"CMC-S", "AI-Lite" Discussion

[marshall_mosty]

Here you guys go... enjoy.

[CMC17]

Since I cannot modify CMC17 to run in CMC-S, I don't plan on going anywhere. Well, maybe the stands as a spectator unless someone wants to give me the super secret recipe how to make 240+ hp from a "stock" 302. :roll:

[AllZWay]

I have what I have and still plan to race it, but I don't think I would have built and old race car, if I had been aware of the new rules.

I think I have the worst luck in the world when it comes to racing and picking a class. :o

[marshall_mosty]

This in intersting... from http://www.camaromustangchallenge.com/cmcbb/viewtopic.php?t=2023


With this, the only cars of significant manufactured volumes not included are the 93-95 Cobras. These 93-95 Cobras, rated at 235-240Hp/285Tq, will be allowed in CMC as normal CMC cars. Folks running these motors will be allowed restrictors if necessary to get under 230. If nothing else this provides a legal alternative intake,cam,TB, etc. for 5.0 cars to make up some power.


Does this mean parts from 93-95 Cobras can be used on a '94 Mustang GT within CMC?


Yes it does.
Tony

I'm making the ASSumption that it would also apply to 79-93 Mustangs as well as 94-95 GT's. I bet a fair percentage of the CMC guys will be trying to find GT40 irons and Cobra intakes, legal "hot" cams, and a set of roller rockers... at least everyone should be right at the 230/300 mark now...

Mike Bell, I believe you have at least part of your enternal question answered... but we'll see where this goes.

NASA is better than a soap opera! 8)

[CMC17]

This in intersting... from http://www.camaromustangchallenge.com/cmcbb/viewtopic.php?t=2023


With this, the only cars of significant manufactured volumes not included are the 93-95 Cobras. These 93-95 Cobras, rated at 235-240Hp/285Tq, will be allowed in CMC as normal CMC cars. Folks running these motors will be allowed restrictors if necessary to get under 230. If nothing else this provides a legal alternative intake,cam,TB, etc. for 5.0 cars to make up some power.


Does this mean parts from 93-95 Cobras can be used on a '94 Mustang GT within CMC?


Yes it does.
Tony

I'm making the ASSumption that it would also apply to 79-93 Mustangs as well as 94-95 GT's. I bet a fair percentage of the CMC guys will be trying to find GT40 irons and Cobra intakes, legal "hot" cams, and a set of roller rockers... at least everyone should be right at the 230/300 mark now...

Mike Bell, I believe you have at least part of your enternal question answered... but we'll see where this goes.

NASA is better than a soap opera! 8)


It will definitely increase the amount of cars that will be "legal" now. lol


I kiiiiidd... I kiiiidd

[Lewis Tanner]

Well, that sucks balls. I sold my now legal Cobra intake because it was not legal and now I'm stuck with 204 RWHP. Thanks for the heads up... :roll:

[oz98cobra]

I've got mixed feelings about this one - on one hand I see the need (to accomodate late model cars, and the Cobra that had no where to race other than full blown AI) - but on the other hand, the V8 classes are being diluted even further - which is actually a retrograde step IMO. This is typical of NASA's well intended trait of being all things to all people, but may ultimately do more harm than good?

Having more classes might help individuals more easily fit their cars into a class and/or budget, but it does absolutely nothing for the quality of the racing! Case in point is the excitement of Sunday's CMC race - the large closely fought CMC field provided the best racing and got the most attention from the commentator and spectators. By adding CMC-S, we will dilute that field somewhat, and more importantly, dilute the AI field, which actually needs to grow some more!

But I do agree that something needs to change in CMC to accomodate cars that are not currently eligible. IMO, CMC does need to evolve, but it should do so in a manner that keeps it as a single class and not 2 separate ones. This could be done quite easily by having differential power to weight rules for newer cars, and/or compromising on power levels by bringing exisiting CMC cars up to say 260 while restricting newer models to similar levels - and allowing 13" brakes and 17" wheel/tire combos all around, etc.

