What happened?

[ShadowBolt]

Looks like we lost the oil pump and cooked the motor. It's locked up and Jay and I pulled it out yesterday. I pulled off the valve covers and there is no oil in the head at all. Cams are blue from being so hot. Drained oil and it's cooked (only one race on it Sat morning in R1) also the magnetic drain plug had metal on it. Lots of work to do between now and Cresson. If anyone knows about a wrecked Mustang GT I could get for a song (I'm a really good singer) please let me know. I need a 4.6 and the 8.8 rear end. I'm not sure it's worth it to carry the extra 50lbs. for the alum. block. We really could not tell that much difference between the iron and aluminum block engines as far as the way the car handled. I would have thought 70lbs off the nose would have made a huge difference but it did not.

I have questions.
Who won R2? Also what happened in Diamonds Edge on the first lap of R2. Jay said cars were going everywhere. He thought there was some contact with several cars. Did all the cars make it okay?
What about Sunday? Looking for a recap from R2 through the rest of the weekend.


JJ

[Alien]

R2 was won by Marshall and Proctor.

Dan got his first win in R4

MyLaps is already up. Thanks Dave!

Some close finishes invloving Morgan...

R2
5 95 Morgan Dawdy 13:33.555
6 32 Gary Robertson 13:33.598

R4
8 95 Morgan Dawdy 18:51.050
9 34 Team WWR 18:51.059

[jdlingle]

Looks like we lost the oil pump and cooked the motor. It's locked up and Jay and I pulled it out yesterday. I pulled off the valve covers and there is no oil in the head at all. Cams are blue from being so hot. Drained oil and it's cooked (only one race on it Sat morning in R1) also the magnetic drain plug had metal on it. Lots of work to do between now and Cresson. If anyone knows about a wrecked Mustang GT I could get for a song (I'm a really good singer) please let me know. I need a 4.6 and the 8.8 rear end. I'm not sure it's worth it to carry the extra 50lbs. for the alum. block. We really could not tell that much difference between the iron and aluminum block engines as far as the way the car handled. I would have thought 70lbs off the nose would have made a huge difference but it did not.

JJ

Sorry to hear about the engine Jerry. Did you get a chance to look at the oil pump yet to see if it failed like you thought?

[ShadowBolt]

Sorry to hear about the engine Jerry. Did you get a chance to look at the oil pump yet to see if it failed like you thought?

Not yet. Tonight I will see for sure.


Jerry

[rpoz27]

Billet oil pump gears Jerry....even if you go with a junkyard motor... Cushmanmotorsports.com. he has pumps with good gears in them.

[Alien]

Do the 4.6's have the same issue that 302's seem to have, where the o/p drive shaft ends up looking like a twisler?

[cjlmlml]

i have an 8.8 in my garage that you can have, not sure what gears are in it , 3.27 , quad shock mounts are cut off.

[ShadowBolt]

i have an 8.8 in my garage that you can have, not sure what gears are in it , 3.27 , quad shock mounts are cut off.


Sold! I have to get the other end fixed first but I can put my 3.73's in it. Mine is making noise and leaking out of the plug welds that were re-welded at Hallett.


JJ

[ShadowBolt]

Do the 4.6's have the same issue that 302's seem to have, where the o/p drive shaft ends up looking like a twisler?

No drive shaft on the 4.6 oil pump.

JJ

[ShadowBolt]

Billet oil pump gears Jerry....even if you go with a junkyard motor... Cushmanmotorsports.com. he has pumps with good gears in them.

I should have done it right the first time Matt. I was told unless you are going to turn 7 grand the billet gears were not needed. Now I'm reading about Track even guys having the same thing happen to them. I will have the billet gears in the next one and a big red oil light. There is no way to watch the gauge while driving at speed.

JJ

[marshall_mosty]

Sorry Jerry. On Sunday R3, my motor wanted to put more outside the motor than leave inside... I too have a bunch of work, however, I'm not for sure what happened to mine. :(

[AllZWay]

Jerry... I had no idea you guys had a problem until I saw you leaving the track. I sure hate to hear about the issue. Good luck getting it going.

[jeremiahkellam]

Sorry to hear that Jerry

Congrats to Mosty, Proctor and Alford on the wins. Congrats to Proctor on the lap record!!

[jeremiahkellam]

Sorry, maybe I spoke too soon. Any officials wanna check that lap record??

[GlennCMC70]

Sorry, maybe I spoke too soon. Any officials wanna check that lap record??

Best I can do is the 2010 points sheet from Round 6.
MSRH (2.38mi) CCW CMC 1:47.820 Jeff Wirtz 01/31/10
MSRH (2.38mi) CCW CMC-2 1:45.841 Jeremiah Kellam 01/31/10

Looks like CMC has a new track record. :)

[Fbody383]

Also what happened in Diamonds Edge on the first lap of R2. Jay said cars were going everywhere. He thought there was some contact with several cars. Did all the cars make it okay?
Short answer... no, all the cars did not make it okay.

