Guns

[mitchntx]

Who here likes to shoot?

Talked a bit with Nick R. and Steve. And have been chatting off on and on with others many here may or may not know.

I haven't shot a gun in 20 years, but am looking forward to going through a few rounds.

I've had a 12, 20 and 410 shotguns forever and my dad gave me a Llama 357 amd 380, as well as a few black powder rifles and hand guns. Oh and a cannon.

I recently purchased this ...

http://lawmotorsports.net/Pics/Mitch/Guns/Ruger22_45.jpg


Jones-ing to go to a range and try it out.

Steve has me convinced I need a AR style 223.

[MPHoldway]

I have an H&K 9mm. We always have a ton of fun just plinking at a target with an old .22; ammo is much cheaper...

[marshall_mosty]

Mitch,
A friend of mine had a Ruger .22 target pistol that we would take to the range after exams during college. Nothing better than a $6 range fee and $10 for a metric crapload of long rifle rounds to knock down sillhouettes all day... The only thing that would have made it better was beer, but I don't think that would have been accepted very well. :)

[Casey_SS]

I've got a 20ga. hallway gun that's fun to take skeet shooting once in a while....there's a pretty cool place in Austin called Capital City Trap & Skeet. Kinda like a golf course with guns. You just walk around on trails to different stations and shoot at stuff. Much different than paper targets at the range but that's fun once in a while too. Gets damn expensive with anything bigger than a .22 though. My boss jumped on the AR15 bandwagon a while back and I get to shoot that once in a while. It's fun and all but I'm pretty sure he spent more buying and shooting that thing last year than I did on tires and brakes combined :shock:

[Boudy]

Good choice Mitch. You'll enjoy a your .22 plinker way more than anything else. Mags are easy to load and ammo is cheap. Nothing like sending rounds down range until you're tired and realizing you've only burned $12 worth of ammo.

Big bore's are cool but even though I usually go to the range with a .40, 9mm, and .22 I end up spending the most time with the .22. The .40 feels like practice while the .22 is just fun.

To maximize you range enjoyment, pick up 5 or 6 extra magazines. They're like $20 or less for your Ruger. It's frustrating as hell to stop and load every 10 rounds, especially at a range that will allow double taps and rapid fire.

One more thing, .22's are picky eaters so don't buy bulk ammo until you find the brand that yours likes.

Boudy

[mitchntx]

Good choice Mitch. You'll enjoy a your .22 plinker way more than anything else. Mags are easy to load and ammo is cheap. Nothing like sending rounds down range until you're tired and realizing you've only burned $12 worth of ammo.

Boudy

Yeah, it's time for something different.

[Rob Liebbe]

Al took me to the range once. He brought a 45 semi auto and a .357 (?) hammerless pistol. Both were fun and loud and cool sounding.

I brought a .22 semi-auto camping rifle. When I shot the first clip, everyone at the indoor range stopped what they were doing and looked to see who brought the cap gun. It was a lot of fun. I've shot apples with it and my kids set up video cameras to catch the carnage.

My dad had a .22 Ruger pistol when I was young. The damn thing sounded like a cannon. It was fun too.

[BlueFirePony]

Mitch let's go shooting sometime for sure.
We usually go to the ranges in Garland (indoor and outdoor depending on if we want to shoot the long guns or not) and a friend of ours is on the board at a range in Denton.

My wife and daughter shoot .380 ....the men folk go up from there ;)
Typically we go to the range with an assortment.
Kyri and my oldest son Chris prefer to shoot clay - Kyri's pretty handy with the long guns too.
My youngest son Cameron ("Camo") and I prefer the long guns and the girls switch between pistols and clay.

Camo just bought a 1924 Mosin Nagant - he's been searching for just the "right one" for years...the Top Shot show made it harder as it was a popular rifle on that show...but we went to the Fort Worth show a few weeks back and sure enough among all the 1940's was one 1924. Damn accurate gun almost a hundred years later.

Now that we've mainly settled on a couple of calibers our next purchase is a reloader :)

[Nick]

You'll have a lot of cheap fun with the 22/45. I'm looking for one myself (so I can stop borrowing Chuck's).
How about a range day the weekend after Hallett... outdoor at Alpine (http://www.alpinerange.com/) or indoor at Lone Star (http://www.lonestargunsgallerygear.com/).