This would allow those who want to race a late model or Cobra to do so, while not diluting the classes or taking anything away from what CMC already is. I don't see any engine configurations of exisitng CMC cars that would have any difficulty making another 30hp with little more than a cam and/or some basic headwork, and many configurations would be easier than that - an upgrade in the $100s of dollars, not $1000s. A change like this would also address the other issue that has been discussed lately of some stock engine configurations not making the class power numbers easily while other do.

Would this mean CMC will be faster? Of course - by a second or two a lap on most tracks - so we will only be 3 seconds a lap slower than AI instead of 5? Once again that's a good thing from a racing perspective.

So I say bring on some changes, but not a new class - just bring the existing one into the 21st century!

[RichardP]

I like the new class. I certainly don't agree with requiring the hundred or so of current CMC cars to spend money to come up to the performance of the newer cars.

Also in my opinion, the people calling the new class AI-Lite don't have a clue on the realities of the current AI rules set. The philosophies of the two classes are about 180 degrees apart...

Richard P.

[donovan]

Also in my opinion, the people calling the new class AI-Lite don't have a clue on the realities of the current AI rules set. The philosophies of the two classes are about 180 degrees apart...

Richard P.

It would take $1,000's of dollor and tons of time to convert my car to a CMC or a CMC-S car... maybe a couple of the AI cars could step down. Heck, most AI cars can't be converted to CMC... if you have in the floor subframes or any seam welding your chassis will never be legal in CMC.

AI-Lite, NO...

Also, the way I read what Tony G spelled out is that the CMC-S is really only for the Mod motor Mustangs and the 05's... A Fox chassis could not make the power to compete in CMC-S according to the way I'm reading it... please correct me if I'm wrong!

David D.

[AI#97]

Well, to answer James' question from the other thread....the 05 stangs are putting out about 270/275 at the wheels stock, to get any more is VERY expensive given that the computer tuning is very sensative to every little mod.

The other "intent" of CMC-S as stated, was to keep costs down for the racers who couldn't make it to AI. Well, I don't see too many people rushing out to snatch up $20k street cars to make them into race cars when there are MANY CMC racers out there with less than $10k in the car race ready.

My take on the whole thing is that those that MIGHT have been cheating in CMC with using GT-40 parts will now be legal and they created a -S class to let in the camaros that were too difficult to homologate into CMC... I think what you will end up getting is a CMC class full of Mustangs and a CMC-S class full of Camaros.

The national boys may have good intent with this but I THINK they may have just shot themselves in the foot while they were trying to run with a full head of steam and are realizing they still have babies' legs....

Who knows for sure but it will be interesting to see if more cars show in the region!

[Waco Racer]

Based on the Nationals I don't think CMC is going all Mustang any time soon. Also, look at PTB. Joel Lipperini took a T2 Mustang to some impressive lap times with fewer suspension mods than CMC allows. He is a little over the proposed power numbers and knows the course but his times are about where CMC-S will be.

[marshall_mosty]

I think allowing CMC cars to do "cheap" modifications to reach the 230/300 level is a good thing. I personally would rather run a restrictor than run 100% of the current combo... for durability.

[RichardP]

From another board:

The top ten finishers in the national say a lot about the parity in CMC. We had 5 Mustangs and 5 Camaros. There were 2 fox bodies, two 3rd gens, 3 SN95s and three 4th gens one of them running the 250HP higher weight option. Engines consisted of 3 LT1s, 2 TPIs, three 5.0 fuelies, a 4.6 and a 5.0 carb. About the only thing missing was a carb car from the general and a Pontiac.

-----------------------------
There is good parity in CMC right now and I'm certain there will be good parity in the new CMC class although it might take a while and will probably take some tweaking of the current numbers. If you are looking for 100% rules stability, the new CMC class is not for you. It was stated right off the bat that the specifics of the new class would be tweaked as necessary.