Long answer. Rewind to Hallett when too many cars were late to grid; well, it happened again. I'm late to grid and get waved past three or five cars already there but drivers not ready to go out. We get out and make the formation lap ok and get formed up for the green.

At the flag it's a pretty good run down into one and really, into and through the sweeper. We were at least 3 wide through two and probably a couple rows deep. The #39 took the inside and a pretty deep braking into three and that's where it started getting interesting.

Although an eye witness does not recall brake lock, nonetheless the front of the #39 washed out enough to get into the right door and rear quarter of the hard charging #34. Now, had the excitement stopped with the seemingly planned matching-dual clockwise spins, everybody would be much happier. No such luck.

As the #39 continued to spin, now moving across to track left, it collected the passenger side of the #11 (Orange is backward) along the passenger side of the #39. (If anyone has video I would like to see it.)

Result: too much paperwork for the #39, #11 and #34. And since the corner workers couldn't tell exactly what happend, Jeff Tilton (Rookie Extraordanaire) was told by Adrian to report to Tech for contact. So after being warned by Glenn at the beginning of the day to "avoid contact at ALL cost" he's sucked into the "big one." Fortunately neither a rookie car nor any driver's were harmed by my actions.

Apologies were graciously accepted by Michael Mosty and Wade Zimmer who both did nothing wrong.

Welcome to Round 1.

[jeremiahkellam]

Best I can do is the 2010 points sheet from Round 6.
MSRH (2.38mi) CCW CMC 1:47.820 Jeff Wirtz 01/31/10
MSRH (2.38mi) CCW CMC-2 1:45.841 Jeremiah Kellam 01/31/10

Looks like CMC has a new track record. :)


Ha, good point!!

[marshall_mosty]

I plan on pulling my motor out this weekend and tear into it. For those that didn't know my "issues". Car ran really well on Saturday. No issues, no leaks. Good to go. Qualified on Saturday and reported to the dyno to figure out where I was for the year. Found the car had lost approx 12HP and 15TQ from ECR (don't know why).

I ballasted up and ran the "hot" tune at 325/335 and took to the track for R3. After about 4 laps I was getting smoke in the car at the top end of the RPM band (4500-6000). It happened on straight aways, so I was not thinking about oil slosh in the pan.

After R3 (came in early), I pulled the hood and had oil below the headers around the timing cover on the passenger side and also on the driver's side. The dipstick was slightly blown out (never happened before). I cleaned everything up and put a rag around the dipstick to hopefully contain any more oil that spewed out during R4. None of the oil was heavy enough to do anything but make a mess on the splitter at this point (and a bunch of smoke). There were no traces on the exhaust pipes or underside of the car. Also, the engine sounded like it dropped a cylinder as it was down on power at the end of the race.

R4 did the same thing, but the engine seemed to pull okay until mid-race and then more smoke and more engine noise.

I'm going to do a leak down test to see what is the issue, but it appears at this point that I'm pressurizing the bottom end of the motor and can think of:
1. Hole in piston
2. Cracked piston ring
3. Cracked piston ring land
4. ???
5. ???

Keeping my fingers crossed that it isn't anything horrible, but hey, it's only money and others lost a bunch more this weekend:

Dulaney = motor
Jordan = motor
Patterson = pinion
Mosty (older) = right side of his car
Francis = right side of his car (damned backwards driving...) :)

[Casey_SS]

4. Blockage or routing problem in PCV system
5. Washed down cylinder walls / unseated rings (it's a stretch but possible)

I'm very curious to see what your plugs look like and what the leak down results are. It's possible you got a bunch of oil in the intake from a PCV issue that then got sucked into the cylinders, left deposits as it burned off, creating hotspots which caused some detonation and eventually cracked a ring land. It's pretty thin as theories go but I have heard of it happening. I would think your knock sensors would pull the timing down enough to save the motor though...were they hooked up and working?

[marshall_mosty]

4. Blockage or routing problem in PCV system
5. Washed down cylinder walls / unseated rings (it's a stretch but possible)

I'm very curious to see what your plugs look like and what the leak down results are. It's possible you got a bunch of oil in the intake from a PCV issue that then got sucked into the cylinders, left deposits as it burned off, creating hotspots which caused some detonation and eventually cracked a ring land. It's pretty thin as theories go but I have heard of it happening. I would think your knock sensors would pull the timing down enough to save the motor though...were they hooked up and working?

Casey,
302 based Fords of my vintage don't have knock sensors, but I will be able to tell very fast is I sucked down oil... I have a seperator and it wasn't completely full after R3, but maybe it skimmed oil off the top and down into the motor.

I will pull plugs and do the leak down before I pull it out. Should know more by approx 2pm Saturday afternoon. (Finger's crossed)

[BryanL]

Busted Ring Lands. When I bought my car it was making too much crankcase pressure and pushing the dipstick out. 2 of the ringlands were broken when we tore it down.

[marshall_mosty]

Busted Ring Lands. When I bought my car it was making too much crankcase pressure and pushing the dipstick out. 2 of the ringlands were broken when we tore it down.
I'm guessing I get to rebuild a recently rebuilt motor then.. yea!

