Tire Issues

[marshall_mosty]

Guys,
I think we can all agree that the Toyo RR has perceived “issues” with lifespan. Toyo only provides a very minimal contingency that doesn’t get even close to supporting the tire budget for anyone other than the winners. Here is a thought…
“AIX – Heavy” (AI Cars)
“AIX – Light” (CMC Cars)
Cars that are running an “open tire” class with a gentlemen’s agreement to follow their parent ruleset. We can agree on a commonly available DOT tire that can be used in lieu of Toyos. The idea would be to get a tire with less total grip, but a longer lifespan. We could use a rule for a minimum treadwear (150, etc). This would allow folks to possibly run a set of tires an entire season and not worry about the effects of heat cycling.
Granted, there would be no Toyo contingency, but your total tire bill would be less than if you had used Toyos.

For the trophy girls:
Toyo RR ($1100/set) * 3 sets per year, assuming two weekends per set = $3,300. If you get an average of $300 per weekend in contingency (winner of a 7+ field), you would have $1,800 in contingency. That would put your total tire budget at approx. $1,500 per year. A decent 275/40 17 tire (Kimho Ecsta XS) would run $200/tire ($800 per set). Assuming one set per year, you would save $800.

For the rest of folks who stretch tire life:
Toyo RR ($1100/set) * 2 sets per year, assuming three weekends per set = $2,200. If you get no contingency, it would put your total tire budget at approx. $2,200 per year. A decent 275/40 17 tire would run $200/tire ($800 per set). Assuming one set per year, you would save $1,400.


We could still do the same split grid, based on sub-class. Points would have to be figured out, but if that is the most difficult part of the equation, we are miles ahead.

Think of this as a baby version of the AIX outlaw class on the west coast...

[Suck fumes]

We have run the kumho XS at the driveway for 5 yrs and they are great but they will not last a season. I can't see any tire lasting a whole season. Yah you buy less of something but on a racecar all tires will get destroyed somehow. Either by chunking, chording, or tread flare.

[ShadowBolt]

I like the idea to at least look at doing something but I doubt there is anyone that runs a full schedule that can get by on two sets of tires. With the current RR's if you run a half day practice on Friday with three sessions ands then the race weekend you are putting 11 heat cycles on your tires every race weekend! The savings would be way better than that you are saying. I don't know but have always wondered how many more racers you could get into the sport if you could get a season out of even two sets of tires.


JJ

[ShadowBolt]

We have run the kumho XS at the driveway for 5 yrs and they are great but they will not last a season. I can't see any tire lasting a whole season. Yah you buy less of something but on a racecar all tires will get destroyed somehow. Either by chunking, chording, or tread flare.

I assume you would need to shave them. I think two sets per year should be our goal but I don't know if it is possible.

JJ

[Tilton]

Nitto NT01 $205/tire $820/set

[kbrewmr2]

I'm just going to drop this here with the note that AIX (and many other open tire classes) are eligible. I've seen some good things out of them thus far from some of my budget TT guys that run them. They seem to be fairly "RA1" like in terms of their degridation curve but I've not run them to see for myself yet. No shaving, and will probably take some racing abuse for sure.

http://www.nasaproracing.com/contingency/maxxis_tire_contingency_program/2014_Maxxis_Tire_Regional_Contingency_Info.pdf

[mach1]

Nitto NT01 $205/tire $820/set

AKA 6/32 Toyo RA1??

[Rob Liebbe]

I am all for a non-contingency tire. The current RR and rumor of two-race weekends has me really reconsidering coming back to CMC. I'll take the new car, put a passenger seat in it and go run DE's in the instructor class with open passing on NT01's. I would really like to see some serious thought into running one spec tire for all or have CMC on one tire and AI on a more racy/aggressive tire. It could be CMC and Spec Iron on Nitto NT01's and AI on Toyo RR's for example. Adding extra classes will only get confusing, and more difficult to keep track of. We already had that with CMC1, CMC2, AI and allowing wings on all cars. The different colored windshield banners didn't do enough to help spectators know what was going on.

In the end, we are NASA customers, people who NASA should listen to, people who could stop coming to their events, people who could stop buying Toyo tires, etc. I really like the idea of running the NT01 if it still the equivalent of an RA1 which they seem to be for now. Nitto is part of Toyo if I remember correctly, spec Nittos and change the required sticker and everybody wins.

Your mileage may vary, and your viewpoint and goals may be different. Mine are to run a few race weekends a year, have fun with my buds, not wreck anybody else's car all while not spending a huge amount of money on tires for no good reason.


Cheers.

[Suck fumes]

I'm all for a tire that doesn't require shaving!

[blk96gt]

I've talked to a number of people who run NT01's at DE's and they seem to be able to get at least 2.5-3 weekends (most get 3-4) out of a set with a minimal performance degradation (< 1 second). This is on cars weighing anywhere from 2800lbs to 4000+lbs.

I've been impressed enough with the 01's from talking to others that I'm planning to buy another set of rims and put some NT01's on for DE weekends. I can report back with my experience.

[michaelmosty]

Just a couple of thoughts:
I have run Chumpcar in a Mustang that had 28 hours of racing (two 14-hour events) on a set of Dunlop Direzza tires (200 treadwear). Granted, being endurance racing the racing was not 100% pedal down but the tires still felt great and after 28 hours still had tread left. I was very surprised at the amount of grip the street tires had.

I like the idea of the NT01's b/c you wouldn't need to shave them and they are cheaper than the RA1's.

Toyo wants to make money and sell more tires. I'm sure they wanted a tire that didn't last as long as the RA1 so they could sell more tires and make more money. Mission accomplished for them, bad for us.

I think the easiest solution for the time being is to go back to the RA1's. I don't have any data but would guess that a 10-heat cycle RA1 would be faster than a 10-heat cycle RR. The brand new RR would have the advantage at the 1st event but after that would not be worth it.
Who knows, just thinking out loud.

[smitty328]

I'd love to run NT01s. Too bad they don't make them in 295s.

[RichardP]

I think we can all agree that the Toyo RR has perceived “issues” with lifespan.

I know I'm a bit anal, but we should clear up our terminology. I'm actually just fine with the wear I've gotten on the RR. I think a race tire that would last a whole season is a bit unrealistic. I'm OK with 2.5 - 3 weekends. I'm also not opposed to one that would last longer...