[edrock96GT]

I like to shoot. Got my own AR, too. I'd love to find a range that allows double tapping and rapid fire. :D

[y5e06]

i shoot a bunch: .38 spc, .357 mag, 9mm luger, 9x23mm, .45, .223, .30-06, 7.5swiss, .303 brit, 7.62x54R, 8mm mauser and more.
I'm a wheel man (revolvers) and old school WWI & WWII vintage stuff more than anything but I have a black rifle & .22 also...
.22LR plinkers are excellent training tools. cheap fun. Rugers are great, but so are the browning buckmark's if you're out shopping.
I reload a lot (see above list) other wise shooting that much would get too expensive.
along that note... if you don't keep your brass I'd be willing to take it!
search for 'idpa'. WAY more fun that standing at a firing line.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjC4KsiLmWE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9zcYje1bWc&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6gF5XLNTCQ&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
i ain't fast, but it is FUN (oh wait, racing or idpa?...)


if you believe in your rights you should check into joining the NRA or even the TSRA
https://www.tsra.com/

what the hay, one more link to add... if anyone is interested, 9mm for sale
http://texaschlforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=45227

[AllZWay]

I have a .22 semi-auto rifle that is hard to beat for just general target shooting.

I have a 20 guage single shot and a 12 guage pump shotgun that I used shoot skeet with. I haven't actually shot any of my guns in few years though.

I also have a .32 pistol. Some Italian gun, but can't remember the brand right now that is fun to shoot as well. One of my closest buddies that is a Dallas cop has a massive arsenal of weapons and occassionally we will go shooting on his parents 200 acres and shoot all kinds of guns and that is a blast.

[michaelmosty]

I shot my first rifle last weekend (.30-06) and that was very nice. We also shot clays with a 12 and 16 gauge and messed around with a .357 and 45.

I don't own a gun but have fun shooting.

[mitchntx]

The 12G is a Remmington 870 DPS issue. Belonged a good friend of my Dad's who passed away and firends bought it from the state as a gift.
The 20G is a Remmington auto ... 570? ... my uncle gave to my brother 25 years ago. Probably hasn't had 30 rounds ran through it.
The 410 is a single shot, break-over with a hammer by Iver Johnson Arms. My best guess using the internet is that it was made in the teens. It was given to my grandpa by my great grandpa.
I also have a 22 bolt action rifle that my dad "altered" to be able to get it in and out of the truck window easier.



You'll have a lot of cheap fun with the 22/45. I'm looking for one myself (so I can stop borrowing Chuck's).
How about a range day the weekend after Hallett... outdoor at Alpine (http://www.alpinerange.com/) or indoor at Lone Star (http://www.lonestargunsgallerygear.com/).

Indoors sounds more appealing these days ... Let me know what your schedule is. I'm pretty flexible.
Be easy on me ... I'm a newb all over again.

[Nick]

I like to shoot. Got my own AR, too. I'd love to find a range that allows double tapping and rapid fire. :D

Lone Star in Weatherford has a Class III license and rents out full auto weapons by the hour, IIRC.
We shot an Uzi there a few weeks ago.

[Nick]

Be easy on me ... I'm a newb all over again.

We'll talk at Hallett. :)

[marshall_mosty]

My dad has a Winchester Model 1906. Amazing gun for varment hunting and general close range target work. You can throw a thousand rounds through it without missing a beat. Holds 15 shorts, 12 Longs, 11 Long Rifles... very fun gun. It was an anniversary gift from my grandmother to my grandfather in 1924...

My favorite thing about that gun is the ability to hold the trigger down and "pump" the magazine dry. Not good for accuracy, but fun as hell!

[Mrs. Crumpacker]

We have guns and love shooting them...

I have a Springfield XD-40 tactical. We inherited a 12g single barrel and a Savage .250 from my grandpa's estate. Sam have a British 303, 30-30, .22 rifle and pistol, and a few others that I can't remember.

[mitchntx]

Thanks to Nick and his dad, Steve and Chuck B. for all your coaching Saturday.

Had a great time and clicked several hundred rounds through my new 22 and Chucks 9mm.
I even shot Steve's rifle. First time I've shot a weapon in 20 years.

