TWS Videos....post em' here....

[AI#97]

I will start....

Only one I got on tape was race 3 in the rain.....which was interesting!!! Sorry about the sound cutting out down the front straight but the camera head is getting lose and I need a more vibration free mount.

www.aggie97.com/rain.mpg Dialup forget about it! 175 meg....I also don't overdub music because the motor makes some beautiful tunes all on it's own!!!

MW

[TEXAST1]

Parts of my race 3 were interesting. How do I post it? :oops:

[TEXAST1]

1. I don't see how Morgan blocked Jay out. You were passing him just before the entrance to the front strait and he had to wait to pass. :roll:

2. I think Pete in the Green Meanie would do better to use your car as a wind block and look for a different passing opportunity. You Moostang has be taking up all of the open air in front of his little Lotus or Chateram.

[donovan]

www.donovanracing.com/Micah_Bishop_TWS_Aug_6_2006_Small.wmv 5 megs

www.donovanracing.com/Micah_Bishop_TWS_Aug_6_2006_Large.wmv 14 megs

I will have my incar done in a few days!

[AI#97]

1. I don't see how Morgan blocked Jay out. You were passing him just before the entrance to the front strait and he had to wait to pass. :roll:

2. I think Pete in the Green Meanie would do better to use your car as a wind block and look for a different passing opportunity. You Moostang has be taking up all of the open air in front of his little Lotus or Chateram.

1. Honestly, I thought Jay was pissed about ME...not morgan because I WAS holding him up and somewhat on purpose...rolling pick so to speak!

2. Yeah, I am sure he enjoyed riding around in the Vortex behind my car...what was interesting is that I was about to bump the 6500 rpm rev limiter going into 1 on the start and that calcs out to 133mph!!! Why on earth were we doing that?!!! :lol:

[michaelmosty]

I didn't have a digital camera @ TWS and was hoping that someone would be able to e-mail me any pictures they took of my car after the front-right tire decided to come apart. E-mail is michaelmosty at hotmail dot com.
It is always interesting to share the damage so feel free to post them in the photo gallery if wanted.
Thanks in advance!!

[mitchntx]

1. I don't see how Morgan blocked Jay out. You were passing him just before the entrance to the front strait and he had to wait to pass. :roll:

2. I think Pete in the Green Meanie would do better to use your car as a wind block and look for a different passing opportunity. You Moostang has be taking up all of the open air in front of his little Lotus or Chateram.

1. Honestly, I thought Jay was pissed about ME...not morgan because I WAS holding him up and somewhat on purpose...rolling pick so to speak!


OK note to self ...

Move over and park to allow Matt White and Jay Matus by.

Anyone else?

[AI#97]

Oh, you don't have to park it!!! Jay was running very similar lap times to me this weekend or vice versa. It was actually some fun racing but if you watch the last lap in my mirror going on to the straight, I moved out to pass morgan and left jay room....but I think he got into a puddle and couldn't accelerate.

All I know is that Jay was steaming hot mad at Morgan and Kevin and I can't figure out why. Given the outcome/events in Race 4 with Jay, I think "there was something wrong with the car".... :wink:

[donovan]

I talked with Jay after R4 and he told me he had too many heat cycles in his tires and learned a bit about the tires he was running.

I think he said he went off two or three times because of the tires going away!

DD

[AI#97]

I talked with Jay after R4 and he told me he had too many heat cycles in his tires and learned a bit about the tires he was running.

I think he said he went off two or three times because of the tires going away!

DD

From my vantage point about 18" off his bumper in T1 in race 4.....I think he was pushing harder than the car could go. :wink: I would think Jay has been around long enough to know how to drive around an aging set of tires. I think he was just doing what he could to stay in front of the "Moosetang" as Kevin puts it. I guess I need to trim down the endplates on this wing?! The more I look at it, it does look sort of Moose like!!! I guess "MOOSE" would be a better nickname than the "Silver Slut"...? :wink: :lol:

[y5e06]

Jay was steaming hot mad at Morgan

Great to find that out on the internet.


Move over and park to allow ... Jay Matus by.

Apparently thats what he would prefer.

I don't race out of class cars. Hell, I can barely race any within class cars. Why the hell would I want to F*** w/ someone elses race?

[AI#97]

Jay was steaming hot mad at Morgan

Great to find that out on the internet.


Move over and park to allow ... Jay Matus by.

Apparently thats what he would prefer.

I don't race out of class cars. Hell, I can barely race any within class cars. Why the hell would I want to F*** w/ someone elses race?

