewed in that light.

I think there is a way to take the current situation and make a course correction, but it would have to be a very well organized effort on the part of not just our region but many others as well. If someone wants to take charge of that, I'd lend my support but I don't have the time or energy right now to do so.

That leads me to my thoughts about the here and now. Most important is that I want what is best for us - I don't want this tire thing to jeopardize the momentum we have as a group. So I stand behind whatever we decide as a group and so do Clifton, Dave and Kyri.
Here are some things bouncing around in my head:

1) Frank has real $ tied up in NT01s that he planned to use for enduro but could use for sprint races starting May 1st. I want to factor this - we need (or at least should want to) to take care of each other.

2) Frank has put a motion that NT01 be the agreed-upon replacement spec for AI in Texas; this would seem to re-stabilize the situation for this year.

3) I think we have a real opportunity to test the waters and see what other manufacturers have to offer us in real-here-and-now (i.e. not the "I ran xxx 3 years ago and they were great/crappy etc."). Goodyear and Hoosiers are same price as RA1s in my size so I'd be willing to run one of them and collect real data.

4)BFG, Nitto are cheaper and seem comparable to RA1s - both come 4/32 so no real need to shave and the care-and-feeding of the tires are pretty much the same.

5) My expectation is that if everyone runs NT01s and I run Hoosiers it gives me a 1sec/lap advantage for 3 laps and then I overdrive the car and back to normal - just a fact of my skill level. If Dave runs Hoosiers he kicks ass - again, just a fact of his skill level. I have no doubt that I can make Hoosiers last as long as RA1s, so to me the Hoosiers have a plus by virtue of performance, contingency and being American made.

6) If we all run NT01 or BFG we are all pretty much in the same boat, learning as we go, saving some short term $ and probably not enough racing this year to wind up costing us anything if those brands don't hold up (which I suspect they will hold up just fine).

So, where do we stand. I am good with either NT01/BFG-spec or Run-What-You_Brung - have fun either way.

[GlennCMC70]

Doens't the NT-01 have the same supply issue? I was told a few times that the NT-01 and the RA1 are made in the same plant.

As for the May 1st timeline. I'll go ahead and say that it wil be in affect for all of TWS if we need it to be.

[edrock96GT]

I like the idea of using NT-01s, but if they are going to face the same issue as the Toyo tire, then we're back to square one. I think Nittos would be a good temporary solution (for the Texas region anyway) if we can all get our hands on at least one set, or whatever we would need to get through the rest of the season.

I agree that we should all look out for each other and that's why I think NT-01s would be a good quick fix. Frank already bought a set and if we all did (and/or use up our remaining Toyos), we wouldn't ditch him and leave him hanging.

That being said, I personally would like to switch to Hoosiers. I like the contingency better, and I feel that we should have the best parts available on our cars. American Iron is an aftermarket parts showcase class with minimal class restrictions. I think a switch to Hoosiers would better fit the spirit of AI and let us get more performance out of our cars.

I think our class using a combination of Toyo/Nittos could get us through the year on a pretty level playing field and I think it would be a good idea now to plan to have all of us AI guys on Hoosiers for 2012.

[BlueFirePony]

We will for sure want to get some input on availability before we make a decision.
Also, I need to correct something...apparently NT01 comes 6/32 not 4/32. I looked back at some past invoices and see that I did have them shaved.

[GlennCMC70]

I like the NT-01 idea as well.
And I love seeing you guys looking out for one another here. Your the class of the field and a perfect example for the rest of the AI series to follow.

[BlueFirePony]

Is anyone in a position to get real availability on the NT-01? It's starting to look like that might be the most appropriate short-term for us here in Texas.
Alternative if availability is no good would maybe be the BFG since they are similar and then Frank would be able to run the NT01s without any disadvantage and we'd all spend a little less on tires for the rest of the year?

