Scientific evaluation of Camaro/Mustang performance parity

[Daniel Allford]

There has been some grumbling recently about on track performance differences between Mustangs and Camaros. I would hate to think that what success I have had may be do to some unfair advantage of the Camaro platform. Being fairly new to the CMC series, I had limited knowledge of the problem. But the internet is a marvelous thing. So with all due credit to Al Gore’s invention, I would like to share what I have gleaned from the net. I will present the data in graphic form and follow with conclusions. I will say in advance that the difference between Camaros and Mustangs is actually a function of the type of person attracted to the two different platforms.
1094
I found some enlightening information based on the research of a post graduate psychology student who used open source data to assign a 1 to 10 rating for both driving skill (using data collected from black box recorders during standard maintenance visits) see: http://www.iihs.org/research/qanda/edr.html
and masculinity data from sales surveys see: http://www.ford.com/cars/mustang/ and http://www.chevrolet.com/camaro-performance-cars.html To measure masculinity the surveys included questions such as: “Do you enjoy walks on the beach, candle lit dinners and fluffy kittens?” and “Are you comfortable talking about feelings?” The scatter graph has some overlap but the average Mustang driver is overwhelming more in touch with his feminine side while the average Camaro driver has remarkably superior car handling skills.
1092
Studies have linked the so-called 2D:4D ratio of finger length with exposure to testosterone in the womb. Read more: http://healthland.time.com/2011/07/06/penis-size-it-may-be-written-in-the-length-of-his-fingers/#ixzz22KNgXYgX
I have plotted the average 2D:4D ratios for Camaro and Mustang drivers above. Men with high testosterone levels typically have ring fingers which are longer in relation to their index fingers (lower 2D:4D ratios). As shown on the graph, lower testosterone levels are associated with a preference for Mustangs. This may also explain why Mustang drivers hands slip off the wheel more frequently: they have shorter ring fingers. This graph certainly explains why Mustangs are so popular in the California.
1095
This may be the most disturbing graph. I am hesitant to include it. I encourage everyone to check my data, but I fear that the results are undeniable. People with higher intelligence quotient (IQ) tend to prefer Camaros. For more information see: http://www.mensa.org/about-us#kind-of-people

1093
The pie charts above shocked me. But numbers don’t lie. The music industry is very good about monitoring demographics of their customers. I found a wealth of pertinent information on the web on sites such as: http://www.billboard.com/#/

CONCLUSION: Performance differences between the Camaro and Mustang CARS is below detectable limits. However, based on the data we can say with an 89% certainty that the Mustang driver, on average, will be a dull witted, girly man who prefers boy bands, exhibits poor driving skill, has low testosterone levels and small “hands”.

I hope this clears up the confusion. Now let’s go racing.

Dan Allford #82
Redshift Racing

[rpoz27]

Only applies to CMC. Try owning both!

[Rsmith350]

Lmao!!!!!!!! If someone doesn't put this on the national site...... I will lol

[marshall_mosty]

That was great!!

[AllZWay]

Thanks for long and exhausting work of clearing up the Mustang vs. Camaro debate. ;)

[michaelmosty]

Marshall is doing his part with his support of Celine Dion!!
I have to ask Dan, who is the lone Camaro driver on the Mustang side of the graph?

[GlennCMC70]

Marshall is doing his part with his support of Celine Dion!!
I have to ask Dan, who is the lone Camaro driver on the Mustang side of the graph?

Matt White? j/k

[BlueFirePony]

The pie charts above shocked me. Ahh. I see you took the same logical philosophy course most of us did in our first year of engineering ;)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Lie_with_Statistics

[Al Fernandez]

ROFL! You just cant argue with science

[BlueFirePony]

ROFL! You just cant argue with science
Sure you can! Science is 90% based on theories which are educated guesses which are largely funded by corporations and governments looking for a specific targeted result.
Two words : Global Warming.
Still...damn funny - both Global Warming and Dan's treatise

[rleng1]

Marshall is doing his part with his support of Celine Dion!!
I have to ask Dan, who is the lone Camaro driver on the Mustang side of the graph?

A chevy driver who drinks Ketsone Light.

[BADVENM]

At HPR yesterday Tommy "too fast" ran my Fox in warmups while I ran Ken Rockwells SN95. On Saturday Cody ran Kens car in warmups and Ken drove Codys car. Tommy runs a Firebird, Ken runs an SN95, Cody runs a 4th gen Camaro and I run a Fox Mustang.

To summarize the results Tommy loved my cars turn in (stock track length) and power and didnt like the cars ability to come out of the turn (a bit tail happy). Cody noticed a narrow power band in Kens SN95. I loved Kens cars ability to stick in the corners but didnt get used to what seemed to be a lack of punch when hitting the gas. Ken loved Codys power cause it was everywhere.

This was our first time ever in each others cars. My seat was too narrow for Tommy, Kens seat was too low for my preference, etc. Tommy ran a lap time in my car that was as fast as I had ever driven it (up until Saturday). Cody ran a time in Kens car that was within a second as fast as Ken had ever driven his car. I thought I was driving pretty fast in Kens car but was 8 seconds slower then in my own car. Ken ran a time in Codys car that was within a second or so as fast as he had driven in his own car.

So, what does that mean? I dont know. For the past few years we've discussed (in Rocky Mountain region) swapping cars with each other in warmups just to get a feel for another platform whether it be GM or Ford. I'm hoping we can continue this at the next few events.

Could Tommy run my Fox close to his Firebird times if the seat were correct and he went all out and was confortable with the car? He's usually 5 or so seconds faster then me at every event. It sounded like to me he could knock off second or two with a little more seat time and driving the car 10/10ths.