Morgan, don't worry about it...you and I talked about our deal in R1.....Jay was just frustrated most likely at an ill handling car and for some reason was taking it out on you. If he had ANYONE to bitch about it would have been me. I was going to make him earn the pass because he was a great buffer between CM and myself and we were running nearly identical lap times so it's not like he was 3 seconds faster and I should let him by... had I done so, I would have had to pass him again anyway! :wink:

[AI#97]

Parts of my race 3 were interesting. How do I post it? :oops:

Can you get it onto the computer? If so, I will see if can setup a secondary user account for you on my page and you can upload them and host them that way.... I have 10gig of storage and 80gig of bandwidth I ain't using so we could try that....

[donovan]

www.donovanracing.com/DonovanRace2TWS.wmv Race 2 (99 megs)

David D

[Mike Bell]

1. I don't see how Morgan blocked Jay out. You were passing him just before the entrance to the front strait and he had to wait to pass. :roll:

2. I think Pete in the Green Meanie would do better to use your car as a wind block and look for a different passing opportunity. You Moostang has be taking up all of the open air in front of his little Lotus or Chateram.

1. Honestly, I thought Jay was pissed about ME...not morgan because I WAS holding him up and somewhat on purpose...rolling pick so to speak!


OK note to self ...

Move over and park to allow Matt White and Jay Matus by.

Anyone else?

FK that. They want to come race with Group 5 and then bitch when a CMC car holds them up in the twisties??? Yeah, right. Take it back to your own run group then. :roll:

[AI#97]

www.donovanracing.com/DonovanRace2TWS.wmv Race 2 (99 megs)

David D

I figured you would post that one first! How about some 1,3 and 4 action?! CM needs to share his race 1 action too....that was some good stuff right there! :shock:

[donovan]

I will capture those tonight if I get some time...

[AI#97]

I will capture those tonight if I get some time...

No problem David....I am just jones'n for more video....I only had my one video from the weekend.

I am going to look at a new camera tonight that is all digital and stores the videos in mpg onto an SD card. With 1 gig SD cards down to $59, this is looking better since you never buy tapes! You just put the card in the computer and it's ready to go. A guy at the office has one and it's freaking cool.....and it's only $150! I am a little leary of it but he has used the crap out of it and seems to love it....? It sure would make it easy to port to a format to share on the web!

[cmarvel]

[quote="AI#97CM needs to share his race 1 action too....that was some good stuff right there! :shock:[/quote]

I will try to get with Richard tomorrow night and digitize what we have. The camera quit during R2, but I think we got the rest.

I will get them to DD this weekend if I can.

[TEXAST1]

Mike Bell, I would prefer to keep our run group with yours. It it much more fun and challenging. I like working some on the track. This is one of the first races I have not wanted to come off the track from boardom!

Jay has other issues to deal with. Don't sweat it. I wouldn't let him by either, unless it was to make sport of him for a repass.

[Mike Bell]

There were issues with Group 8 and Group 5 running together on a 2.9 mile track, imagine how it's going to be on a 1.7 mile circuit??!!!

I had a bad experience with the Panoz bunch back at MSRH, now again at TWS. Perhaps we should take AI/AIX and put them in Group 8 instead? You guys has some insanely fast lap times in group 8 and racing a CMC car involves quite a bit of momentum driving. Having a Panoz dive under me in the braking zone only to park it at the apex is very frustrating, but when I catch him again under braking a few corners later and wait for him to get it rotated I am no longer a happy camper.

While I'm glad you guys had fun (really, I am) up front I'm also very sorry to see some of these faster cars thrown into our run group. Not a personal jab at you Kevin, just my not so delicately stated opinion as usual. YMMV.

[gt40]

While I'm glad you guys had fun (really, I am) up front I'm also very sorry to see some of these faster cars thrown into our run group. Not a personal jab at you Kevin, just my not so delicately stated opinion as usual. YMMV.I guess it'd be too much to ask them to pass CMC cars coming out of the corner and not going in, huh? :wink:

[AI#97]

I had a bad experience with the Panoz bunch back at MSRH, now again at TWS. YMMV.

