Engine pull party this Saturday

[Pranav]

After sitting around all weekend while everyone was having fun at TWS, I can't imagine missing Hallett, especially if my block/heads are salvageable. That will make for a looong summer.

Went ahead and cleaned up the garage this weekend, going to pull the motor this Saturday in Spring. Could use some help from anyone that's free/nearby. We will pull motor, do a leakdown, remove accessories/manifolds and load it in my truck for me to take it back to the machine shop that built it on Monday, all while enjoying some pizza/beer/soda...

Anyone got a leakdown tester and engine stand I could borrow?

[Trublu]

After sitting around all weekend while everyone was having fun at TWS, I can't imagine missing Hallett, especially if my block/heads are salvageable. That will make for a looong summer.

Went ahead and cleaned up the garage this weekend, going to pull the motor this Saturday in Spring. Could use some help from anyone that's free/nearby. We will pull motor, do a leakdown, remove accessories/manifolds and load it in my truck for me to take it back to the machine shop that built it on Monday, all while enjoying some pizza/beer/soda...

Anyone got a leakdown tester and engine stand I could borrow?

Pranav, you're welcome to use my leakdown tester. I'm booked out this weekend but let me know if you need help futher down the road. It'd be interesting to see how they manage to cram so much stuff so far back in an engine bay....

[Al Fernandez]

Sorry bud, plans for saturday not to mention my engine is also bad. Again.

[Pranav]

What'd you break?

[Pranav]

Found a stand, Craig thanks, will let you know! Someone may bring one...

[blk96gt]

Poor Al. His 9 year old engine finally let go!

[Hood]

Suggest doing the leak down before you pull the engine. What is going on with the engine that it needs to go back to the builder?

[Pranav]

Motor basically siezed during practice; I was getting a tapping noise that turned into a lugging, so I clutched in and it shut off by itself. It refused to turn over again by the corner station. Flat towed back to the pits. Starter was barely able to turn motor over on a full charge, it looked like it was getting stuck on a cylinder or something.

Half the water in the radiator is gone and oil is milky with water in it. Water never got hot (215-220 normal, 230 at failure), oil temps were starting to skyrocket (climbed to 280 at 60% pace, I never got hotter than 230 previously) right before failure.

I will do a leakdown, but not so sure this is anything I can fix myself in the engine bay...

[Fbody383]

Motor basically siezed during practice; Starter was barely able to turn motor over on a full charge, it looked like it was getting stuck on a cylinder or something. Pffttt... i have one, a TWS casualty, I can't turn over with a breaker bar.

Still hate that you have to deal with it.

[Dulaney]

Lost my LT1 at TWS back in 2011.
Switched to LS, and we've seen how well that's gone for me...

[Al Fernandez]

Mine's not broken per se. It runs and pulls through the rpm band without stumbling or sputtering...it just doesnt make any power. Who's ever heard of a CMC 4th gen that doesnt need 5th at TWS? Mine doesnt! Doesnt even hit the rev limiter in 4th...but not a cough or complain all that time. Maybe the guys at the exhaust shop left a couple of rags inside the y pipe...

[Rob Liebbe]

Mine's not broken per se. It runs and pulls through the rpm band without stumbling or sputtering...it just doesnt make any power. Who's ever heard of a CMC 4th gen that doesnt need 5th at TWS? Mine doesnt! Doesnt even hit the rev limiter in 4th...but not a cough or complain all that time. Maybe the guys at the exhaust shop left a couple of rags inside the y pipe... Dyno fluke - I AM THE CHAMPION!!!!!

[ShadowBolt]

Mine's not broken per se. It runs and pulls through the rpm band without stumbling or sputtering...it just doesnt make any power. Who's ever heard of a CMC 4th gen that doesnt need 5th at TWS? Mine doesnt! Doesnt even hit the rev limiter in 4th...but not a cough or complain all that time. Maybe the guys at the exhaust shop left a couple of rags inside the y pipe...

Have you checked for any codes? The 55 was running the same way as your car in R4 at Cresson and on Friday morning at TWS it would not turn enough RPM's to turn on the shift light. I borrowed BL's OBDII code reader and it showed coil four bad. I raised the hood and the signal wire to coil pack four was not plugged in all the way. I pushed it in until it clicked and never raised the hood the rest of the weekend.

JJ

[Al Fernandez]

I didnt Jerry. Its a 93 so not very sophisticated in its onboard diagnostics. It does have spark though obviously and one of the symptoms is that it idles rough...not stumbling, more like a bit of a cam lope feeling. Anyway the concensus was that a weak coild or ICM would have enough energy to keep everything normal at idle so we didnt validate it. Did unplug, test, and reconnect the coil wire though.

[Pranav]

Started pulling stuff off the motor in prep for tomorrow. Got all but plug #7 off (driver's rear-most, have to be under car to really get it). Cylinder #8 (passenger rear-most) gushed a ton of water as soon as I pulled the plug. After getting the plugs out the motor spun freely on the starter for the few seconds I ran it.

The throttle plate was also coated with water, and the oil level on the dipstick was way above what I last filled it up with (because of water). Now I know why half of the water in the radiator disappeared but never left the overflow hose. It all went into the engine :D

Looks like bad gasket, cracked head, cracked block, or all of the above. Happy that the rotating assembly is still in "one piece" :cool:

Pulling motor tomorrow, should find out more when I pull the pan and intake. Probably won't pull off the heads until I take it to the machine shop and have them do it in front of me on Monday (since they are the ones that put it on).