As far as Mustangs go, there is a T2 SCCA National Championship Mustang in our region that is planning on showing up to our final event this year. Unfortunately, it will show up as an uncompetitive AI car as it was modded before this was announced...


Richard P.

[Mike Bell]

This in intersting... from http://www.camaromustangchallenge.com/cmcbb/viewtopic.php?t=2023


With this, the only cars of significant manufactured volumes not included are the 93-95 Cobras. These 93-95 Cobras, rated at 235-240Hp/285Tq, will be allowed in CMC as normal CMC cars. Folks running these motors will be allowed restrictors if necessary to get under 230. If nothing else this provides a legal alternative intake,cam,TB, etc. for 5.0 cars to make up some power.


Does this mean parts from 93-95 Cobras can be used on a '94 Mustang GT within CMC?


Yes it does.
Tony

I'm making the ASSumption that it would also apply to 79-93 Mustangs as well as 94-95 GT's. I bet a fair percentage of the CMC guys will be trying to find GT40 irons and Cobra intakes, legal "hot" cams, and a set of roller rockers... at least everyone should be right at the 230/300 mark now...

Mike Bell, I believe you have at least part of your enternal question answered... but we'll see where this goes.

NASA is better than a soap opera! 8)

Enternal, external or eternal - it's all good from here on out. Like LT, I just got fubar'd on the timing of the info, my motor was just rebuilt including the stock E7's which got all new valves and guides. However, I'm not going to look a gift horse in the mouth. I'll start shopping for new parts and get them installed over the winter, this is good news indeed (at least from where I sit).

I have no heartburn on the CMC-S class, looks to me like a place for old SCCA T2 cars and that's a good thing IMHO. They weren't gonna be competitive in AI without big $$ and they are too stout for plain-jane CMC.

[AI#97]

As far as Mustangs go, there is a T2 SCCA National Championship Mustang in our region that is planning on showing up to our final event this year. Unfortunately, it will show up as an uncompetitive AI car as it was modded before this was announced...


Richard P.

Chris' ride for october?! :wink:

[Lewis Tanner]

I'll start shopping for new parts and get them installed over the winter, this is good news indeed (at least from where I sit).

Well, now that my parts shopping list for the winter is:

New Roof.
New Windshield.
New Trailer.
New Heads.
New Cam.
New Intake.
New Mass Air.
New Throttle Body.
New ECM.
New injectors.
New Rocker Arms.

I'm not sure there's going to be any left for the race season. It was close with the bodywork and trailer purchase. I'm pretty sure I think allowing GT40 heads, let alone full on Cobra motors, in CMC is a stupid thing.

[gt40]

So MikeB and LT are thinking of spending big bucks to upgrade to CMC-S...

Why? What's the compelling reason to move to a more expensive class if you don't have to?

[Mike Bell]

No. Those parts are simply to get the SBF up to 230/300 type numbers in a repeatable fashion for CMC. Not CMC-S.

[Lewis Tanner]

So MikeB and LT are thinking of spending big bucks to upgrade to CMC-S...

Why? What's the compelling reason to move to a more expensive class if you don't have to?

Not quite. Tony has now stated that CMC cars can run GT40 heads, Cobra intakes, Cobra Cams, Cobra Roller Rockers, Cobra Mass Air, Cobra Computers, Cobra Injectors, and then just toss in a restrictor to lower the power down to meet the spec.

The kicker is I just sold all of that shit off because it wasn't legal.

I guess all of those "stock" 302's that were magically making the numbers don't have anything to fear any more...

Yes I'm bitter about having yet another $1000 and a motor teardown thrown in front of my build. I was also bitter about building my car to the letter of the rules and being 25 HP down, so I guess the bitter doesn't change. Maybe I'm just bitter.

CMC, home of the $15000 $10000 race car...

[AI#97]

So MikeB and LT are thinking of spending big bucks to upgrade to CMC-S...