I think the best thing that could happen is to have the Panoz drivers hand the keys to a CMC/AI driver and sit in the passenger seat for a session so they can get a feel for what the car can actually do....then maybe they will get out of the way?! they just need the driver mod. I will volunteer my services as said driver as I have driven those cars before.....very fun and don't need to park at the apex! :wink: They will be responsible for cleaning their own helmets! :lol:

[TEXAST1]

While I'm glad you guys had fun (really, I am) up front I'm also very sorry to see some of these faster cars thrown into our run group. Not a personal jab at you Kevin, just my not so delicately stated opinion as usual. YMMV.I guess it'd be too much to ask them to pass CMC cars coming out of the corner and not going in, huh? :wink:

Like I have always preached in class. Fast-in Fast-out with as little disruption as possible. Can't always wait until after the corner, but good judgement should always prevail. :wink:

[GlennCMC70]

any of you CMC guys have any vids???? if you cant post them, crap, mail them to me so i can copy them. i'll return them.

[Rob Liebbe]

Glenn, I got some good footage but it's mostly you just running away from me. Give me your address and I'll send you all 4 races in high quality .wmw file.

[GlennCMC70]

pm on its way.

[donovan]

www.donovanracing.com/MicahRace3Clip.wmv Video from Rob

[Mike Bell]

Dang, looked to me like Libby's car tried to step out on him as well.

[AI#97]

shall I go video some crickets chirping tonight and post that or is the silence in this thread enough?!! :lol:

Post some videos from TWS....please!!!! :P

[jeffburch]

http://www.texicanracing.com/nasatx/JeffBurch/R4_small.wmv

Not much to see.
R1 didn't roll (woulda seen me hand out 2 pair of manties)

jb

[AI#97]

http://www.texicanracing.com/nasatx/JeffBurch/R4_small.wmv

Not much to see.
R1 didn't roll (woulda seen me hand out 2 pair of manties)

jb

Shall We have a ceremony in Houston for that dispersement?! :lol:

This is going to be a long 8 weeks!!!! :shock:

Damn Jeff....one might think you have driven a mustang before!!! Boudy's car sounds great too!!!

[GlennCMC70]

thanks Rob for the vids, got them today.

[jeffburch]

http://www.texicanracing.com/nasatx/JeffBurch/R3_small.wmv

Rain, slow and boring.

jb

[cmarvel]

Sorry Matt, R1 Video should be available soon.

My man-in-motion lifestyle makes hooking up with Richard tough.

[cmarvel]

I have some low quality video from R1,R3,R4 now. Not sure why but the digital version does not look nearly as good as the video tape.

I can FTP to someone if they have space.

[AI#97]

I have some low quality video from R1,R3,R4 now. Not sure why but the digital version does not look nearly as good as the video tape.

I can FTP to someone if they have space.

I will be back in Dallas mid day Saturday.....recovering from too much drinking in Vegas for the rest of the day!

will host when I get back...

[cmarvel]

Roger that. Email at the iracecars.net address with instructions whenever you are ready.

[AI#97]

right click, save as Each is 150 - 180 meg.....glenn, move closer to town buddy!!! :wink:

R1...about the 8:20 mark...that Audi driver needed new shorts!

www.aggie97.com/AI91TWSR1.ASF

R3...what's a little rain???

www.aggie97.com/AI91TWSR3.ASF

R4...don't watch the last 1 minute....it is heart breaking...

www.aggie97.com/AI91TWSR4.ASF

DL all you want...I still have 70 gig of bandwidth to use! :shock:

[chicane23]

WOW, I can see why that motor didn’t last very long.

Chris M. what were you turning that motor to?

[RichardP]

Factory rev limiter still in place.


Richard P.

[CMC17]

Factory rev limiter pulls out timing or fuel? I hope it's timing. If it's fuel, that's bad.. very bad.

.02

[chicane23]

So the stock Rev limiter is 6250. Do you rev them stock blocks to 6000 all the time? It sure sounds high and with the EEC tuner that can be changed.

I know with the gray car it never seen anything over 5500, except once and the push rods looked like spaghetti noodles and that was a miss shift. The dyno sheet on it stops pulling at 5000.
The gray car now has 130,000 miles with a lot of abuse.

Especially yesterday! ;-)

[AI#97]

Factory rev limiter pulls out timing or fuel? I hope it's timing. If it's fuel, that's bad.. very bad.

.02

To me, it sounded like it was detonating that last couple hundred rpm and that would explain a burned piston and the sound it made when it went limp....the rest was just parts chewing on themselves as he got the car stopped. :(

5500 rpm...? Huh, pushrod motors don't like that kind of stuff I guess? Mine pulls to 6500 with gusto over and over and over... :wink:

[RichardP]

The computer turns off injectors at the rev limit. With the injector turned off, the cylinder doesn't go lean, it just doesn't fire. We don't run it to the rev limit (for a bunch of reasons). I was just stating that we can't, by definition, go higher than that under acceleration.

