Apology to Glenn

[ShadowBolt]

I owe Glenn an apology. If you don't know, Glenn told me at TWS I could not run a part that I had made out of .090" aluminum to keep the nose of my car in place. The part I made took the place of the styrofoam piece the car came with. I was pissed and thought that since (in my mind at least) adding 20-25 lbs. to the nose was NOT going to give anyone a performance advantage and that Glenn should have just let it go. I even said since I thought he was my friend and I had helped him in the past that he should not have made a big deal out of it. I was wrong. Glenn and Al do not see a difference in a part that does or does NOT give a performance advantage. I do think there is a difference. I could care less what any of you run if it does not give you an advantage on the track. I should have either painted it black and kept my mouth shut (I showed it to everyone) or brought it up to the directors for a review. Glenn, I hope you will accept this apology. We will never agree that there is a difference but I was an ASS! The stock set-up has a piece of 20 ga steel rectangle tube bolted accross the front with a large piece of Styrofoam glued or double-back taped to the steel tubing. The plastic front bumper cover is held on by two bolts, four rivets and two plastic rivets. If you touch anyone it rips the rivets out of the plastic and the front bumper cover is on the track. I know we are not supposed to hit anyone so you could say "just don't hit anyone and you will not have to worry about it. Well my first year in CMC at TWS a decent driver (of the number 3 National Champion) hit me in the rear going into turn three. He knocked me all the way to the Armco.....over a football field away. After the race not a scratch on his car. I know it was wrong but this kind of stuff will happen as we race this close together. If a National Champion can do it I certainly can. If I hit anone that hard I would lose everything on the front. Even the raditor support and maybe the timing cover and water pump would be damaged. There is nothing to stop it. This SN99 has a poor design.


JJ

[mitchntx]

It takes a big man to write a public apology. Kudos, Jerry.

I know you are pissed about the ruling. I would be as well. What you did makes your life easier and cheaper. But taking the high road and beating some one on a level playing field means so much more.

Doing stuff illegal and then not saying anything about it is not you. You are a man of integrity and a certain amount of respect comes along with that. If you did something like that, then you are just cheating the folks around you and really not accomplishing anything tangible. Some people can sleep at night doing things like that and some people are just natural born takers. They'll get their just rewards some day.

But that just isn't the JJ I've come to know and race with.

Now ... look at it like this ... if you can replace your OEM nose support with aluminum, then I should be able to as well. The reasoning behind it, is not the issue, you got to do it, so it should be OK for everyone. The difference is where you added 20lbs (losing plastic, foam and glue) ... I'd be able to remove 10lbs (replacing steel with aluminum) .. and off the nose.

I'd be all over that rule change!

I'm glad you extended your hand in an attempt to mend fences. And I hope you will still be at Hallett.

[GlennCMC70]

Thanks Jerry. I was upset w/ your responce to me having to do my job. I would hope you would respect me less if I only enforced the rules on those who I didn't respect or like. Having to do so and then hope to still be able to drink a beer w/ you 5 minutes later is very hard for me. It is one of (the many) downsides to doing this job. I'll not hold this against you going forward. Realize I was well w/in my rights to issue a DQ for Saturday. I would have also been well w/in my rights to demand its removal prior to you earning points from that point forward. I felt I was being very respectful by asking for compliance prior to Hallett. Was this due to my perception of its limited impact to on track performance? My respect for you as a fellow racer and a friend? Was it a result of you being upfront about the mod? I'm not sure.

As for the advantage - Lets cover that since if we don't, someone else will. You never quantified where you thought the performance advantage was or was not taking place.
Depending on how it is attached to the car, it can provide an increase in chassis rigidity between the front frame horns. I assume this part bolts to the OEM impact beam and only replaces the foam block. This could reduce frame flex (by any amount is a gain) and help keeps the frame forward of the K-member parallel to one another. We have several limits in the CMC rules designed to prevent gains/mods that generate chassis rigidity. I think Mitch understood this mod incorrectly. This replaces the foam impact absorbing material and not the impact beam itself. The allowance of this part would require some specs w/in the CMC rules to limit all aspects of the part in question. It is far simpler to just not allow it. Sure, the gains w/ yours is questionable and debateable, but it is a very real possibility. Your part could possibly not generate a performance advantage, but I bet folks like Richard could easily design one that could. Not all of us have an Aerospce Engineer at our disposal, or the welding equipment to duplicate such a part. Who is to say that this part could not be designed to be 10 times stiffer w/ one thenth of the weight. This would result in an added exspence to everyone who felt they needed one. Even those who could possibly never have contact on track. This is where the increase in cost comes in. The money saved after post contact is never considered.
One method to help retain the bumper cover is to use larger washers and more fasteners.


