Four race format. Every day, every time.

[nasa-rm]

I figured I wouldn't hack up the other thread, so started a new one here so we have lots of room to work on it.



I'm in for the charity race and vote for shorter practice to augment the race time. I'd like a 40 minutes "shootout". It's better for folks to learn patience and car/tire conservation.

For those planning on ever going to Nationals, this is a HUGE thing. Prepping for a 40 minute race versus the short 25's is a big difference. There's a reason why I was running Glenn down in 2009 in the final laps and then passed Liebbie on the last lap in 2010. LOL!


Texas AI/CMC should consider evaluating "this is how we've always done it" and start trying something different once in a while. Can I give you guys a 3 race format with a 40 as the final at TWS in Sept? Or the ECR race would be even better as we KNOW the championships usually go down to the last last of the last race of the season.

Did you realize that in RM, the driver's don't really have a say in their race formats? They ENJOY getting things mixed up. We even do chase races for points. We throw in hour long "sprint" races once in a while. Inverts, standing vs flying, etc aren't figured until the Saturday meeting. I'm just sayin....


There's nothing wrong with doing it the same every time, but there's a sanctioning body out there that sticks to what they have done the same since the 50's and it's really turning off their competitors. Easy to manage, but not creative. Businesses that don't stay innovative are usually destined to fail.

[Suck fumes]

I'm all for the 3 race format. That's what I've been used to anyway. The 4 race deal wastes soooo much time on Sunday and I don't get home till late. 40 min races really make you drive and learn how to manage tires!

[rleng1]

Concern is if you are driving in a team environment. Other than that, I can see the impact of tire and management.
In a 30 minute, you begin to see degradation of tires, car and driver. Many times with Wade and Wayne on my tail, I am wishing for the white flag. My tires are hot, and I'm wore out.
Like I said, the 3 race format will affect the 2 man teams.
For now, I'm in for 4.

[Suck fumes]

Well how many "teams" are there actually? Like one or two out of 12-18 cars?? You could always run in two classes if you're concerned about not getting enough track time. I just think it would be nice to have a change up every once in a while.

[GlennCMC70]

Well how many "teams" are there actually? Like one or two out of 12-18 cars?? You could always run in two classes if you're concerned about not getting enough track time. I just think it would be nice to have a change up every once in a while.

Even if it is only 1 team, it is reason enough to keep it as is. They are no less important because they are a team. It also isn't a matter of track time. They both want to race in CMC.
If you want to go home early, pack up at any point Sunday and head home instead of telling them to sign-up for 2 classes.

[Suck fumes]

I'm ok with either one, I was just agreeing with Dave that it would be nice to have a change up every once in a while. Not saying it has to be like that every weekend. But I guess nothing will ever change without a lot of opposition.

[GlennCMC70]

One thing to keep in mind is each region grows w/ different people. I'm sure RM CMC grew in an enviroment of random formats. Therefore people who liked that aspect likely stayed and those who didn't moved on for those reasons and likely others. Here in TX, CMC has never had that. To introduce that would likely cause a sudden drop in participation. Would it recover? Possibly. Would there be an impact? Sure.
Thing to keep in mind - if random'ness is part of the season, the season needs to start that way. In a way, the random'ness needs to be the constant. If not, the tried and true format needs to be used.


I also didn't realize there was an issue posting a clip from Dave's email about the change to the Summer Shootout format. I found it shocking that a format change was decided based on feedback from the customers. This change affected folks who I know didn't feel that way. I never saw where CMC's input was requested. Had I been asked before the change, I would have been able to tell Dave that this change would not go over well w/ our group. The email was not about asking for input, it was about informing us of a change. I felt it was important for you all to know beforehand (as early as possible) and provide the input others were afforded the oppertunity to provide prior to showing up at Hallett.

[kbrewmr2]

If that's what you guys want and keeps you guys happy - cool go for it. Just don't let it affect the other 3-4 race groups, and the rest of the other groups too. ;) We can make everyone happy-ish that way. :)

[AI#97]

There's nothing wrong with doing it the same every time, but there's a sanctioning body out there that sticks to what they have done the same since the 50's and it's really turning off their competitors. Easy to manage, but not creative. Businesses that don't stay innovative are usually destined to fail.