Just phoning around is what got us screwed on the RA1's. It was not until I started calling to actually buy that I was told by distributors that they could not get their hands on the tires they *thought* they had in inventory. The first day of calling, 6 companies said they had them, then the next day I called an no one could sell them.

I'm heads down from here through the rest of the weekend so I'll check back Sunday night....I'm with you all on whichever way you guys think is best - I trust ya :)

[Casey_SS]

I'm also in favor of a move to NT01's if there is adequate supply. If not, I'd personally rather go the BFG route than Hoosiers. The Hoosier contingency is great for the front runners but doesn't apply to the majority of the field, making it considerably more expensive for most guys. I fear that Hoosiers = lower car count. Pretty simple. Obviously I don't know this for a fact but I think it's a fairly predicatable long-term result.

[michaelmosty]

What is the status of tires for the AI drivers? I know Marshall's will last at least two more events, I think Calder's are good for a couple, Eddie said he has new tires, Frank has new Nittos (not sure on RA1's), and not sure on Neary.

If the AI drivers have RA1's to last "x" number of events then I'd say run them for as long as everyone can. Then determine that at event #5 this year (for example) certain people will switch to Nitto's or another alternative.

Individually I wouldn't spend more $ on tires until my current RA1's are dead.

[rpoz27]

we just bought 12 NT01's from onlinetires.com for $175ea. $90 shipping for all 12.

Sounds like a great option for you guys.

[edrock96GT]

What is the status of tires for the AI drivers? I know Marshall's will last at least two more events, I think Calder's are good for a couple, Eddie said he has new tires, Frank has new Nittos (not sure on RA1's), and not sure on Neary.

If the AI drivers have RA1's to last "x" number of events then I'd say run them for as long as everyone can. Then determine that at event #5 this year (for example) certain people will switch to Nitto's or another alternative.

Individually I wouldn't spend more $ on tires until my current RA1's are dead.

I don't have new tires, but I believe my tires will last the rest of the season, plus the TTWs you gave me that can be swapped in as needed.

Besides, I may have to cut down on racing since I'm now getting paid an IOU. :roll:

Casey, the Hoosier contingency would be a good solution for AI, since we only have 4-5 cars that are regularly fielded. I know what you're saying about everybody else though...it won't be very good for CMC since they have so many cars. I think Nitto's or BFGs would be a good option for them.

It may help keep the classes separated a bit better as well. :lol:

[marshall_mosty]

Here's my situation:

1. Have enough RA1's (current set to last through Hallett, at least).
2. May run 888's at TWS, depending on times.
3. Will try and stretch what I have through the end of the year, depending on how many events "make". Right now the only event after Hallett is ECR in October... guess it depends on what happens with TWS???

[RichardP]

Maybe locally AI could be set up with a TT style points/weight penalty for the different tires to try and equalize things. Allows those who want to run Hoosies or such to do so without penalizing those with a stack of Toyos ready to go...

Richard P.

[marshall_mosty]

Maybe locally AI could be set up with a TT style points/weight penalty for the different tires to try and equalize things. Allows those who want to run Hoosies or such to do so without penalizing those with a stack of Toyos ready to go...

Richard P.

I'll take Hoosiers for a 150-lb weight penalty Alex... just kiddin'

[mitchntx]

How about you guys do the Hoosier thing begining at TWS and all your Hoosier Bucks goes to Eddie.

Because of what he's doing for us, allows us to keep doing this.

[edrock96GT]

How about you guys do the Hoosier thing begining at TWS and all your Hoosier Bucks goes to Eddie.

Because of what he's doing for us, allows us to keep doing this.

You're my new favorite person! :D

Looks like congress finally got their heads out of their ass though (for now). Gotta love this day and age though, I think it only took a matter of hours from the time it showed on our LES (pay stubs) for the uproar it caused to reach the ears of Washington.