It may have been detonating but there are no signs of it on the plugs or the pistons that are left. Timing is also pulled a bit at the higher rpms to keep the horsepower peak down a bit. The engine was way soft on torque, not power...


Richard P.

[AI#97]

Either way richard it suxx that it blew up. something wasn't right but I guess that is the luck of racing. Hope you guys can find something to make Houston.

[chicane23]

Richard,

What do you think caused the problem?

Did the crank break?

[AI#97]

Richard,

What do you think caused the problem?

Did the crank break?

Chris' description to me was that one whole piston and rod were unaccounted for....I know the car wouldn't hold itself in gear on the trailer so I can only imagine how much carnage there is. I am sure Richard will take pictures if/when he has time. I think chris was saying the intake and valve covers are usable and that might be it! :shock:

[cmarvel]

Much like the last engine, it would appear that the initiating event was the head of a valve comming off and falling into the cylinder. There was some speculation at that point that detonation may have contributed to the valve failure. As far as we know, the piston failure (and all of the other damage) are cascaded results of the valve failure.

Last time I was going slower, and shutting down happened more quickly. This time I was probably above 95 and setting up for turn 2 (according to the DAQ from years ago, I actually never go much below 0.5 G to the left in there. The point is the engine was spinning from the car's forward motion several seconds longer this time due to the higher cockpit workload. I believe that is why the destruction was worse.

Just a point of interest, when Bob Hahn started running a cross exaust everyone thought he was revving much higher too (he was not, I rode in the car). It turns out that there is something about that arrangement that makes it sound higher.

Matt is right about one thing, I did change my shift points mid race in an effort to catch him. As it turns out, I also hit the rev limiter on the start so I know it is working. I never hit the rev limiter again during the race, so our max RPM would have been the stock RPM.

Also worth noting is that I shifted the old engine much lower and still saw the same failure.

Also worthy of note, my 1988 car has 180,000 miles on it. I bounced that car off the rev limiter for most of its life.

I would love to shift at 5500 and be done with it. With a stock bore and stroke, it is tough to make the HP and Torque numbers down there.


BTW, We have not found the piston yet but we found half of the rod. I think I felt it bounce down the bottom of the car just before I reached the grass. I suspect it is just outside turn 2 somewhere.

[donovan]

It sounds like a good set of valves and springs are in order?

David D.
(Yes, I am still alive)

[marshall_mosty]

Chris,
I didn't realize that you blew the piston through the oil pan (or block)... Damage in the mater of 100 revolutions can be severe.

Back in 2003, I was in a car wreck where my '92 Mustang and an Astro Van collided head-on at appromately 45 mph. The timing chain broke and so my engine also decided to let go. I took out the rear four cylinders and the piston has six witness marks on the top of the piston. I still have that piston in my office to this day. It makes for a nice conversation piece when I bring up the following pictures.

http://www.mustangmods.com/ims/u/1280/6362/91681.jpg
http://www.mustangmods.com/ims/u/1280/6362/91682.jpg

[cmarvel]

It sounds like a good set of valves and springs are in order?

David D.
(Yes, I am still alive)

We had the upgraded valve springs all along. After the first failure, we bought the best valves we could find. We were really trying to make sure it did not happen again. It would seem that buying better valves did not prevent the problem.

[AI#97]

Just a point of interest, when Bob Hahn started running a cross exaust everyone thought he was revving much higher too (he was not, I rode in the car). It turns out that there is something about that arrangement that makes it sound higher.


Speaking of motor carnage...

He grenaded a motor going into 7 right in front of Lyons and I....had parts falling out the bottom and I missed what looked like a connecting rod by a couple inches! Not a good weekend for motors.... :(


X pipes do raise the 'pitch' of the motor and I will say that nothing sounds finer than a 4V cobra motor revving to 8k rpm with Long tubes, an x pipe and straight through mufflers!!!

[cmarvel]

Yep, those AS motors are a bit more fragile than an AI motor. There was a time when I was told that the AS guys changed out the crankshaft every 15-20 races as preventative maintainance.

The good side of that is that there is much knowledge that we can glean from the AS guys on what parts are weak links.

[mitchntx]

Speaking of motor carnage...

He grenaded a motor going into 7 right in front of Lyons and I....had parts falling out the bottom and I missed what looked like a connecting rod by a couple inches!