[GlennCMC70]

At HPR yesterday Tommy "too fast" ran my Fox in warmups while I ran Ken Rockwells SN95. On Saturday Cody ran Kens car in warmups and Ken drove Codys car. Tommy runs a Firebird, Ken runs an SN95, Cody runs a 4th gen Camaro and I run a Fox Mustang.

To summarize the results Tommy loved my cars turn in (stock track length) and power and didnt like the cars ability to come out of the turn (a bit tail happy). Cody noticed a narrow power band in Kens SN95. I loved Kens cars ability to stick in the corners but didnt get used to what seemed to be a lack of punch when hitting the gas. Ken loved Codys power cause it was everywhere.

This was our first time ever in each others cars. My seat was too narrow for Tommy, Kens seat was too low for my preference, etc. Tommy ran a lap time in my car that was as fast as I had ever driven it (up until Saturday). Cody ran a time in Kens car that was within a second as fast as Ken had ever driven his car. I thought I was driving pretty fast in Kens car but was 8 seconds slower then in my own car. Ken ran a time in Codys car that was within a second or so as fast as he had driven in his own car.

So, what does that mean? I dont know. For the past few years we've discussed (in Rocky Mountain region) swapping cars with each other in warmups just to get a feel for another platform whether it be GM or Ford. I'm hoping we can continue this at the next few events.

Could Tommy run my Fox close to his Firebird times if the seat were correct and he went all out and was confortable with the car? He's usually 5 or so seconds faster then me at every event. It sounded like to me he could knock off second or two with a little more seat time and driving the car 10/10ths.

golf clap.....
Good job. Didn't prove much did it though.

[michaelmosty]

<golf clap>
Good job. Didn't prove much did it though.
I think it proved a lot.

[edrock96GT]

That first graph was photoshopped. It clearly said "Mullet length" rating. Not "Masculinity"...

[Al Fernandez]

Driving other people's cars can be enlightening, but it takes more than a session or two for your typical driver to be able to extract everything out of a car simply because of getting comfortable. I've found ammateur drivers (all of us) are almost always noticeably slower in other people's cars even when they've had plenty of time in it...simply because they dont want to damage it.

Since this thread is going I thought I'd add some more fake science to it. A little while ago, someone mentioned to me that he thought the problem with Foxes isnt that they're slower than the other cars, rather that they work the tires harder so they loose grip earlier, so by the end of the race they're done for. I ran an experiment using actual data which I've included in the attached. Many thanks to Michael Mosty, James Proctor, and Dan Allford for agreeing to let me share this with you since it is data from their cars.

The spreadsheet contains data from all of our straight up races (not the inverts) this year. Instead of lap time, there is a calculated % of best lap time in that session. So, for example, if the best lap time in that session was 2:00.00 and on lap 1 the time was 2:01.20 the calculated number is 101%. The thought being that if a car is losing performance over the course of the session, then this % would increase (more or less) each lap. By doing it using % we can more easily look at all sessions at the same time. Also, I dropped anything over 103 since that is too big a gain in time to be attributable to tires going away. Thats more like going off! lol Anyway, have a look and see what you think. I'll save my conclusions for a bit... :)

[GlennCMC70]

off to make some popcorn....

[BryanL]

Interesting stuff Al. Now can we see some actual performance data from different platforms, too?

This reinforces my notion that my heavier minimum weight LS1 4th Gen is at a disadvantage due to the tires falling off especially in longer races (Jerry's only hope in beating me is a 100 lap race). Very interesting how both Procter/Allford's average lap times increase by almost the exact same percentage yet Mosty's Fox lap times drop.

Now let's hear how this doesn't take into account what the best lap times actually were, the 4th Gen driver's tire pressures are wrong and they don't realize it because they are easy to drive, and that Mosty is better later in the race.

Remember-this is all just fun/games till someone separates a rib trying to run a better time on the Huffy. No doubt that comes down to being unfamilar with the platform compared to the much heavier Mongoose I rode 30 years ago.

No popcorn for me-I'm off to eat some fruits/veggies/shakes with the new lightweight D. Love!!!

[michaelmosty]

I'm posting this before I have even looked at the data Al just posted. I am a little frustrated b/c after James, Dan, and myself all gave the consent to use our data, I replied with my concern over the "purpose" of the test. I completely disagree with Al's comment below:
"A little while ago, someone mentioned to me that he thought the problem with Foxes isnt that they're slower than the other cars, rather that they work the tires harder so they loose grip earlier, so by the end of the race they're done for."

I asked Al who this "someone" was where he heard this theory b/c it is the exact opposite of what I feel. This was a couple of weeks ago and I never got a response.
I feel the Mustang is strong at the end b/c of its lighter weight. But what do I know, I'm not a director.
Sorry to bag on you Al, I just feel if we are going to be putting forth effort to analyze data that we should be focusing in the right direction.

OK, rant off, now to see what the data says.

[AllZWay]

I think I am too dumb to be able to understand the data. :o

[smitty328]

I think I am too dumb to be able to understand the data. :o

^^^ not a Mustang driver. Just sayin...

[GlennCMC70]

I'm posting this before I have even looked at the data Al just posted. I am a little frustrated b/c after James, Dan, and myself all gave the consent to use our data, I replied with my concern over the "purpose" of the test. I completely disagree with Al's comment below:
"A little while ago, someone mentioned to me that he thought the problem with Foxes isnt that they're slower than the other cars, rather that they work the tires harder so they loose grip earlier, so by the end of the race they're done for."

I asked Al who this "someone" was where he heard this theory b/c it is the exact opposite of what I feel. This was a couple of weeks ago and I never got a response.
I feel the Mustang is strong at the end b/c of its lighter weight. But what do I know, I'm not a director.
Sorry to bag on you Al, I just feel if we are going to be putting forth effort to analyze data that we should be focusing in the right direction.