I had been reading a lot on the net about Springields XD and XDm .40 and 9mm.
I shot several clips with an XDm 9mm and it'll probably be my next purchase.

I signed up for the CHL class and go through that Saturday.

Thanks again to Nick and Steve for all your coaching and patience.

[Nick]

We had good time also. Your accuracy hasn't suffered at all since your last shot.
I think you'll be happy with an XDm or XD. I have three.
Looking forward to going again.

[nasa-rm]

Sorry we are late to the party. RB and I have and XD 9mm sub compact (nice only at 3" carries well), a XDm 40 and a really cool 1950's single shot 22 Winchester rifle. We like them all. If you can find an XDm vs the XD, check out the feel on them. I like the changeable backstrap for mini-me hands like ours or easily switch to the large for you. Plus a few other things are just more refined.

[jeffburch]

Hallway gun?
That's not a hallway gun ;))

jb

[mitchntx]

Lol ...

[Wirtz]

In case anyone in the great white north wants to check out a competitive multigun event, I will be running the Fallen Brethren match near Jacksboro this weekend. The event runs Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. This is the last National level event for the year. Free to spectate, but I warn you, kinda like autocross: a blast to do it, but after watching it for a little bit, you get your fill. If you do want to come out, just bring eye and ear protection and check out what I think is the most fun competitive shooting sport.

Give me a call or IM if you think you might head out so I can keep an eye out for you.

Event details here:
http://fb3gun.com/

Jeff

[cobra132]

Ruger Redhawk 44 SS with 2x scope, Nickel plated S&W 44(won in a poker game), 9mm Beretta, colt 38s, S&W 38s, Ruger Mk 1 22, 50 cal percussion cap pistol, 410 single, 12g Ithaca featherlight, 22 Hornet, AR15 Hbar, WW2 jap and german rifles. The wife and I are scheduled to get our consealed permits in 2 weeks. Chicks dig guns.

[cobra132]

"concealed" sorry

[Crumpacker]

... The wife and I are scheduled to get our consealed permits in 2 weeks. Chicks dig guns.

Darcie got her CHL before me..

She carries a DEagle .50

http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af110/samcrumpacker/other/Darcie50.jpg

[Crumpacker]

Event details here:
http://fb3gun.com/

Jeff

Too far to attend, otherwise I'd be there! Sounds awesome. Let us know how you do..

[cobra132]

Nice!

[Al Fernandez]

So Jeff, did you kick everyone's ass and are your firearms as spotless as the camaro? :)

Darcie...you should post that picture at T&S. You know, to keep the hooligans from moulthing off to you.

[David Love AI27]

So Jeff, did you kick everyone's ass and are your firearms as spotless as the camaro? :)

Darcie...you should post that picture at T&S. You know, to keep the hooligans from moulthing off to you.

Al, I'm guessing that you don't know mama Crumpacker very well.... nobody mouths off to Darcie

[mitchntx]

Darcie got her CHL before me..

She carries a DEagle .50


She's obviously over compensating ...


My latest:

Smith Model 25 - 8" barrell - 45LC

http://www.lawmotorsports.net/mw/SW_25-5_45LC_8_01.jpg

1911 in 45

http://www.lawmotorsports.net/mw/Spring_1911.jpg



And for the zombies ...

Mossberg 12G 9 rounder

http://www.lawmotorsports.net/mw/Moss_590_Nickel.jpg


Saiga 7.62x39

http://www.lawmotorsports.net/mw/Saiga_762x39_1.jpg

[mitchntx]

In case anyone in the great white north wants to check out a competitive multigun event, I will be running the Fallen Brethren match near Jacksboro this weekend. The event runs Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. This is the last National level event for the year. Free to spectate, but I warn you, kinda like autocross: a blast to do it, but after watching it for a little bit, you get your fill. If you do want to come out, just bring eye and ear protection and check out what I think is the most fun competitive shooting sport.

Give me a call or IM if you think you might head out so I can keep an eye out for you.

Event details here:
http://fb3gun.com/

Jeff

How did you do?

[edrock96GT]

This is the only one I have right now.

[Crumpacker]

Nice collections guys - and sweet couch mounted projector Eddie!