Did you hunt down that connecting rod and give it a good internet keyboard lashing for not getting out of your way?

<stir>

[chicane23]

I would love to shift at 5500 and be done with it. With a stock bore and stroke, it is tough to make the HP and Torque numbers down there.

So you do spin that thing above 5500, I have never seen a stock 5.0 block motor including David A's 347 pull above 5500. Especially being 50oz balanced, not a good combo.

Very interesting and I believe that would explain a whole lot.
Wayne dropped a valve using AFR stuff, I came real close. I did break a stud and a spring.
I have two guys in Okla. that did the same as well.

Have fun!

[cmarvel]

In the old days I knew guys running AS that shifted at 6400 routinely. Some went higher. Those motors had E7 blocks and cast cranks. Tom Himes ran the short block he dragged out of the junk yard for two years without even using an oil cooler or an aftermarket oil pan. Eric Ritchie spent the money and had the big dollar work done, oil cooler, accusump etc. He blew up pretty regularly. Like alot of things, YMMV.

I am not planning to use the AFR heads any more. It may not be their fault, but I think I will try something else when my wallet recovers.

[marshall_mosty]

I think it's all bad juju. You need to call in a religious type to take care of the car's demons. :twisted:

[RichardP]

So you do spin that thing above 5500, I have never seen a stock 5.0 block motor including David A's 347 pull above 5500. Especially being 50oz balanced, not a good combo.

Very interesting and I believe that would explain a whole lot.



Since the short block wasn't the problem, what does that explain?


Richard P.

[AI#97]

Did you hunt down that connecting rod and give it a good internet keyboard lashing for not getting out of your way?

<stir>

Nah...as it was doing it's best to get off line it was waving a point by on which side it wanted chris and I to pass....said connecting rod and I shook hands after the race. Now if you want to discuss the smoke cloud and motor oil on the pavement....I don't like those two guys.

Now if you want to talk about PEOPLE getting out of the way, I kept that to a private discussion with said driver and I will leave it at that.

[mitchntx]

:wink:

[AI#97]

[
Since the short block wasn't the problem, what does that explain?


Richard P.

From the video, it sounded like it dropped a valve, went flat and the carnage ensued from the parts flying around in the combustion chamber.

One thing that will tell you your ideal rev range in each gear is a driveshaft torque loss calculator. You input your dyno pull numbers, usually every 100 rpm and gearing then it will tell you the optimal shift points for the motor. at one time I found that I should have been shifting at 5200 rpm. Granted the front straight at TWS blows that out of the water because you are using every bit of 5th gear you have. Hell, I was turning down the hill into T1 at 5800 rpm in 5th.... .80 and 3.73's.

The real issue at hand is what parts are surviving the rigors of road racing???? It doesn't appear the AFR's are up to the task with either stock valves or the rocker studs. You might try a set of trick flow heads but twisted valve arrangement has it's own issues. For an AI motor, I would almost suggest a set of aluminum GT-40's with a lot of port work and a set of shaft mounted rockers to spread the loads. Then zero balance the rotating assembly, correct the dampener and fly wheel for the balance, good forged rods and pistons and you should have a very reliable motor up to 6500. Keep in mind that shortblock still had Hypereutectic pistons in it...not forged. They are notorious for breaking ring lands at high rpms with a lot of heat.

I hate to say it but engine tech is AI is on a steep upward curve this year and will only get worse next year.... That aluminum 5.4L 4V motor is starting to look like a necessity!! :shock: :twisted:

[donovan]

For an AI motor, I would almost suggest a set of aluminum GT-40's with a lot of port work and a set of shaft mounted rockers to spread the loads. Then zero balance the rotating assembly, correct the dampener and fly wheel for the balance, good forged rods and pistons and you should have a very reliable motor up to 6500.

That engine sounds so very familiar, Hmm...

[AI#97]

That engine sounds so very familiar, Hmm...

David, your setup has been very reliable so you must have done a lot of homework. I can see you getting the ironman award this year again. Wish I could be that consistant but with a relatively untested and not yet proven engine setup....I am dealing with the issues as they come up.