LOL! TX has always done it differently than the other regions with 4 races instead of 2 races, yet you are telling us we should consider doing it like all the other regions do because the SCCA doesn't hasn't changed in 60 years. Sounds like TX is the innovator here?!

and for reference...the scca runs 2 races per weekend....

[AllZWay]

We did try the three race per weekend several years ago, but it wasn't liked very well. The theory of tire management sounds good, but realistically didn't change much...except make the last half of the race a HPDE session when the cars got all spread out.

I love the Hallett format and the one 40 minute race. I wouldn't be opposed to another 40 minute race ... But not at tracks like TWS where we already get separated in a 25 minute race.

[nasa-rm]

Could I do 5 races in a weekend?

Wait. We have some teams in other race groups. Not sure of the relevance here.


The only way to effectively get some longer races in is to scrap either one race or the warm/up and qual. I've got a plan for TWS in Sept. I'll just do it. Boycott if you want to and not race. Or do it and let me know if it worked or not. If you really don't like it, I'll hang up my hat and retire.

[nasa-rm]

LOL! TX has always done it differently than the other regions with 4 races instead of 2 races, yet you are telling us we should consider doing it like all the other regions do because the SCCA doesn't hasn't changed in 60 years. Sounds like TX is the innovator here?!

and for reference...the scca runs 2 races per weekend....

Don't MAKE me go "other regions" on you guys. :) I'll start changing the direction of the race on the track 1/2 way through.

[Suck fumes]

I'm up for surprises. GO FOR IT! Trying new things is a GOOD thing every once in a while.

[edrock96GT]

I think if we're looking to make cuts in order to try different things, practice and qual would be better areas to look at than our 4th race.

[Suck fumes]

Get rid of warm ups but not qual.

[Pranav]

except make the last half of the race a HPDE session when the cars got all spread out.

This happens to you during the last half? I'm usually by myself after the first few laps...

[edrock96GT]

Get rid of warm ups but not qual.

I'm not saying get rid of them, just maybe they would be better options for cutting in to. Since we go out green, qual could be 10 minutes. That still gives you time to knock out 3 or 4 (or 5?) good laps. We could look at combining practice with even more groups rather than shortening it, freeing up more time blocks in the process.

Just spitballing here but I think it would be better to cut into those rather than race time.

[Suck fumes]

Qualifying is important. Practice I always skip anyway cause I don't think it's worth chancing messing up the car running with others that are not in your class or tearing up tires for nothing. Dump the practice. I'm usually asleep when it happens anyway haha

[Dulaney]

If all the groups switched to 3 races (one long one on Sunday), then we wouldn't leave the track any earlier than we do now.

Since most of us are budget racers, and many of our cars are 20 year-old crap, I prefer 4 (or more!) shorter races. That way I can break something, miss a race, but still get to run another one. As said, the first several laps are far more fun than the last few, with a few exceptions out there. YMMV.

If we really wanted to do something different, I'd be fine with a 3 lap shoot-out, then restack the field and go again. Yes, we'd lose 3 minutes restacking, but it's less than a warmup/cooldown period. This could be accomplished in a 30 minute window. I'm thinking the checkered flag waves, and the lead car travels the ~2 minutes around to the start/finish line and waits on a second standing start for ~1 minute while everyone else catches up.

My buddy runs the 40 minute Miata races, and he spends the last 30 minutes following the same car. For that punishment, he deserves to leave the track early!

[Dulaney]

Qualifying is important. Practice I always skip anyway cause I don't think it's worth chancing messing up the car running with others that are not in your class or tearing up tires for nothing. Dump the practice. I'm usually asleep when it happens anyway haha

Fully agree for SUNDAY. Not for Saturday. For those of us that don't run Friday practice, Saturday warmup is critical. If I were the only one in this boat, I'd let it go, but I don't think I am.
Sunday's warmup is usually for everybody, so every racegroup would have to agree to ditch it.