[AllZWay]

Marshall... hopefully it isn't too bad. I didn't know about your problems either.

[Alien]

Looks like we lost the oil pump and cooked the motor.

JJ

This just dawned on me...
http://www.snopes.com/autos/cursed/green.asp

[ShadowBolt]

This just dawned on me...
http://www.snopes.com/autos/cursed/green.asp

I used to help a guy with a 1/4 mile oval dirt track 1956 Chevy. We showed up for a race one night right after he painted it green and I thought the other drivers were all going to pack up and leave. They said it was bad luck to have a green CHEVY race car. I did not know it was supposed to be all green race cars. Well I'm not changing it.


JJ

[edrock96GT]

.. Well I'm not changing it.


JJ

Me neither.

[Al Fernandez]

Dont change a thing Jerry, the car looks fabulous. Sorry to hear about your motor...and Marshal's, and Dulaney's...and Michael's and Francis's bodywork...

[MikeP99Z]

Rear end is trashed. Pinion has only about 70% remaining, the ring gear is destroyed, debris is everywhere inside the housing. So, I'm sure the new differential is junk due to debris. Hopefully the rear end housing and axles are salvageable.

[jdlingle]

Me neither.

Green solidarity! I had never heard about it either until after I bought my car.

[jdlingle]

Rear end is trashed. Pinion has only about 70% remaining, the ring gear is destroyed, debris is everywhere inside the housing. So, I'm sure the new differential is junk due to debris. Hopefully the rear end housing and axles are salvageable.

Sorry to hear that Mike. What caused the rear end to fail? Were the gears new too?

[Casey_SS]

Rear end is trashed. Pinion has only about 70% remaining, the ring gear is destroyed, debris is everywhere inside the housing. So, I'm sure the new differential is junk due to debris. Hopefully the rear end housing and axles are salvageable.

Yikes. Sorry to hear that Mike. My stock 3.42 ring and pinion were in perfect shape when I pulled them out after breaking the posi case last year...they're all yours if you want 'em.

[AllZWay]

Rear end is trashed. Pinion has only about 70% remaining, the ring gear is destroyed, debris is everywhere inside the housing. So, I'm sure the new differential is junk due to debris. Hopefully the rear end housing and axles are salvageable.

Man that is too bad... Lots of carnage for race weekend number 1.

[MikeP99Z]

Yikes. Sorry to hear that Mike. My stock 3.42 ring and pinion were in perfect shape when I pulled them out after breaking the posi case last year...they're all yours if you want 'em.

I've got my slightly worn 3.42s on the shelf also, and a very worn out T2R. Thanks though =)

[MikeP99Z]

Sorry to hear that Mike. What caused the rear end to fail? Were the gears new too?

Likely wheel hop under braking in the previous session. Best guess... / shrug /

Gears had been in there a few seasons.

[ShadowBolt]

Got the 4.6 tore down. As I assumed. Broken oil pump. Everything is toast. Both heads, cams, crank, four rods and four of the eight holes would have to be taken out .060" to get all the scratches out. What a waste of a bunch of money on good rods, and pistons. Not to mention a Teksid aluminum block. Steel block and 50lb. weight reduction is in the 55's future. I almost wanted to cry looking at those almost new rods all burned to hell!


JJ

[donovan]

JJ, check your email.

DD

[David Love AI27]

Got the 4.6 tore down. As I assumed. Broken oil pump. Everything is toast. Both heads, cams, crank, four rods and four of the eight holes would have to be taken out .060" to get all the scratches out. What a waste of a bunch of money on good rods, and pistons. Not to mention a Teksid aluminum block. Steel block and 50lb. weight reduction is in the 55's future. I almost wanted to cry looking at those almost new rods all burned to hell!


JJ

I hava a "complete" 4.6 in my shop floor taking up space...paid $500 for it. was in an AC Cobra kit car and was torbo charged.. If you find it is not worth it I'll take core value.. You got my digits..

[rpoz27]

Jerry. Do you have a canton oil pan? Make sure that is on your list too

[ShadowBolt]

Thanks to all that have offered help. I don't know what to do. David Donovan has offered help, David Love has an option, I have the iron block that bent the valves at Hallett two years ago that the block may be fine on so I don't know what I am going to do.


I do have the Canton pan.

JJ

[Al Fernandez]

Man that sucks :(

[cobra132]

JJ, I feel your pain, I am having flashbacks right now. I assume you had a good balancer on the front, I think the stock oil pump gears can't handle the harmonics or something. Get the billet steel gears if you stick with the mod motor. Let me know if I can help, I can check the local scrapyards if needed. Frank

[Chuck]

Jerry, that is bad. Sorry to hear it is that bad. If I can help, please let me know. Rough weekend for engines and other parts.


Chuck
CMC#14

[ShadowBolt]

Jerry, that is bad. Sorry to hear it is that bad. If I can help, please let me know. Rough weekend for engines and other parts.