The issue as I see it for a spec tire series is the heat cycle degradation. With the number of heat cycles we put on in a weekend, there is a competitive advantage to showing up every weekend with a fresh set. There is possibly an advantage to showing up with more than one set. That is a significant driver for a race budget. It sucks a bit of the fun out of the whole thing if you know you are going to be in the hole versus your competitors unless you cough up big money every weekend.


Richard P.

[michaelmosty]

I completely agree with Richard. I have 8 heat cycles on my RR's and they still look very good. I agree the heat cycle degradation issue is the key here.

[marshall_mosty]

I have nothing against whatever tire we use. My RR's with 17 heat cycles have a BUNCH of meat left (based on the indicator holes). I was planning on running my 7 heat cycle tires vs. 17 heat cycles at NOLA, but oh well...

I'd love a handshake agreement to have a 10 tire per season cap. It would have to be somewhat on the honor system, as the officials would have no way to know when folks flip/swap/replace tires. That would make it a game of tire management...

[GlennCMC70]

This should really be talked about on the National site. For things like what Marshall was saying (local AIX/AIX Light) "agreements" is one thing that can be done on a local level. We would be creating some of the issues we don't like seeing ourselves w/ not following the rules to the T. We want to race the same ruleset whether we are in region or out of region. Other (most) feel the same way.
If we are going to push for a tire change, we need to do it on a National front. We can all agree here, but it takes a lot more than that.

So far I agree w/ all that has been said.
We want a tire that lasts longer w/ very little or no drop off till we see cords. No shaving. Under $1000 per set.
Toyo wants to sell tires. There are two ways to do that. 1- Make fast tires. 2- Make tires that work well for SPEC class's that are cheep and last forever.
#2 only works if ALOT of classes use the tires.

The starting point should be w/ NASA HQ and asking if Toyo knows what the racers wants in a tire. Who told them if they do and what was said to them. What was the response.
I feel fairly confident in saying none of us have been happy w/ Toyo since the R888 was pushed on us. From that point forward, something fishy has been going on w/ the tire.

I put in a call to Al F today (2nd one in a couple weeks). We will see if I get a call back. I'll give it a few days and then I'll ping NASA HQ (via Will F) and see what I can find out.
My bet is, we have a deal for X years that can't be changed. This to include CMC being required to use Toyo's. Possibly time for a rouge class of MCC (Mustang Camaro Challenge).

[GlennCMC70]

I have nothing against whatever tire we use. My RR's with 17 heat cycles have a BUNCH of meat left (based on the indicator holes). I was planning on running my 7 heat cycle tires vs. 17 heat cycles at NOLA, but oh well...

I'd love a handshake agreement to have a 10 tire per season cap. It would have to be somewhat on the honor system, as the officials would have no way to know when folks flip/swap/replace tires. That would make it a game of tire management...

Don't all tires have barcodes now days?

[GlennCMC70]

I posted this in another thread. Really belongs here.


In the glory days of the RA1 (2005 to 2009? ) there was a saying about tires -Thin to win!
seemed like the tires were fastest just before they would show cords.
Life was simple then. Shave to 4/32nd and run them till they get so thin they cant keep the air in.
That is what a spec tire should be.
We used to say the RA1's sucked, but they sucked for a long time.

[MikeP99Z]

I burned 5 sets of RRs in 3 weekends.

Granted one set was killed during a practice day learning the characteristics of the tire, and another set was just used for the Atlanta champ race. The first set was almost paid for by Toyo from winning last years regional AI championship.

I won 4 Toyo bucks races (2 at Cresson, 2 at TWS) which paid for just over 2 tires (burned 8 tires to do it). Finished 3rd at Atlanta which will get me $500 cash from Toyo that will be taxed.

I'm not pleased with anything Toyo at the moment.

[Casey_SS]

This thread needs a Like button....

Count me in for a gentleman's agreement and/or regional outlaw class that solves the tire cost issue we're all unhappy about. FWIW, I think the NT01 would be a great lower-cost alternative for an open-tire / outlaw class but we'd still need an honor-based usage cap of some sort to level the playing field and not have guys showing up with sticker NT01s for every race. Surely a 0-1 heat cycle NT01 is faster than a 15-20 heat cycle NT01.

Street tires would be a fun experiment but are so different from what we've always used, it would really favor those willing to spend lots of time & money on testing and setup changes.

[mach1]

One of the major issues I had with running Time Trials was the sticker hoosier problem. You want to win? You better bring sticker hoosier A6's every weekend. The tire situation last year was huge incentive for me to build and run in CMC (and w2w was the other). I'm glad that everyone is having this conversation, we will see how NASA handles it...

[Tilton]

I'm glad that everyone is having this conversation, we will see how NASA handles it...

You are right about discussing this as soon as possible since the contract with Toyo is up at the end of 2015.

http://www.nasaproracing.com/2011/12/toyo-tires-will-continue-as-th.html

Is there enough time to gather sufficient data showing tire "X" should be the new spec tire for the entire series?

[ShadowBolt]

I really don't care about an Outlaw class. I want to run CMC and if we can all agree to a tire I will be happy to go with the rest of you. I called Phil's Tire the other day to order two RA1's because I had $175.00 in TB's that were going to go out on 9-11 (and I hope to never order another RR again). The lady at first told me if I was running RA1's I could not qualify for Toyo Bucks. I told her she was wrong since the RA1 is our rain tire. She said she knows that she is right as far as AI in concerned. I could see Toyo changing this where we have to run the RR. I have been wanting to find a tire like the old RA1 for years. A slow race tire that is the same until it cords. Is there another tire like that today? If the Nito is the way to go I'm in.

JJ

[mach1]

I have had good luck with NT01's on my miata, but it may be the "old" Toyo formula, they were fast all the way to the cord.

[Pranav]

I'd have no issue discarding my remaining Toyos and switching to Nitto in 2015. Sounds like they're the old RA1 everyone misses. Toyo owns Nitto?

My "old" knowledge of the RA1 was a part of why I joined CMC, the whole thin to win thing.

I once took some old RA1s and mounted them up on my 4dr 4cylinder automatic honda accord, had a couple of codrivers so I could get them nice and hot, then beat an e46 M3 and Wade in his Fox street car :P

I left autocross after a couple of seasons of only getting 30 "good" autocross runs out of $1300 sets of Hoosier A6s.