[ShadowBolt]

I don't think I have to say what I like but four races is really important for the teams. Otherwise I drive all the way to a place like Hallett or NOLA for one race. Not worth it in my book. Seldom does anything happen after 20-25 minutes. I really like four races. I will say again that we don't need 20 minute warm-ups or practice. I do like getting in the car for 10-15 minutes for a second on Sunday morning if I have not been in the car at all since Sat. morning. Like several others take warm-up minutes away and give it to the races but leave us a very short warm-up. Certainly I would think 15 minutes of qual is enough. I never qual well anyway and my second or third lap is usually the fastest then I lose contact with James, or Michael, or Dan and the harder I try the slower I get.

JJ

[Fbody383]

Dave I think you do a great job and would hate for you to throw in the towel too soon.

I like combo that we've done at Hallett the last couple of years... especially for Hallett. I don't know what the 'right' answer is for the Team guys, but we seem to get the Show Ponies spread out more from the MPS' with longer races. I would hate to get lapped by another CMC car again.

Maybe we need another drop or two in the points - that lets the folks that would rather take a chance in a longer race (in the sweltering heat where most won't even show up...) versus events with 4 races across the weekend.

Go ahead and bring plenty of choices and as long as there's a weekend I can make, I'll be there. On 16s. Slow.

[AI#97]

Dave, why don't you do a "typical southeast" region weekend at TWS in September? Then everyone will get a chance to be on track with 50-60 cars in 4 to 5 classes and see what 40 minutes is like with the AI/GTS/ST leaders lapping the slower cars every 15 minutes. Let folks know what Traffic is really like. Then see where the groups stand.

I can bet the slower guys will be like "they ruined my race" and the faster guys will be like "they got in my way". I would bet you would have 3 times the number of current complaints about format, but the issue would be put to rest!

Either way, like Brewer said, until you have 100-150 HPDE cars showing up, there is no need to cut the race groups down so might as well just go with what already works. A lot less painful and a lot less whining. ;)

I like the idea of 3 lap shoot out, re-grid and go again but no standing starts on hot sticky tires....clutches and drivelines don't like that. And for some reason I like the idea of an Australian Chase....but for charity, not points.

[Suck fumes]

If you did a 3 lap shoot out there will be a lot more wrecks and contact cause everyone will be frantic.

[Dulaney]

Perhaps, but in reality, it's not that much different than a regular race. The finishing order seems to be set within the first few laps for 80% of the field. (at least until I finally break something and pull off)

Without doing a second standing start, it'll likely take an extra lap to get re-grouped. Or, would require an extremely slow pace-car.
I do agree that it'd take an extra toll on the cars.

[AI#97]

If you did a 3 lap shoot out there will be a lot more wrecks and contact cause everyone will be frantic.

I thought Frantic was the Thunder Group's middle name....or was that Drama?! lol!

[MikeP99Z]

It think its "Group D for drama"

[MikeP99Z]

Eddie - you racing at Hallett?


I think if we're looking to make cuts in order to try different things, practice and qual would be better areas to look at than our 4th race.

[michaelmosty]

For Hallett we never have a qual on Sunday so therefore can put that time into the final race and keep the same amount of track time.
I personally prefer more shorter races than long but feel it would be nice to know what the plan is prior to the weekend.

[ShadowBolt]

For Hallett we never have a qual on Sunday so therefore can put that time into the final race and keep the same amount of track time.
I personally prefer more shorter races than long but feel it would be nice to know what the plan is prior to the weekend.
As usual Michael is correct. No qual on Sunday at Hallett.

JJ

[edrock96GT]

Eddie - you racing at Hallett?

Not this time. Just doing the in-state races this year. I don't know when they're putting me out or what kind of "deal" they're going to try and stick me with when they do so I need to try and save up some money.