[Trublu]

Started pulling stuff off the motor in prep for tomorrow. Got all but plug #7 off (driver's rear-most, have to be under car to really get it). Cylinder #8 (passenger rear-most) gushed a ton of water as soon as I pulled the plug. After getting the plugs out the motor spun freely on the starter for the few seconds I ran it.

The throttle plate was also coated with water, and the oil level on the dipstick was way above what I last filled it up with (because of water). Now I know why half of the water in the radiator disappeared but never left the overflow hose. It all went into the engine :D

Looks like bad gasket, cracked head, cracked block, or all of the above. Happy that the rotating assembly is still in "one piece" :cool:

Pulling motor tomorrow, should find out more when I pull the pan and intake. Probably won't pull off the heads until I take it to the machine shop and have them do it in front of me on Monday (since they are the ones that put it on).
This somehow seems strangely familiar

[Pranav]

Pulled the motor yesterday and got the intake off. There was some crap/shavings in the lifter valley, couldn't see anything else out of place except for milkshake residue. Machine shop tomorrow...

[Pranav]

Shop is still not fully done with checking the heads, but they had good news on the block. Block itself remains unscathed. Had a rod twisted with piston damage (hitting head it looks like), along with two more spun rod bearings. Crank was gouged beyond repair. Sent them a use crank and rods, block is already honed and awaiting its parts.

They're looking at what can be done with the heads now; i guess the piston hitting the one side lifted it enough and caused the "head gasket failure" since it never got remotely hot before failure.

There is still no "smoking" gun in regards to what caused things to go wrong; the shop couldn't find any oiling issues that would've contributed to rod bearing failure.

Should be back in business soon, with much less cost than feared.

[ShadowBolt]

Sound like too many different issues to me. Why would the piston hit the head unless some wrong parts were used. Spun bearings?

JJ

[Pranav]

I'm still not sure what's going on either, shop isn't fully done looking at everything, just happy I don't have a cracked block.

[GlennCMC70]

The bearing is thicker than the piston to head clearance. If it stacked the bearings on one side of the crank, the slop in the clearances would allow the piston to hit the head.

[Pranav]

This makes sense. Basic timeline of what went down

1. Show up to TWS, go out on track at 50% to heat cycle new Toyos
2. Pull in and hear light tapping from 2k RPM that goes away at 3k
3. Me Glenn Casey and others listen, we think it could be rocker noise or a cam bearing
4. Decide to go back out anyways (doh!), tapping gets real loud until motor starts lugging bad, clutch in and motor shuts itself off

Couldn't turn motor over with starter until I got it home and pulled the plugs, drained water from #8 (pass rear most cyl).

So it looks like what Glenn said, badly spun/stacked bearing, starts hitting head, head lifts/deforms enough to start letting in water, motor hydrolocks; that one piston/rod was obviously fubared, but I also have two more spun rod bearings. Unsure if those two additional ones were caused by the first one and the motor getting waterlogged, or if there was an overall failure of oiling that started spinning bearings in the first place.

We used Clevite "P" bearings, which I understood to be sufficient for what we do. Not implying that bearing choice would've caused this, but since I'm starting over again, what bearings should I run and how loose? The Clevite K bearings seem like a nice upgrade but pricy.

Pistons will remain 20 over with sealed power units + rings, I only have to replace the one damaged one.

[Pranav]

Swung by the shop to drop some stuff off; since I was between office visits couldn't stick around and inspect/ask too many questions.

I glanced at the offending rod/piston and there was a little marring from where it was smacking the head, but the entire skirt/wrist pin area was destroyed and partially missing from the force of the spun/stacked rod bearing shoving it into the head. The head barely had any marring on it as well, so the shop vacuum tested them and is good to re-use it.

Looks like the piston took the brunt of the head impacts and destroyed itself, all without hurting my cylinder wall and head! I guess it was still nicking or blowing out the headgasket which caused it to fail.

Still no "official" word on final damage tally and possible causes; should a call from them soon and will know how to proceed with the rebuild once the crank and rods arrive tomorrow.

Very lucky to be able to reuse my block and heads, and overall very happy that it will be "cheap"

[Hood]

You might want to use ACL race bearings. On an NA motor you shouldn't need to coat them (PolyDyn) but I would make sure that they are running at least .0018 to .002 rod and main clearances. Also make sure that they true the crank journals...even if they have to go .010 or even .020 under, it is better to have a completely round journal (and your bearing speeds are lower as well).

BTW, what shop is doing the work for you?

[Pranav]

Westside performance and machine.

I talked to them about bearings and we settled on Clevite H, along with fresh ARP bolts all througout. Am I missing much on Clevite vs ACL Race? Thought they're both owned by Mahle now...

Everything has been checked and cleaned up at this point, they're hoping to squeeze me in this week so I get a motor to put in next weekend.

I'll talk to them about the clearances and cleaning up the replacement crank (used) on Tuesday before they start, thanks Gary.

[Pranav]

Got so busy with with work Tuesday that I didn't get a chance to call them 'till today. Long story short they already checked and polished the crank; it's in very good shape and are going with it as is. I'll look into grinding the crank and undersized bearings next go around. I'm 28 years old right now, hope next time I go through this I'm well into my 30s.

They're moving along with the motor to try get it back to me Friday. Gives me all of this weekend to get it in and running, next weekend to dyno and autocross it enough to declare it ready for Hallett...