While on this line of thinking.....
I've said this many times and touched on it above. The CMC rules often are written as a line in the sand. This line is often drawn in a place where it can be enforced easily. Sometimes this means not allowing a mod to start w/.

As I said above, thanks Jerry. I'll put this behind me as I hope you will as well.

[ShadowBolt]

I'll put this behind me as I hope you will as well.


No problem. Wait until you see my radiator box.


JJ

[mitchntx]

No problem. Wait until you see my radiator box.


JJ

He drives the lane ... pulls up and drains the fade-away 3 pointer

[AllZWay]

This is kind of like the axle support that is not listed as legal in the rule book isn't it? ;)

Before anyone gets bent out of shape....just a joke. :D

[ShadowBolt]

The problem I have guys is that this is my fourth year in wheel to wheel racing and I have seen a lot of contact on those three plus years. Not one has resulted in a front bumper cover on the track........well except for mine two times (both my fault). Obviously there is some difference in strength of the front ends of our cars. The third gen and the Fox are strong when you look at how the 3 hit me at TWS and Michael hitting Mitch last event. My car is finished if I hit anyone like that. So here is why I was so upset. I was sick of the bumper cover flying off with just a touch so I fixed it. Just like some of you that have cars that overheat so you box the radiator. It's not in the rules but no one has a problem with it. There was a problem and the guys that had cars that would not cool correctly did the mod. I had a front bumper cover that falls off at the drop of a hat so I fixed it. I really never thought anyone would care. I promise I didn't. I was so shocked when Glenn said I could not run it I just snapped. It's easy to tell one guy he can't run a part when no one else has that problem. So I assume there will not be any cars at Hallett with boxed radiators? My car runs cool so I don't need a boxed radiator so I really don't want anyone out there running something the rules don't say you can run. Please tell me how this is different? You say my mod could be turned into something mine is not. How about the radiator box? I can build a piece that would also beef up my front bumper cover? How are you going to say I can't run it when several other are? Where you going to draw the line? Glenn you are wrong about chassis stiffening. The stock steel piece is very thin box tubing. If the chassis was flexing it would distort that piece of box tubing but it does not. I really do not want to turn this into a pile of crap (or more of a pile of crap then it already is) and I don't want to build a box for my radiator to support the bumper. I also don't want anyone to have to remove the box on their radiator but please tell me how there is a difference?
I have pics of the part I made and would be glad to show it here but I'm to dumb to post pics.

JJ

[jdlingle]

I can vouch that the bumper on the SN95's is extremely loose, especially after the first time you take it off. There are some small clips that basically have to be broken off that slide under the headlights (mine broke without me even trying to). Thats why I have the day glo green tape around my headlight covers now because they wont stay on at the bottom due to the clips being gone. The rivets on the top end are in plastic and I havent been able to get new ones to hold in the old plastic so I basically have four small screws holding it on now. Hold fine for normal racing but I dont think it would withstand contact like Mikes bumper did when he and Mitch got together at TWS.

I have been wondering about the radiator boxes as well as I had thought about doing one but I know that people have been talking about them and their legality now so I am holding off. I know it will suck for the directors the first draft but I know as the new guy I wish more stuff was spelled out in the rules, and then there would be less interpretation on items like radiator boxes and such that arent specifically allowed. Just my 2 cents, not bitching just trying to contribute.

[mitchntx]

I see your point and its valid.
Maybe the difference is in perception. One is a way can help keep the motor cool and the other can be used as a nerf bar? I dunno ...

I have been told that the sealing of the radiator intake has been a common practice for years and therefore an accepted norm.
Kind of like being able to add fuel to your race car. It's not specifically allowed in the rules, but ...
It probably needs to be addressed as a Tech bulletin or in the 2012 rules, simply because it has created all this hoopla.

The nose on my car collapses and tears at the seams after contact like you describe, Jerry.
When I asked if I could build a support to prevent that, I was told no and that it could be used as a weapon. OK ... whatever.