[AI#97]

10 years of this crap with Toyo and NASA and you guys haven't figured out that NASA caves to Toyo pay off every time while NOT doing what the customers ask? Seriously. They don't care and have proven it time and again. You guys are basically experiencing the "drug dealer" marketing game where they suckered you in and have been cutting the goods and raising the price for each hit.

FACT: Toyo and Nitto are the same company and are NOT allowed to compete. NASA has told us this for years when we asked to go to NT-01....IE, they WILL NOT replace a Toyo with a Nitto. Done. Next.

BFG R1's.....good for 8-11 heat cycles then become dangerous. Nearly put misty in the wall at T1 high in April....no similar rain tire available unless you use a BFG Rival. Decent contingency if you have 7 cars. Cheaper than Hoosier and FAST! I am running these now on both cars. A good choice or better than RR? They run wide for their sizes and have some body clearance issues sometimes.

Hoosier A6/R6....GREAT for 2 cycles.....ok for 4 more....then easy 2 second drop and really done. Pray the tread doesn't separate and tear up your car. (has happened to me 3 times) Has a rain and same contingency as BFG.

Hankook....will never buy one again. 4 heat cycles and becomes a hockey puck, no similar rain tire. No contingency....but $200/ea in 275/40/17.

Goodyear....stopped making them, left the game.

Avon....need input.

Yokohama....limited sizes....start at $400/tire.

Michelin..... We aren't made of Money.

Maxxis....need more input.

Falken.... Azenis 615's.... Reasonable wear. Used to be cheap. Has tread as a rain tire. May make all the sizes we need.

Dunlop Direzzas....Good option but will require shaving and they tend to get greasy with horsepower.

BFG Rivals.....Love em. I'd expect 3 events on a set but they do heat cycle out. Reasonably cheap and good size selection. Don't shave for a rain tire...but they suck in the rain even on a subaru!

Continental Series Tire.....no wide 17's. Enduro tire with only 1 or 2 heat cycles. Must upgrade wheels. oh, and expensive.

Pirelli WC tires.....no wide 17's and expensive. Enduro tire with only 1 or 2 heat cycles


My Mustang is currently sitting on NT-01's. I love them like I loved the V1 RA1's. I was going to run them at NOLA to just screw around and save my good BFG's for TWS. I bought 12 a few years back for $175ea shipped to my door and it's taken 4 years to kill them off even with all the DE's we have done with BOTH cars. The NT-01 is THE SOLUTION, however, you will NEVER get NASA on board with it unless they bail on Toyo at end of contract....but even then, I think they are bound to NOT use the Nitto.

Use that info as you wish but I have either run everything listed or seen our instructors use them on their cars over the years. The high level descriptions should be a good start for moving on if you want to bail on the RR's. Also not sure if you have considered the TOYO full slick....or if it's even available.

Useful info?

[Suck fumes]

Yah Toyo makes the RS1 slick but I've never tried it. I know nitto
NT01's are good. Haven't tried the NT05 yet, but I would like to know more about Maxxis tires cause they actually give away free tires for contingency. I know they also make a lot of doughnut spare tires for Ford and Nissan now haha

[Storm Trooper]

I really don't care about an Outlaw class. I want to run CMC and if we can all agree to a tire I will be happy to go with the rest of you. I called Phil's Tire the other day to order two RA1's because I had $175.00 in TB's that were going to go out on 9-11 (and I hope to never order another RR again). The lady at first told me if I was running RA1's I could not qualify for Toyo Bucks. I told her she was wrong since the RA1 is our rain tire. She said she knows that she is right as far as AI in concerned. I could see Toyo changing this where we have to run the RR. I have been wanting to find a tire like the old RA1 for years. A slow race tire that is the same until it cords. Is there another tire like that today? If the Nito is the way to go I'm in.

JJ
Rules state:
7.31.3 Maximum tire size is 275/40R17 for all cars. TheToyo Proxes RR tire is allowed in a region after the 2nd race event weekend of that region. The Toyo Proxes RA1 is also allowed.

[Storm Trooper]

Francis and myself ran NT01's for the Enduro.

[Storm Trooper]

I really don't care about an Outlaw class. I want to run CMC and if we can all agree to a tire I will be happy to go with the rest of you. I called Phil's Tire the other day to order two RA1's because I had $175.00 in TB's that were going to go out on 9-11 (and I hope to never order another RR again). The lady at first told me if I was running RA1's I could not qualify for Toyo Bucks. I told her she was wrong since the RA1 is our rain tire. She said she knows that she is right as far as AI in concerned. I could see Toyo changing this where we have to run the RR. I have been wanting to find a tire like the old RA1 for years. A slow race tire that is the same until it cords. Is there another tire like that today? If the Nito is the way to go I'm in.

JJ
So can we race running a different tire (NT01's) and just not have toyo bucks? Or will we be out of class and disqualified?

[Suck fumes]

They can't disqualify all of us haha

[GlennCMC70]

Surely we all realize we are talking about 2015, right?

[kbrewmr2]

seems like a decent spec tire to me
http://www.motoiq.com/MagazineArticles/ID/3584/Maxxis-RC-1-race-tire-The-prolonged-review.aspx?3

[Suck fumes]

Wow I want to try them! Maybe we can persuade them to add AI and CMC to their contingency list for next year.

[Fbody383]

I really don't care about an Outlaw class. I want to run CMC and if we can all agree to a tire I will be happy to go with the rest of you. I'm not sure what "CMC" is if all of us just agree to run the NT01. According to the contingency... there wouldn't be any. In practice, NASA could just say "no, you can't grid a car on NT01's in CMC for points."

Al/Glenn/Will/Dave B. - what's the proper way to get the Texas contingent views expressed nationally to see what the rest of the CMC folks think and bring it to HQ?

I need tires for 2015. If there are at least 5 or 6 cars that are willing to run in legit CMC trim on NT01s, I don't necessarily care if that's in Thunder or a PTX group.

[AI#97]

Oh, I forgot another one I tried.


Kumho V710.....could not manage any faster times than the V1 RA1's. LIfe sucked but had the victoracer as a rain.

The Maxxis is interesting but they don't have a rain tire. They were also supposed to release the 275/40/17 in May....not yet available. It's getting compared to the NT-01's for life and a little faster.

[kbrewmr2]

Wow I want to try them! Maybe we can persuade them to add AI and CMC to their contingency list for next year.
AIX, ST, PT (which any of your cars could fit) are already listed and they start good payouts at very small field sizes...