OK, rant off, now to see what the data says.

The tire issue is something I think we have all been told by "Ford guys" from time to time and blame was always placed on the need for high negative camber settings. I don't know who made the quote though.

[michaelmosty]

The tire issue is something I think we have all been told by "Ford guys" from time to time and blame was always placed on the need for high negative camber settings. I don't know who made the quote though.
Hmmm, I guess I have never heard that.
The only thing that comes to mind is complaints of brake lockup due to the high negative camber that has to be run but I have not heard of any other issues.

[AllZWay]

^^^ not a Mustang driver. Just sayin...

Ouch... :D

[BlueFirePony]

Ouch... :D
Don't worry James, I am working on something for 2013 that will help even you less sophisticated Camaro jockeys ;)

[michaelmosty]

Al replied back to my e-mail and informed me it was a theory from another Fox driver from another region.
I was a little caught off guard b/c I took it as it was something I had previously stated.

I don't feel this a disadvantage to the Fox but if the powers at be want to research more I think it would be beneficial to get more data from the other regions who run more 40 minute races than we do. IMO, the only 40 min race in TX (Hallett R4) is not worth looking at b/c James backed off ever so slightly due to his 5 second lead, I kept going as hard as possible, and Dan fell off after I got around him. The fact that my times didn't fall off as much as James and Dan is not shocking at all.

[RichardP]

and Dan fell off after I got around him.

The fact that the front crossmember was ripping apart giving him 3/4" of toe in and both front shock mounts were broken could possibly have had a small effect on the amount that Dan fell off...


Richard P.

[michaelmosty]

The fact that the front crossmember was ripping apart giving him 3/4" of toe in and both front shock mounts were broken could possibly have had a small effect on the amount that Dan fell off...


Richard P.
I completely agree. That is why I am confused this data is being used and published for all to give an opinion on.

[GlennCMC70]

Don't worry, there is a major event coming soon that will have all platforms in attendance that will yeald plenty of great data.

[Al Fernandez]

Michael, again, sorry it took a while to respond to you. This set of data didn't come about because of you, but you were the best guy to either prove or disprove a theory. I completely agree that this data set isn't useful beyond the 14 or so laps we typically run in Texas due to there only being one 40 minute run in there and in that run James had a huge lead and Dan was limping. I'm already working on a similar exercise using data from other regions. It is, however, very good data to see what happens during 25 minute sessions if you focus on that part.

[jdlingle]

There are way too many factors there between three different cars on three different agendas for it to be valid in any way. In this particular case you had one driver minding the gap to second, the second place driver pushing hard to catch up, and the third place car doing a damn good job to drive a car that was trying to fall apart on him mid-race. Not to mention unkown tire age on all three cars. This isnt Rolex racing where everyone straps on a brand new identical set of slicks. Everyone has got tires of differing ages and useful life on. The only useful data set for this type of comparison is gonna be if you can get it during some type of practice or testing session with one driver driving all cars. Oh and the driver would need to be a pro. And after all that nobody would agree with that data either. ;)

[GlennCMC70]

There are way too many factors there between three different cars on three different agendas for it to be valid in any way. In this particular case you had one driver minding the gap to second, the second place driver pushing hard to catch up, and the third place car doing a damn good job to drive a car that was trying to fall apart on him mid-race. Not to mention unkown tire age on all three cars. This isnt Rolex racing where everyone straps on a brand new identical set of slicks. Everyone has got tires of differing ages and useful life on. The only useful data set for this type of comparison is gonna be if you can get it during some type of practice or testing session with one driver driving all cars. Oh and the driver would need to be a pro. And after all that nobody would agree with that data either. ;)


The data is not just from Hallett. I understood it to be from most if not all of the events this year. So the Hallet 40 may affect the data, but I don't see that removing it from the file affecting the results. If it easy to see though - go to the "Data" tab and remove all the Hallett R4 entrys.

[michaelmosty]

Al, sorry if I was harsh on my comments. I was a little skeptical. ;^)

First off, it shows Cresson, TWS, and Hallett race 1 + 3's. Dan and James both have 6 laps at 100% and I have 4 (since I missed TWS).
I feel the "data" tab spells it out nicely and it is interesting to see where each person gets their fast lap.
The data tells me that Dan is super fast out of the gate (higher tire pressures), James is fast from the start and stays fast throughout, and I am a slow starter but strong in the middle of the race. (from a fast lap perspective)

Fast Laps:
Dan: lap 2 (x2), 3 (x2), and 7 (x2)
James: lap 2, 4, 9 (x2), 10 (x2)
Michael: lap 5, 7, 8, and 18

It would be nice to color-code the dots for each race to get a little clearer picture.

[GlennCMC70]

I think Dan also uses nitrogen. That will help early race lap times alot. The tire is set closer to ideal pressures since there is not as much compensation needed for growth like there would be for air. So if ideal pressure for best laptimes is 35 hot (just a number i picke out of the blue) and you and I run just air, we may start out at 25-27 and he will start at 30-32 (again, just numbers randomely picked). So who would be faster out the gate? Guy w/ nitrogen - he can make the early race passes w/ ease and confidence since the tire does not change much pressure wise. The tire still needs to be up to temp, and that is easier to do on the warn-up lap w/ higher pressures.
If I'm wrong Dan about the nitrogen, please correct me.

[RichardP]

I think Dan also uses nitrogen.

No. We would if I thought it was an advantage. In my opinion, it doesn't make sense in a series without pit stops. The advantage is controlling the moisture content so you know how much the pressure is going to grow when it heats up. Typically, we have already had each newly mounted tire up to temp and andjusted its pressure before we have a race on it.