I don't know what a nose for your car costs, Jerry, but the 93-97 Trans AM bumper fascia is only available through GM now (Certifit no longer lists it) and it's over $600.
Used, beat up ones run $300 or more. The foam substructure is discontinued and no longer available.

When I cite that as a reason, I'm told I was the one who chose the platform or stop hitting people.

So, I feel your pain and frustration ...

[Alien]

I see your point and its valid.
Maybe the difference is in perception. One is a way can help keep the motor cool and the other can be used as a nerf bar? I dunno ...

To play devil's advocate, one can be used as a nerf bar (think building a REALLY stout radiator box), and the other is a way to support a flimsy bumper.

I have been told that the sealing of the radiator intake has been a common practice for years and therefore an accepted norm.
Kind of like being able to add fuel to your race car. It's not specifically allowed in the rules, but ...
I think you need a new argument other than the fuel thing. :) The rules state allowed modifcations 7.1. If a modification is not specifically allowed in the rules... Adding fuel, changing oil, opening the door to get it, pressing the gas pedal to make loud noises, is as required in any factory trim car, and is not a modification. Specifically, oil and fuel are each a replacemnt part, of OEM equivalent. Now adding fuel thru a modified fuel filler neck on the other hand... :D


It probably needs to be addressed as a Tech bulletin or in the 2012 rules, simply because it has created all this hoopla.

Yes.

[mitchntx]

Per Jerry's request ...

http://www.lawmotorsports.net/Pics/Jordan/JJNose1.JPG

http://www.lawmotorsports.net/Pics/Jordan/JJNose2.JPG

http://www.lawmotorsports.net/Pics/Jordan/JJNose3.JPG

http://www.lawmotorsports.net/Pics/Jordan/JJNose4.JPG

http://www.lawmotorsports.net/Pics/Jordan/JJNose5.JPG

[michaelmosty]

I prefer the fact that it doesn't say you can remove the valve cap from your wheels.

This rules issue has always been an awkward subject IMO. I have always heard that the rules need to stay as simple as possible and not add extra fluff.
My theory is that if it is unclear for 1 individual now then the liklihood of it being unclear to another individual in the future is great and it should be addressed. There was a discussion on the national board a year or two ago about SN99 Mach 1 hoods. The Mach 1 is legal but the forced air portion is not. Fine, you remove the forced air part and now have a hole in the hood. Is this hole in the hood legal or do you need to cover it? I can't freakin remember the outcome and I'm sure other new SN99 guys might have the same question at some point in the future but it isn't in the rules anywhere. Bueler? Bueler?

[mitchntx]

See ... another reason why Fords have an advantage.

Only modification a GM can do is add a restrictor plate.

Fords get TQ arms and cams and heads and transmissions and fender flares and shock laden spoilers and forearm length wings and ....

[Mrs. Crumpacker]

Don't forget the flux capacitor...Fords need those to jump through the space/time continuum in order to win races ;)

[Crumpacker]

Don't forget the flux capacitor...Fords need those to jump through the space/time continuum in order to win races ;)

Damn it Darcie! You're gonna get my FC outlawed!!

[Fbody383]

Don't forget the flux capacitor...Fords need those to jump through the space/time continuum in order to win races ;) Yeah, but how often can a Ford get up to 88 mph?

Jerry, nice example of character.

And I'll add that those of you that give your time to serve as class directors and officials and licensing guys and race directors and tech, etc. do a great job and don't get enough credit ~ especially when trying to keep the show fair and emotions in check.

Best race group around.

[mitchntx]

Yeah, but how often can a Ford get up to 88 mph?



Nuttin' but net ...

[Al Fernandez]

Tech bulletin added to the national site regarding radiator shrouding. Thanks to all involved for being men enough to discuss this in the open. Personally I am looking forward to learning and collaborating on a revision to rules regarding what goes on between the bumper cover and the frame. Its apparent that silence is not enough. I'm fully on board with figuring out easy alternatives to expensive or out of production parts, as well as to resolving chronic problems, but I am concerned about opening the door for those with very good skills or very fat wallets to generate an advantage. I'm sure with the brain power you guys bring to the table we'll get to the right spot.