[way2neary]

Gents,

You guys asked about my situation re: tires. I had about 7 RA1's from last season in varying degrees of digress. The tires probably have another race weekend or two, which I figured would last through Cresson. To be ready for the season, I had picked up another set of RA1's in January, which are basically unused. With my motor woes, all of the tires remain in about the same state and I could run on RA1's all season.
Personally, if you guys ran NT 01's or Hoosiers, it would be fine by me. If you all switch to NT01's, I may just run with the Toyo's since in my personal setup/level, there is not much difference between the two. If you go Hoosiers, I would need to sell my "basically" unused RA1's and upgrade, which I'd rather not do.

[cobra132]

I have RA-1s, 888's and NT01's to last the rest of the year. Especially if we don't have any enduros. I really don't care what we run on. My point with the NT01's is that they appear to be available, are affordable, don't require shaving and are the same compound, so people can use what they have and there are no "advantage" issues. Hoosiers are great tires and personnaly I have never understood why we use a spec tire that comes in full tread and has to be shaved when there are "race" tires ready to go out of the box. The down side is that Hoosiers are expensive and I guess when you charge an extra $100 per tire you can set up a nice contingency. Anyway, what ever is agreed upon, I would like to use up what I have. If people want to use Hoosiers I have no objection, winning is just not that important to me. Any word on un-used toyo bucks? FMR

[BlueFirePony]

OK I am back...wow, I missed a lot...most notably I guess is the new software...I hate CAPTCHAs (took 3 tries to post this message)..can it be turned off since forum members are pretty much approved by a human in the first place...or has that been automated now?
Ooops, back on topic.
So if I read correctly, all the AI guys have Toyo's for TWS, possibly Hallet.
Marshall and Dave N. are flush and Frank is good if we include the NT01.
Eddie is riding thin but thinks he can make do.
We'd be OK through TWS but I doubt I want to go to Hallet with 1 set of tires and I'd need tires by ECR even if we don't run the TWS invitational.
Casey likes the NT01 path and I think it would be prefered over Hoosiers for all the CMC guys if it came to that.

Soooo...NT01 it is with BFG as a true option tire for the rest of 2011 (excluding whatever happens at National level) if we can't buy the NT01s? Straight up - no penalties, no hurt feelings and a little extra $ in the pockets over RA1/Hoosier/Goodyear.
I see the postulating on the national AI forum and I'll post there when I get a chance...I am TOTALLY opposed to any stupid penatlies for choosing an option tire in this circumstance...I did not create the shortage and I am not going to take a penalty because of it.

[Al Fernandez]

I would not think you could add enough weight to equalize a car on Hoosiers and RA1s/Nittos. I think you guys are headed in the right direction: gentleman's agreement to run RA1s or Nittos until it simply cannot be done any longer. That's the same path the Texas 944 guys are on.

[Adam Ginsberg]

FWIW, the tire shop at Buttonwillow had several RA1 17's, in stock. http://www.buttonwillowraceway.com/tirecenter.htm.

Last time I spoke to him, Bryan Shackleford had 17" RA1's in stock, too.

Just a thought.

[RichardP]

gentleman's agreement to run RA1s or Nittos until it simply cannot be done any longer.

I like the gentleman's agreement for AI but I thought the plan to keep CMC in Toyos only works if all the AI guys give them up...


Anyway, I bought a set of Nittos so I would have something to run at Hallett. I have no insight into whether there is a huge stock or if I bought the last four...


Richard P.

[BlueFirePony]

I'm a blue & black sheep running 18s so I don't think giving up my RA1s helps my CMC brothers.
I guess we come back to this discussion after TWS...

[MikeP99Z]

Not that I'm racing AI this year or in the near future, but here's my opinion:

The National office made any R compound DOT tire legal (our size of course). So, naturally, I'm going to buy what I perceive is the fastest legal tire per the CCR. See the math in the other thread regarding contingencies and actual cost. Also, I hate the Toyos almost as much as I hate the Ford Racing ABS.