Chuck
CMC#14

Chuck,
Thanks for the offer but just being able to use your hoist is all I need from you. Damn that thing is nice wit the new handle on it! Chuck's engine hoist lives at my house half the year and back at his house the other half.

Thanks to Chuck and and David Donovan for offering so much.


JJ

[ShadowBolt]

I sent a letter to DSS Racing asking why they thought the oil pump broke. I told them everything I could think of about the car and what is on/in it. Here is his response. I'm posting this incase anyone else is running the Shit Steeda underdrive set-up.

Jerry,
The only time we've seen pump gear failures here has been with the Steeda
under drive kit and with others that move the balancer out from its stock
location. Because the pump is driven directly from the crankshaft,
vibration or harmonics created gets directly transmitted to it. You can not
move the balancer out with a spacer or use an inferior quality balancer on
the 4.6 style engines or you run the risk of a failure like what you had.
If we use an under drive style balancer we prefer to use Innovators West
(about a $425 piece). They make a high quality item, Ford Racing has used
them for some of their high end applications as well. I don't think a
billet oil pump fixes your problem but it would not break in the same
fashion as this one did. Thanks
Eric
DSS Racing


Also I want to say I'm sorry for Marshall and Rob for taking their beds away for Sat. night. After the engine broke (and I pretty much knew what it was) I was not really in the mood to stay at the track.

DL has a great deal on a motor and a guy in S. Austin says he has a Brand New crate engine from Ford that he only wants $1800.00 for and he already told me he would take $1500.00. I really doubt this is brand new but I have ask for pictures and we will see. Either way it looks like we will go back to the iron block and the extra 70-75 lbs. on the nose. I will build another Aluminum engine in the off season and try it again. I had almost 3 grand on the one that just blew up so I'm not in a hurry to spend that kind of money right now. Even if these Mod motors are the bomb (and I have my doubts right now) the parts are high as hell. Just the gaskets are a fortune.


JJ

[marshall_mosty]

Jerry,
No worries, I bunked in Al's icebox on Saturday night. Sorry about the motor, I understand your angst.

[Rob Liebbe]

No problem on the early exit either Jerry. Ross and his girlfriend Jessica put me in their spare bedroom not far from the track. Thanks Ross and Jessica!

[BlueFirePony]

I sent a letter to DSS Racing asking why they thought the oil pump broke. I told them everything I could think of about the car and what is on/in it. Here is his response. I'm posting this incase anyone else is running the Shit Steeda underdrive set-up.Thanks for sharing Jerry. It's something to consider as we consider getting BFP back together...we've had the Steeda UDP on the car since 2006.

[jdlingle]

Ive got the Steeda underdrive set up on mine as well. That info from DSS is actually the first negative thing I have ever heard about it.

[edrock96GT]

Thanks for sharing Jerry. It's something to consider as we consider getting BFP back together...we've had the Steeda UDP on the car since 2006.

Yeah. I was thinking of getting them, too. Good to know.

[ShadowBolt]

I looked on Google and found a thread where eight of the best engine builders in the country say not to run anything but the stock balancer or the AIT or Innovations West. Even Innovations West says their 15% underdrive unit does not do as good a job damping the harmonics as their full size unit does. I probablly broke it (or weakened it) myself. Once in R1 I went from fifth to fourth but got second. It turned a million RPMS and this (over 6500) is when this is supposed to be a problem. I will try and find the post and link it up so you all can read it. DSS is not the only people saying it.


JJ

[ShadowBolt]

Here it is. I know it's the DOHC they are talking about but it's the same engine.


Here is a who’s who of the nation’s top modular engine builders that recommend avoiding small size dampers like Steeda on DOHC Ford engines:

Boss 330 Racing. Al Pappito

Modular Performance. John and Mike Tymenski

Accufab Racing. John Mihovetz. NHRA AA/AT World Record Holder

Livernois Motorsports

Pauls High Performance

Sean Hyland Motorsports

VT Engines




Here is small sample of the things they’ve had to say about small diameter dampers:




Quote:
"Do you rev your engine over 6500 rpm? If you do you should worry...The next time you blast through the gears might be your last"
Al Pappito



Quote:
"We do not install small dampers on any DOHC engine builds. All our engines get Innovators West full size dampers"
Livernoise Motorsports



Quote:
"There is alot of harmonic vibration on the front of mod. cranks. The small dia. dampers do not adequately control the vibration"
Al Pappito



Quote:
"The net of all this information is to use the (stock) '96-'01 Cobra balancer (F6ZZ-6312-AB) on all manual transmission, forged crank applications"
Sean Hyland



Quote:
"It appears that if you want your engine to live a happy life keep your stock vibration damper/pulleys"
Al Pappito



Quote:
"Cheapo balancers just do not work with powdered metal gears"
J. Mihovetz



Quote:
"Food for thought..I just rebuilt a '98 cobra it has spent the last five years as a road race car. The bone stock engine had never had a wrench on it, including the rusty stock damper sitting right where it was bolted in 1998. 20,000 mi at full throttle. This thing was totally worn out .guess what....The flats on the crank and the stock pump looked great.
In contrast...A slightly famous Factory stock cobra after a mid season NMRA teardown showed a problem. After 500 street miles and about 35 quarter mile passes the rotors had beat depressions about .040.'' deep into the drive flats where the pump contacts the crank. That engine was wearing a small dia. underdrive damper"
Al Pappito



