Summer projects

[Casey_SS]

Forum has been a little slow lately so thought I'd post some progress pics of the AIX to AI conversion that's been draining every ounce of sweat out of my body....

Bilstein coilovers (courtesy of Mindy's track car - "Deliverator"), rebuilt lower control arms, Global West uppers...car might actually turn now and stop eating the sidewalls:

http://i1041.photobucket.com/albums/b420/Casey_SS/suspension.jpg

StopTechs (also courtesy of Mindy & Deliverator...I'm officially in the red on marriage credits now:

http://i1041.photobucket.com/albums/b420/Casey_SS/brakes.jpg

New valve springs:

http://i1041.photobucket.com/albums/b420/Casey_SS/springs.jpg

Restrictor plates - hopefully one of these will get me AI legal without major tuning issues...shooting for 3350lbs / 350hp. Dyno day coming soon...witnesses welcome:

http://i1041.photobucket.com/albums/b420/Casey_SS/restrictor.jpg

Complete power distribution redesign & re-wire to fix the bujeezus out of the fuel pump issues I had at Hallett:

http://i1041.photobucket.com/albums/b420/Casey_SS/wiring.jpg

HUGE thanks to Mindy for not only sacrificing the trick parts off her new ride but also correctly installing all the driver side stuff while I screwed around with the other side. Simply amazing. I must have suffered terribly in a past life or something.... Hey, I did replace it all with AIX championship winning parts. Oddly that didn't seem to make a dent in my marriage credit deficit though....

Bunch more little stuff to do but it's coming along nicely...can't wait for ECR!

[way2neary]

Casey,

You're making awesome progress. Glad to see its coming along so quickly. Also, you just got an awesome deal on that car, especially given all those stellar parts you've been able to "borrow."

And, given how well your car will be dialed in, I'm definitely sensing a royal butt whooping at ECR!

[Adam Ginsberg]

You're going to really like the StopTech's. The only downside is you'll have to relearn the braking points at all the tracks you've been to. I've had a set on my car this whole season, and I still haven't made "full" use of them, IMO.

It's nice to go for the pedal, and get the same exact performance time, after time, after time.

[marshall_mosty]

It's nice to go for the pedal, and get the same exact performance time, after time, after time.\
Until your Master Cylinder develops an internal leak... Then it's like you are back on PBR's and street pads (very long pedal)...

I thought I was just overusing the brakes at TWS and Hallett, but after putting the new MC on, it firmed right up!

StopTech's are the bomb. I just stocked my spare pad basket so I don't have to worry about pads for the next 2 seasons.

[jdlingle]

\
Until your Master Cylinder develops an internal leak... Then it's like you are back on PBR's and street pads (very long pedal)...

I thought I was just overusing the brakes at TWS and Hallett, but after putting the new MC on, it firmed right up!

StopTech's are the bomb. I just stocked my spare pad basket so I don't have to worry about pads for the next 2 seasons.

How much life do you get out of your pads Marshall?

[marshall_mosty]

How much life do you get out of your pads Marshall?
Approx 4-5 weekends, depending on the track. Hallett and ECR (I'm told) is more abrasive on pads. However, I hammer them pretty hard wherever I use them...

For reference, I was getting 3 track days out of a set of PBR caliper type pads.

PBR Setup
Lifespan: 3 days
$165/set ($55/day)
$660/season

StopTech Setup
Lifespan: 9 days
$285/set ($32/day)
$384

Savings over 6 weekends a year = $276.

The savings doesn't even consider the better feel of the brakes (think a knob with 1-10 in "1" incriments for the StopTech versus 1-3 in "1" incriments for PBR), and the peace of mind knowing they will be the same corner after corner. Also, it has proved difficult to find the limit of the brakes (Even with ABS).

[Casey_SS]

When is it generally advisable to replace the rotor rings? Hats? Mine were used on the street more than the track and I can feel a pretty good wear lip on both sides of each rotor. They look great though and I'm sure they'll be fine for at least a few weekends. I could never get much of a wear lip at all on C6 rotors before they cracked so this is uncharted territory for me...