[Wirtz]

A couple of weeks ago there was a National level 3 gun match here in Central Texas. Three days with 12 timed stages, over 430 shooters from all over the country including all the hot shots in the sport (but they still let chumps like me come out and play).

Anyway, you guys know I'm always tinkering with in-car cameras, so this was no exception. If your interested, this is the video mainly from my hat-cam ;) The match is a mix of pistol (from 0 to 45 yards), shotgun (with targets for birdshot, buckshot, and slugs), and rifle (from 0 to 480 yards).

Check it out if your not yet ready to start your work week, but maybe use headphones in the office...
http://vimeo.com/40986732

Jeff

[y5e06]

picked up an Armalite AR10TNF .308 in green a couple weeks ago. no pics yet. still need a base & optics.
1st pic is mfg supplied photo. 20" stainless national match barrel, 2 stage trigger, yada yada yada.

I already have 150 pieces of brass cleaned, trimmed, & prepped for it. plan on trying Nosler 168gr & Hornady A-Max 168gr with new CFE223 powder to start.

Snapped a crappy ipad pic of my wheel collection the other day, 2nd pic

top left to bottom right
Smith 64 round butt 4"
Smith 686 357 4"
Smith 64 square butt 4"
Smith .32 hand ejector i-frame, 1903ish. was my grand mothers (I added the wood grips. I-frames are small)
Dan wesson 15 357 4"
Taurus 66 357 3"
COLT Officers Model Special 6" - LAST one made in '51. used at St.Louis PD competition piece. Dad has identical one, only 6 units older.
Smith 638 snub 1 7/8"
Nagant 7.62


3rd pic is a 3" 65 I have on order (smith 64 4" square but, above, will be for sale due to replacement)

[ShadowBolt]

When the "have-nots" come for what the "haves" have, staying away form CMC racers may be a good idea.


JJ

[Alien]

http://vimeo.com/40986732

Jeff
Anyone else have flashbacks to Duke Nukem 3D and Doom? I know I was waiting for a chainsaw stage.
“It’s time to kick ass and chew bubblegum…and I’m all out of gum.”

Very cool video and some impressive distances!

[mitchntx]

Nice shootin' there Tex. What optics are you using on the AR?


Had a small gun show this weekend in Glen Rose.

I took two handguns with me

Smith 25-5 in 45LC w/ 8" barrell
Ruger SR9c
small wad of cash

I left with

Savage 512 O/U 12g unfired
Iver Johansen single shot 410 rough but a solid shooter
Beretta 92A1 in 40

http://lawmotorsports.net/mw/Baretta_92A1_40.jpg

and a bigger wad of cash than when i started.


I currently have 5 AR style rifles ... recently threw down on a 90s vintage bushmaster M4A1 sporter from a co-worker's father-in-law who is retiring.

And most recently I found a Draco and Tec9. What a pair of stupid guns but a load of fun to shoot.

[cobra132]

I think that AI/CMC Texas needs to formalize a dooms day plan in the event of a national catastrophe. We need to establish rendezvous points and escape routes etc. We clearly have the brains, brawn, machines, fire power and genetic material to save the planet. And I am not kidding.

[jeffburch]

There's no escaping.
You is where you is.
We are already under Marshall law.
Just look up the executive orders signed.
Look for grope-a-dope check points on a highway near you soon.


jb
infowars.com

[mitchntx]

I was considering an underground bunker made from a shipping container. Can be done on the cheap.

Then I thought about the consequences of going below surface and then being whack-a-mole trying to get out.

I'm 3 miles from the highest point in Hood county ... hmmmm

[jeffburch]

Not even my stash of potassium iodine can save your ass ;)

jb

[ShadowBolt]

There's no escaping.
You is where you is.
We are already under Marshall law.
Just look up the executive orders signed.
Look for grope-a-dope check points on a highway near you soon.


jb
infowars.com

Wonder what the founding fathers would think about what we have become?

I can't go with all the stuff at infowars but I agree with most of it.
JJ

[mitchntx]

Not even my stash of potassium iodine can save your ass ;)

jb

And if what you are prepping for occurs, neither will yours. ;)

[mitchntx]

I think that AI/CMC Texas needs to formalize a dooms day plan in the event of a national catastrophe. We need to establish rendezvous points and escape routes etc. We clearly have the brains, brawn, machines, fire power and genetic material to save the planet. And I am not kidding.