Quote:
"There also seems to be increased instances of oil-pump failure when some brands of underdrive pulley kits are used. I believe this is due to inadequate damping with the reduced-diameter harmonic balancer"
Sean Hyland



Quote:
"I have experience with just about every dampener available for the Modular engines. Seen plenty of failures. For sure the smaller lighter dampeners will cause shorter oil pump life."
J. Mihovetz



Quote:
"After building truckloads of modular engines a pattern has emerged. Most all oil pump failures involve underdrive pulleys"
Al Pappito



Quote:
"If anyone will spend $5000+ to rebuild an engine, $400 for a damper should be one of the first things. I'm using an ATI"
VT Engines

[jdlingle]

Good info. Wish I had seen this stuff a year ago when I put the Steeda on. Just gonna cross the fingers now I guess.

[jdlingle]

Do you have one of the older Steeda units? I have seen some stuff on various forums after looking now that they had some dampening issues with earlier batches that are supposedly worked out with the newer units. I know that the product page now states that they receive their dampening information directly from Ford. Think Im gonna shoot them an email and see what they say about reliablilty concerns. I know they wont come right out and say our stuff sucks or anything but maybe I can read betweent the lines of their answer. Ill let you know what they say.

[mitchntx]

Heard about your motor woes. Sux ...

Investing in quality vibration and harmonics elimination is money well spent.
I have a Fluidampner on my LT1.

[ShadowBolt]

Heard about your motor woes. Sux ...

Investing in quality vibration and harmonics elimination is money well spent.
I have a Fluidampner on my LT1.

I never even considered it. The car came with the Steeda crap on it and I assumed it was okay. I do understand that Steeda did a redesign on their kit but I don't know if mine is the old one or the new one. Still Ford racing will only use the Innovators West units on their Road race engines. Innovators West even says their smaller units do not do as good a job as the full size units do. Not worth the risk for me.


JJ

[BlueFirePony]

I never even considered it. The car came with the Steeda crap on it and I assumed it was okay. I do understand that Steeda did a redesign on their kit but I don't know if mine is the old one or the new one. Still Ford racing will only use the Innovators West units on their Road race engines. Innovators West even says their smaller units do not do as good a job as the full size units do. Not worth the risk for me.


JJ
We've probably just been lucky in that I changed the rev limiter to 6200 a year or so ago (from 6800) since the car pretty much falls flat after 5800 (another thing to work on..) - the car pulls like a beast down low and through the mid-range but I generally grab 4th at 5500 and ride it back up just shy of the (new) limiter on TWS and ECR straights (and 5th gear is an anchor so I rarely use it). Definately plan to change the pulley once we re-dress the engine (when that will be who knows)

[Rob Liebbe]

We've probably just been lucky in that I changed the rev limiter to 6200 a year or so ago (from 6800) since the car pretty much falls flat after 5800 (another thing to work on..) - the car pulls like a beast down low and through the mid-range but I generally grab 4th at 5500 and ride it back up just shy of the (new) limiter on TWS and ECR straights (and 5th gear is an anchor so I rarely use it). Definately plan to change the pulley once we re-dress the engine (when that will be who knows)

Yeah, but the rev limiter won't help when you miss a downshift and the rear wheels mechanically force the engine to 9000 rpm.

[BlueFirePony]

Yeah, but the rev limiter won't help when you miss a downshift and the rear wheels mechanically force the engine to 9000 rpm.
I've been lucky there too :cool:...well in this car any way

Since I don't use 5th the 4-1 shift is really the only chance for that and it's actually pretty hard to do a 4-1 shift in this car as notchy as it is...not impossible but less likely that a 5-2. Its also pretty hard to RPM match in this car so I am pretty attentive to the downshift normally anyway

[marshall_mosty]

Well, did a leakdown on mine toiday and #7 and #8 are trouble. Both had oil soaked black plugs... Also, there wasn't enough compression to even register on the leakdown. It was blowing all down the crankcase...

Pulled the motor and will be dropping the long block off at Richard Painter's tomorrow for a full tear down and diagnosis...

I figured I would get more from this than ECR and Saturday at MSR-H...

[jdlingle]

That sucks man. Any idea what caused it?

[GlennCMC70]

Well, did a leakdown on mine toiday and #7 and #8 are trouble. Both had oil soaked black plugs... Also, there wasn't enough compression to even register on the leakdown. It was blowing all down the crankcase...

Pulled the motor and will be dropping the long block off at Richard Painter's tomorrow for a full tear down and diagnosis...

I figured I would get more from this than ECR and Saturday at MSR-H...

I hate to tell you I told you so. Once I saw that the dipstick blew out, I knew you had a interal problem.
Sorry, but I bet it will a somewhat cheap fix (new pistons?)