[BryanL]

Well the Hallett format is different from the rest of the season's races and it seems to work real well. So we don't do every weekend the same but some people like consistency. I'm in favor of the 4 races per weekend. Changing it up every once in awhile would be fine but I agree with Glenn that it needs to be advance notice. I wouldn't want to show up for a 20 minute sprint race and then be told its an hour long on saturday morning then have to go add 50 pounds of ballast.
Also, since we are on the subject, the Enduro's don't really go over well with some when it is on a Sat/Sun and takes away from track time-they also have pretty pathetic attendance from people that have to pay a fee to race (meaning not a nasa official/instructor). Sat warmup should always be there for people to shake down their car after working on it, bedding brakes, tires, etc.

[nasa-rm]

Great feedback everyone.

I'm not asking you to try a new vegetable. Just mix up what we do for races once in a while. For those that are coming up with reasons as to "why we shouldn't" do something different, just take 15 minutes to reflect and think about "why we should". Challenge yourself.

As far as advance notice, you are all on notice for September. This is 3 months in advance. You will have a 35-40 minute race. I will find a way to make it work and you still get the requested 4 races.


BTW, on a personal note, it's kinda funny and I love pushing your AI/CMC buttons just to see you how react. When we agreed to take over Texas I was warned that this group would be the most difficult bunch of opinionated, stuck in their ways group that we'd have to deal with. I accepted the challenge. But I am feeling that I am not getting a lot of give and take here. One of the few changes you have accepted is renaming the group from "D" to "Thunder" and I can't believe the amount of crap I got for that :). When will you be willing to let me try some stuff that have worked very successfully in other regions?

[Alien]

Please keep in mind somethings don't always go together. Longer races, Summer, Texas. Pick two.

I know we've done three race weekends in the past, but were done during the first part of the year.

[smitty328]

I'm all for last minute randomness as long as the number of races stays the same. If it’s three races instead of four, that’s fine as long as I know in advance. If I wake up Sunday morning and find out we are running in the opposite direction… fine, I just wish I didn’t drink so much last night.

[ShadowBolt]

One of the few changes you have accepted is renaming the group from "D" to "Thunder" and I can't believe the amount of crap I got for that :).

Wow, even I did not bitch about that!

JJ

[ShadowBolt]

When will you be willing to let me try some stuff that have worked very successfully in other regions?


Are those regions larger (in cars) than the Texas region is? Have these ideas made them grow faster or larger than us?


JJ

[BryanL]

I've got a plan for TWS in Sept. I'll just do it. Boycott if you want to and not race. Or do it and let me know if it worked or not. If you really don't like it, I'll hang up my hat and retire.

You talking about this kind of give/take? HAH! Or the email that Glenn sent out letting us know 2 weeks before that the Summer Shootout format was totally different than what we have done in the past?

I'm just messing with you Dave but do want to offer suggestions. Asking us what we would like and offering up your suggestions would be better than telling us the format has changed at Hallett after we have already registered. Maybe I'm from the if it ain't broke camp, but I look at Hallett and think that is one of the best (and attended) CMC/AI events. Now is it because of the shootout Nats. style format or because of the venue? I like to think its both.
Now could you create a different format at TWS in Sept. that people have fun and works great? Sure. As long as its stated ahead of time then people can decide if they want to attend and how to prepare the car. I can sure see the 4 race deal being important to a team situation which I think we have 3 teams in CMC which roughly equates to over 20% of the average CMC field this year. Of course there have been times when I skip the 4th race so I can see some appeal to a long Sunday race. At least I'm considering trying a different veg. Dave. But don't bother trying to get me to drink Keystone, Killians, etc-I have to draw the line somewhere.

[Pranav]

Dave, don't leave, but if you do, put me in charge. I will bring LeMons hilarity to Thunder group. Think bribes for starting grid, wheel of misfortune for contact, etc...

[kbrewmr2]

When will you be willing to let me try some stuff that have worked very successfully in other regions?
Are those regions larger (in cars) than the Texas region is? Have these ideas made them grow faster or larger than us?
JJ
Texas is not the largest region overall, probably not even top-5 I guess.

Per capita we have the most racers, biggest AI / CMC group, etc though I'd bet.

Just be a little bit more open to experimentation, you just might like it and if you don't at least you'll appreciate the status quo that much more. You buncha negative Nancies you :p

[GlennCMC70]

Dave, don't leave, but if you do, put me in charge. I will bring LeMons hilarity to Thunder group. Think bribes for starting grid, wheel of misfortune for contact, etc...