Why? What's the compelling reason to move to a more expensive class if you don't have to?

Not quite. Tony has now stated that CMC cars can run GT40 heads, Cobra intakes, Cobra Cams, Cobra Roller Rockers, Cobra Mass Air, Cobra Computers, Cobra Injectors, and then just toss in a restrictor to lower the power down to meet the spec.

The kicker is I just sold all of that shit off because it wasn't legal.

I guess all of those "stock" 302's that were magically making the numbers don't have anything to fear any more...

Yes I'm bitter about having yet another $1000 and a motor teardown thrown in front of my build. I was also bitter about building my car to the letter of the rules and being 25 HP down, so I guess the bitter doesn't change. Maybe I'm just bitter.

CMC, home of the $15000 $10000 race car...

Where's burch when I need him to quote me?!

'Ya'll should just........' :lol:

[Boudy]

Let me get this straight, there was bitching because if a Mustang made the numbers, he was called a cheater... Now, the rules allow for production parts that fix the afore mentioned problem and bow to behold, "Bitching"

WTF!?!

Boudy

[Lewis Tanner]

Let me get this straight, there was bitching because if a Mustang made the numbers, he was called a cheater... Now, the rules allow for production parts that fix the afore mentioned problem and bow to behold, "Bitching"

That's pretty much it.

[marshall_mosty]

And to think I just let my GT40 irons and my explorer (Cobra clone) intake go for $650 total... bummer. I could have helped out my fellow racers. Too bad I'm out of speed parts to sell at the moment.

[gt40]

And to think I just let my GT40 irons and my explorer (Cobra clone) intake go for $650 total... bummer. I could have helped out my fellow racers. Too bad I'm out of speed parts to sell at the moment.Hmm... Looks like the market value for my iron GT40s just went up...

:D

[oz98cobra]

I like the new class. I certainly don't agree with requiring the hundred or so of current CMC cars to spend money to come up to the performance of the newer cars.

Also in my opinion, the people calling the new class AI-Lite don't have a clue on the realities of the current AI rules set. The philosophies of the two classes are about 180 degrees apart...

Richard P.

Umm, if I'm not mistaken, a good portion the CMC field is now about to go spend $100s of dollars upgrading their Mustangs with Cobra parts to make sure they are at 230/300 anyway so why not make it class wide and up the power levels a little to even the playing field with newer models?

No one would be REQUIRED to upgrade, just like there are plenty of AI cars running around that are not up to spec due to cost, it would be a personal decision. IMO race classes for production based cars should evolve with the times, instead of just adding new classes to accomodate newer models.

And I agree that CMC-S is miles from AI and very few cars would be able to devolve to that new class. On the other hand, it will almost certainly dilute future AI fields somewhat as many racers with eligible cars will opt for the cheaper option. I have such a car sitting in my driveway right now - it needs little more than a completed cage and a race seat to be competive in CMC-S as it sits right now, but it would need well upwards of $10K spent to be a mid pack AI runner! Hmmm :idea:

[AI#97]

I have such a car sitting in my driveway right now - it needs little more than a completed cage and a race seat to be competive in CMC-S as it sits right now, but it would need well upwards of $10K spent to be a mid pack AI runner! Hmmm :idea:

sell said car as a CMC or -S racer and buy my car! You would have about the same money in it and have a better than mid pack AI car! :wink: And yes, I am serious. :(

[macstang]

I have a Cobra intake for sale soon. Its on the maroon car and I got an aftermarket intake. Wait, I can put that on the CMC 44, but it already makes the numbers-must be illegal.

I also have GT40P heads that I assume will not be class legal for sale.

I also have a 70mm MAF from a 94, and a whole bunch of left over stuff from the most recent CMC 44 build.

[CMC17]

Let me get this straight, there was bitching because if a Mustang made the numbers, he was called a cheater... Now, the rules allow for production parts that fix the afore mentioned problem and bow to behold, "Bitching"

WTF!?!