I'm probably going to be a life-long Hoosier guy, but, Maxxis sure seems to be trying to win people over with this sorta stuff and it seems to be working :) Wonder if you could redeem for trailer tires? :-X

[Trublu]

Picking up on Jerry's post in Mike's hijacked for sale post. I used to team rope and show cutting horses. Both payback a percentage of the entry fees (25-40%) as prize money and some usually included added money on top of that to attract more entrants. The new endurance series WRL seems to be following this approach. Beats the bejesus out of contingency money but then again I'm more in the crowd that enjoys hanging out and racing more than what tires I'm doing it on. I just hope this whole deal doesn't result in less folks I enjoy hanging out with at the track

[BryanL]

Couple of HSO's to throw out.

People are so upset with Toyo but want to buy a Nitto-they are the same company. I think you have to look at why they sponsor with NASA and why they make a certain tire. They are a business and have a goal in mind. I don't believe that goal is to make a tire that doesn't last so they can sell more race tires. Now maybe they are trying to make a tire that is faster as that is what the larger racing market wants. I'm sure they are aware of their competition and what kind of product Hoosier, BFG, etc put out. Would they sell more of a tire if it was 1 second slower than a Hoosier or 5 seconds slower than a Hoosier? Would they want to sponsor a class that doesn't run a fast tire? (Think back to why Ford didn't want the S197 detuned so much that a 79 Mustang/82 Camaro was beating it on track) Is their NASA sponsorship just part of their overall marketing/advertising budget and should they even care about CMC? If I'm working at TOYO I'm pretty certain CMC would never even be a reason to make any sort of decision.

Just using some simple swag math pertaining to CMC. I'm pretty sure there are less than 50 total CMC cars racing around a full season. If each racer buys 2 sets of tires per season that is 400 tires they sell in a year. If we assume that they sell the tire to the distributors less shipping of $200 per tire. A 20% profit margin means they make $40 per tire. $40 times 400 comes out to a whopping $16,000 in profit. Say each racer buys 4 sets for a season they ring the register for $32,000!!!! But wait-they have contingency's to pay out. They payout around $1,350 per Texas race weekend-likely less in other regions with less cars. But I'll guess 6 weekends in only 3 regions is $24,300. Then you have regional champ prize money and Nat. prize money of around $7,000. Gets pretty close to breakeven. Though I haven't a clue about how much they pay NASA HQ to sponsor everything nor what percentage might be attributable to CMC. I'm also not in the tire business so I may not have a clue about their true numbers. But I think I can still figure out that with the number of CMC racers and the amount of tires they purchase that it certainly doesn't warrant any resources or time being allocated from a corporate level for something that there is no way they could even make $50k.

So what do we do. Well this is America so you can do whatever you want. I'll still be going to the track, racing, hanging out and having a great time is what I hope to do. I'm all in for agreeing to run a different tire with the hope that it would actually last longer yet still make the car fun to drive and the racing just as fun. I will hate that someone isn't able to race because of the tire budget but there are so many more variables to consider when determining that "budget" from per race weekend entry/fuel/tire/carnage, car purchase, equipment/tool purchase, tow vehicle, trailer, etc. etc. to buying a boat, plane, kart, bike, rv, jeep, kids college or whatever that it really isn't the biggest reason why someone doesn't race. It just so happens that the tire budget isn't way off from what it costs for your yearly entry fees, or your yearly gas, or your yearly consumables/carnage, etc. Realize I have a new perspective on this whole shebang after having a car totaled. Which leads me to another thought in my head is that if you can't afford the tire budget, then you probably shouldn't be racing at all. Unfortunately because one should be ready to stomach totaling your car or being able to help someone if you tear up their car.

I"m sorry if I ruffled anyones feathers or anything. If we want to give a new tire a try let me know which one gets the most votes and I'll buy a set to run at TWS and ECR with Friday practices hopefully and see how it stands up for heat cycles. I would love to find anyway that would help lower the cost for everyone. Otherwise I'll either order a set of RA1's or just finish the year on old junk tires. I do worry that we really don't have any apples to apples comparison's for any of the other tires to see if they can really hold up to say 3 race weekends with 25 heat cycles. I have no problem gridding as an AIX car on whatever tire it is -whether I'm the only car in AIX or if all 20 CMC cars decide to run AIX on xyz tire.

[mach1]

I'll mount up some NT01's and spray paint TOYO RA1 on the side, that should do it....

[smitty328]

Couple of HSO's to throw out.



You Dallas people and your HSO's...

Turn on the Fan.

[AllZWay]

It is not a matter of affording the tires sometimes...... but the wanting to afford the tires. The cost of racing continues to grow as the rules change and the tires are just one more aspect of the continued costs...that could be contained if Toyo would stop screwing us on the tire.

No one was complaining about the original RA1...why did they change? To screw us out of more money.

[ShadowBolt]

Couple of HSO's to throw out.

People are so upset with Toyo but want to buy a Nitto-they are the same company. I think you have to look at why they sponsor with NASA and why they make a certain tire. They are a business and have a goal in mind. I don't believe that goal is to make a tire that doesn't last so they can sell more race tires. Now maybe they are trying to make a tire that is faster as that is what the larger racing market wants. I'm sure they are aware of their competition and what kind of product Hoosier, BFG, etc put out. Would they sell more of a tire if it was 1 second slower than a Hoosier or 5 seconds slower than a Hoosier? Would they want to sponsor a class that doesn't run a fast tire? (Think back to why Ford didn't want the S197 detuned so much that a 79 Mustang/82 Camaro was beating it on track) Is their NASA sponsorship just part of their overall marketing/advertising budget and should they even care about CMC? If I'm working at TOYO I'm pretty certain CMC would never even be a reason to make any sort of decision.

Just using some simple swag math pertaining to CMC. I'm pretty sure there are less than 50 total CMC cars racing around a full season. If each racer buys 2 sets of tires per season that is 400 tires they sell in a year. If we assume that they sell the tire to the distributors less shipping of $200 per tire. A 20% profit margin means they make $40 per tire. $40 times 400 comes out to a whopping $16,000 in profit. Say each racer buys 4 sets for a season they ring the register for $32,000!!!! But wait-they have contingency's to pay out. They payout around $1,350 per Texas race weekend-likely less in other regions with less cars. But I'll guess 6 weekends in only 3 regions is $24,300. Then you have regional champ prize money and Nat. prize money of around $7,000. Gets pretty close to breakeven. Though I haven't a clue about how much they pay NASA HQ to sponsor everything nor what percentage might be attributable to CMC. I'm also not in the tire business so I may not have a clue about their true numbers. But I think I can still figure out that with the number of CMC racers and the amount of tires they purchase that it certainly doesn't warrant any resources or time being allocated from a corporate level for something that there is no way they could even make $50k.