Richard P.

[RichardP]

Don't worry, there is a major event coming soon that will have all platforms in attendance that will yeald plenty of great data.

Last I heard, Proctor and Mosty aren't going to be there. Nieither are Wurtz, Kellam, or Burch...


Richard P.

[GlennCMC70]

So data form anyone else is not worth anything?

[RichardP]

So data form anyone else is not worth anything?

I don't personally have a good feel for the relative capabilities of the other competitors that will be there.


Richard P.

[Sidney]

I don't personally have a good feel for the relative capabilities of the other competitors that will be there.


Richard P.

I do! Ander's, Kent, Derek, and Bob are the fastest guys out there in CMC and Glenn/Adam would agree. The data from Ander's S197, Kent's LT1, Derek's LS1, and Bob's 3rd gen is as good as it gets.

Sidney

[RichardP]

I do! Ander's, Kent, Derek, and Bob are the fastest guys out there in CMC and Glenn/Adam would agree. The data from Ander's S197, Kent's LT1, Derek's LS1, and Bob's 3rd gen is as good as it gets.

Sidney

Wouldn't it be cool if we could run them all together to verify...


Richard P.

[Sidney]

Wouldn't it be cool if we could run them all together to verify...


Richard P.

They'll all be at Mid-Ohio on September 6th!

[RichardP]

They'll all be at Mid-Ohio on September 6th!

"all"??? All of what? There are only 9 CMC cars signed up...


Richard P.

[Sidney]

And who's fault is that? The fastest guys in CMC are registered. Those that aren't can't complain. Either get to Mid-Ohio or shut up.

Sidney

[GlennCMC70]

And who's fault is that? The fastest guys in CMC are registered. Those that aren't can't complain. Either get to Mid-Ohio or shut up.

Sidney

Write the check and I'll be there.

[BlueFirePony]

And who's fault is that? The fastest guys in CMC are registered. Those that aren't can't complain. Either get to Mid-Ohio or shut up.

Sidney
Really !? So attending the Nationals is now a requirement to have a voice or influence on the rule set! Really!???
So the premise is that an S197 and 3 Camaro's racing at Mid-Ohio in a class of 9 cars will settle the brand parity argument being discussed regardless of regional participation - thus setting the direction of future rule changes? Excellent - no reason to actually spend any effort on these things ..... let's just let the loudest voice or the biggest wallet do it.
That's a perfect way to resolve these things. I guess I was wrong all along - no sense in spending time actually conducting side-by-side tests of the ABS in AI and then getting feedback. Apparently you just need to show up at Nats have a beer and it's done.
Wonder how that logic would play out if Nats finds it way to oh..say Austin for 5 years? Or California?

[michaelmosty]

Sidney, is Bob running his 3rd gen or a 4th gen?
Glenn, not sure what great data we will get from Nationals considering the 9 cars registered consist of 2 S197's and the rest 4th gens (depending on what Bob drives).
Hmmm.

[GlennCMC70]

Sidney, is Bob running his 3rd gen or a 4th gen?
Glenn, not sure what great data we will get from Nationals considering the 9 cars registered consist of 2 S197's and the rest 4th gens (depending on what Bob drives).
Hmmm.

I had no idea what/who was signed up for Nats when I said that. Any data will be useless.

[RichardP]

Dan Allford and Red Shift Racing will be there at NASA Nationals in the #82 Camaro. We've done a lot of prep work and we are extremely confident of a top ten finish...


Richard P.

[rpoz27]

Really !? So attending the Nationals is now a requirement to have a voice or influence on the rule set! Really!???
So the premise is that an S197 and 3 Camaro's racing at Mid-Ohio in a class of 9 cars will settle the brand parity argument being discussed regardless of regional participation - thus setting the direction of future rule changes? Excellent - no reason to actually spend any effort on these things ..... let's just let the loudest voice or the biggest wallet do it.
That's a perfect way to resolve these things. I guess I was wrong all along - no sense in spending time actually conducting side-by-side tests of the ABS in AI and then getting feedback. Apparently you just need to show up at Nats have a beer and it's done.
Wonder how that logic would play out if Nats finds it way to oh..say Austin for 5 years? Or California?

Finally someone else gets it! Welcome to the light.

[AllZWay]

And who's fault is that? The fastest guys in CMC are registered. Those that aren't can't complain. Either get to Mid-Ohio or shut up.

Sidney

Sidney... You guys are fortunate that the "national" event is in your own backyard. It makes no sense for most of us to spend more money to make a single event than I do racing an entire season. Maybe the the national event will come closer to us and more of us can afford to make it.

[roadracerwhite]

Bob will have his third gen, the fourth gen is no where close to being ready.

I don't think it matters where nationals is at as far as CMC is concerned, if it isn't a destination track on your bucket list CMC will have a low turnout. We all are just too cheap to drive across country for anything less. If it is in Texas next year, it will probably be a great event for CMC, so lets hope it is in Texas.

Bryan

[Sidney]

...Any data will be useless.

You're so full of shit and you know it. If you had the cash to be there you'd have a completely different view. I really thought you got it...guess not.

The point I was trying to make is any amatuer series can only use their National Championship as a check for rules equity. This is not Grand Am or Nascar where all teams race every weekend. These organizations can make rules changes weekly to make sure one brand isn't out performing another. NASA can only compare cars at Nationals, SCCA can only compare cars at the Runoffs, IT classes can only compare at the ARRC at Road Atlanta. You can't make rules changes based on data only received from Texas cars.

Sidney

[GlennCMC70]

You're so full of shit and you know it. If you had the cash to be there you'd have a completely different view. I really thought you got it...guess not.