It wouldn't work, Frank. Half the folks would complain that they were at a disadvantage. :p

[marshall_mosty]

It wouldn't work, Frank. Half the folks would complain that they were at a disadvantage. :p
AI guys guns are bigger
4th gen CMC driver's guns have larger clips
S197 guys are forced to only shoot .22's
FOX body guys are trying to save weight and use ceramic barrels...

What are we coming to?

[David Love AI27]

AI guys guns are bigger
4th gen CMC driver's guns have larger clips
S197 guys are forced to only shoot .22's
FOX body guys are trying to save weight and use ceramic barrels...

What are we coming to?

3rd gens are given no consideration at all...

[BlueFirePony]

AI guys guns are bigger
4th gen CMC driver's guns have larger clips
S197 guys are forced to only shoot .22's
FOX body guys are trying to save weight and use ceramic barrels...

What are we coming to?
S197 guys shoot .40 and everyone insists that we should downsize to .380 for parity ;)
Mitch is right...again ;)

As an aside , I've been dropping hints to the family about the Sig 229 I want ;)

[mitchntx]

It won't be a nuke, financial collapse or even EMP strike ... it'll be zombies.

Bring it, bitches ...

http://www.lawmotorsports.net/mw/762x39.jpg

http://www.lawmotorsports.net/mw/ammo_412.jpg

[edrock96GT]

Eventually the ammo will run out.

There's only one thing that will get you through the zombie apocalypse... :D

[mitchntx]

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g320/mistershipwreck/Website Stuff/ZombiePieChart.jpg

[cobra132]

We'll all meet at Mitch's place.

[AllZWay]

We'll all meet at Mitch's place.

No kidding... Warren Motorsports has become Warren Compound. :D

[Al Fernandez]

Dude, love the claymore Eddie. Jeff, the video isnt loading, I just get a black screen :(
Mitch's is a little far, I might have to simply stock 20 gals of gas to make sure I can get there. Easier than stocking 10k rounds though.

[Alien]

Al, I have issues with some Vimeo videos on my home computer too. Did some digging when I was uploading the 2011 year end video, and there isn't a good fix. Some fixes work for some people. Mine shows nothing but a white screen for the YE and Wirtz's vid. BUUUUT, they will play on my home computer in Couch Mode. Work computer has no issues.

[Pranav]

Any of you Houston guys head to the gun range in the near future, let me know. I've been slacking on purchasing my first firearm for years now, and ought to start learning/collecting before the current political climate *ahem* changes.

[Al Fernandez]

Video worked at work (go figure). Awesome stuff Jeff!! Love the shotgun action since its so easy to see that you've hit lol

Heading down to the big show at Reliant next weekend if anyone's interested...

[AllZWay]

You definitely do not want to mess with Jeff if he has a shotgun in his hands. That looked like fun event.

[Crumpacker]

It won't be a nuke, financial collapse or even EMP strike ... it'll be zombies.

Bring it, bitches ...


My plan is pretty simple:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ZHMa0DqWmG8/TpVT5V_RcCI/AAAAAAAABxs/bxSgoXJrOf4/s1600/Zombie-treadmil-defense.jpg

[BlueFirePony]

I'll take up a spot on the 30ft perch (aka chimney) with a couple hundred cross-bow bolts. After each wave I'll send out Sparky the robot retriever to collect and re-stock. I got the Survival level all figured out ;)

[Alien]

Any of you guys want a shotgun heatshield?

Just bought one from a local store. Asked for a Mossberg (brand) Heatshield (which happens to be on backorder) and they ordered me a (ATI Brand) heatshield for a Mossberg. Wouldn't take it back.

Paid $32 for it. Will take $20 (or make me an offer) delivered to Hallett.

http://www.shotgun500tactical.com/ATI-Heat-Shield-For-Tactical-Shotgun-p/ati-shs1300-.htm

Steel, says it fits most 12GA Pumps, Mossberg 500/535/590/835, Remington 870, Winchester 1200/1300, Maverick 88, etc

[mitchntx]

hmmm ....

http://img.izifunny.com/pics/20111027/640/zombie-defense._1.jpg

[Al Fernandez]

Holy shit! I'm going to Mitch's!!
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/05/robert-farago/the-zombie-apocalypse-is-here/#more-140457

[MikeP99Z]

That's a cool house.