I do see the bigger problem being what they are going to do for Nationals.

All my Toyos are for sale.

[kbrewmr2]

yeah for all those classes that had their tires opened up they need to decide now or very soon if there will be any tire restrictions for Nationals and if so what they will be. I bet they're working on it, but it'd sure make me nervous if I was in one of those classes until I heard something concrete

[kbrewmr2]

potential good news for those wanting to get back on Toyos ASAP


Crain News Service report

SENDAI, Japan (April 18, 2011) — Output at Toyo Tire & Rubber Co. Ltd.’s car tire plant in Sendai is up to 70 percent of capacity and should reach 100 percent in May, the company said.

Output stopped after the earthquake March 11 and has been recovering slowly. Initial production re-started on April 8. As of April 10, output was 40 percent, but that rose to 70 percent on April 12.

“The plan for the future is to step up the rate of operations in stages while responding flexibly to supply and logistical issues, so that by May, operations may resume at full capacity,” Toyo said.

[kbrewmr2]

more good news for Toyo users:
Toyo steps up to the plate by making their contingency better

http://www.nasaproracing.com/2011/04/toyo-modifies-nasa-contingency.html


Toyo Modifies NASA Contingency Program
April 20, 2011 12:52 PM — NAPA VALLEY, CA (April 19, 2011)- Toyo Tires is pleased to announce that the Toyo Regional Contingency Program will remain in effect for NASA classes that specified the Toyo brand at the beginning of the 2011 racing season. Due to the devastating effects of the earthquake...
...in Japan, some of the NASA classes were forced to allow additional tire brands due to production limitations at the Toyo plant in Sendai, Japan. Toyo Tires remains supportive to the NASA racer and will reward contingency based on the highest finishing driver on the Toyo brand. This means that if a racer finishes 3rd in a race but is the top finisher using a Toyo, that driver will qualify for the 1st place Toyo contingency reward. Motorsports Manager Stan Chen said, "we are very appreciative of our NASA racers and we want to reward them for continuing to support our brand."

Toyo Tires reports that production is back up to about 70% of the level prior to the earthquake. The plan for the future is to step up the rate of operations in stages while responding flexibly to supply and logistical issues, so that by May, operations may resume at full capacity.

[marshall_mosty]

All,
Just got off the phone with all the AI directors, Jeremy (contingency guru), and JWL. The Toyo issue is still very cloudy, as the motorsport group within Toyo isn't exactly sure what is going to show up in the next container. So, there "may" be more 17's, and there might not be. It's already widely known that the 18's are now made of unobtanium and there is no hope on the immediate horizon for those sizes.

There is still a very minimal supply of RA1's in 17" sizes in the nation if you look hard enough. We are working diligently to update the racer's with official press releases as the situations develop.

What to do with National's was discussed and still needs time to brew before an announcement can be made (which will come from either Todd or Jeremy).

[marshall_mosty]

more good news for Toyo users:
Toyo steps up to the plate by making their contingency better

http://www.nasaproracing.com/2011/04/toyo-modifies-nasa-contingency.html

To clarify further, if there are four AI starters and only one is on Toyo's, the driver on Toyo's are automatically going to win 1st place contingency. This does NOT transfer the same with Hoosier. Hoosier will only pay for the top spots, if that is also your finishing position.

[mitchntx]

Wow!

The ink on the rubber stamp isn't even dry, yet.

[marshall_mosty]

Just in case anyone is interested we have 140 - 275/40R17 RA-1's in stock. That should be enough for someone...
http://philstireservice.com
From the Nat'l AI formus.

[RichardP]

Free tires from BFG:
http://www.nasaproracing.com/2011/05/bfgoodrich-announces-new-conti.html

http://www.nasaproracing.com/contingency/bfgoodrich_contingency_program/2011_BFGoodrich_Tire_Regional_Contingency_Info.pdf


Richard P.