[marshall_mosty]

When is it generally advisable to replace the rotor rings? Hats? Mine were used on the street more than the track and I can feel a pretty good wear lip on both sides of each rotor. They look great though and I'm sure they'll be fine for at least a few weekends. I could never get much of a wear lip at all on C6 rotors before they cracked so this is uncharted territory for me...Casey,
I brought my kit used from Jeff Brooks, who had it on his AI car (Maximum Motorsports shop car) for about a season prior to selling it to me 4 years ago. I have two enduros (9.5 hours total) and probably 12 weekends over the course of the last 4 years on the same rings that came with the used set. I've put about 4 sets of pads on the car with the same rotors. All I can say is they wear like iron. I recently caved and got a replacement set of rings as a "just in case". I'm not planning on installing them right now. Maybe for the 2012 or 2013 season.

[BlueFirePony]

Approx 4-5 weekends, depending on the track. Hallett and ECR (I'm told) is more abrasive on pads. However, I hammer them pretty hard wherever I use them...

For reference, I was getting 3 track days out of a set of PBR caliper type pads.

PBR Setup
Lifespan: 3 days
$165/set ($55/day)
$660/season

StopTech Setup
Lifespan: 9 days
$285/set ($32/day)
$384

Savings over 6 weekends a year = $276.

The savings doesn't even consider the better feel of the brakes (think a knob with 1-10 in "1" incriments for the StopTech versus 1-3 in "1" incriments for PBR), and the peace of mind knowing they will be the same corner after corner. Also, it has proved difficult to find the limit of the brakes (Even with ABS).

If you are interested in a few other data points, I am getting between 9-10 days on my pads.
I usually try to get a track day before and a half-full day of testing the Friday of a race weekend...so figure 3 days per weekend so I have info on the stock setup but only TT and DE sessions since I switched to the AP Racing calipers when I started with this group.
Metal Matrix
Lifespan 9-10 days
$260 ($28.90/day at 9days)
$520 for a season

EBC Blue
Lifespan 9 days
$199 ($22.11)$398 for a season
I've only just run the Blue's this year for the first time (MSRC, Hallet and TWS). For an endurance pad they did not last as long as I hoped but they are much cheaper and frankly I like the feel of them. EBC is coming out with a race-only compound in October that I might try next year.

[BlueFirePony]

If you are interested in a few other data points, I am getting between 9-10 days on my pads.
I usually try to get a track day before and a half-full day of testing the Friday of a race weekend...so figure 3 days per weekend so I have info on the stock setup but only TT and DE sessions since I switched to the AP Racing calipers when I started with this group.
Metal Matrix
Lifespan 9-10 days
$260 ($28.90/day at 9days)
$520 for a season

EBC Blue
Lifespan 9 days
$199 ($22.11)$398 for a season
I've only just run the Blue's this year for the first time (MSRC, Hallet and TWS). For an endurance pad they did not last as long as I hoped but they are much cheaper and frankly I like the feel of them. EBC is coming out with a race-only compound in October that I might try next year.

In the spirit of sharing, another couple nuggets of info to factor into my pad wear:
my rotors are slotted AND cross-drilled - Using DB4000 right now.
my car weighs a lot
Really just want slotted rotors but could not find any that fit my $, size, and construction requirements - gonna look around for next year for sure - I've switched back to the stock rotors in the rear since Hallet
Purely anecdotal on my part, but in my experience cross-drilled eat pads much faster that just slotted and are much more prone to cracking.
Both front and rear rotors have cracked substantially well before 1mm of wear.
Also, with proper ducting they don't offer any better cooling.

[Adam Ginsberg]

\
Until your Master Cylinder develops an internal leak... Then it's like you are back on PBR's and street pads (very long pedal)....

Ya know, after 8 seasons of racing on the PBR setup, the ONLY time I ever had a long pedal was at Hallett when I ran out of ATE Super Blue brake fluid, and used the Ford Motorsport stuff. Damn pedal went almost to the floor after just a few laps, forcing me to take it easy.

Once I flushed the entire system, going back to ATE, I never had another problem. It's the only brake fluid I'll use in my car. Period.

[marshall_mosty]

Ya know, after 8 seasons of racing on the PBR setup, the ONLY time I ever had a long pedal was at Hallett when I ran out of ATE Super Blue brake fluid, and used the Ford Motorsport stuff. Damn pedal went almost to the floor after just a few laps, forcing me to take it easy.

Once I flushed the entire system, going back to ATE, I never had another problem. It's the only brake fluid I'll use in my car. Period.I switch between ATE Blue and Amber every other round. Flush a quart through the system and call it a day...