Boudy

No quite. If those mustangs that are making the "numbers" aren't using the new approved list of parts, they are still illegal.

[TEXAST1]

It looks like the Bitchin' Black Camaro will have a place to race with NASA pretty much as it sits now. Will probably have to take the interior out is about all.

Where are the proposed rules posted?

[TEXAST1]

[/quote] No one would be REQUIRED to upgrade, just like there are plenty of AI cars running around that are not up to spec due to cost, it would be a personal decision. IMO race classes for production based cars should evolve with the times, instead of just adding new classes to accomodate newer models.

And I agree that CMC-S is miles from AI and very few cars would be able to devolve to that new class. On the other hand, it will almost certainly dilute future AI fields somewhat as many racers with eligible cars will opt for the cheaper option. I have such a car sitting in my driveway right now - it needs little more than a completed cage and a race seat to be competive in CMC-S as it sits right now, but it would need well upwards of $10K spent to be a mid pack AI runner! Hmmm :idea:[/quote]

Yea! What Daron said except for Camaro.

[GlennCMC70]

Kevin, get on my schedule quick. looks like we have 2 CMC cars to build and a CMC-S car in the works. if you want that car fast(er), let me get ahold of it for a weekend.

[TEXAST1]

I would like to bring bitch down for October at the MSR-H race. When do you want it and when will the new rules be published?

[mitchntx]

By all means, get on Glenn's schedule.

He has 2 cars and 2 additional cages to install and a wiring job.

FWIW ... WMC is closed till November

[oz98cobra]

The only reason I would buy your car is to buy it for $1000 till you are past your current domestic situation and then sell it back to you for $1001 ;) You need it to race next year!



I have such a car sitting in my driveway right now - it needs little more than a completed cage and a race seat to be competive in CMC-S as it sits right now, but it would need well upwards of $10K spent to be a mid pack AI runner! Hmmm :idea:

sell said car as a CMC or -S racer and buy my car! You would have about the same money in it and have a better than mid pack AI car! :wink: And yes, I am serious. :(

[TEXAST1]

Where are D'a Rules? :?:

[Waco Racer]

http://camaromustangchallenge.com/cmcbb/viewtopic.php?t=2023

This was released at the Championship races this past weekend.
The details are not in stone yet as we are working on a few adjustments,but what is in stone is there will be a new group/class within CMC for 2007.

The entire purpose is to give those pony cars that were previously not allowed into CMC a place to run that does not involve the level of cost and preparation/fabrication that AI does. We are in no way trying to encroach on AI and there is still a huge difference between the two.

Starting next year, we'll have a new group within CMC: CMC-S. We will maintain separate points for this new group, but it will run with the existing CMC group. There will be one rule book for CMC and CMC-S. All of the current rules will apply to the new CMC-S cars, with the following exceptions:

We're targetting a Hp/Tq baseline of 280/300 with weight of 3200lbs, with some wiggle room above that running added weight (similar to current). This provides a weight/power ratio exactly half way between current CMC and current AI. Exact weights for each of the platforms will be announced later, they might not all be the same, and might not be exactly 3200. At the end of the day though, CMC-S cars will have more power and better weight/power ratios than current CMC rules allow.

Allowed motors (and therefore cars): LS1, 05+ Mustang GT 3 valve 4.6, 03-04 Mach1 DOHC 4.6, 96-01 Cobra (no Cobra R) normally aspirated DOHC 4.6.

Maximum front rotor diameter of 13" (stock on Cobras, simple upgrade on F-cars), factory style dual piston calipers up to 44.5mm (this includes all current as well as 05+ 43mm for Fords), we will also allow the 40mm C5 calipers on CMC-S F-cars as an upgrade to keep up with the bench racers.