[ShadowBolt]

Tech bulletin added to the national site regarding radiator shrouding. Thanks to all involved for being men enough to discuss this in the open. Personally I am looking forward to learning and collaborating on a revision to rules regarding what goes on between the bumper cover and the frame. Its apparent that silence is not enough. I'm fully on board with figuring out easy alternatives to expensive or out of production parts, as well as to resolving chronic problems, but I am concerned about opening the door for those with very good skills or very fat wallets to generate an advantage. I'm sure with the brain power you guys bring to the table we'll get to the right spot.


My front end parts are way less that what Mitch was saying his are. It cost me about $200.00 for all new parts on the front but that's without paint. I don't understand why we would not want some kind of nerf bars (or something) behind every piece of sheet metal we can. One hit to a quarter panel could cost more to fix than the car is worth. If a piece of bar or something like I made could save that quarter panel so that maybe just some sheet metal work and a re-paint saves the car then what is wrong with that? We would still have rules about contact and if we enforce them no one is going to use a part like my front bumper support as a weapon.......at least he is not going to be able to do that and stay in the series.


JJ

[Rob Liebbe]

If I had sheet metal reinforcement that minimized contact damage I wouldn't be so careful in traffic. Just think about that theory.

".......at least he is not going to be able to do that and stay in the series." Hmmm - you sure about that?

[ShadowBolt]

If I had sheet metal reinforcement that minimized contact damage I wouldn't be so careful in traffic. Just think about that theory.

".......at least he is not going to be able to do that and stay in the series." Hmmm - you sure about that?



Rob WHO?

JJ

[ShadowBolt]

If I had sheet metal reinforcement that minimized contact damage I wouldn't be so careful in traffic. Just think about that theory.

".......at least he is not going to be able to do that and stay in the series." Hmmm - you sure about that?

But if the person pays a high enough price for contact.....


JJ

[GlennCMC70]

....then perhaps it will deter any and all contact.
Instead of those who can afford an external cage vs those who can't.

The price to pay for contact need to be high.

[Casey_SS]

I know this happens on its own from time to time but I would be in favor of a rule stating that in cases of at-fault contact, the liable driver is obligated to go to the other person's house, help them fix it, and split the cost within x time frame of the incident. It's admittedly a tough thing to mandate, life will get in the way, etc., etc. but the concept seems pretty fair to me and should increase both the deterrent factor and comradery within the group. Merely stripping points is a lot easier for officials to manage but doesn't come close to "making things right". If we really want to reduce contact, I can't think of a better way than making the at-fault guy put some real skin in the game.

[Alien]

Casey, I know that a lot of the contact that resulted in damage that I've witnessed (where it was blatantly one drivers fault), it's already very common to hear the phase, what can I do to help fix this? The offer alone (to me) is huge in my books, meaning it's not just passed off as well, that's racing. The offer is truely genuine. Mandating it takes that away. Splitting (or paying in full) the cost of a fender or door isn't that big a deal. But what if the contact results in a totaled car? Suspension is a punishment, but putting the at fault driver on the hook for a min of $4k+ is way too harsh. I already carry a big enough buffer between myself and Carley's car as it is...

[Casey_SS]

Hmm...good points Gary. I agree financial limits would need to be placed on it somehow - everyone is in different situations at different times and the intent certainly isn't to make it overly harsh. The flip side though is that the guy who's car got totaled through no fault of his own has no choice in the matter. That's pretty harsh. Now admittedly, we all accept that risk as part of racing but I still think some liability in the form of time, work, or money (precious commodities to all of us) would be more of a deterrent than "administrative punishments" like a longer suspension or loss of more points.

Surely I'm not the first person to ever think of this though and as you pointed out, the slew of unintended consequences is probably the reason it wasn't implemented a long time ago. If the typical behavior is as you described, maybe it's not a problem which needs solving...I haven't been close enough to those situations to know how they tend to play out after the fact. I mainly just reacted to Glenn's comment that the price of contact should be high....sounded like a nail begging for a hammer ;)

[Alien]

I prefer the fact that it doesn't say you can remove the valve cap from your wheels.

7.31 Wheels/Tires
7.31.1 Wheels may be of any construction or material but must weigh 16 pounds or more.
Actually it does :D You can even run them without the valve cores if you want.

[David Love AI27]

See ... another reason why Fords have an advantage.

Only modification a GM can do is add a restrictor plate.

Fords get TQ arms and cams and heads and transmissions and fender flares and shock laden spoilers and forearm length wings and ....


Don't forget about the 50 lbs....