[Adam Ginsberg]

I switch between ATE Blue and Amber every other round. Flush a quart through the system and call it a day...

You flush the brake system every other round? Like, 3 or so times per season?? Are you having pedal problems? Typically, I flush the system at the start of the season, and don't flush it again unless I open it up (change a line, change a caliper, etc).

After PST did a moisture test on the ATE stuff at MSR-C in mid-2006, I realized I was over-flushing the system. The fluid they tested had been in the car a full year, possibly longer, and AJ was shocked that it was in such good condition. That told me everything I needed to know.

[HoustonNW]

Other than moisture, what can happen to brake fluid? Does it wear out like motor oil? Does it get too dirty?

When I bought a set of Carbotech pads for my Mustang they talked me into Castrol SRF. The wet boiling point is so high that I don't really worry about moisture. Is there something else?

[BlueFirePony]

Other than moisture, what can happen to brake fluid? Does it wear out like motor oil? Does it get too dirty?

When I bought a set of Carbotech pads for my Mustang they talked me into Castrol SRF. The wet boiling point is so high that I don't really worry about moisture. Is there something else?

Two seperate points:Point 1: Some mfrs have started to drop brake fluid change from their maintenance schedules, presumably because the fluids today far exceed what will be needed during the warranty period (and they better be right because the damages awarded in law suits involving brakes have been huge!).Point 2:Even well constructed brake systems running poly ether fluids will get contaminated (ambient atmosphere just as often as running in the rain, or abuse) and DOT 4 (including many high performance fluids) actually drop their wet boiling point faster than DOT 3 (sometimes twice as fast) so that with only 1% contamination the boling point can drop as much as a quarter and by half with 3% contamination. So the question IMO is how fast is the contamination occuring.I worked for a company that specialized in extreme use fluids, particularly lubricants (motor and gear oils, etc.) and I spent many a lunch time conversation with the head chemist and VP of R&D...can't remember half of what they told me, but I do remember the conversations about unavoidable contamination of systems using hydroscopic fluids (seals, lines, etc) and that systems should be bled after each extreme use cycle (e.g. after every race weekend) and generally flushed once a year for even well maintained equipment and every time the system is "opened".We did work for the large industrials (Herman the German ring a bell?), DoD, the Bodine's and a Baha race team as well as others so they knew their stuff.Moral to the story...I bleed after every race weekend and flush once a year - I stand on my brakes pretty hard.

[GlennCMC70]

I used the same SRF in my CMC car from the start of the 2005 season thru the April 2010 TWS event. I had to replace a master there on Friday and I flushed the system then. Before that, I would just bleed about 4" of fluid up a 1/4" clear hose to check the color and look for air bubbles.

Water is the enemy. Any oxygen in the system will boil out causing air pockets. H2O .........

[AllZWay]

Just another data point....

I use the Wilwood 570...( I have been told this is the same fluid as the old Ford HD that I used to use).

I change it twice a year also. At the first of the year and before Hallett. Then just a good bleed before ECR.

This stuff has been rock solid...never a soft pedal, not even after 40 minutes at Hallett.

[edrock96GT]

Based on past brake performance, my new flushing schedule is once before Hallett and once before ECR. I'm also going to try running some ducts to the rear brakes, since it feels like that's where most of the brake fade is coming from.

I like Marshall's idea of switching between amber and blue, makes it easier to know when you're done :)

[BlueFirePony]

Price points were higher than what I would expect to pay but the results seem to be what I'd expect - except the EBC blue did not do as well as I'd expected though :(

[marshall_mosty]

Price points were higher than what I would expect to pay but the results seem to be what I'd expect - except the EBC blue did not do as well as I'd expected though :(Just literally put the article down and makes me glad I'm very invested in PFC01's...

[Casey_SS]

I started my DE "career" with ATE but found myself bleeding it once a day, sometimes more. Heavy high-hp car with a green driver...a better driver in a lighter car certainly would have had a different experience. In any case, I switched to SRF which was rock solid but got too expensive as often as I was cracking the lines for one reason or another. I've been running the Wilwood 600 EXP this season and it's been great. It needed a quick bleed Saturday night at Cresson and one more at Hallett but for the price ($18), I'm happy with the performance.

[kbrewmr2]

had some bad experiences with Willwood fluid (the 5XX and 6XX) - won't put that it any car I drive....

if you boil SRF you'll boil anything - that's why its so expensive but damn it works. If you want to rule out fluid as the problem in your system look no further.