[Wirtz]

I'm hoping everyone is in decent shape with tires now, but if not, let me know. I have a new set of 275x17s and a new set of 255x16s as well as a used set of 255x16s that would probably rather be out playing at the track than just chilling in the garage.

Jeff

[Rob Liebbe]

Why isn't CMC in the BFG program?

[Waco Racer]

Looks like BFG doesn't make a 255/50-16 R1.

http://www.bfgoodrichtires.com/tire-selector/name/g-force-r1-tires

[Rob Liebbe]

Sorry - CMC2, guess I'm thinking we're all one big happy family already.

[Crumpacker]

I'm kinda glad we're not part of the program... BFGs are comparable price and no shaving req, but I'm worried about the 40 treadwear rating. Back in my DE days, I had some 40 treadwear Kuhmo V710s that corded on day 3.

I do like the BFG contingency payout much better though!

[marshall_mosty]

I'm kinda glad we're not part of the program... BFGs are comparable price and no shaving req, but I'm worried about the 40 treadwear rating. Back in my DE days, I had some 40 treadwear Kuhmo V710s that corded on day 3.

I do like the BFG contingency payout much better though!
From the information the AI guys gathered, the BFG's wear like iron, but fall-off after 10-12 heat cycles (similar to a Hoosier)... Might be worth getting a set just to get some test data??

[GlennCMC70]

Sorry - CMC2, guess I'm thinking we're all one big happy family already.

I would sure hate to not be able to race w/ my new CMC car cause I can't put a BFG on my 16's.
I have no plans for an upgrade to 17's at this point.

[kbrewmr2]

Why isn't CMC in the BFG program?
aren't CMC 1 and 2 still required to run Toyos?

[Al Fernandez]

Since CMC/CMC2 are required to run Toyos no other tire contingency can apply.

FYI Tommy Schender just told me he has plenty of 16s and 17s available and will deliver to Hallett!!

[Rob Liebbe]

I'm kinda glad we're not part of the program... BFGs are comparable price and no shaving req, but I'm worried about the 40 treadwear rating. Back in my DE days, I had some 40 treadwear Kuhmo V710s that corded on day 3.

An interesting thing about treadwear ratings is that the manufacturer can claim or label the tire with any rating it wants to as long as it is below what the tire tested on the uniform treadwear test. So if your tire tested at a 200 treadwear, you can call it a 40 or 60 or 150 as long as you don't label it over the 200 test result. With this loophole, the tire manufacturers' marketing department will sometimes capitalize on this in conjunction with the perception that lower treadwear ratings equal high performance and label a tire lower than tested. The number, by the way, is just the tire's wear relative to a standardized test tire. A 200 rating wears twice as long as the standard test tire, a 50 wears half as long.

Just in case anyone cares.

[GlennCMC70]

Great info.
Doesn't the depth of tread on the tire also factor into the treadwear rating? If I had two tires w/ the same compound, but one was a 8/32" tread depth and the other was a 4/32" tread depth, wouldn't that reduce the number by a factor of half?
W/ this in mind, the Toyo RA1 comes w/ a 8/32" tread. The BFG R1 comes w/ what?

[marshall_mosty]

Great info.
Doesn't the depth of tread on the tire also factor into the treadwear rating? If I had two tires w/ the same compound, but one was a 8/32" tread depth and the other was a 4/32" tread depth, wouldn't that reduce the number by a factor of half?
W/ this in mind, the Toyo RA1 comes w/ a 8/32" tread. The BFG R1 comes w/ what?
Don't know if it holds true for DOT-R tires, but some road tires have different rubber compounds on the surface versus closer to the carcas. That way, they can have a nice, quiet ride out of the box and then turn to solid steel lower in the tread depth...

[jdlingle]

I believe the BFG R1 comes at 4/32 from the factory.