So what do we do. Well this is America so you can do whatever you want. I'll still be going to the track, racing, hanging out and having a great time is what I hope to do. I'm all in for agreeing to run a different tire with the hope that it would actually last longer yet still make the car fun to drive and the racing just as fun. I will hate that someone isn't able to race because of the tire budget but there are so many more variables to consider when determining that "budget" from per race weekend entry/fuel/tire/carnage, car purchase, equipment/tool purchase, tow vehicle, trailer, etc. etc. to buying a boat, plane, kart, bike, rv, jeep, kids college or whatever that it really isn't the biggest reason why someone doesn't race. It just so happens that the tire budget isn't way off from what it costs for your yearly entry fees, or your yearly gas, or your yearly consumables/carnage, etc. Realize I have a new perspective on this whole shebang after having a car totaled. Which leads me to another thought in my head is that if you can't afford the tire budget, then you probably shouldn't be racing at all. Unfortunately because one should be ready to stomach totaling your car or being able to help someone if you tear up their car.

I"m sorry if I ruffled anyones feathers or anything. If we want to give a new tire a try let me know which one gets the most votes and I'll buy a set to run at TWS and ECR with Friday practices hopefully and see how it stands up for heat cycles. I would love to find anyway that would help lower the cost for everyone. Otherwise I'll either order a set of RA1's or just finish the year on old junk tires. I do worry that we really don't have any apples to apples comparison's for any of the other tires to see if they can really hold up to say 3 race weekends with 25 heat cycles. I have no problem gridding as an AIX car on whatever tire it is -whether I'm the only car in AIX or if all 20 CMC cars decide to run AIX on xyz tire.

My problem is not just the price of the tires it's how fast they heat cycle out. I put on a brand new set of RR's for the first race at Hallett. So five heat cycles on that set. Are they a second slower now? Some say yes. I disagree with you on this BL. I do not want to have to purchase a new set of tires every race weekend. Can I? Sure, but how many people will feel like Mike does right now? Maybe what I am hoping for is not possible. I wish we had a tire that you could run two sets in a six race weekend season and not be giving up anything. Maybe it can't be done. I would settle for the RA1 we had prior to the RR if that is the best we can get. You say "if you can't afford the tire bill maybe you should not be racing". How much of a Tire bill? How many in CMC would be willing to buy a new set of RR's every race weekend? I'm guessing very few.....I guess maybe they should not be racing?

JJ

[BryanL]

I agree with you James and Jerry-Richard pointed this out that it's not the wear- it's about the degradation after 5 heat cycles. I certainly may not come across the way my mind thinks on paper as writing was always my worst subject. I know Jerry, James and I all feel the same way about the overall cost of the racing and things such as brakes, shocks, etc. I thought about this as I'm going to be taking my shocks off this weekend. I would love the limit on shocks to be half what it is now and now 4 piston brakes-though neither are needed to win and they both can be justified especially the brakes over many season's of racing and if your original car comes with sorry brakes-LT'1.

When I started I think I did a full season on one set of RA1's-I would like to get back to something similar to that or at least only two sets for a season. I have only bought 4 tires this year and don't want to buy anymore. I'm not interested in nor do I want something that you have to show up with a new set for every race. That's why I'm here and not in other classes. Others have joined our group because of this very problem with other classes like Time trial, spec pinata etc. I know there are others that can certainly afford whatever series they choose to run yet they want the same things I want and choose CMC.

Jerry brings up a good point about what is a reasonable tire budget. Well everyone will have a different answer depending on how much they want to spend, can spend, and how bad they want to win. I want under $1k per year which is how it was when I started yet I'm not sure that is possible. If our class because of the RR becomes one that you have to run a new tire every weekend then it will certainly impact some racers. I'll probably be fine to stay on my old tires and stay in the mid pack like in the past. Though even before the RR it always seemed I would see the trophy girls putting on fresh rubber for the money races or especially the final at hallett. I think people are fine to race without new tires even if it's needed to be on the podium. That has happened in our class in the past and goes on in other classes. Now whether they should or shouldn't because they can't afford tires is up to them.

I'm merely pointing out that we need to realize what the alternatives are before we really become a squeaky wheel. I believe a squeaky wheel either gets the grease or it gets replaced-I fear getting replaced more than anything. So, before we go raise hell maybe we should have something to present as an alternative. We haven't been happy with what they have brought to us so why would we expect something different or expect them to find a solution? Maybe we need to find the solution? I'm not saying I'm right but just trying to be the devils advocate.

[michaelmosty]

I think we can all say the RA1 of the mid 2000's was the best and will never be available again.

I also feel that the RA1 from around 2008-current is still a good tire. I have always bought my RA1's at either 5/32's (if I was doing a practice day to wear them down) or a "thick" 4/32 if not practicing. I flip my tires after every event and have been fortunate to always get at least 3 events out of a set of tires. I truly feel that b/w heat cycle 10-15 the tire is still just as fast as when new. Even during the 3rd event (heat cycle 15-20) they are still very good and at maybe only fall off 1/2 a second.
I'm not saying the RA1 is the best solution going forward, but for what is available to us it seems much better than the RR.

I agreem with what Bryan says, I would doubt CMC comes into the discussion when Toyo is determining how to make their new fancy tire.

[Suck fumes]

A bunch of us should enter AIX and try the Maxxis tires. The winner gets two tires and if you win both days that's a whole set for free! $1k worth of tires.

Plus 2nd and 3rd get one free tire as well as long as there are 5 starters.

[Storm Trooper]

Just a thought.
What I'm concerned about that this is a precursor to a two race weekends. Less heat cycles on the tires! I can't run a 45 minute race with my gas tank that would force me to go to a fuel-cell. Ugh!!!

[MikeP99Z]

The Maxxis review that Ken posted was a nice read. I'd be interested in reality on a race car at race pace for performance/degradation. Buy me a set Aaron, and I'll try them =) I'm done buying tires for the year lol (except for the truck, dammit).