You do that and car goes up for sale that very moment. I hate LeMons........

[BlueFirePony]

Texas AI/CMC should consider evaluating "this is how we've always done it" and start trying something different once in a while.
...
There's nothing wrong with doing it the same every time, but there's a sanctioning body out there that sticks to what they have done the same since the 50's and it's really turning off their competitors. Easy to manage, but not creative. Businesses that don't stay innovative are usually destined to fail.
Dave since I know the spirit of your intent is to provide a superior service, I'd support you on whatever you think will work - you have a great heart and have a good feel for the business. Just don't change because nothing has changed- it's a crap shoot. Think New Coke (or whatever change-is-improvement BS idea you want to substitute). The SCCA issues have been a long time coming and built up over year and years of not listening to anyone but the loudest voices.
If your energy is focused on innovating towards improving the quality of time on track and at event, then many will support you even if it results in a reduction of time on track.
But I challenge you to focus on innovating more like Disneyland than NASCAR. Disneyland's innovations don't eliminate problems as much as they create opportunities (both for the business and the consumer). Switch back lines did not eliminate long waits, they make the wait less annoying and reduced congestion. No-queue-queues give consumers options and visual eye candy while they wait for the next attraction or go from store to store. The whole operation of Disneyland is geared to generate fanatic customer loyalty despite flaws. NASCAR's changes are poorly thought out, driven by "loudest voices" and almost always wind up highlighting the problems (COT meet 6th gen, penalties meet "have at it boys", which channel is NASCAR on? WHat month is it...TNT=June, Fox = March? I give up...check Speed for highlights). I don't go to NASCAR races anymore and only watch the start and end of races....if I watch at all.

[edrock96GT]

....Just be a little bit more open to experimentation, you just might like it...

Wait, now I know what's going on here...

[ShadowBolt]

Wait, now I know what's going on here...

If it's hope and change I'm out.


JJ

[cobra132]

One more year of reading this forum and I will be able to sit for the psychology boards. The only thing that is constant is change. Despite knowing that, I hate change. I like the TP to hang over the front of the roll, I hate when someone rearranges the furniture, etc. I don't care what we do as long as I get advanced notice. I also hate those lemons clowns.

[Rsmith350]

If it's hope and change I'm out.


JJ

Damn.......beat me to it! Lol

[Rob Liebbe]

Wait, now I know what's going on here...

It's ok Eddie, and even allowed in the military these days, and the Boy Scouts.

[rleng1]

Thunder is a great name.
We could have been called Nancies or Blitz, or something like that.
I'm good with change, as long as it doesn't begin to feel like I'm playing putt-putt on a course with the windmill and clown face. Just want it to be good clean racing, so we can say after the race, "Wahoo, did you see when you were....." Instead of saying before the race, "Cool, now watch this, you ain't seen nothing"

A few leadershp qualities:
Be honest, build trust; Be aware of history, change the future; Be a leader, follow good examples; Be humble, demand the best; Be a team player, challenge the team; Be professional, break paradigms; Be commited, have fun; Be happy, never satisfied.
Dave and the NASA TX Region, you all exhibit all of these, and I truly thank you.

[nasa-rm]

With Randy's words of advice, let me explain some of my reasoning's to do this. I can explain in more details over beer at Hallett.

1. I want to build NASA TX to be "the place" that people want to go for auto-sports. The NASA calendar should be the first place they look when setting their schedule for the year. If this means do the same thing every time and be consistent, we can do that. Or trying new things to see what breaks and what works best, then yes.

2. I want our racers to be top notch quality and be able to go anywhere and stand on the podium. Under any conditions and length of race. 25 hours in a constant downpour, 15 minute sprint, 40 minute race in the heat. While building muscle memory is a great thing to do, if you only exercise the same way you are conditioned to only work one way.