The point I was trying to make is any amatuer series can only use their National Championship as a check for rules equity. This is not Grand Am or Nascar where all teams race every weekend. These organizations can make rules changes weekly to make sure one brand isn't out performing another. NASA can only compare cars at Nationals, SCCA can only compare cars at the Runoffs, IT classes can only compare at the ARRC at Road Atlanta. You can't make rules changes based on data only received from Texas cars.

Sidney

Understand sarcasm when you see it. You obviously don't know me very well.
Any data is good data as long as you know the limits of what it is telling you. That includes regional data as well. Nationals is not special in that regard. And I'm not sure why you think rules are made/changed based on Texas.... If that was the case, you wouln't have 13" 4 pistom brakes in CMC. No wings either. And alot of S-197 rules have changed w/out a single one here in TX.

For someone who isnt racing in CMC (sold your car right?), you seem to have alot of strong and public opinions these days. Where was all this when it affected you?

[Sidney]

Understand sarcasm when you see it. You obviously don't know me very well.
Any data is good data as long as you know the limits of what it is telling you. That includes regional data as well. Nationals is not special in that regard. And I'm not sure why you think rules are made/changed based on Texas.... If that was the case, you wouln't have 13" 4 pistom brakes in CMC. No wings either. And alot of S-197 rules have changed w/out a single one here in TX.

For someone who isnt racing in CMC (sold your car right?), you seem to have alot of strong and public opinions these days. Where was all this when it affected you?

Unfortunately NASA Nationals is that special as it's the one event that can be considered the place where the best drivers race together. If you don't agree with that then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

So what Region wanted 13" 4 piston brakes? Sure wasn't GL/MW.

The Mustang rules were changed because the leaders drive F-bodies and no one in Texas was going to bitch at them about putting them on 235's!

You obviously don't know me either as the 12 seasons that I had a comp license I posted/emailed/called/attended rules meeting...etc often.

Sidney

[AllZWay]

Unfortunately NASA Nationals is that special as it's the one event that can be considered the place where the best drivers race together. If you don't agree with that then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Sidney

I think many will disagree... racing with a handful of cars with only a few of those actually competitive is hardly worthy of a "national" race. IMHO

[ShadowBolt]

I think many will disagree... racing with a handful of cars with only a few of those actually competitive is hardly worthy of a "national" race. IMHO

I'm with you James. Nationals has not been the place to race the best of the best in CMC. Hallett a few years ago when we had guys from three or four regions may not have had every top driver in the country but it had ten times the total talent any Nats has had.
The driver many consider to be the best in Texas has never even been to a national event. That may be true for other regions as well.
JJ

[GlennCMC70]

I'm with you James. Nationals has not been the place to race the best of the best in CMC. Hallett a few years ago when we had guys from three or four regions may not have had every top driver in the country but it had ten times the total talent any Nats has had.
The driver many consider to be the best in Texas has never even been to a national event. That may be true for other regions as well.
JJ

I'll have to say the best I know of was the first Nats. 23 cars.

[ShadowBolt]

I'll have to say the best I know of was the first Nats. 23 cars.

Before my time.

JJ

[BryanL]

Unfortunately NASA Nationals is that special as it's the one event that can be considered the place where the best drivers race together. If you don't agree with that then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

So what Region wanted 13" 4 piston brakes? Sure wasn't GL/MW.

The Mustang rules were changed because the leaders drive F-bodies and no one in Texas was going to bitch at them about putting them on 235's!

You obviously don't know me either as the 12 seasons that I had a comp license I posted/emailed/called/attended rules meeting...etc often.

Sidney
Yep-we will have to disagree about Nats. It would be great to be able to consider it the place where all the best drivers of the country race together but that just isn't the case.

Probably could agree on the 4 piston brakes though-that wasn't the Texas Region.

That being said, I can't wait for Dan to bring home the trophy!!!!!

[BlueFirePony]

. . .
The point I was trying to make is any amatuer series can only use their National Championship as a check for rules equity. This is not Grand Am or Nascar where all teams race every weekend. These organizations can make rules changes weekly to make sure one brand isn't out performing another. NASA can only compare cars at Nationals, SCCA can only compare cars at the Runoffs, IT classes can only compare at the ARRC at Road Atlanta. You can't make rules changes based on data only received from Texas cars.

Sidney
Sidney, I agree that data from Nationals should be used as a data point, but I don't agree that it is the only data point, nor the most important.
NASA's business model, as I understand it, depends on growing regional participation and stabilizing regional competition - NASA gains credibility with the National event and it should factor in, but not be THE driver (pun).
The sports design (everything from rule set to promotion to operations) NEEDS to drive regional participation and competition.
Platform parity affects every race in every region all year long...get it wrong and the business suffers in orders of magnitude more than just low participation at National level.
Using National data alone will not translate regionally. Using regional data AND national data will translate regionally AND nationally.
It's easier to talk over a long weekend with a dozen or so drivers but its better to spend time analyzing data from a dozen or so regions over a reasonable period of time.
Seems the rules in CMC to support the S197 in general and big brakes specifically are a case in point, yes?

[GlennCMC70]

Sidney, I agree that data from Nationals should be used as a data point, but I don't agree that it is the only data point, nor the most important.
NASA's business model, as I understand it, depends on growing regional participation and stabilizing regional competition - NASA gains credibility with the National event and it should factor in, but not be THE driver (pun).
The sports design (everything from rule set to promotion to operations) NEEDS to drive regional participation and competition.
Platform parity affects every race in every region all year long...get it wrong and the business suffers in orders of magnitude more than just low participation at National level.
Using National data alone will not translate regionally. Using regional data AND national data will translate regionally AND nationally.
It's easier to talk over a long weekend with a dozen or so drivers but its better to spend time analyzing data from a dozen or so regions over a reasonable period of time.
Seems the rules in CMC to support the S197 in general and big brakes specifically are a case in point, yes?