[Suck fumes]

Yah I'm done racing for the year too haha. My new budget is for diapers!

[Supercharged111]

seems like a decent spec tire to me
http://www.motoiq.com/MagazineArticles/ID/3584/Maxxis-RC-1-race-tire-The-prolonged-review.aspx?3

I read that, but really question how hard he pushes his car. Sure, he has 9 years track experience but how many short runs did he make before he sorted out his cooling system? There've been some growing pains with that car illustrated in some of his previous articles so I wouldn't place too much stock in that tire's durability based off of that article. I would still remain curious. This is the first long term R compound test I've seen them run.

[ShadowBolt]

I just ordered two tires from Phil's. Even with the $175.00 in Toto Bucks my bill is $360.00. That means the tires cost me $267.50 plus shipping! I have been getting tires from John George at $240.00. I really never pay much attention to the cost as it goes on the wife's credit card. I had in my mind I was paying around $200.00 each. Almost $1100.00 a set. Have we lost our minds?

JJ

[Suck fumes]

Phil's is more cause they are in New York. However they shave the RA1's better than anyone in the country.

[BryanL]

I just ordered two tires from Phil's. Even with the $175.00 in Toto Bucks my bill is $360.00. That means the tires cost me $267.50 plus shipping! I have been getting tires from John George at $240.00. I really never pay much attention to the cost as it goes on the wife's credit card. I had in my mind I was paying around $200.00 each. Almost $1100.00 a set. Have we lost our minds?

JJ

That's about what I paid for RR's last time and around the same at all vendors including shipping. You also paid $20 each for shaving.

Have you bought a set of tires for a street vehicle? 18" tires on my wife's SUV were $145 a piece 7 years ago-now they are $240. (oil) Somehow that inflation works out higher than the govt. reporting under 2%-but maybe they include tires as part of the ex food/energy.

[ShadowBolt]

That's about what I paid for RR's last time and around the same at all vendors including shipping. You also paid $20 each for shaving.

Have you bought a set of tires for a street vehicle? 18" tires on my wife's SUV were $145 a piece 7 years ago-now they are $240. (oil) Somehow that inflation works out higher than the govt. reporting under 2%-but maybe they include tires as part of the ex food/energy.
I was just shocked. I don't know why I was thinking $200.00 per tire. Closer to $300.00.

Yes I know about inflation. It is real. The SOB in the White House says there is zero inflation.

JJ

[mach1]

Yah I'm done racing for the year too haha. My new budget is for diapers!

I feel your pain!

[AI#97]

The Maxxis review that Ken posted was a nice read. I'd be interested in reality on a race car at race pace for performance/degradation. Buy me a set Aaron, and I'll try them =) I'm done buying tires for the year lol (except for the truck, dammit).

As soon as the 17's are available I plan on trying them.....I will need tires for TWS unless I stick with the Nittos but I am chasing a 1:48 going CCW.

Sean, the fuel cell deal isn't that big of a deal. I just put a 25 Gallon FIA GT3 cell in my car for around $900 and I get to do it again in 5 years.....ugh.

[AI#97]

I just ordered two tires from Phil's. Even with the $175.00 in Toto Bucks my bill is $360.00. That means the tires cost me $267.50 plus shipping! I have been getting tires from John George at $240.00. I really never pay much attention to the cost as it goes on the wife's credit card. I had in my mind I was paying around $200.00 each. Almost $1100.00 a set. Have we lost our minds?

JJ

BFG R1 in 275/40/17 are $281 at Phil's.....and you can find them at tire rack on sale for $250 twice a year......they have been my best Speed for the Buck but I get about 1.5 events out of a set and have to go to my back up to finish the second weekend.

[Suck fumes]

BFG's heat cycle out bad like Toyos. The front running mx5 cup guys only used them for 3 sessions then chunked em.

[Al Fernandez]

I would suggest lining up a discussion session Friday night at TWS with Will and Dave. They're our best direct link to NASA HQ. I'm comfortable stating that the RR cycles out is a fact, and reasonably comfortable stating that the current RA1 may not have the life of the old ones but that it doesnt heat cycle out is also a fact. Correct that if you dont agree. I am not comfortable stating that X tire exists that does not cycle out as has been proven in a sprint race environment. I dont consider TT or DE a race environment.

[Suck fumes]

Deciding on a good tire is going to require NASA to invest in various sets and having someone do tests on them. That's what SCCA did a few years ago when SM kept switching tires yr to yr and finally settled on Hoosiers. NASA should buy a set of nittos, Maxxis etc and have someone actually test them in a real environment with a data system installed and get real data instead of everyone just playing the "well this might work" game. That's the only way NASA will make people happy.

Now I know Toyo pays a lot of money so I understand the business side of it but I would hope that one of these other manufactures would step up and pay NASA to run their tires if they are better.

[ShadowBolt]

I would be happy with the newer RA1 but would really like to see us be able to get the old RA1 since the RR is Toyo's main tire now.

JJ

[Fbody383]

I would suggest lining up a discussion session Friday night at TWS with Will and Dave. They're our best direct link to NASA HQ.Are you raising your hand to see if they have time and would be happy to join in? I don't think there are pitchforks and torches involved... c'mon this is Texas. (It would be ARs and high power LED flashlights)


I dont consider TT or DE a race environment. What about enduro laps? I believe there's pretty good CMC and AI data on the NT01 from the last couple of enduros.

[Al Fernandez]

The issue isnt durability (again correct me if I'm wrong), rather a loss of peak grip after a few heat cycles. Endurance racines are therefore entirely out as data because of the nature of enduros (not running 10/10ths). We're not talking seconds a lap drop here.

Now...this might ruffle a few feathers...but are we open to the idea that the old RA1 really wasnt as good as we remember and rather that back in the good ol' days we just werent as fast as we are now? I mean that in the collective since I'm not faster lol. But honestly, year over year lap times come down. Sure both AI and CMC had a bump in power and CMC had a bump in tire size but that was a one time deal and the lap times still come down. Maybe we just didnt know any better back then. Maybe we just werent pushing things hard enough for the 1/4 second a lap drop in peak grip to matter. Once upon a time off the shelf Koni's were rare and top guys were running Billsten HDs. Podium mustangs ran "H&R Race" spring rates. Nobody blew out control arm bushings nor did they tear out control arm mounts. Just thinking out loud...

