Camaro u joint caps/clips

[Pranav]

On my rear end, I had a clip walk off causing a u-joint cap to pop out on me during R2 (ran fine on dyno, practice, and qual prior). I made a boneheaded move when replacing the caps that night and caused some more damage, but that's on me (didn't know how the clips work, now I do).

What I'm curious about is if there is a better style of clip used to retain a 1.125" U joint cap than the dinky, soft 3/4 copper clips that they come with:

http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/PRE0/235/07127.oap?year=1996&make=Chevrolet&model=Camaro&vi=1035931&ck=Search_universal+joint_07127_1035931_779&keyword=universal+joint&pt=07127&ppt=C0362

It was way too easy for me to push them on and way to easy to deform them into being loose, and that is all that keeps a u joint cap in place.

I'm thinking a steel snap ring that requires snap ring pliers, maybe backed up with a little safety wire, something like this:
http://www.toolsource.com/prod_medium/71041.jpg

I can get a snap ring from a HW supplier, but looking to see if there is a solution dedicated/tested to U-joint purposes out there, or a particular brand of U joint that comes with as such?

Also wondering if there is a different style of U joint strap out there that mechanically retains the U joint cap on the outside so I'm not just relying off the clips on the inside. This is what I run on the car now (bought new ones this weekend):

http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/PRE0/53010/01464.oap?year=1996&make=Chevrolet&model=Camaro&vi=1035931&ck=Search_u+joint+strap_1035931_779&keyword=u+joint+strap

The straps don't really bother me, just the super soft clips...

[marshall_mosty]

Pranav,
I'm never heard of the clips themselves failing.

However, if you really want belt and suspenders, you would have room to drill thru oposing walls on both the driveshaft and yolk side and then run some safety wire thru the holes. That would retain the cap.

[AI#97]

Smiley's has billet aluminum caps and maybe even steel. Beefy for 600+hp. If you break those, you are cursed dude.

[dtanker65]

Maybe some silicone? :rolleyes: I agree with Marshall about the clips being reliable, they are copper clad steel. If the u-joint is hard to get assembled, it is often because one of the needles has fallen over in the cap (ask me how I know). I don't like using the hydraulic press to assemble them, there is way too much force and no feed back, it works but the c-clamp style tool gives better feel. O Reillys or Autozone loans the right tool. If the u-joint doesn't feel right after assembly, tear it down and do it again. I forgot to ask if you are using factory manuals? I bought the factory shop manual and electrical manual for my car off of ebay. Best money I ever spent.

[Pranav]

Ordered another used driveshaft, swapped the U joints and installed it along with a fresh torque arm (thanks Glenn for loaning me yours). Found a 1.125" full circle retaining clip and installed it on those two rear caps that are strapped to the yoke, the other 6 got the regular half-circle clips as they are pressed in anyways.

[Pranav]

Couldnt find a track day, so I tagged along with Jander and a friend to the dyno and glad I did.

Above 70mph (3500rpms in 4th) the operator said he could feel vibration.

Not too confident in the u joint swap I did on this new shaft so I will take it to a shop here that does aluminum driveshaft balancing and see what they find.

Really hoping I didn't bend the output shaft in the trans...

[Pranav]

Got a runout gauge and did some measurements. As I strongly suspected, the one part of the u joint installation in which I had the least amount of confidence appears to be the main culprit. When pressing the u-joint caps into the front slip yoke of the drive shaft a couple weeks ago, I barely had room to get the clips in and was not very confident about it; looking at them now I can visibly see one side's cap stick out a tiny bit further than the other, measured difference being just under 0.020" out. There is an issue, either the yoke is bent or I need to try again on the u joint.

Second to that I did the same measurements on the u joint caps where they are strapped to the yoke on the rear end; 0.01ish out. The full circle snap rings I put on were each about 0.01" thinner than the half clips that came with the u joint, (the ones I was so worried about losing again). I wouldn't doubt that the thinner clips would contribute to the rear runout, although unsure how much of it is the front yoke runout "pushing" the entire assembly up away from the guage indicator, as the low/high caps match front to rear.

Finally I took the gauge and put it on the slip yoke seal surface where it goes into the trans to see if I'm getting runout in the trans output shaft (not the most accurate way to check, but only way without blowing apart the trans). Roughly 0.004-5 runout, somewhat but not fully coincides with the u joint cap low/highs at both ends of the driveshaft. I'll retest with the driveshaft out and a spare/loose yoke slipped in, as I need the shaft in car to be able to move it tomorrow...

With the glaring issues with u joint caps, I will have Houston Driveline redo/recheck them and get the driveshaft balanced. This was the "smoking gun" for me to just go ahead and get this done to rule things out, as the driveshaft originally came with plastic-injected joints:
http://www.federalmogulmp.com/en-US/Technical/Documents/Vibration%20After%20Universal%20Joint%20Replacemen t.pdf

If there is any vibration left after getting the driveshaft/joints sorted out, I will deal with the t56 tailshaft bushing and potential bent output shaft ordeal after TWS.

[Al Fernandez]

I have a spare driveshaft if you need it. Just in case you dont get this one sorted out. Its steel, but it'll work.

[Pranav]

Thanks Al! I may ask you to throw it in the trailer for TWS.

Should definitely know what I have on Monday, if it's bad I may come by right away to pick it up.

I think I still have the original steel on hand, not sure...

[marshall_mosty]

Pranav,
Your snap rings aren't even there anymore... This is about 5 minutes of track time before you jettison the caps again. You need to pull the driveshaft back out and press the caps back on. Push them over further to one side, get that clip seated, and then turn it over and tap everything back the other direction to seat the other clip. A few swift smacks with a 2lb deadblow should set the final clip.

We wouldn't want the caps to come lose on the front straight and fly into the crowd and kill any babies, especially TWS... :)
(lets see who gets that "old" joke)...

[Hood]

I believe he has the internal snap rings.
You really can't measure the run out at the caps though. There is enough play in the slip yoke that measuring on the car will be inconsistent anyway and if you are only seeing a couple tenths then my bet is that it isn't at the end of the shaft. You should be measuring near the center of the driveshaft to check for run out. Also check the run out on the rear wheels while mounted on the car. Are they balanced properly as well? Check for flat spots on the tires too.

[Pranav]

Pranav,
Your snap rings aren't even there anymore... This is about 5 minutes of track time before you jettison the caps again. You need to pull the driveshaft back out and press the caps back on. Push them over further to one side, get that clip seated, and then turn it over and tap everything back the other direction to seat the other clip. A few swift smacks with a 2lb deadblow should set the final clip.

We wouldn't want the caps to come lose on the front straight and fly into the crowd and kill any babies, especially TWS... :)
(lets see who gets that "old" joke)...

As Gary said, the snap rings are internal, and all 8 of them are in there. The caps are pressed in as far as they can go...

[Pranav]

I believe he has the internal snap rings.
You really can't measure the run out at the caps though. There is enough play in the slip yoke that measuring on the car will be inconsistent anyway and if you are only seeing a couple tenths then my bet is that it isn't at the end of the shaft. You should be measuring near the center of the driveshaft to check for run out. Also check the run out on the rear wheels while mounted on the car. Are they balanced properly as well? Check for flat spots on the tires too.

I had my crappy practice tires on, I can try rotate them, I am considering going back to the dyno to recheck after I get the driveshaft sorted out Monday.

All I can say is I did pull and reset each of the three different measurement points and got repeatable results.

I did not get into checking runout on the shaft body itself, I'll get in there and measure that before I pull it, thanks for the tip! :)

[AI#97]

Pranav,
Your snap rings aren't even there anymore... This is about 5 minutes of track time before you jettison the caps again. You need to pull the driveshaft back out and press the caps back on. Push them over further to one side, get that clip seated, and then turn it over and tap everything back the other direction to seat the other clip. A few swift smacks with a 2lb deadblow should set the final clip.

We wouldn't want the caps to come lose on the front straight and fly into the crowd and kill any babies, especially TWS... :)
(lets see who gets that "old" joke)...

Not a joke....considering I have hit parts that fell off of your car! Lol!!!

[marshall_mosty]

Not a joke....considering I have hit parts that fell off of your car! Lol!!!

Matt,
To my knowledge, the only part I have lost off my car in 10 years of racingwas half an exhaust at TWS last September and it was never recovered.

[Pranav]

Checked runout at the middle and ends of the shaft, yeah it was bad if not worse than what I was measuring at the u joint caps. Once I had the driveshaft out, I checked runout on both the output shaft and the rear end yoke and was getting minimal runout that was within bounds of me wiggling each part.

I'll ask the shop tomorrow to throw the shaft as-is on the balancer before servicing it to confirm its just the shaft. Not ruling out potential trans tailhousing bushing and output shaft issues just yet, but feel confident the whole issue was tied to misalignment of the new u joints.

[AI#97]

Matt,
To my knowledge, the only part I have lost off my car in 10 years of racingwas half an exhaust at TWS last September and it was never recovered.. Same thing at cresson 2006 . cheesed my splitter... Believe it was in the braking zone into rattlesnake. Wasn't half the exhaust but large enough to chunk the leading edge. Just busting your chops.

[Hood]

As Gary said, the snap rings are internal, and all 8 of them are in there. The caps are pressed in as far as they can go...
Ummm...I see a problem. The caps cannot be pressed in so that they bottom out. They need to be backed out against the snap rings or you will have an early failure. To do this, set the yoke on an open vise so that the ears are supported and, using a soft face deadblow hammer strike the opposite flange to seat the bottom cap into the snap ring. Flip it over and repeat. Do the same for the other two caps. The yoke should have absolutely no resistance when moving it back and forth.

[Pranav]

Yeah, if I backed out the two on the transmission yoke, the clips wouldn't go in at all. Something definitely wasn't right, and then with the vibration I threw in the towel.

Houston drive train confirmed it all wasn't right and re-did them with good quality Spicer joints before doing a balance job. Told me to return the Chinese precision/federal crap and get my money back. They also told me to stick with the clips that came with the Spicer joints as the two full circle snap rings I used on the rear were too thin and probably adding to the misalignment...

[marshall_mosty]

Glad you got it resolved. I had a custom driveshaft made a few years back when I did my wheelbase shift and it's been money well spent since they used real nice U-joints going back together.

[Pranav]

Still have an intermittent vibration in 4th gear. In Turn 1 I can feel it as soon as I downshift from 5th to 4th. Heading in to turn 7 it seems fine shifting from 3rd to 4th but as I accelerate up and in to T7 I could feel it.

On the front straight I think it was fine when going from 3rd to 4th as I accelerated towards 5th, which is weird. Drained the trans fluid into a clean pan, no big fragments or anything out of place. There was also a small amount of ATF dripping from the seal, nothing catastrophic, but unusual.


Going to pull the trans, get the tailshaft housing off and check/replace the output shaft bushing and see if that helps for Hallet.

What else could it be? Hoping I didn't bend the output shaft but that wouldn't that become apparent all the time above a certain speed, as not evidenced by it being fine in 3rd/5th at the same speeds?

Recall that at MSR cresson I had the driveshaft seperate from the rear and bang around, which I believe to have caused this...

[BryanL]

Sorry you are still having a vibration. If you don't find anything consider having someone else drive the car to verify. I'm guessing the vibration must be pretty noticeable if it's in Turn 1 on the 5-4 downshift. My whole car feels like it might explode from the end of the straight till the time you get it braked and back on the gas.

[Pranav]

Yeah, mine was doing that in turn 1, but only when I downshift; everything I've got (play in yoke, vibes on decel in specific gear, seal leak) is symptomatic of a worn tailshaft bushing (which likely happened when the old driveshaft got flung around at cresson). $10 part and an afternoon of work, I'll just do it.

[Pranav]

Pulled the trans out of the car and replaced the tailshaft bushing. The yoke had some play with the old bushing, not so sure if it was bad. I did replace the trans mount as it had a ton of flex in it compared to a new one.

I also swapped the pressure plate before putting it back in, clutch is nice and smooth now, I think I tweaked it when pulling the old motor out of the car and not loosening the bolts in sequence.

For future reference, anyone that wants to do a t56 output shaft bushing:

1. Buy TWO timken/national 5200 seal/bushing sets. You will screw the first bushing up

2. Press or carefully hammer the old bushing out and the new bushing in

3. Use a 3-stone brake cylinder honing tool to open the bushing up just enough to push the yoke in

4. When reinstalling the tailshaft housing, you'll need to wiggle reverse fork slightly to get it all to line up

5. I took my tailshaft off with the transmission out of the car and sitting input shaft down on a furniture dolly with blocks of wood. I think this is the safest way although I've heard you can do this in car. I took mine out because I wanted to swap out the pressure plate.

[Pranav]

Same problem happened again at TWS weekend. Within seconds of the green flag one of my diff-side u joint caps ejected from the yoke, presumably because the clip popped out again. The straps were still on and tight, and one of the two caps was still strapped in place.

Fortunately I had a spare shaft and straps so I threw it on and did plenty fine for the next race, no vibrations either.

The yoke got chewed up pretty good and needs to be replaced. Given that this is the second u joint clip/cap ejection I've had in 2 years, I'm going to order up this Yoke in lieu of an OE GM one. If you compare the two you will see the Yukon yoke has a very pronounced "seat" to capture the u joint cap clips, vs the OE GM one that has nothing:

https://www.yukongear.com/productdetails.aspx?ProdID=976

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1993-CAMARO-REAR-AXLE-YOKE-413973-/321854440087?hash=item4af0050297:g:qMgAAOSwqv9V6gE 7&vxp=mtr

Hopefully that should prevent the same problem happening again. The only solution I came up with last time was to go from china made parts store u joints to beefy non greasable spicer u joints, but I think this yoke should seal the deal.

[Sook]

Gotta get on that heel-toe game homes! Cheaper and will last longer.

- Josh

[Pranav]

Picked up another driveshaft from a buddy on my way out from college station. Putting in new U joints and having it checked/balanced and will test fit it against this yoke before installing it all:

https://www.yukongear.com/productdetails.aspx?ProdID=1097

It apparently this style yoke uses a 99-up 7.625 pinion seal, a "triple lip design". I actually haven't had any seal issues in the past, but this is an upgrade over the older "8610" seal most of us have been running.

[Pranav]

I ended up installing that yoke, the grooves are great for capturing the clips and I clocked them to be pointed towards them. The newer style seal is entirely optional; just stuck with the seal that is on my rear end as it wasn't leaking at all.

FYI for anyone rebuilding their 10 bolt, get this yoke!

https://www.yukongear.com/productdetails.aspx?ProdID=1097