[Rob Liebbe]

Glenn, the treadwear rate wouldn't necessarily change, but the mileage to wearout would be affected. The treadwear test is based on street and highway driving at sub-limit levels where the tread depth is not really a factor. However in racing it is true that lower tread depths will enhance tire life due to a "stiffer" tread block which does not roll under during racing conditions and thus reduces heavy or unusual wear patterns.

[GlennCMC70]

Got it. It is a wear rate as in rate of wear and not the rate of being worn out.
Thanks.

[kbrewmr2]

http://www.nasaproracing.com/2011/05/nasa-announces-new-spec-tire-p.html

For Nationals and AI - Hoosiers and the new H20 Wets only.

[BlueFirePony]

Not that going to nationals was even on my mind, but that decision turned out just like my last game of poker...I chase open ended straights (RA1/NT01) and the river fills in a royal flush (Hoosier) for other players and I end up buying back in.

Did the blind just go up (Hoosier for next year)?

[marshall_mosty]

Did the blind just go up (Hoosier for next year)?
Brian,
There is no definate answer for 2012. We just don't know yet. There are almost half a dozen tires being discussed right now for 2012, each with their strengths and weaknesses. The whole nationals deal was needed to secure a good contingency program for the racers AND have the spec tire be available in all sizes (read 18").

Please stay tuned. I've relayed the TX region's thoughts on what we "want" in a spec tire. So have all the other regions. NASA Poo-Bah's are aware and are working diligently with all interested parties to determine what our "go forward" plan will be.

[BlueFirePony]

I thought I'd post my experience for anyone that might find a need to buy NT01s this year. I tried calling two Discount Tire stores near me (the two closest) and both told me that they could not get NT01s - the guy at the second store, after going off to check with "the district office" for several minutes, came back and told me that they were on backorder "nationally" and no ETA.
I found that very odd (and eerily familiar), so I called a third store and they were able to find them - just came in and I'll be mounting them this weekend.
Moral of the story...if at first you don't succeed, swith to NT01s and then keep trying ;) - either that or switch to 17s...not really sure actually.:confused:

[Casey_SS]

www.discounttiredirect.com - plenty of stock and free shipping. $848 for a set of 17s to my door. The last set was $799 but gas prices are higher now. I really like the $$ / performance ratio of these tires....would save us all a bunch of money if chosen as the spec tire but that's pretty well understood by this point. Can't wait to see how it all shakes out :p

[edrock96GT]

I hope it shakes out pretty damn soon. They need to go ahead and make up my mind and tell me which tire I have to buy.

[marshall_mosty]

Eddie,
1st choice would be to buy RA1's. I know that Tommy Schlender from the RM region has them "in stock". Phils Tire also have them in stock. I just sent some "bucks" off to Applachian Race Tire to get in the queue, as they seem to get some every 2 1/2 weeks or so..

Second choice would be to find scrub RA1's. I know Mike Patterson had some for sale.

Third choice per our "gentlemen's agreement" in TX would be NT01's

If you fully run the traps on the first three options, give me a call and we can work something out.

[edrock96GT]

I've got 2 spare TTWs that Michael gave to me, those should get me through the year at least. Hopefully by then NASA will have it set for us.

[way2neary]

Hey AI Gents

I need to buy a spare set of tires for Eagles Canyon. Are you guys running NT01's? Just want to make sure before buying a new set.

Thx

Dave

[Casey_SS]

I'll be on NT01s....also curious what everyone else will be running though.

Possibly a redundant discussion but what does everyone want for next year? I know it's a national decision for business reasons, etc. but I'm still curious whether we all want the same thing or not after watching Nationals, running an open tire rule most of the season, etc.

[marshall_mosty]

I'm on four event old TTW's (RA1's) for the rear and two fresh 5/32" RA1's on the front, as I corded one of the fronts at Hallett.

No clues right now on tires for 2012. It's anyone's guess at the moment. When I have more to share, I will.

[marshall_mosty]

Hey AI Gents

I need to buy a spare set of tires for Eagles Canyon. Are you guys running NT01's? Just want to make sure before buying a new set.