[jdlingle]

I just hope its the slow walking dead zombies and not those fast crazy ones from 28 days later!

[BryanL]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/31/alexander-kinyua-kujoe-agyei-kodie-ate-brain-heart-roommate-maryland_n_1560149.html?ref=crime&icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl9%7Csec1_lnk2%26pLid%3D166000

[Al Fernandez]

Why would any Texan read the huffington post?

[ShadowBolt]

Why would any Texan read the huffington post?
I agree. Left wing Pinko's.


JJ

[BryanL]

Just a link I saw-don't know where it came from or care what the huffington post is. Funny coming from a a porsche racer californian-you need to change your avatar.

[y5e06]

Why would any Texan read the huffington post?
Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer.

[David Love AI27]

Why would any Texan read the huffington post?

Adriana Huffington's personal pilot lives in Tomball and is a very good friend of mine... Just another piece of useless information

[Al Fernandez]

Californian? I'll have you know I lived in three different countries and six different states in this country before I decided Texas was the place for me. You can call me a slow learner, but not a commiefornian :P

[BlueFirePony]

You can call me a slow learner, but not a commiefornian :P
You can still call him a Cake Eater though ;)

[Wirtz]

The big multigun match I shot last month had camera crews from NBC running around filming for a show called 3 Gun Nation. They put this trailer out. All the footage is from the match weekend. At the end of the match, they had a living history museum (link: http://www.pacificwarmuseum.org/index.asp) perform an assault on a fixed bunker.

Check it out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=sOEeeO-K8pI

[David Love AI27]

Good stuff... I guess the point is if JW shows up at a Shoot Out... stay out of the line of fire...

Miss you Jeff... get back "on track"...

Jason and I were talking, tonight, about how quickly the white hood would show in the mirror... (inverts of course)

[mitchntx]

Some more gun love ...

http://lawmotorsports.net/mw/Python1.jpg


1978 Colt Python

[rpoz27]

Some more gun love ...

http://lawmotorsports.net/mw/Python1.jpg


1978 Colt Python

Nice score and very clean/unused. Bet that cost you about two race weekends in that condition?

[mitchntx]

At least a set of new shaved Toyos.

But after a couple weekends, I can still use the Colt.

[Rob Liebbe]

I shot a Colt .357 similar to that this past weekend, seems like the barrel was shorter. Damn loud piece of iron. We had been shooting a variety of shotguns and .22's with earplugs without any issues. The first shot from the Colt with the same earplugs and my right ear went "blank" for about an hour.

Introduced my 9 year old son to my Armalite AR7 .22 survival rifle and an M4 .22 as well. Let's just say there were no turtles in that pond that were safe from at least being really annoyed by him. Turns out he is a pretty good shot.

[ShadowBolt]

Some more gun love ...

http://lawmotorsports.net/mw/Python1.jpg


1978 Colt Python

DPS carried those back in the day. Replaced them with the Sig 45.
I bought my dads Colt then sold it and bought his Sig when he retired.

JJ

[rpoz27]

DPS carried those back in the day. Replaced them with the Sig 45.
I bought my dads Colt then sold it and bought his Sig when he retired.

JJ

Sig 220 in .45 is my carry weapon. Misty will be carrying a Sig P250 in. 45 as soon as we find time to. Get her renewed. Great guns.

I bought a Taurus .44 magnum wheel gun last year. Fun but loud and painful!

[ShadowBolt]

A little info on why the Texas DPS went the direction they did.

The Texas DPS had long and very successful experience with the .357 magnum cartridge in 125-grain and 140/145-grain jhp bullets for many, many years. When time came to transition the entire agency over to semi-autos from revolvers, they were in something of a quandary. They knew the sort of performance they wanted, and after a brief use of the then-recommended 147-grain 9mm load, they opted to go with the old reliable 230-grain .45 ACP in new Sig-Sauer service pistols.

They weren't satisfied with the .45 ACP, though, despite its hallowed place in the history of the Texas Rangers and other old-time border lawmen. If you'll be patient with me, I'll try to explain why.