[AllZWay]

had some bad experiences with Willwood fluid (the 5XX and 6XX) - won't put that it any car I drive....
.

I have been running it for 10+ years and never a brake fluid issue. This stuff is awesome.

[Adam Ginsberg]

Interesting that we've all had different experiences with the same fluids.

I also saw the GRM article.....wouldn't put a set of Cobalt pads in my car again if they were given to me. Ever.

[kbrewmr2]

I have been running it for 10+ years and never a brake fluid issue. This stuff is awesome.

if it works for you and you're happy go for it. Almost cost us a top-5 and 1st in class durning One Lap of America the year I did it. Shrug.

[rpoz27]

had some bad experiences with Willwood fluid (the 5XX and 6XX) - won't put that it any car I drive....

if you boil SRF you'll boil anything - that's why its so expensive but damn it works. If you want to rule out fluid as the problem in your system look no further.

If you aren't boiling brake fluid...you aren't braking late enough.

Ed, check your rear axle end play. It is likely causing more rear brake problems than brake fade. Found that to be the problem on both the mustang and the camaro.....especially the camaro. rear brakes on the mustangs don't do much of anything. If you are fading them, check for a sticking caliper.

[marshall_mosty]

...rear brakes on the mustangs don't do much of anything. If you are fading them, check for a sticking caliper.That's the damn truth. I've been on the same set of XP8's in the back for the last 5 years...

[rpoz27]

That's the damn truth. I've been on the same set of XP8's in the back for the last 5 years...

Then you should have already gone to a more aggressive pad and used more rear brake...Don't mistake being able to trail brake a mustang for not having ANY rear brake working in your favor!

[kbrewmr2]

If you aren't boiling brake fluid...you aren't braking late enough.
1.) not enough hp to get good terminal velocity
2.) not enough weight to really put TONS of heat into the brakes like you guys
3.) brakes are sized too large when considering #1 & #2
4.) I get lockup first anyway

But I could see that being the case for your guys' kinds of cars - lots of horsepower, lots of weight.

[BlueFirePony]

...that being the case for your guys' kinds of cars - lots of horsepower, lots of weight.

I resemble the second but not the first. But I got an extra helping of the second :)

[edrock96GT]

If you aren't boiling brake fluid...you aren't braking late enough.

Ed, check your rear axle end play. It is likely causing more rear brake problems than brake fade. Found that to be the problem on both the mustang and the camaro.....especially the camaro. rear brakes on the mustangs don't do much of anything. If you are fading them, check for a sticking caliper.

Thanks, I'll check it out.

Back before I knew anything, I figured ALL the brakes needed to be upgraded so I put 13" Baer brakes with slotted, cross drilled rotors on the back and I don't have a proportioning valve either, so I figure they are working a little harder than the average mustang brakes.

I go through 3-4 sets of rear pads for every set of fronts.

[BlueFirePony]

Thanks, I'll check it out.

Back before I knew anything, I figured ALL the brakes needed to be upgraded so I put 13" Baer brakes with slotted, cross drilled rotors on the back and I don't have a proportioning valve either, so I figure they are working a little harder than the average mustang brakes.

I go through 3-4 sets of rear pads for every set of fronts.

Wow. Definately a lot of rear brake Eddie! Misty's suggestion about the sticking caliper definately a good one. I need to check my rears as well as they "disappeared" on me during the last race...I think that had a little to do with my spin at the end (over-aggressiveness was most of it though - but hey...last race, last lap, and 2nd to last turn...all or nothing right ? ). There is ZERO pad material left back there on both sides and I started Sunday with just about an 1/8 of a normal pad - usually that lasts a whole weekend.

[rpoz27]

ed, change back to the stock rotors. Those eradispeeds eat pads like mad. stock cobra rears are plenty fine. buy the kit from ford that has the brackets and new rotors for under $200. rear pads will last for a season or more.

[michaelmosty]

ed, change back to the stock rotors. Those eradispeeds eat pads like mad. stock cobra rears are plenty fine. buy the kit from ford that has the brackets and new rotors for under $200. rear pads will last for a season or more.
Agreed, I usually get 1 1/2 - 2 years from a set of rear pads. I also just changed my rear rotors last year after 5 yrs on the previous set.