Thx

Dave
Dave,
NT01's will be fine. RA1's, 888's, or NT01's are per our "agreement" earlier in the year. Just make sure your valvetrain is in check... :)

[mitchntx]

I have two sets (8)
275/40-17 RA1s with 2011 date codes.
Never mounted
One set is shaved at 4/32s
One set shaved at 5/32s

$1000/set

Best way to inquire is via e-mail
mitchntx@gmail.com

[BlueFirePony]

Hey AI Gents

I need to buy a spare set of tires for Eagles Canyon. Are you guys running NT01's? Just want to make sure before buying a new set.

Thx

Dave

I might be running a mongrel set for ECR. I corded one of my 4 RA1s in R3 at TWS and had just enough time to get one of the NT01s mounted for R4 which I subsequently sliced pretty good in my final hurrah on the last lap. So I have 3 OK RA1s and 3 OK NT01s...maybe I'll just flip a coin before every sesson ;)

[marshall_mosty]

I might be running a mongrel set for ECR. I corded one of my 4 RA1s in R3 at TWS and had just enough time to get one of the NT01s mounted for R4 which I subsequently sliced pretty good in my final hurrah on the last lap. So I have 3 OK RA1s and 3 OK NT01s...maybe I'll just flip a coin before every sesson ;)
Brian,
I'd run one type on the front and one type on the rear. At least that will give you predictable performance from both ends of the cars regardless of the direction you are turning.

[RichardP]

Brian,
I'd run one type on the front and one type on the rear. At least that will give you predictable performance from both ends of the cars regardless of the direction you are turning.


It's always interesting to me that people want the car to turn the same left and right despite the fact that on all the tracks we run there is exactly 360 degrees more turning in one direction than the other...


Richard P.

[marshall_mosty]

It's always interesting to me that people want the car to turn the same left and right despite the fact that on all the tracks we run there is exactly 360 degrees more turning in one direction than the other...
Richard P.
Richard,
Your detailed thought process is why you work with a company deals with air travel from earth to outerspace and I work for a company that deals with air travel from airport to airport. :)

[HoustonNW]

It's always interesting to me that people want the car to turn the same left and right despite the fact that on all the tracks we run there is exactly 360 degrees more turning in one direction than the other...


Richard P.

So are you saying I should put in some wedge and stagger? I knew that my watching NASCAR would pay off some day!

[RichardP]

So are you saying I should put in some wedge and stagger? I knew that my watching NASCAR would pay off some day!


Wedge, yes. Stagger, no...

Spring rates, camber, tire pressures, etc. all fair game...



Richard P.

[GlennCMC70]

Could it be possible that the turns that make up that 360 degree differental are less important (think corner types - 1/2/3) than the others? So by setting up for a corner that could be considered a "through away" corner could hurt you more than it helps.
I'm sure you will come in a show me why I'm wrong (and I likely am), but I don't think it is just that simple.

Could we pick a track, point out the set-up difference from side to side and talk through it?

[RichardP]

Could it be possible that the turns that make up that 360 degree differental are less important (think corner types - 1/2/3) than the others? So by setting up for a corner that could be considered a "through away" corner could hurt you more than it helps.
I'm sure you will come in a show me why I'm wrong (and I likely am), but I don't think it is just that simple.


You are right. It can be very complicated and there could certainly be setups for important corners that hurt performance in less important corners. There could also be a difference between qualifying, where you are trying to get your best lap time, and race, where you are trying to optimize a corner for a passing opportunity or to prevent being passed.

I don't do a whole lot of asymetrical optimization but it's just a bit frustrating when the default answer is make everything equal side to side because we are road racing.

I did hear a multi time national champion mention something about an asymetrical spring setup for Mid Ohio while we were drinking beer one night a couple of weeks ago. :-)


Richard P.

[GlennCMC70]

Thanks RP.