LE agencies aren't so much interested in "killing" people as much as in "how long" a bad guy can stay on his feet and in the fight after taking a well-placed upper torso hit or two. The old timers told me that "every dead man has 10 seconds" on his feet after you shoot him. At least all too often it seemed that way. Especially in the old days when we were limited to .38 Special lead round-nose duty ammo. Even if you "kill" the guy, he can still stay on his feet and dangerous for up to 10 seconds before collapsing...and that was the minimum I was taught to expect. As you know, sometimes it's a lot longer than 10 seconds.

The drive of the research I've done over the years of my LE career was to try to find a weapon that would eliminate as many of those "10 seconds" as I could manage. The folks at the Texas DPS look at it the same way, as do other agencies and citizen defensive shooters. Among all of us, we noticed that (as far as handguns went) you needed to be using at least something on the level of a .357 magnum revolver.

When Texas DPS adopted Sig-Sauers in 230-grain .45 ACP, they found it to be a really good "killer". That is, they were killing damn near everybody they shot. My friends on LAPD, LASD and San Diego (city) PD tell me much the same about their 147-grain 9mm issue loads. They're indeed "killing" a lot of people with it.

But the Texas DPS guys weren't at ease about their .45 ACP's because the bad guys were staying on their feet and still fighting, or running away into culverts, or between houses, too often after being hit really well in the upper torso. It was taking too long for the BG's to succumb to their .45 ACP service ammo when compared to their institutional memories of the .357 magnum ammo. Again...the .45 ACP's were "killing" people. They were just letting the BG's have too many of those "dead man's 10 seconds" we spoke of.

In a meeting at the DPS academy, it was decided to test the then-new .357 Sig cartridge. After the .357 Sig guns and ammo passed the testing, the gun/ammo combo was issued to all incoming trainee academy classes. It was observed that trainee marksmanship scores went up across the board compared to what they'd been with the .45 ACP. In time, in-service officers were transitioned to the .357 Sig pistols and cartridge. Soon shooting reports started to flow in involving the .357 Sig.

My friend keeps up on officer-involved shootings all across the state involving the DPS troopers as well as other local LE agencies who are using .357 Sigs, piggy-backing off the State of Texas bid price. He tells me that with the .357 Sig in their P226 service pistols they are getting velocities of of around 1,360 fps from lots of Gold Dot ammo. One lot was high at 1,386 fps, and he recalls another of 1,344...but that's the lowest. In the field, DPS troopers are tangling with homicidal BG's and the BG's are going down conclusively within about 2 or 3 seconds of sustaining an upper chest hit or two from a DPS .357 Gold Dot bullet. This parallels the performance of the .357 magnum revolvers, and that's about as good as you can do with a handgun that an ordinary cop can pick up and shoot well.

Gotta shave off as many of those "10 seconds" as we can...and the .357 Sig seems to be doing the best job so far for Texas DPS. It has adequate penetration with the added velocity that helps to make the BG know he's been shot. We've learned it's just as important to attack your adversary's fighting mind-set with your well-placed gunfire, as it is to attack the internal structures of his body.

As you know, there are a lot of people who are taken out of a fight for psychological reasons, just as often as for internal damage from gunshot wounds. Medical people have commented often about that, saying that half or more of the time people quit the fight for psychological reason instead of physical ones. We'd be ignoring an important part of the survival dynamic if we didn't give some thought to what wrecks an attacker's fighting mind-set, also. It appears that, at least in Texas, the .357 Sig is filling the bill for a defensive handgun caliber until something better comes along.

Hope that helps.

[BlueFirePony]

Misty will be carrying a Sig P250 in. 45 as soon as we find time to. ..
Matt/Misty, I love the Sig's (still want a 229) but depending on how you plan to carry have you considered the Bersa 380? I personally think its a better carry weapon than the P250 - lighter, smaller, less recoil and found it more accurate right out of the bag w/ or w/o double tap - I've talked to several and they say at worse the 380 and 250 are equally accurate ... The 380 is half the price of a 250 though. After the large pink b-day present, not sure if $ is a concern ;) In the end its what you are comfortable shooting.