Two quick notes:

Someone asked if we are trying to do things that are done by a successful larger region. Yes, in fact Texas is a small region and minuscule in comparison to what it could be for the population of Texas. This region *should* easily have 250-300 cars per event and history to 2010 was just about 100 cars per event. That's why we were brought here, to make things grow. We hit our target of 200 cars in the first couple of seasons several times. Now it's time to raise that bar and hit 250. We are also trying things done well by smaller regions than Texas. Things we have done in RM, Central, Florida, Arizona, etc. NASA's goal is to keep things fresh and keep trying to improve - this is ONE thing that hasn't changed over the past 20 years. Help us reach those goals.

If someone on a team gets butt hurt because we only have 3 races in a weekend, then we can allow them to run an extra race in another race group (PTB or SM8) to make up for their loss of a session. I am happy to keep working on solutions to perceived problems. You guys set them up, I'll keep knocking them back until I'm under the table.

[Fbody383]

If someone on a team gets butt hurt because we only have 3 races in a weekend, then we can allow them to run an extra race in another race group (PTB or SM to make up for their loss of a session. I am happy to keep working on solutions to perceived problems. You guys set them up, I'll keep knocking them back until I'm under the table.I think it could take more than beer with this group. I could be wrong (again) but my sense is the group is up for different things.

For example, would the collective "we" be up for a 60 minute race with a mandatory 5 minute stop at the half for the team guys to change drivers? I don't know, but why not; could even score the halves differently.

And put me in the camp of hot, cold, wet, or dry - if it's a race weekend the weather is the same for everybody thought I know some/most folks don't like the summer heat.

[BlueFirePony]

I know some/most folks don't like the summer heat.
Another example of not knowing what I was missing on this one. I skipped July and August events from 2006-2010 because I hated being on track in the extreme heat. Since I had to miss the spring TWS in 2011 due to work conflict I decided to go to the August event. The heat did take its toll on car count but the event was great and had some of my favorite duels with Dr. Frank that weekend. Renting the RV for the A/C and shower definately took the edge off though.

[Adam Ginsberg]

Not long ago, Jerry changed the track layout at SPIR from Saturday to Sunday - anyone familiar with SPIR knows it can be a VERY unforgiving track if you make a mistake. A few folks bitched, but the world didn't come to an end, cats and dog still fought with one another, and there wasn't massive carnage. You had to pay attention to the flag stations and to the cones.....no different than any other time being on track.

Folks, you need to quit your whining, and try something different. Racing in 5 different regions around the US has taught me a few important things - things change, nothing stays the same, and a 40 minute race, even in 100 degree heat, isn't the end of the damn world. We did a 40min race at Buttonwillow in 107^. The floor of the car showed 155^. We all survived.

Good luck trying to get this group to change, Dave. It's your region.....give them a month heads up, and just f'n do it.

[michaelmosty]

AI/CMC in Texas seems to be growing very nicely. The work Dave has done in TX is incredible and greatly appreciated, and the car count is showing!!

Little change in format + Dave B = success :^)

[rleng1]

Change for the sake of change + change for the hope of change = hope & change = liberal thinking that there is something wrong. Or global warming.

[AI#97]

Randy for Pres!

[marshall_mosty]

Randy for Pres!
I still think MFW (either of them) should run... Presidential motorcade would be pink, but I guess folks would get used to it. That way, nobody has to give any point by's....

:)

[edrock96GT]

Change for the sake of change + change for the hope of change = hope & change = liberal thinking that there is something wrong. Or global warming.

If it ain't broke, keep fixing it until it is!

[Terlingua 121]

Just tell me when and where, we will do our best to be there! I am not going to bitch about getting to do something most people could only hope to do!!!

[GlennCMC70]

Not long ago, Jerry changed the track layout at SPIR from Saturday to Sunday - anyone familiar with SPIR knows it can be a VERY unforgiving track if you make a mistake. A few folks bitched, but the world didn't come to an end, cats and dog still fought with one another, and there wasn't massive carnage. You had to pay attention to the flag stations and to the cones.....no different than any other time being on track.