[ShadowBolt]

Now...this might ruffle a few feathers...but are we open to the idea that the old RA1 really wasnt as good as we remember and rather that back in the good ol' days we just werent as fast as we are now? I mean that in the collective since I'm not faster lol. But honestly, year over year lap times come down. Sure both AI and CMC had a bump in power and CMC had a bump in tire size but that was a one time deal and the lap times still come down. Maybe we just didnt know any better back then. Maybe we just werent pushing things hard enough for the 1/4 second a lap drop in peak grip to matter. Once upon a time off the shelf Koni's were rare and top guys were running Billsten HDs. Podium mustangs ran "H&R Race" spring rates. Nobody blew out control arm bushings nor did they tear out control arm mounts. Just thinking out loud...

Al, we have talked about this every time we have this discussion. It is possible the old RA1 was the same as the new one but I'm willing to bet it's not. One thing for sure is we will never know so that is why I said I would be happy to go back to the latest RA1.

JJ

[Fbody383]

The issue isnt durability (again correct me if I'm wrong), rather a loss of peak grip after a few heat cycles. Endurance races are therefore entirely out as data because of the nature of enduros (not running 10/10ths). We're not talking seconds a lap drop here.Not wrong - just perspective. If a set of tires was $100 I might not care about the rapid drop. If a set of tires was $2,000 - and dropped 10 seconds after 1 heat cycle but ran consistently after that and lasted 3 seasons I might not care. I am entirely comfortable that somebody (if not most of you guys) is ALWAYS going to outspend and/or outprep me. Along with your impressively good looks and natural driving talent...

If a $100 tire is durable enough to race on safely, everybody runs it, and the racing is close, I don't care what the absolute laptimes are. We could race on an oiled down skidpad and if it was safe, fun, and "cheap" I would be in.

p.s. - if I can ever get to 10/10ths in a sprint race i'll let you know.

[BryanL]

The issue isnt durability (again correct me if I'm wrong), rather a loss of peak grip after a few heat cycles. Endurance racines are therefore entirely out as data because of the nature of enduros (not running 10/10ths). We're not talking seconds a lap drop here.

Now...this might ruffle a few feathers...but are we open to the idea that the old RA1 really wasnt as good as we remember and rather that back in the good ol' days we just werent as fast as we are now? I mean that in the collective since I'm not faster lol. But honestly, year over year lap times come down. Sure both AI and CMC had a bump in power and CMC had a bump in tire size but that was a one time deal and the lap times still come down. Maybe we just didnt know any better back then. Maybe we just werent pushing things hard enough for the 1/4 second a lap drop in peak grip to matter. Once upon a time off the shelf Koni's were rare and top guys were running Billsten HDs. Podium mustangs ran "H&R Race" spring rates. Nobody blew out control arm bushings nor did they tear out control arm mounts. Just thinking out loud...

I think that is a definite possiblity. When I started a set of tires would last all season but I was slow as christmas and only slid the car when I spun.

[Suck fumes]

Toyo did change their compounds because back in 2008 or 2009? I remember SCCA had gotten a couple "new" RA1 sets and gave them to MSR Houston for Rivera and Ott to test to see what they were like and for data purposes on the miatas. Now why would Toyo do that if the tires stayed the same?? Mmmmm

[blk96gt]

I need to order tires for TWS. I think I will order some RR's and give them another try before I go back to RA1's. Maybe it's a case where the track determines what tires to use? I'm about 98% sure the RR is faster at TWS, but I haven't tried them at other tracks.

[Fbody383]

I'm about 98% sure the RR is faster at TWS, but I haven't tried them at other tracks. To me the question is up to what number of heat cycles? Will be good input since you have some skill around there.

[ShadowBolt]

I talked to Michael last night and he and I both hope we never have to buy another set of RR's.

JJ

[Suck fumes]

The tire life is actually pretty long but don't expect it to grip. I was surprised how long it actually takes to wear it all the way down.

[ShadowBolt]

The tire life is actually pretty long but don't expect it to grip. I was surprised how long it actually takes to wear it all the way down.
I agree. I was told that they lose some time after five heat cycles but after 10 they are as hard as rock. Still lots of rubber left though.


JJ

[mach1]

I Will be on 2 sticker RR's and 2 14hc RR's at tws :-/

[Suck fumes]

Just put the stickers on the right side and you'll be fine.

[blk96gt]

To me the question is up to what number of heat cycles? Will be good input since you have some skill around there.

I've got 8 or 9 heat cycles on my RR's right now, and will likely use them for at least one of the invert races. I will probably use them during the T&T as well. I also have a set of 12-15 HC RA1's that I may play around with too. I'm thinking about running the HC RR's for the invert race Saturday and the RA1's on the Sunday invert race.

If my car doesn't blow up or anything, I'd be willing to do a few laps with the HC RA1's during one of the DE sessions on Saturday and then do another session around the same time of day on Sunday with the HC RR's. I can send the Traqmate data to anyone who wants it (if there appears to be much of a difference for lap times).

[michaelmosty]

Just put the stickers on the right side and you'll be fine.
If you do that, note to self:
Pass Tyler after T3, 4, or 9. :^)

[GlennCMC70]

My thoughts exactly.

[mach1]

I'll just compensate with my cool APC wing yo...

[kbrewmr2]

but now he knows that you knows and can plan a defense. But by me saying that know you know that he knows that you know that he knows that....

[marshall_mosty]

I'll have my 17HC and 7HC RR's ready to fight...

[mach1]

I'll have my 17HC and 7HC RR's ready to fight...

We can fight for midpack in our respective classes! Thanks Toyo!

[ShadowBolt]

We can fight for midpack in our respective classes! Thanks Toyo!
I will be right with you. I have RR's with lots of HC's and two new RA1's.

JJ

[mach1]

two new RA1's.

JJ
Cheating bastard!
(unless full tread)

[Suck fumes]

Put RR on one side and RA1 on the other. Then you'll know which is better haha

[BlueFirePony]

Put RR on one side and RA1 on the other. Then you'll know which is better haha
"That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works!"

[Fbody383]

I need to check the stock... could be some 16/17 combos going on by ECR.

[mach1]

I've got 19HC on my RR's and they felt great at TWS, felt like crap at Hallett the event before (surface maybe).
Anyone know when the next drop off is for the RR's? I'm worried about 19HC for ECR.