The Bersa has some nice safety features for transport (luggage, etc.) as well. Just a thought.

[BlueFirePony]

As you know, there are a lot of people who are taken out of a fight for psychological reasons, just as often as for internal damage from gunshot wounds. Medical people have commented often about that, saying that half or more of the time people quit the fight for psychological reason instead of physical ones. We'd be ignoring an important part of the survival dynamic if we didn't give some thought to what wrecks an attacker's fighting mind-set, also. It appears that, at least in Texas, the .357 Sig is filling the bill for a defensive handgun caliber until something better comes along.

Hope that helps.
Just the sound of a 357SIG impacting 6 inches from an attacker would definately have a psychological impact and the round has the performance . In particular the 357SIG carries the lower recoil of a 9MM in a .40 casing so it has a flatter trajectory (largely relevant at distances > 20ft) with better penetration. So for LEOs it makes a ton of sense - the velocity and weight of the 357SIG also are importent to LEOS since their encounters can expand from 5-10ft to 20ft+ - not often the case for civilians (average 7-10ft).

One data point wrapped in the "10 second" gap was the survival rate on first shot hit vs first shot miss which is similar between LEOs and civilians. An FBI study indicated that survival rate for LEO's dropped from 95% if the first shot was a hit vs 45% if the first shot was a miss. The accuracy of the 357SIG improved LEO percentages over the .45 and the .357 magnum which was a similar driver for adopting 9mm in other law enforcement weapons and also the adoption of .380 for civilians in some countries (e.g. Argentina).
If you don't hit on the first 3 rounds your chance of hitting on your fourth is almost nill and if you don't hit on the first, the sound of the impact may not matter. Have a gun you can hit with your first two or three shots at 7-15 ft 100% of the time? That's the gun you use. Penetration, expansion, and psychological impact don't matter if you miss your first three shots (except negatively if you hit an unintended victim).
Slightly extended topic-hijack:
Another important data point is that the ratio of officer/assailant and civilian/assailant has been steadily increasing since the 90's with "mob" mentality quickly becoming a "norm" in the last decade - for home defense get a scatter gun.
For a carry situation you would do well to carry a close quarter instrument like mace or a knife AND for all situations take some defensive hand-to-hand training (Jui-jistu, Kempo). Kempo in particular teaches tactics for multiple attackers as early as white-belt....I had 10 years of JJ and other martial arts before I took my first Kempo instruction and I was amazed at how much I learned about assessing mental/physical state of multiple assailants and applying that from a defensive/survival posture - we all think we are bad asses but nothing replaces training when you are in a fight and your brain is scrambling for solutions.

Back to Pure Guns ;)

[edrock96GT]

In particular the 357SIG carries the lower recoil of a 9MM...

I had a Glock 31 for a while and that thing kicked like a mule! Not as heavy a recoil as a .45 but a lot sharper. For comparison, a .45 is like putting your hand on the back of a truck as it backs up as opposed to someone punching you in the hand.
Still, not too much recoil and accurate as hell (I hit a squirrel at 25m), has the knockdown power of a .45 with the velocity and range of a 9mm from a .40 cartridge necked down to fit a .38 bullet. It's like a mini rifle. :D

[Wirtz]

While all the cool kids were out racing cars this past weekend, I was at the 2012 Fallen Brethren 3 Gun match, just down the road as it turns out, near Jasksboro. In fact, I got to see Wendy, Wade, and Jeff (I think) for a few minutes waiting on dinner one night.

Anyway, video is here if anyone cares to check it out. Now I just need to combine the driving fast and shooting into one event...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGlVZJoyl3I&feature=plcp

[rpoz27]

Now I just need to combine the driving fast and shooting into one event...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGlVZJoyl3I&feature=plcp

count us in! We are hooked and are doing 1 USPSA match a month and one steel shoot per month. Misty's son shot his first steel shoot last weekend at age 11!!! He did great. I'm a little scared of the the 3 gun stuff as I have heard it gets expensive.....as if racing wasn't?! LOL!

[Crumpacker]

Anyway, video is here if anyone cares to check it out. Now I just need to combine the driving fast and shooting into one event...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGlVZJoyl3I&feature=plcp

That looked crazy fun!

I've done a few USDPAs and 1 Steels match now - addicting.