Folks, you need to quit your whining, and try something different. Racing in 5 different regions around the US has taught me a few important things - things change, nothing stays the same, and a 40 minute race, even in 100 degree heat, isn't the end of the damn world. We did a 40min race at Buttonwillow in 107^. The floor of the car showed 155^. We all survived.

Good luck trying to get this group to change, Dave. It's your region.....give them a month heads up, and just f'n do it.



Couple things (I know - why do I bother....).
Adam –
You went to race other regions knowing good and well it would be different, just like any racer here would do when they left this region to do the same. So that example does not apply here. It only proves that you liked the change you saw. You fell in 1 of 2 groups – those who do like change and those who don’t like change.

General thoughts to the group-
The other issue is the change that was planned for Hallett was not announced to the general masses and was only provided here once I did so w/in minutes of me finding out. Change is acceptable, when it is announced w/ proper lead time. Lots of folks take time off work and spend money that is not refundable weeks and months in advance based off the established norm. They plan drops/missed events based off of established norms. If the established norm was random formats, then this would not be an issue, but random is not the norm. Obviously this is a big deal in a CUSTOMER oriented business. So as the owner of the business, Dave has the right to make changes as he wishes. As customers we have the right to complain about said changes and not continue “shopping” here anymore. Dave has the knowledge to deal w/ that and I’ll not second guess him there.
Now, if Dave makes a change and announces it well in advance, I’m good with that as are most people. I don’t think everyone who is happy w/ the lead time of the announcement will attend though, so don’t confuse the two. If the “new format” event has a 50% drop in customers, it is safe to say that more than 50% disliked the change as surely some will attend only to maintain points leads and stuff like that but still dislike the change.

One other perspective to keep in mind.
Regions that are established based on random formats and stuff like that tend to retain folks who like that sort of thing. Regions that maintain standard formats and are known for what to expect from event to event, seem to retain folks who like that sort of thing. When change is introduced, you have to expect some kick-back. After all, we seem to love our 4 race weekend formats w/ 2 of those being inverts. Seems to mix things up pretty good. Add in a the Hallett format and I see some fair amount of variety. Add to that the few Enduro races and it seems like a good mix for the amount of racers we have.

Dave can force a change. Some folks will like it, and some will not. Dave can risk running off a few customers and risk retaining the same number as well. It will either show Dave it was a good thing or a bad thing. I’m all for trying something new, I just want to know about it well in advance.

[Trublu]

Just tell me when and where, we will do our best to be there! I am not going to bitch about getting to do something most people could only hope to do!!!

Mike, I'm with you. If its generally black with a few deviations from dead straight, something green either side of the black and with any luck a few guys near me willing to race I'm there. If I ever get in a points race maybe I'll think different. For me right now developing a car, seeing the improvement (in car and driver) and keeping up with the field is why I spend hours in the workshop and why I turn up whenever I can. So long as the format keeps things competitive and close with some good laughs after I'm there....

[michaelmosty]

Very well said Glenn. I agree that if change is mentioned well in advance, everyone can chose to accept it or pass.
Just remember, Dave mentioned a while ago to expect something different for TWS in September.

[GlennCMC70]

I know Dave did that, but I would like to know what that "something different" is priort o pulling into the gates at TWS.

[marshall_mosty]

I know Dave did that, but I would like to know what that "something different" is priort o pulling into the gates at TWS.
I think it was CMC running CCW and Glenn running CW...

[AI#97]

I know Dave did that, but I would like to know what that "something different" is priort o pulling into the gates at TWS.

Agreed.

[Racebrat]

Dang- I had to open a 2nd bottle of wine to get through this thread! I've been away too long! I assume this is the change in format Glenn was referring to in the other post. I've sent Dave an email asking him for details- as soon as I get them I'll let y'all know. The feedback is great and I appreciate all of your input- Dave is just trying to keep things fresh and different.

"D" for Drama....funniest thing all night! :-)

[Adam Ginsberg]

I know Dave did that, but I would like to know what that "something different" is priort o pulling into the gates at TWS.

Precisely why I said this:


Good luck trying to get this group to change, Dave. It's your region.....give them a month heads up, and just f'n do it.

Have fun with this group, Adrian.