The interesting thing is that next year, there will be 3 mod motor'd cars in AI....if you push rod guys give up....Mods will pretty much OWN AI next year!!! :wink: With the Doc and Mason showing up for the show, AI could get really interesting next year. That's why I keep telling Glenn to 'come on over!'. We are need'n some f-body for dinner!!! :wink:

Heck, if we convince Skip to come back to AI....mod motors will be the majority! Oh how quickly things change!!!! :P

[GlennCMC70]

"I keep tellin' Matt......"
if i convert my CMC car to AI w/ about 100 more HP and 100 less lbs on the nose (diff between an LT1 and LS1 motor) twice the brake (removed from my 98 street car) and more grip, you would bail and go AIX or CMC. you dont want me there, really, you dont. :wink:

sorry guys, i'm liking the $5K a year racing budget just fine. 6 weekends out of a set of Toyo's and almost a full year out of front brake pads ($140 a set) and almost 2 years out of the rears (should last thru Nat's and MSR-H in Oct) is another reason to stay right where i'm @.
but hey, one day i'll pull the restrictor and come play w/ ya. 8)

[AI#97]

"I keep tellin' Matt......"
if i convert my CMC car to AI w/ about 100 more HP and 100 less lbs on the nose (diff between an LT1 and LS1 motor) twice the brake (removed from my 98 street car) and more grip, you would bail and go AIX or CMC. you dont want me there, really, you dont. :wink:

sorry guys, i'm liking the $5K a year racing budget just fine. 6 weekends out of a set of Toyo's and almost a full year out of front brake pads ($140 a set) and almost 2 years out of the rears (should last thru Nat's and MSR-H in Oct) is another reason to stay right where i'm @.
but hey, one day i'll pull the restrictor and come play w/ ya. 8)

IF?....Bring it!....if you can handle it?! :twisted:

and like I said glenn....the season budgets aren't that far apart between AI/CMC....the difference is in the initial investment in building the car. Had I not bought the wing and had the mid season refresh of the motor...I would have only spent about $7k....and that was because I bought an extra set of tires.

In fairness though, I would like to try driving an AI F-body that is podium capable. I would love to see the difference a 2" wider track with an SLA and a gob of low end torque works! :wink: Does that make us mustang drivers the underdog? :wink:

[donovan]

That engine sounds so very familiar, Hmm...

David, your setup has been very reliable so you must have done a lot of homework. I can see you getting the ironman award this year again. Wish I could be that consistant but with a relatively untested and not yet proven engine setup....I am dealing with the issues as they come up.


The interesting thing is that next year, there will be 3 mod motor'd cars in AI....if you push rod guys give up....Mods will pretty much OWN AI next year!!! :wink: With the Doc and Mason showing up for the show, AI could get really interesting next year. That's why I keep telling Glenn to 'come on over!'. We are need'n some f-body for dinner!!! :wink:

Heck, if we convince Skip to come back to AI....mod motors will be the majority! Oh how quickly things change!!!! :P

I did alot of research and talked to lots of people. What you quoted is just about spot on what I found out.

I have not done everything but most of what you stated. My motor is still 50oz balanced, but both my balancer and flywheel have removeable weights for 28oz and Zero Balance for when I get there.

The upper end, is a set of GT-40X Alum. heads, heavy Porting & Polishing. They were also converted to stud mount rockers. The valves were replaced with Del West, the seat presure is a touch above 300(I think), bronze guides and teflon seals, the CAM is a very resonable lift and duration, I have plenty of P-V clearance. The cam was designend for 1.7 rockers, but I'm running 1.6.

Anyway, I could do a few more things to the engine but for now it seems to work well. I have less than $2500 in the long block, not bad for 295hp/315tq, I just need to drop about 250lbs off the car and I'm all set!!

Or about 100 lbs off me, but with my new super secret diet that should not be a problem at all.

David D.

[chicane23]

Since the short block wasn't the problem, what does that explain?

A big bang and oil and water ever where!!

I will not comment further :?

[cmarvel]

Not a particularly technical answer. I thought the question was pretty straight forward.

What does a valve failure have to do with the short block?

I suspect that Ford spent more than a little time in assesing where to place the stock rev limiter. Actually, that is not a guess. Some of my former students worked for Ford programming those EEC-IV systems in the early 90's.

If you have a real technical point to make, please make it. From your post, I must assume that you know something that Ford does not. This seems unlikely to me, but I am always interested in hearing a well supported technical discussion.

[RichardP]

The real issue at hand is what parts are surviving the rigors of road racing???? It doesn't appear the AFR's are up to the task with either stock valves or the rocker studs. You might try a set of trick flow heads but twisted valve arrangement has it's own issues. For an AI motor, I would almost suggest a set of aluminum GT-40's with a lot of port work and a set of shaft mounted rockers to spread the loads.