Choice of current 255/50R16 or 255/40R17. This 17" tire has the same section width, and same static loaded radius as our current tire

With this, the only cars of significant manufactured volumes not included are the 93-95 Cobras. These 93-95 Cobras, rated at 235-240Hp/285Tq, will be allowed in CMC as normal CMC cars. Folks running these motors will be allowed restrictors if necessary to get under 230. If nothing else this provides a legal alternative intake,cam,TB, etc. for 5.0 cars to make up some power. With this, every Camaro, Firebird, and Mustang has a place to run, and should proove to result in an increase of cars on the track. There are only a handful of models left out, and these were not made in big enough numbers to worry about: the Cobra Rs and the '97 35th Anniversary F-Bodies.

There are of course a lot of smaller details that need to be worked out, and we'll do our best to cover everything over the next few months. Given that there is a lot of "new" and in this world of amateur racing there hasnt been a lot of track testing, we expect to have to massage a few things here and there as we learn.

At this point there are bound to be a lot more questions than answers, but here are a few we've already come up with:

Are F-body SS and WS6 cars legal? - Sort of, by making them not be an SS. Simply remove/disable SS components (factory ram air hood and ram air compatible intake) then they're no longer an SS, and therefore legal.

I have a current 01 Mustang that I run in CMC with a restrictor to get down to 230hp, but I want to remove the restrictor and run CMC-S...can I? Yes, any of the existing allowed cars can choose to run CMC-S but there are no incremental modifications allowed for them to make up the power difference.

I just blew up my LT1. Can I install an LS1 in it and run CMC-S? - Yes, you can update older cars with newer motors: LS1 into an LT1, 4.6DOHC into a 4.6SOHC etc. Ford 4.6 3valve cannot be installed in anything other than an 05+, similar to how LT1s arent allowed in 3rd gens.

Are other LT-x and LS-x derivatives such as the LT-4, LS-6 etc allowed? NO

I found this trick XXXX part off an 06 Mustang. Can I run it in my CMC 95GT? No. 05+ Mustangs will be treated like 4th gen F-bodies with regards to update/backdate rules.

Since you're going to allow CMC-S F bodies to run Vette brakes, can I run those Vette calipers in my CMC 4th gen? Maybe. As we do every year, we'll be revisiting the CMC rulebook this fall and addressing concerns, clarifications, suggestions. We know a lot of 4th gen drivers have caliper spread issues, and we'll revisit that again.

Much more to come.
Shoot me or Al Fernandez emails for questions.
Thanks,
Tony Guaglione

Hey, Kevin, need a driver?

[GlennCMC70]

Kevin, take the CMC rules and only make changes to them w/ what Clifton posted.
i think it can run @ Houston as is and we could work on it some in the off season.

[AI#97]

Kevin, take the CMC rules and only make changes to them w/ what Clifton posted.
i think it can run @ Houston as is and we could work on it some in the off season.

Bring it to Houston and Run AI!!! :P

[TEXAST1]

Glennnnn,

What do I need to do to put the C5 rotors and Brakes on the front of Bitchin' :?:

[GlennCMC70]

Call LG's, they make a bracket and its nice. dont let them talk you into thinking you need C5 calipers, you dont. they will work w/ them, but the brakets were designed to use the stock F-body stuff. just get the brackets. pick up a set of rotors from O'Rylies for a c5 and you will be good. FYI - you have to use 17" wheels w/ these and there are fitment issues w/ some wheels. i had the best luck w/ the '00-02 SS 10 spoke wheels and the ZR1 replicas from the '98-99 SS's.

if LG's will not get you set up, i know a couple other vendors for this.
call me if you have issues.

[TEXAST1]

I ASSume we will have to run Toyos?

Glenn, I still run stock C5 brakes on my C5. I have plenty of spare rotors, calipers and pads.

I think I can cobble a set of 17's with the right offsets from my stash as well. I just don't have any 17" tires that small. :roll:

[mitchntx]

Glennnnn,

What do I need to do to put the C5 rotors and Brakes on the front of Bitchin' :?:

I'm not his majesty, but ...