[jdlingle]

I may joining the casualty list. Car died twice today trying to back it out of the garage. Stumbles and falls flat on its face while idling, which it started doing on Sunday, but not this bad. Have fulid all over the bellhousing and exhausts as well as around the PVC and EGR valve openings on the valve covers. It doesnt look the same as the same as the oil that I drained today but it still looks like oil to me. I guess its possible it could be transmission fluid. I am absolutely freaked out right now trying to not panic thinking about possible issues.

Oil that came out was clean (no water in it) so I assume that means I dont have any headgasket issues as those do not appear to be the source of the leak. But the weird places that fluid is at are really confusing me. Any ideas where to look first 4.6 guys? (Or anybody that knows more about engines than me, which means everybody:))

[marshall_mosty]

I hate to tell you I told you so. Once I saw that the dipstick blew out, I knew you had a interal problem.
Sorry, but I bet it will a somewhat cheap fix (new pistons?)

Glenn,
I figured it wasn't good at the time, but I had no choice but to drive it like I stole it... I'm crossing my fingers it's easy and not too involved. I have complete faith in Richard to come up with the cause of death after the post morteum inspection. The motor is already 0.030 over and these blocks only like going to 0.040... If it needs pidtons, it's gonna be the "last dance" for this block once re-ringing doesn't work anymore...

When a new block is needed, at least I have the expensive stuff already (crank and rods). They are only at 0.010 under so they have some ways top go.

**finger's crossed**

[marshall_mosty]

I may joining the casualty list. Car died twice today trying to back it out of the garage. Stumbles and falls flat on its face while idling, which it started doing on Sunday, but not this bad. Have fulid all over the bellhousing and exhausts as well as around the PVC and EGR valve openings on the valve covers. It doesnt look the same as the same as the oil that I drained today but it still looks like oil to me. I guess its possible it could be transmission fluid. I am absolutely freaked out right now trying to not panic thinking about possible issues.

Oil that came out was clean (no water in it) so I assume that means I dont have any headgasket issues as those do not appear to be the source of the leak. But the weird places that fluid is at are really confusing me. Any ideas where to look first 4.6 guys? (Or anybody that knows more about engines than me, which means everybody:))

Are you sure you didn't spit out the PCV valve and are spewing oil from that as well as pullinh in unmetered air (causing the idle issues)? If so, then you need to figure out why it puked it out...

[cobra132]

Sorry to hear about all the badness, good luck to all. And by the way I had the steeda underdrive set on my car when the oil pump failed at MSRH several years ago. FMR

[marshall_mosty]

Jerry,
Found this block... Don't know if it helps though. I'm not current on 4.6 stuff...

http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=53953&sid=15dea25d82bde02cda408fd2bc0fd93d

[ShadowBolt]

Jerry,
Found this block... Don't know if it helps though. I'm not current on 4.6 stuff...

http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=53953&sid=15dea25d82bde02cda408fd2bc0fd93d

Matt has one like this. For now to keep cost down I bought David Loves iron block 2000 4.6 he bought off Craig's list. It came out of a Cobra kit car with twin turbos. I have been working on it all weekend. I bought a new oil pump for $300.00 with the hardened gears (even though I'm going to run the stock balancer so I doubt I need it) and I'm installing my Canton oil pan. Changing the oil pump is a big job since you have to remove the front cover and all the timing chains and tensioners. DL's engine looks really good. The only issue so far is the guy burned the shit out of the clutch and toasted the flywheel. No worries I have another. I owe DL big time for selling it to me.

I hope to build up another aluminum block engine maybe in the off season.

FYI,
The stock balancer is over 7" in diameter. The Steeda is just under 4.5".


JJ

[marshall_mosty]

Well, it went lean on #8 and scorched the block between #7 and #8. Took a chunk of the piston of #8 above the top ring and slammed it into the head a bunch. We are trying to figure out if the block is trashed... Obviously will need new pistons and an overbore at a minimum. Heads will need to be cleaned up (#8) and decked...

Will post pics later. Can't get to photo sites from work...

Why do we do this again???

:)

[Alien]

Look on the bright side, if you bore it out more, that's a few less ounces on the nose of the car!

If it's too bad, maybe just sleeve that one cly?

[ShadowBolt]

Look on the bright side, if you bore it out more, that's a few less ounces on the nose of the car!



I'm adding 75lbs. to the nose of the 55 going back to an iron block.

JJ

[y5e06]

Took a chunk of the piston of #8 above the top ring and slammed it into the head a bunch. We are trying to figure out if the block is trashed... Obviously will need new pistons and an overbore at a minimum.
you think #8 walls are cracked or just heavily scored? If your block has value to you, can you just sleeve it? I have a sleeve in my #7 due to a wadded up piston and broken rod prior to my ownership. luckily the crack wasn't at the very top/bottom of the bore which you may not be able to sleeve. It was easier than sourcing a new used block and going through all the evaluation and machine work again.
If your other cylinders are in really good shape maybe you can save money there by not doing any machining or overbore.