[ShadowBolt]

I've got 19HC on my RR's and they felt great at TWS, felt like crap at Hallett the event before (surface maybe).
Anyone know when the next drop off is for the RR's? I'm worried about 19HC for ECR.

Don't worry. Michael and I are in the same boat as you are. Maybe we were told a bunch of BS about the RR's. At TWS either the tires were still good or Michael would have ran a 1:53 if he was on RA1's. I bought two RA1's since I had Toyo Bucks that were going to expire. After TWS it looks like the RR is the better tire. Mine still look good with 17 H/C's on them.


JJ

[michaelmosty]

Don't worry. Michael and I are in the same boat as you are. Maybe we were told a bunch of BS about the RR's. At TWS either the tires were still good or Michael would have ran a 1:53 if he was on RA1's. I bought two RA1's since I had Toyo Bucks that were going to expire. After TWS it looks like the RR is the better tire. Mine still look good with 17 H/C's on them.


JJ

JJ
I can say I have no clue what the ideal situation is with the tires, RR's vs RA1. After Hallett I would have promised I would never buy RR's again. Now after TWS, like Tyler said I thought the RR's felt great!!
At Hallett on near new RR's I was about 3/4 of a second off my times from the last 4 years there. At TWS, my best lap was over 1 second faster than I have ever gone going CCW. I have no clue how there can be this big a difference in feel. If you take out the wet sessions, my RR's now have 13 heat cycles on them. I'm going to run them at ECR and compare to the last few years lap times at ECR.

I did order 1 RR to use some Toyo Bucks from Hallett. The wear on the RR is better than the RA1 IMO. I have no clue if the new surface at Hallett hates RR's or if something else crazy is going on. Heck, I might run RA1's at Hallett and RR's at every other track.

[Supercharged111]

Was the weather cooler than usual at TWS? Do you think it may have had an effect on lap times?

[Rob Liebbe]

I have no clue if the new surface at Hallett hates RR's or if something else crazy is going on.

Could just be the hangovers from Friday and Saturday nights. Just guessing, and reflecting on the fact that Al got 4th place.

[Suck fumes]

Track surface and weather play a big role in all that. Msr cresson used to always favor bald RA1's on the Miata but on the heavier cars it doesn't seem to matter as much. I think it's all situational based on weather more so than anything else.

[BryanL]

At TWS I ran 3 year old RA1's with who knows how many heat cycles and RR's with maybe 15 heat cycles. Don't think I saw a difference in times or felt any different.

[ShadowBolt]

At TWS I ran 3 year old RA1's with who knows how many heat cycles and RR's with maybe 15 heat cycles. Don't think I saw a difference in times or felt any different.

Was the track just so good it made no difference? If we were at Cresson I bet the difference would have been noticeable. TWS has good grip. MSRC does not.

JJ

[AI#97]

Unless you guys are documenting tire temp data on both tires in the same conditions, all the speculation is pointless. Back when the 888 arrived we tested tire temps at cresson on my car. RA1 ran in the 150-175 range. 888 ran around 240 and felt greasy half way through the out lap. If the tire is being used beyond its designed heat range, no wonder they are cycling out. Until you test and optimize setup for the RR, you aren't going to get the performance out of the tire. If you get temp data and find you are running in the 230+ range, figure out how to get the temp under 190 and see how long the tire lasts. It may require a complete spring and shock swap.

[ShadowBolt]

Unless you guys are documenting tire temp data on both tires in the same conditions, all the speculation is pointless. Back when the 888 arrived we tested tire temps at cresson on my car. RA1 ran in the 150-175 range. 888 ran around 240 and felt greasy half way through the out lap. If the tire is being used beyond its designed heat range, no wonder they are cycling out. Until you test and optimize setup for the RR, you aren't going to get the performance out of the tire. If you get temp data and find you are running in the 230+ range, figure out how to get the temp under 190 and see how long the tire lasts. It may require a complete spring and shock swap.


Matt,

None of us are sure about anything on the RR's. The top Spec Miata guys are saying after five heat cycles don't expect to finish in the top five and after 10-11 H/C's throw them out. We have not tested or ran the tires long enough to know what they are going to do. We were expecting them to fall off bad after only a few heat cycles based on what we were told. So far it looks like that may not be the case with CMC. The RR's do look like they are going to last longer than a 4/32" RA1. I installed a new set of RR's at Hallett and TWS and they still look damn good. Michael did the same.

JJ

[marshall_mosty]

I have a set of 20 H/C RR's and some 4 H/C RR's. I will run them back to back at ECR and provide my input to see the difference between basically "new" and "dead"... The 20 H/C RR's still look good from sighting the wear "hole" on the tire. They could easily go another 20 H/C's as far as rubber depth goes.

[mach1]

The 20 H/C RR's still look good from sighting the wear "hole" on the tire. They could easily go another 20 H/C's as far as rubber depth goes.
Mine are the same way, wear is pretty good on these. I think I will take my 20+hc RRs and move them to my TNT wheels for messing around/backups

[AI#97]

Jerry, I know you already know this, but comparing a 2300# car with 100rwhp to a 3150# car with 260rwhp and a lot more torque is apples to oranges. Key in the fact miatas actually have mechanical grip and effectively have more tire on the ground per pound, there is just no way to use the data from them especially given they spend huge money for 2 hp advantages. Of course they hate tires that aren't fresh. Degradation that is acceptable to one driver is not going to be the same as another.


I had this discussion with someone today about how to maximize the RR's. It's the same thing that happened with the R888's where we were told by NASA upper MGMT and TOYO that we had to REALLY soften up the cars to make the tires work correctly. That's great and all, but it forces racers to test significantly more and maybe make wholesale changes to their cars thereby adding costs to the "budget" series. It only hurts the racers and widens the gap between the trophy girls and the mid pack slackers.

Look at your race group as a whole and I bet the guys who aren't complaining that much have fairly soft setups already....or test A LOT. If you are forced to run a softer spring setup, shock packages and correct valving are going to be KEY to car setup and being fast. If you wonder why McSpaddin and Wirtz were so fast, it's because they did a LOT of setup and testing to make the car work. That costs time and money. Did Toyo screw you guys? Of course. Can you fix the tire situation? not likely. Time to move on and do the testing to make it work again. Hate to use this saying because it came from "The Todd", but only worry about the things you can control to keep moving forward. Otherwise you are just banging you head against the wall or arguing with idiots.