I have a Bishop bracket sitting on the shelf, along with all the necessary hardware, including rotors. Just no calipers

[TEXAST1]

I sent you a PM but:

How much? :?: :?:

[GlennCMC70]

they are not for sale. i may need them for myself. :P

[mitchntx]

Money talks, bubba.

Kevin, mail sent

[Waco Racer]

they are not for sale. i may need them for myself. :P

Are they going to allow the current CMC 4th gens to upgrade the brakes or are you going to swap in an LS1? Can the 4th gen get to 3200lbs?

[AI#97]

they are not for sale. i may need them for myself. :P

Are they going to allow the current CMC 4th gens to upgrade the brakes or are you going to swap in an LS1? Can the 4th gen get to 3200lbs?

is that 3200 race ready or without driver?

Personally, I like the idea of a using stock parts in an F-body that can make the power and keep the costs down. I guess I need to try driving one! :wink: I seem to remember a statement from Burch after driving boudy's car at TWS...."if a good mustang driver ever gets into an F-body....watch out!".... :lol:

[GlennCMC70]

they are not for sale. i may need them for myself. :P

Are they going to allow the current CMC 4th gens to upgrade the brakes or are you going to swap in an LS1? Can the 4th gen get to 3200lbs?

yes, i can install 13" brakes and pull the restrictor plate and be 100% legal.
if i run any CMC-S races it will be in full CMC trim less the restrictor plate. no need for the 13" brakes. there is more stopping power than the tire can take w/ what i have.

3200??? lets just say my car was 3227 post race w/ driver after the sunday 40 minute race.

if i build a CMC-S car, it will have the LS1 motor, no question. but i hear rumor the LS1 cars will have to come in @ 3300 minimum.


guys, the one thing you need to remember is CMC-S will w/in a few years be part of CMC. they are creating this class to give them a place to race till they figure out how to get them down to CMC lap times. there is no way they will get an LS1 down to 230hp/300tq. and if they did and let them run @ 3200 it would still be a class ringer. the LS1 motor is 100+ lbs lighter than the LT1. this is huge for getting your front / rear %'s better.

so my point is dont build a car for this or change your car for this new class to think your getting away from CMC. it will all be one class sooner or later. my my guess id the CMC cars will slowly be bumped to 250/320 over a few years (10hp/tq per year). this would really only require a cam change and a small cam @ that. just speculation on my part though.

can a 4th gen get to 3200lbs????? they can @ LAW Motorsports!
there was no other 4th gen @ Nationals w/in 50 lbs of my car. most were in the 3350-3400 range @ the start of the 40 minute race. i was under 3300 easily w/ a completely full tank. there is about 30 more lbs i could remove if i wanted plus running the fuel load lower.

[jeffburch]

I think CMC-S is the future.
I think CMC currently will remain unchanged, forever.
When -S car numbers eclipse CMC #'s, CMC will become formally know as CMC-V.
Camaro-Mustange Challenge- Vintage

jb

[mitchntx]

Jeff, only time will tell.

For CMC, there are just too many years worth of cars that fit into that category. 82-97 F-cars and 79-04 Mustang/Capri is a huge window of eleigible cars.

CMC-S, on the other hand, is 93-02 F-Cars and a few other 3rd gens that came with 350s I would imagine and some mixture of Mustangs that only Edsel himself can keep up with.

Having such a limited model base and the fact that these cars are still quite pricey will keep the car count from over-taking CMC for a while.

[jeffburch]

I know a guy in OKC who just bought an '00 6sp. with a new motor and clean title for 6K.
I wonder if it being pewter had anything to do with the price?

jb

[NASA13]

I know a guy in OKC who just bought an '00 6sp. with a new motor and clean title for 6K.
I wonder if it being pewter had anything to do with the price?

jb

WOW
I would drive a pink LS1 for 6k
ok I would drive it to the paint shop but still. That is cheap.

[mitchntx]

Definitely not the norm ...