Someone see the big picture.
Nice post.

What was this thread about again?

[RichardP]

What was this thread about again?


It started as a joke trying to "scientifically" infer relative testosterone levels of Mustang and Camaro drivers based on non-direct and questionable (or outright bogus) "data." It's actually pretty funny that parity discussions were tacked onto this thread rather than any of the other relevant threads...


Richard P.

[edrock96GT]

I think many will disagree... racing with a handful of cars with only a few of those actually competitive is hardly worthy of a "national" race. IMHO

Same. Nat's isn't a gathering of the best drivers. It's the ones with the most money.

If only the drivers had to show up and there was a 302S waiting there for everyone, Rehagen Racing wouldn't just show up and steal the AI purse.

[rpoz27]

Same. Nat's isn't a gathering of the best drivers. It's the ones with the most money.

If only the drivers had to show up and there was a 302S waiting there for everyone, Rehagen Racing wouldn't just show up and steal the AI purse.

Ed, small fields are a fact of the "budget" classes like CMC and Spec944. The more well funded classes like AI and ST are not short of talent at nationals. Trust me!

[GlennCMC70]

Same. Nat's isn't a gathering of the best drivers. It's the ones with the most money.

If only the drivers had to show up and there was a 302S waiting there for everyone, Rehagen Racing wouldn't just show up and steal the AI purse.

Not the most money, just those willing to spend alot to go. I went 4 times and didn't have the coin to do it 3 of those times. Paying for that now.

[GlennCMC70]

Ed, small fields are a fact of the "budget" classes like CMC and Spec944. The more well funded classes like AI and ST are not short of talent at nationals. Trust me!

CMC had 23 the first year. I bet if it gets moved to KS, we would see 30 car fields in CMC.

[edrock96GT]

...The more well funded classes like AI and ST are not short of talent at nationals. Trust me!

Exactly my point. The well funded guys within said classes can go to nationals. The rest of us (you as well, I know) who spend years to transform their once daily driver cars into race cars in their garages during the time they're not at work using the money they have left over from work after paying bills that do everything they can to be competitive at the regional level don't really have much of a chance against Grand Am teams and drivers that moonlight as "grassroots" racers.

[michaelmosty]

CMC had 23 the first year. I bet if it gets moved to KS, we would see 30 car fields in CMC.
Agreed. If it were in Kansas, I'd be there.
Leaving Tue after work to get there for Wed practice and then be home super late Sunday night would be do-able for me. Missing 3 days of work is a lot easier than missing 6!!!

[BADVENM]

Only 8 cars registered in CMC for Nationals, one of which is a Mustang and isnt the current champion.

[GlennCMC70]

I think I always took 10 days for Nats. I always wanted to be there Monday morning. Get settled. Gives you a day incase you have issues in route. Tuesday is good for running erands and getting your space set-up. Wed for practice and whatever cause Thursday is starts counting. By Sunday evening, last thing you want to do is start driving home. We would drive until sundown and say the night somewhere. Made for a long Monday, and worked Tuesday if you thought you could pull it off.

[ShadowBolt]

The whole Nats deal is BS. This is supposed to be grassroots racing and we are supposed to be grassroots racers. If you insist on having a National race have it change locations every year. Once in each region changing every year. East Coast, West Coast, Midwest, Miller, Texas, and Barber in the Southeast. How many Cal. racers are going to drive to Mid Ohio? I assumed the Cal. guys would make the race at Miller but it's still over 700 miles for them. Miller and Mid Ohio are over 1250 miles for Team Jordan. The money is not as big a deal as the time off for me (but the money with fuel at $4.00 is a big deal). As a married racer my wife does not want her vacation time away from our business spent at a race track! Lets face it we are reagional racers and CMC has no real National champion with eight cars showing up at Nationals. I still contend and would be willing to bet that the best CMC racer in the country has never even been to Nationals.


JJ

[Adam Ginsberg]

The whole Nats deal is BS. This is supposed to be grassroots racing and we are supposed to be grassroots racers. If you insist on having a National race have it change locations every year. Once in each region changing every year. East Coast, West Coast, Midwest, Miller, Texas, and Barber in the Southeast.

Jerry - to put it simply, you completely underestimate what it takes to pull off a successful, National event with over 400 drivers. Moving it around each year would not only be a logistical nightmare, but also make it difficult for NASA to negotiate with various tracks when they want to hold it around the same time each year.

Something you also don't get - people were asking, no, demanding a NASA National event, since I got involved in 2003.

While you may not agree with the Nats, there are many who do. You are clearly voting with your wallet, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Don't call the Nats BS.....it's not. That's a very myopic point of view.


How many Cal. racers are going to drive to Mid Ohio? I assumed the Cal. guys would make the race at Miller but it's still over 700 miles for them. Miller and Mid Ohio are over 1250 miles for Team Jordan. The money is not as big a deal as the time off for me (but the money with fuel at $4.00 is a big deal). As a married racer my wife does not want her vacation time away from our business spent at a race track! Lets face it we are reagional racers and CMC has no real National champion with eight cars showing up at Nationals.

IMO, it's no different that winning a race, or a regional championship - at a minimum, you must start to be able to finish. I don't believe for one minute that only those with deep pockets can make it to the Nats. It takes will, determination, drive, sacrifice, and yes, $$$.

I've attended 3 National events as a competitor (and 3 times as an official), and each time, it took sacrifice to get there. Sacrifice in not attending a regional event (or two, or three!) to save $$, sacrifice in saving up enough vacation time to make the haul, sacrifice in spending time with the family, etc. In each case (2006, 2007, and 2010), I planned a full year in advance, and was never 100% sure I'd make the event due to any number of circumstances. And yes, money was one of those circumstances.


I still contend and would be willing to bet that the best CMC racer in the country has never even been to Nationals.

What does that have to do with anything? That's like saying the best F1 driver hasn't competed yet because they haven't been offered a ride with Ferrari, or RBR.

[mitchntx]

I no longer have any dog in this fight, but be forewarned ...

It appears you guys are being "baited" into an arguement.
I realized it on a different site and backed out.

I don't know what the agenda is now, but its not so different than what was witnessed several years ago.

Don't play the game ...

Edited for clarity

[Adam Ginsberg]

I no longer have any dog in this fight, but be forewarned ...

It appears you guys are being "baited" into an arguement.
I realized it on a different site and backed out.

I don't know what the agenda is now, but its not so different than what was witnessed several years ago.

Don't play the game ...

Edited for clarity

Wow - quite the conspiracy theorist.

[ShadowBolt]

Jerry - to put it simply, you completely underestimate what it takes to pull off a successful, National event with over 400 drivers. Moving it around each year would not only be a logistical nightmare, but also make it difficult for NASA to negotiate with various tracks when they want to hold it around the same time each year.

Something you also don't get - people were asking, no, demanding a NASA National event, since I got involved in 2003.

While you may not agree with the Nats, there are many who do. You are clearly voting with your wallet, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Don't call the Nats BS.....it's not. That's a very myopic point of view.



IMO, it's no different that winning a race, or a regional championship - at a minimum, you must start to be able to finish. I don't believe for one minute that only those with deep pockets can make it to the Nats. It takes will, determination, drive, sacrifice, and yes, $$$.

I've attended 3 National events as a competitor (and 3 times as an official), and each time, it took sacrifice to get there. Sacrifice in not attending a regional event (or two, or three!) to save $$, sacrifice in saving up enough vacation time to make the haul, sacrifice in spending time with the family, etc. In each case (2006, 2007, and 2010), I planned a full year in advance, and was never 100% sure I'd make the event due to any number of circumstances. And yes, money was one of those circumstances.



What does that have to do with anything? That's like saying the best F1 driver hasn't competed yet because they haven't been offered a ride with Ferrari, or RBR.

The NASA Nats are BS to me and I stand by it. How much planning it takes makes no difference. How hard the people at NASA work to put it on makes no difference to those of us that don't go. If it's worth it to have it at all its worth it to move it around so every racer can have a better chance to run them. You say it's worth all the planning, time off from work and money, but most don't agree.....at least not in CMC or you would have 50-70 car fields. I'm sure some people wanted NASA to have a Nats and love running them but for most of us it's BS. Even if you don't like hearing it Adam. If I was wrong you would have four times the entries!

Last my statement about the best driver not ever going to Nats......all I was saying is in most sports the champion is the best or at least the one of the very best. Because of the distance to NASA Nats a lot of guys will never make the trip so as far as CMC is concerned the best drivers may never make it to a National event. The guys that do go can't do anything about this and I don't mean to take anything away from them. All they can do is race all that show up.

I'm not going to fight with Adam on this Mitch but this is JMHO and I still get to have one in this country......at least for now.


JJ

[mitchntx]

I'm not going to fight with Adam on this Mitch but this is JMHO and I still get to have one in this country......at least for now.


JJ

He's definitely trolling for something.


I agree with your points.

For a series that is (or was) a budget oriented series, CMC Nats is a social event, not a king of the mountain contest.
Many of the most talented CMC participants have limited time, limited funds and/or limited budgets.

I was there twice and all that planning yielded a botched start one year and a cluster-f*^k finish the other.

[Adam Ginsberg]

Holy shit, you have serious issues, Mitch. I'm not attempting to "bait" or troll anyone into anything. Good lord, calm the hell down.

Jerry, you are 100% correct - the champion is the best, or at least one of the very best. And no one said you couldn't have your opinion, so don't put words in my mouth.

In ALL sports, the champion is the one who shows up, and bests everyone else in attendance that day/race. At a regional level, a single event weekend, down to one single race.....the best is determined by who shows up, takes the green flag, and crossed the checker first. Those that don't attend can't ever be a race winner, or champion - that is my point.

Saying a champion out of 8 drivers isn't really a champion because "the best CMC driver hasn't attended the Nationals" is disingenuous, and takes everything away from those that worked their asses off to be there.

[BlueFirePony]

In ALL sports, the champion is the one who shows up, and bests everyone else in attendance that day/race. .
<chomp>
Playing a bit loose there trying to set up your argument. "ALL sports"?? "That day/race"??? Uhmmm, no!?
Most autosports (F1, Grand Am, ....) have a year long points system and even NASCAR has a 10 race "tourney" over many months. Hockey, basketball and baseball have tournaments with multi-game elimination series. In professional sports the series approach is certainly motivated by $ but even amateur versions have similar series approaches where feasable because it is the preferred approach from a sports design perspective.

To Jerry's point....so "people" demanded a National event? I bet a bunch more would demand free beer and backrubs if that's all it takes.
Over 400 drivers attend Nationals...how many don't?