My AFR heads didn’t have the stock valves or rocker studs. In the April, 2006 issue of Hot Rod there is an article about a GT-40 Aluminum head that lost the head of an exhaust valve and took out the entire short block. There’s nothing special about those heads that would shield anyone from this problem. It was running AI power numbers in the same RPM range I run. The article was basically a dissection to figure out why it happened. They didn’t really come up with anything. Their best guess was worn valve guides. I don’t know if that would cause it but I know my guides were quite pristine.


Richard P.

[donovan]

Richard, are you running a 1.7 or a 1.6 ratio?

I have heard that the 1.7 will wear the guides fast sometimes and can cause the valve to move around, stressing the head of the valve and breaking it off...??

David D.

[RichardP]

1.6 ratio...


Richard P.

[AI#97]

My AFR heads didn’t have the stock valves or rocker studs. In the April, 2006 issue of Hot Rod there is an article about a GT-40 Aluminum head that lost the head of an exhaust valve and took out the entire short block. There’s nothing special about those heads that would shield anyone from this problem. It was running AI power numbers in the same RPM range I run. The article was basically a dissection to figure out why it happened. They didn’t really come up with anything. Their best guess was worn valve guides. I don’t know if that would cause it but I know my guides were quite pristine.


Richard P.

Well, NOTHING is bullit proof and the only guy that knows what really happened is the bastard little gremlin crawling around in there! The only thing I can offer is that a shaft mount rocker setup would create MUCH less "side loading" on the valve stem which will prolong valve guide and valve life. I have never been a fan of the stud or bolt down style because all of the spring load is put on 1 bolt/stud. With a shaft mounted setup, the load is dispersed over 2 or 3 bolts AND the head of the valve is "stabilized" better which helps eliminate or lessen problems. The big problem is that a shaft mount system for SBF's is EXPENSIVE!

What I also find interesting DD is that you said SEAT pressure is 300lbs! WOW! The seat pressure on my setup is around 85-90lbs and open pressure at .500 is a little under 300lbs. lot less stress on the valve as it slams closed!!!

[donovan]

It must be 300 at .500, like what you said... I just remember that when the Head Guy was building them we tried three sets of valve springs to get it right. I still have the other sets in the shop... We had one that was around 345 and one that was 280... and the one that we installed was just a touch over 300, maybe like 310-315... I don't know exactly, but I can check it out, I have it all noted in my engine build book.

Also, using the 1.6 ratio helps, and using good valves and guides, and guide plates, I have heard some people running without guide plates, that just sounds scary.

It sounds like RP had the right stuff, but something failed... its hard to figure out.

[RichardP]

The only thing I can offer is that a shaft mount rocker setup would create MUCH less "side loading" on the valve stem which will prolong valve guide and valve life.


After a year of hard racing with my AFR heads, my valve guides were still perfect. After 140,000 miles and over 60 track events/race events, my stock heads were doing fine also.

Shaft mount might be "better" but I doubt it has any relevance here. I wish I did know what did...


Richard P.

[chicane23]

Not a particularly technical answer. I thought the question was pretty straight forward.

It was very straight forward I was just trying to be nice, but that is now over. ;-) I believe the failure was due to you trying to catch Matt and over driving the shit out of the car to the point of failure.


I suspect that Ford spent more than a little time in assesing where to place the stock rev limiter.
So you say the stock rev limiter is there to be used?

I would like to see your dyno graph that supports you shifting that car at the factroy rev limiter 6250 rpm.


What does a valve failure have to do with the short block?

Over-revving that motor over and over has penalties. Those penalties of over-revving an engine over and over are usually valve floating/bounce (the springs can't close the valves fast enough and keep them closed), increased stress on reciprocating parts which are subjected to greater acceleration, increased vibration and therefore the possibility of major mechanical failure due to metal fatigue. Valve floating/bounce loses power, obviously the engine doesn't work so well if valves are open when they should be shut, but it can also lead to big damage if the valve hits the piston or the valve drops into the cylinder.


Just out of curiosity, I would like to know the number of guys that spin a AI motor (5.0 pushrod) above 5500 rpm?
I know I don't! I have and I have a Sportsman block 327, 0 balanced, with a scat crank & rods. In the current tune it stops pulling at 5300 rpm and my rev limiter was at 5500 and shift light at 5300.

[donovan]

My rev limiter is set to 6000, and I have my shift light set to 5600, I normaly shift around 5500, but sometimes carry it past, on long straights...

David D.

P.S., I have never hit my rev limiter on the track, only on the dyno.