[marshall_mosty]

you think #8 walls are cracked or just heavily scored? If your block has value to you, can you just sleeve it? I have a sleeve in my #7 due to a wadded up piston and broken rod prior to my ownership. luckily the crack wasn't at the very top/bottom of the bore which you may not be able to sleeve. It was easier than sourcing a new used block and going through all the evaluation and machine work again.
If your other cylinders are in really good shape maybe you can save money there by not doing any machining or overbore.

Morgan,
Thanks for the idea. It's a B50 motorsport block ($900 new) so I'd like to slavage it, if possible. It's in Richard Painter's capable hands so hopefully I will know what I'm in for in the next day or so.

Maybe just sleeve the two affected cylinders and replace the two pistons...

[ShadowBolt]

Morgan,
Thanks for the idea. It's a B50 motorsport block ($900 new) so I'd like to slavage it, if possible. It's in Richard Painter's capable hands so hopefully I will know what I'm in for in the next day or so.

Maybe just sleeve the two affected cylinders and replace the two pistons...

I have to ask. Why does no one build their own engines? It's the only thing I really enjoy about working on a car these days. Clean parts on a engine stand.......that's as good as it gets (as far as working on cars is concerned). Just wondering?

JJ

[K Shaw]

I do my own and have had pretty good luck with it so far. I have onely done stockish rebuilds nothing fancy or expensive.

kyle

[marshall_mosty]

I have to ask. Why does no one build their own engines? It's the only thing I really enjoy about working on a car these days. Clean parts on a engine stand.......that's as good as it gets (as far as working on cars is concerned). Just wondering?

JJ

Jerry,
I have built my own since the beginning. This was Dave Neary's motor that lost a lifter and hadn't been checked/cleaned out yet. I let someone who could diagnose the damage tear it down and put it back together.

Now since this one is also "F'd", I'll let Richard take care of it too.

On top of all that, I don't physically have time to do it right now and really want to make Cresson (depending on the estimate to replace all the F'd parts)...

[marshall_mosty]

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/403287_2304399028815_1814430887_1448248_330580062_ n.jpg
Cylinders 7/8

http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/398622_2304399268821_1814430887_1448249_1866564740 _n.jpg
Cylinder 8

http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/402014_2304399508827_1814430887_1448250_1496392547 _n.jpg
Piston 8

http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/417835_2304399908837_47686577_n.jpg
Cylinder head carnage

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/431059_2304400108842_1814430887_1448252_1804091804 _n.jpg
Cylinder 7/8

http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/408918_2304400228845_1814430887_1448253_1507366425 _n.jpg
Cylinder 2.... yes, that's three pistons...

Block is trashed due to the heat checking between the cylinders. Guess a I have Ford Motorsport boat anchor and several paper weights for my desk at the office...

Have a call into the dyno guys to figure out why this tune went so wrong...

[Mrs. Crumpacker]

get a piece of glass and you now have an awesome coffee table for your "man-cave"

[Alien]

I have to ask. Why does no one build their own engines? It's the only thing I really enjoy about working on a car these days. Clean parts on a engine stand.......that's as good as it gets (as far as working on cars is concerned). Just wondering?

JJ
I used to work at an automotive machine shop (counter guy at Vilas Motor Works in Bryan/College Station). We charged $280 to assmeble a V8 longblock. After spending money on all the new parts, the labor I can't do such as boring and honing the block, resizing big end of rods, pressing on pistons without breaking them, valve job/guide work, resurfacing heads etc, the assembley charge is small in relation to knowing it was 'professionally' assembled.

The first engine I put in Knocker after I bought it (to replace the one that started knocking on the way home after buying it), was a mild 350 built by Vilas. ~$1200 IIRC before the assmbly charge, not including water pump, plugs wires etc that I still needed to buy. The way I look at it, that $280 for peace of mind was worth it.

I guess it might be different if I were to build an engine from scratch with all new parts and didn't need a machine shop for the labor typically needed for a rebuild.

All that said, for CMC I prefer to use seasoned engines; the 305 TPI was a 180k mile engine and the now LT1 is a 100k+ engine. :)

[marshall_mosty]

Looks like I'm back to the drawinig board.

block is trashed
3 trashed pistons
5 pistons showing severe heat checking
7 bent exhaust valves
valve locks are worn out
valve springs need replacement

Total bill is approx $2600... if I were to pull the trigger today.


Looking at options to use my old, tired 302 with a set of GT40 iron heads, but don't know if it's worth the effort for the MAF, T-body, and 30# injectors. Most likely will sit out the season, saving sheckles to build it again over the off season...

[rpoz27]

you probably already know this but cruise dfwmustangs.net....bet you could find a nice 302 with afr's for a decent price.

Just keep in mind that 302's all run lean on the #7/#8 cylinders...when you choke them down, they go really lean. Whatever you do, only buy enough head to get to your power level, buy the RIGHT cam for those heads and have a lot of compression. Then build the valve train for 7k rpm and it should live a long time....

sorry for the bad luck but don't give up.


Looks like I'm back to the drawinig board.

block is trashed
3 trashed pistons
5 pistons showing severe heat checking
7 bent exhaust valves
valve locks are worn out
valve springs need replacement

Total bill is approx $2600... if I were to pull the trigger today.


Looking at options to use my old, tired 302 with a set of GT40 iron heads, but don't know if it's worth the effort for the MAF, T-body, and 30# injectors. Most likely will sit out the season, saving sheckles to build it again over the off season...

[rpoz27]

you probably already know this but cruise dfwmustangs.net....bet you could find a nice 302 with afr's for a decent price.

Just keep in mind that 302's all run lean on the #7/#8 cylinders...when you choke them down, they go really lean. Whatever you do, only buy enough head to get to your power level, buy the RIGHT cam for those heads and have a lot of compression. Then build the valve train for 7k rpm and it should live a long time....

sorry for the bad luck but don't give up.

http://dfwmustangs.net/class/showproduct.php?product=5405&title=347-complete-motor-intake-to-oil-pan&cat=9

complete 347 with TFS heads and only a claimed 3000 miles...it's a drag motor but for $3000....buy it!

[MikeP99Z]

That sux. Sorry to hear that. Finding a pull-out maybe an option. Then again, a Coyote swap could be fun.

Hopefully you can stuff something under the hood for some events this year.


Looks like I'm back to the drawinig board.

block is trashed
3 trashed pistons
5 pistons showing severe heat checking
7 bent exhaust valves
valve locks are worn out
valve springs need replacement

Total bill is approx $2600... if I were to pull the trigger today.


Looking at options to use my old, tired 302 with a set of GT40 iron heads, but don't know if it's worth the effort for the MAF, T-body, and 30# injectors. Most likely will sit out the season, saving sheckles to build it again over the off season...

[Casey_SS]

Ditto. Really sorry to hear this Marshall. Hope you can source a replacement soon.

Any new theories on what went wrong in the tune?

[edrock96GT]

I'm sorry to hear that too. I'll keep my eyes open for anything that may help you.

[jdlingle]

What a bummer. Hope everything works out. Let me know if I can help.

[marshall_mosty]

I told Richard to get the heads ready. I have my old short block that I might slop together... it's the one that I cracked the water pump mounting ear off the block and JB welded it back together... Would work in a pinch, as long as the JB weld holds.

Kinda frustrating to only have 4 hours on a motor before it goes "pop"...

[GlennCMC70]

From the sound of things, your tuner should be paying this bill.

[BryanL]

Might consider some sort of air/fuel guage in the future. I would like to have one that records so I could watch a playback to see what it does during a race.

Jerry's issues are also making me think of adding an ATI balancer sooner rather than later.

[edrock96GT]

..Jerry's issues are also making me think of adding an ATI balancer sooner rather than later.

It definitely made me not get underdrive pulleys.

[marshall_mosty]

Talked to the tuner and they are standing behind their tune. If it was safe on the dyno, it should be safe now. Tunes don't change. They insist that something else failed when the cylinders went lean...

I don't know where else to go with this other than patch together a dog to get me through the season (hopefully) and then put the better motor back together next winter for 2013...

[Casey_SS]

Tunes don't change but factory PCM's have more than one - if one of them isn't right for your motor....boom. I don't know much about Ford computers but I would bet there's a normal MAF-based tune which operates in both open and closed loop depending on coolant temp, O2s, etc. and also a speed density tune as a backup in case the MAF fails or some other "limp home" condition occurs. If this is all the same for Ford as it is for GM, the speed density tune probably uses static VE tables to calculate fuel requirements in response to MAP, RPM, TPS, & IAT readings. Most tuners only dink with the MAF tables because it's relatively quick and easy. They rarely adjust for open vs. closed loop operation on a race car - these are two different tunes and will produce different dyno and afr readings, at least on my car. Speed density mode is a completely different tune yet again and is a royal PITA to even get close on a heads/cam motor. Time is money...if you paid your tuner less than $500 he didn't touch the speed density or open loop parameters.

A full-on 350hp race motor running on a stock 220hp VE table due to a sensor failure or burnt wire would probably melt down about like yours did. Something like this should have thrown an OBD code though...you haven't mentioned one so I'm assuming it didn't. Regardless, I would do some research on all the possible reasons a Ford computer could suddenly pick a different fuel map from what it was using on the dyno. Maybe testing your master disconnect threw it into a different base fuel map and it didn't revert back to the "good" map quick enough?

[GlennCMC70]

I'll let Marshall explain, but in short, Ford PCM's work nothing like GM's. And I mean nothing.

[marshall_mosty]

Casey,
I did get a check engine light before the "boom". I'll have to go back and pull codes to see what's up...

[BryanL]

I would suggest looking for a used factory motor and preferably some sort of crate motor-I don't know the power that you need to make or the power that you can get one from the factory. I'm of the opinion that for what we do the failure rate or longevitiy on a new/used motor from the factory is so much better than after they have been rebuilt.

[cjlmlml]

Maybe it was the steeda ultralight pullies?