Again, I sure hope the regional business folks are ahead of this (I am sure Dave and Revkah are...just don't know the others). Take a poll of the people who do NOT go to Nationals and I am sure they are less concerned about who gets the paper crown of "National Champion" than they are with regional success (both business and competition).
Formalizing and celebrating events like Hallet as the "Summer Shootout" is the way to go IMO. Not sure Hallet is the only/best place to do it but if it is it then it needs to be super-hyped - I really think this is where the energy needs to be focused. Regional growth is the key to NASA continuing to be successful. List three things about NASA that you would tell someone who was interested in putting a car on track (DE, TT or race)...would Nationals even be something you'd bring up in the initial conversation? If so you are probably wasting an opportunity...It's not in my elevator pitch that's for sure.
</chomp>

[roadracerwhite]

I have asked about the Midwest region doing a crossover at Hallet, unfortunately during the same time the Midwest region goes to Gingerman and the Great Lakes region goes to Grattan. For us to do a crossover with Texas and Rocky Mountain at Hallet it would be best for us if it was in late October. Of course sometimes we go to Hallet anyway, this year didn't work out for a bunch of people.

Bryan

[GlennCMC70]

I have asked about the Midwest region doing a crossover at Hallet, unfortunately during the same time the Midwest region goes to Gingerman and the Great Lakes region goes to Grattan. For us to do a crossover with Texas and Rocky Mountain at Hallet it would be best for us if it was in late October. Of course sometimes we go to Hallet anyway, this year didn't work out for a bunch of people.

Bryan

I think it would make more sence to crossover w/ the central region for you and us. At the same event would be even better.

Nationals does have a "play-off" format - sort of. Sure, the Champ is crowned based off the results of a single race, but there are 2 races prior that set the stage. You can run all the Regional races you want, but none of them give you the National Title.

[rpoz27]

I was there twice and all that planning yielded a botched start one year and a cluster-f*^k finish the other.

Should have run AI at miller in 2009....THAT was a cluster-f*^k!!!!!

Nats has become a consortium of spending celebration and highlighting of Pro Teams kicking the little guy's ass. In otherwords, it's no longer fun to go compete with wallets much bigger than yours. If you just want to go and experience a new track or drink beer with your racing buddies in your class....the regional events seem to handle that just fine....and for a helluva lot less $$$$.

[AllZWay]

IMCA has a large national event every year that is way larger than NASA's. It is called the Super Nationals and it does crown a champion...but only of that race. It is huge money payout, but also huge money cost and a week of racing.

They crown an overall National champion from a national point system based on regional champion points. I am not saying it is better, but it is different. Not many organizations crown a champion from a single event.

[MHISSTC]

You can run all the Regional races you want, but none of them give you the National Title.


In ALL sports, the champion is the one who shows up, and bests everyone else in attendance that day/race. At a regional level, a single event weekend, down to one single race.....the best is determined by who shows up, takes the green flag, and crossed the checker first. Those that don't attend can't ever be a race winner, or champion - that is my point.

Saying a champion out of 8 drivers isn't really a champion because "the best CMC driver hasn't attended the Nationals" is disingenuous, and takes everything away from those that worked their asses off to be there.

Darn right! We worked hard, saved hard, and did the best we could with what we had. In 2009 we met our goal of successfully competing in and finishing a Nationals event. We had the same goal in 2010, but due to a series of (un)fortunate circumstances, we were able to walk away with an unexpected 3rd place finish. Are we widely recognized as the third best CMC team in the United States? Not even close, because we're not. Were we the third best team in CMC at that moment? Yes we were. It's in the record books and no one can dispute it. I have a trophy and an immense sense of accomplishment to go with it that made all the hard work and sacrifice worthwhile. We're making Miller in 2013 our #1 priority and plan on making another go at it. We hope as many people as possible also make it a high priority.

We view our regional events as more of the "social events" as we are competing and hanging out with our friends. We do our best not to miss any of them. Any other out of state or out of region events fall further down our priority list and we will make those as resources allow. I will say that while resources are still limited, making it a team effort with more than one person contributing funds, time, and talent, has brought more events within the realm of possibility.

[Rob Liebbe]

Darn right! We worked hard, saved hard, and did the best we could with what we had. In 2009 we met our goal of successfully competing in and finishing a Nationals event. We had the same goal in 2010, but due to a series of (un)fortunate circumstances, we were able to walk away with an unexpected 3rd place finish. Are we widely recognized as the third best CMC team in the United States? Not even close, because we're not. Were we the third best team in CMC at that moment? Yes we were. It's in the record books and no one can dispute it. I have a trophy and an immense sense of accomplishment to go with it that made all the hard work and sacrifice worthwhile. We're making Miller in 2013 our #1 priority and plan on making another go at it. We hope as many people as possible also make it a high priority.

We view our regional events as more of the "social events" as we are competing and hanging out with our friends. We do our best not to miss any of them. Any other out of state or out of region events fall further down our priority list and we will make those as resources allow. I will say that while resources are still limited, making it a team effort with more than one person contributing funds, time, and talent, has brought more events within the realm of possibility.

Well stated, I agree.

Oh, and everyone calm down. I miss being at the events and seeing all my friends, having a good time, helping each other out while simultaneously trying to kick their butt on the track. That's what attracts me to the Texas AI/CMC group and is constantly pulling at me to get my act together and come back out. You can definitely tell by the tone of the threads that it has been a long time since the last regional race in Texas. Now go to Eagle's Canyon, have a big group hug, race cars, and drink beer.

[Storm Trooper]

Well stated, I agree.

Oh, and everyone calm down. I miss being at the events and seeing all my friends, having a good time, helping each other out while simultaneously trying to kick their butt on the track. That's what attracts me to the Texas AI/CMC group and is constantly pulling at me to get my act together and come back out. You can definitely tell by the tone of the threads that it has been a long time since the last regional race in Texas. Now go to Eagle's Canyon, have a big group hug, race cars, and drink beer.
:D

[Al Fernandez]

Nationals is awesome. Its not for everyone, since it is such a big dollar and big spend of vacation time, but the overwhelming majority of those that have gone loved it. The best part is if it isnt for you, no big deal, just dont go and dont worry about it. :) Man I cant wait for ECR!!