[cmarvel]

Over-revving that motor over and over has penalties. Those penalties of over-revving an engine over and over are usually valve floating/bounce (the springs can't close the valves fast enough and keep them closed), increased stress on reciprocating parts which are subjected to greater acceleration, increased vibration and therefore the possibility of major mechanical failure due to metal fatigue. Valve floating/bounce loses power, obviously the engine doesn't work so well if valves are open when they should be shut, but it can also lead to big damage if the valve hits the piston or the valve drops into the cylinder.


This is all very basic and general information that really does not lend and understanding to the failure mode. Please bear in mind that many of the people on this list are engineers who have an excellent schooling in the basic mechanics of an engine. In my case I have a degree in Materials Engineering, and a very good understanding of both low and high cycle fatigue.

Ford set the rev limiter where they did to avoid warrenty claims, and it is conservative for the short block. The question was what does a short block have to do with a valve failure. You still have not answered that.

Valve float will generally show up on a dyno sheet, and it did not. If an otherwise good valve failed in fatigue, we would expect to see incipient failures on the other valves. There are none. As for valves being open when they should be shut, after the destruction started this did happen. Those valves that hit pistons all bent (no cracks or other broken valves).

This leads us to the conclusion that there was something differnt going on in the cylinder that failed.

So far the most likely explanation seems to be detonation, and the subsequent damage to that cylinder. Thanks to Matt for passing on that observation!

[marshall_mosty]

I have my shift light set at 5600 and will anticipate the light so it's only on for a fraction of a second. At MSR-H on the long straight before the sweeper, I will run it to 5800 or so as it will be on for a few seconds. Now that I have a better 5th gear, I may short shift to keep it to the 5600 RPM. We'll have to experiment and see what the car likes.

The only time I pull the shift point down is if I'm having oil temp problems. If that occurs, I will set the light for 5300 and shift by 5500. Since I'm no "pro" at any of this, I'm still learning the right way, the wrong way, and MY way. 8)

[chicane23]

...many of the people on this list are engineers.... I have a degree in Materials Engineering
Congrats I'm sure everyone is proud ;-) I know my parents are!


Ford set the rev limiter where they did to avoid warrenty claims, and it is conservative for the short block.
Per a Ford engineer with a degree. He explained that the stock short block should have a shift point of 5500-5700 max. With a modified motor that will change with cam specs (we all know this), but repeated abuse will take its toll on the crank.


The question was what does a short block have to do with a valve failure. You still have not answered that.
First off…valve drops engine stops working…. :-) Originally, I was told that the cranks failed and that was the original thought of over spinning the motor to much.


If an otherwise good valve failed in fatigue, we would expect to see incipient failures on the other valves. There are none
If it was the exhaust valve that dropped then that could have been due to a lean condition, and again causing fatigue. Not to mention if you had valve float on top of this. A lean condition doesn’t have to happen to each cylinder either. You could have a clogged injector or a bad tune in the EEC tuner. – ask Matt


Those valves that hit pistons all bent (no cracks or other broken valves)
How do you know that happen after the initial failure? Could the valves have had issues before the failure as well?

[AI#97]

A lean condition doesn’t have to happen to each cylinder either. You could have a clogged injector or a bad tune in the EEC tuner. – ask Matt


My situation was with how the aftermarket intake had the fuel rails plumbed which we THINK caused a lean condition on #2...burned the head pretty bad and lightly scared the piston....however, the head gasket was MORE than done and cylinder pressure was getting into the water jacket. repeated hits to 240-250 water temps warped the head. We fixed the head, replumbed the fuel lines and bumped fuel pump capacity about 40% with a new pump from a Ford GT and voila....no problems.

For the record, my motor goes to 6k repeatedly and has the 500 rpm reserve for when I need it. If I had a forged crank, it would spin to 7k reliably.....I just can't get enough air to it. I am thinking of a 4V motor for next year and it would spin to 7500 but I would need 4.10s in the diff! :wink:

[chicane23]

For the record, my motor goes to 6k repeatedly and has the 500 rpm reserve for when I need it.

Yea, and your motor is 0 balanced to correct? ;-) Not a 50 oz balanced stock pushrod motor. ;-)

[AI#97]

For the record, my motor goes to 6k repeatedly and has the 500 rpm reserve for when I need it.

Yea, and your motor is 0 balanced to correct? ;-) Not a 50 oz balanced stock pushrod motor. ;-)

Plus or minus 1 gram.....and the crank has been well groomed!! :wink: