Crime and Punishment - The Double Yellow

[Fbody383]

TWS R4

I owe Glenn an apology; I have always found him to be fair and equal in his role as Director of the group. You may disagree about a single specific incident, but feel free to step up and do the job.

When we came off after R4, I already suspected that I had blown a double-yellow in T2 by passing Jay between T2 and T3; I did not see that flag. I did see the one in T4 and suspected immediately there had likely been one in T2. I was waiting for the green we never got to point Jay (but not Michael) by.

When I spoke to Glenn and he outlined potential consequences I reacted poorly, in my mind, and regretted it as soon as I said it.

My video CLEARLY shows the waving double-yellow in T2 and the standing double in T4, as well as Jay trying to get my attention, which at the time I took to be a car issue.

I fully support clear, concise rules and the public posting of penalty actions for every driver in AI/SI/CMC.

I'll post the video soon, the consequences are what they are, and I'll be bringing some semi-fast orange to Hallett.

Great weekend of racing.

[GlennCMC70]

David - nothing you said or did indicated you were on the defensive. No need to apologize. In fact, I owe most of you one as I was a bit frantic making sure I talked to each of you before you left. I needed to get all sides of the story, and was worried that wouldn't happen. Its possible I came across a bit short and dismissive. I hope you all understand.

For the most part, everyone admitted before confronted that they had done it. No one denied the accusations. It was refreshing to be around a group of people so willing to admit fault. It seems like you guys never disappoint. I walked away being proud of how you acted when confronted with an error. Round of applause.

[MikeP99Z]

Sorry I caused the double yellow guys. Hopefully no cars were damaged with my debris.

[Fbody383]

Sorry I caused the double yellow guys. Hopefully no cars were damaged with my debris. Was the double yellow the right call? What would/should have happened if you dropped that on lap 2?

Don't be this guy:


https://vimeo.com/126203809

[Storm Trooper]

Was the double yellow the right call? What would/should have happened if you dropped that on lap 2?
Why did they not do a full course black remove the debris and then start over again?

[Pranav]

With two of our 4 races ending early due to flags, and having power/fueling issues with the car, I'm gonna try go back for the Open track day on may 22nd. I'm determined to get below the 2:00 mark and end TWS on a high note; was frustrated (at my driving, the car, and stuff out of my control) over how this weekend went.

[mach1]

Why did they not do a full course black remove the debris and then start over again?

I thought they were doing that with the pace car keeping everyone off of the straight, then a corner worked held up a "1", then the pace car went off track, then I could sort of make out a waiving flag, and I saw some of AI take off, I thought it was a restart, hence my dumb ass decision to take off in R4 and get DQ'd, good game...

[Alien]

I thought they were doing that with the pace car keeping everyone off of the straight, then a corner worked held up a "1", then the pace car went off track, then I could sort of make out a waiving flag, and I saw some of AI take off, I thought it was a restart, hence my dumb ass decision to take off in R4 and get DQ'd, good game...

I wasn't aware of the DQ, Tyler. Figured if anything, people would just get repositioned. From what I saw (yeah, way at the back) was a waving flag that wasn't yellow. I didn't see a yellow and checker, which is what'd I'd have expected if the intent was, no passing, race over. Watching this exact situation in pro level racing, , heck F1 a few weeks ago, it's understood and communicated thru radio, that pace car is coming in, yeah, you're getting the green, but no passing. Since flags are OUR only communication, if that was the intent it was poorly communicated. I get that it's the gentleman thing to do, and stay in line to the finish, but our thoughts are a few seconds behind our reactions. Hard for me to see that as a dumb ass decision. Pace car should have just stayed out, or they should have thrown the checker and yellow. I'd appeal that one.

[Storm Trooper]

I'm gonna try go back for the Open track day on may 22nd. I'm determined to get below the 2:00 mark and end TWS on a high note; was frustrated (at my driving, the car, and stuff out of my control) over how this weekend went.
Let me know I would like to go also.

[Pranav]

Go get registered, I registered without paying. Hard to tell if the track or SCCA is running it but i signed up under AS (ASedan)

[MikeS]

I also blew the double yellow one or more times and was penalized with a DQ and have to sit out the next race. A fair punishment for a bad lapse in attention. Sorry to anyone I passed. Wasn't a good way to end the weekend.

[nasa-rm]

Was the double yellow the right call? What would/should have happened if you dropped that on lap 2?

Don't be this guy:


https://vimeo.com/126203809

Dave - Can you send me a copy of this video clip? This is PERFECT for comp school.


I'll talk to the RDs for Hallett to bring this up in the drivers meeting. If you see someone in front of you with their hand up waving like that, it's not a point by. It means check up, something is going on ahead that you can't or didn't see. A point is definitely a point, not a hand up wave.

In the Cyclone race on Sunday, I did the same hand motion going into T4 when I saw the double yellow and was passed by two cars. Did it as T6 and was then PUSHED down the back straight by another car while being passed by two more. We (meaning experienced racers and RDs) have failed and not passed this important hand signal onto newer racers.

[AI#97]

I thought they were doing that with the pace car keeping everyone off of the straight, then a corner worked held up a "1", then the pace car went off track, then I could sort of make out a waiving flag, and I saw some of AI take off, I thought it was a restart, hence my dumb ass decision to take off in R4 and get DQ'd, good game...

so you passed someone between 13 and checkers....? If so, that was a restart. I don't recall a yellow being displayed with the checker and Misty says she didn't see one either. When I saw the checker after will pulled off, that is a race to the line. It is my understanding Will was miffed it finished that way as it SHOULD have been a yellow/checker and we should have finished behind him in the trike. no pace car and a checker flag is a race to checker. Now, should we stay in line as gentlemen, sure.....but it isn't required.

Anyone have video of the S/F flag stand with the checker? I could be wrong about what flag was shown but I saw checker and took off....sorry if that confused folks.

[dtanker65]

I can only comment on what I saw in my race, but it seemed there were some very confusing things going on with flags in R4 when the pace car came out. I was the third car behind the pace car, Tyler passed me just as we came on a flag station which was not displaying any flags. When Tyler went by me, (right at the flag station), the flag man raised double yellow from behind the wall of the station. Tyler saw the flags and the pace car at the same time. Once the double yellow was displayed he waved me back in front of him. When Tyler passed me there were no flags at all at the station and the pace car was not visible to him because it was around the next turn. I have not checked the rule book, but with the pace car on course, shouldn't all manned flag stations display double yellow? I don't think there were any flags displayed at the last station before the front straight because I was ready for a green flag restart when we got checkers. I will check the video.

[edrock96GT]

...Anyone have video of the S/F flag stand with the checker? I could be wrong about what flag was shown but I saw checker and took off....sorry if that confused folks.

It was just a checkered flag, I checked my unedited video. I think we all just kinda said "screw it" at that point.

[AI#97]

I can only comment on what I saw in my race, but it seemed there were some very confusing things going on with flags in R4 when the pace car came out. I was the third car behind the pace car, Tyler passed me just as we came on a flag station which was not displaying any flags. When Tyler went by me, (right at the flag station), the flag man raised double yellow from behind the wall of the station. Tyler saw the flags and the pace car at the same time. Once the double yellow was displayed he waved me back in front of him. When Tyler passed me there were no flags at all at the station and the pace car was not visible to him because it was around the next turn. I have not checked the rule book, but with the pace car on course, shouldn't all manned flag stations display double yellow? I don't think there were any flags displayed at the last station before the front straight because I was ready for a green flag restart when we got checkers. I will check the video.

considering the size of the field would likely extend back past T13 Corner station, no flag there would indicate a green on the straight....

By your account, Tyler was good to go....and sadly, you would be at fault "taking back" the pass while under yellow....ask me how I know that rule!

seems like flagging was a cluster. Difficult to hold racers accountable when the flags don't follow the rules. Imperfect world I guess. Just sad that it will effect Tyler for a tire race at the next event.

[dtanker65]

The next flag station had no flag, so "taking back" position was under green as I understand, also if a car pulls over and stops under yellow does the entire field stop behind it too? I was checking the CCR at the time, but I dropped the book and couldn't reach it without loosening my shoulder straps. I am glad nobody got hurt over the weekend, those were the largest fields I have ever seen. I think the drivers and safety professionals were all doing their absolute best, although I am afraid to try to get into the head of a SM driver :-)

[GlennCMC70]

Chris read the rule to me involving re-starts from a double yellow and it read that ra ing would resume at the next station not displaying a yellow. That would be the start/finish stand. That station was waiving the checkered. Once you cross the start/finish you can rume racing, but the checkered ended the race.
I don't think single and double yellows have the same rules.

[Alien]

Wow, yeah I guess I stand corrected

20.12.1 Full Course Yellow / Pace Car Procedures
During a Full Course Yellow, in the absence of a Pace Car anywhere on course (or after the Pace Car has
pulled off the marked course), the lead car will pace (meaning steady speed) the field. Each competitor may
resume passing at any time in the absence of a Pace Car being on course providing that they are completely
past a manned flag station not displaying any yellow flag, or when the green flag has been displayed at the
restart / starting stand / location.

I didn't realize we couldn't start racing again until we were past the next 'green' flag station unless it's actually displaying a green flag in which case it's game on. So for tracks that don't have a good 'start stand', if you see a station drop the double yellow, that means you can't initiate a pass until you're past the station.

I'd love to listen into the corner worker/control radio on that one. "Corner 15, green... but not like racing green, but definitely not yellow either." Talk about ambiguous.

[mach1]

Just sad that it will effect Tyler for a tire race at the next event.
I was under the impression that my punishment was finished with the DQ for R4 at TWS, I hope it doesn't carry over to Hallett, especially with the confusing circumstances, I didn't miss and blow a yellow or double yellow. I pride myself in good communication with the corner workers, I am usually the guy telling the room to wave at the corner workers on warmup at other driving events so you can mentally register where they are, when possible I signal back to the corner workers to acknowledge I see them and the flag they are waving, etc. In R4, all signs pointed to a restart so I did a restart, I will get the video up shortly.

[michaelmosty]

Chris read the rule to me involving re-starts from a double yellow and it read that ra ing would resume at the next station not displaying a yellow. That would be the start/finish stand. That station was waiving the checkered. Once you cross the start/finish you can rume racing, but the checkered ended the race.
I don't think single and double yellows have the same rules.

Exactly, a single yellow and double yellow have completely different restart rules.
Had this been a single yellow situation at T13 and a checker at S/F, it would have been game on racing.
With a double yellow, the restart is at the green flag or at the next station not displaying a yellow. Since S/F had a checker flag the race is over since the racing wouldn't have been able to resume until After the station. Any racing prior to S/F was prohibited.

[AI#97]

Exactly, a single yellow and double yellow have completely different restart rules.
Had this been a single yellow situation at T13 and a checker at S/F, it would have been game on racing.
With a double yellow, the restart is at the green flag or at the next station not displaying a yellow. Since S/F had a checker flag the race is over since the racing wouldn't have been able to resume until After the station. Any racing prior to S/F was prohibited.

Actually, that makes no sense. I think I see what you are saying but in that instance, a yellow should have been displayed with the checker. If S/F had a green flag showing...which a checker is merely a "special" green flag, I guarantee you people would be passing LONG before start finish and that has been the history for YEARS around here. How many people should have been DQ'd for passing prior to the S/F stand on a restart.

I do know Tom got an ass chewing for screwing up the flags from control but the rule as shown in this thread seems to have a hole in it. If we drop single or double yellow flags and a pace car pulls off track and we see ANY flag other than yellow at s/f, that in other organizations is a restart which then MUST define passing rules prior to S/F. Other organizations might have also done a green restart and then checker the next lap.

Case in point. Nationals 2009 at Miller. We had yellows for Dean's wreck in the final corners and the course went double yellow. We had a checker at s/f and I was told that Rusty nearly passed me going to the checker because we had a LIVE race to the checker as there was no yellow displayed with the checker. That tells me that Rusty could have passed me between double yellows and a waving checker. Which situation is/was correct?


Regardless, it's obvious we are pretty unclear on what SHOULD have happened and what the rules are. either the rules need clarification, Tom needs briefed on what he should have done or we all need to go back and re-read the rules.....maybe all 3.

Anyway, it was fun to run in ya'lls group again one last time at TWS. Too bad it had to end under a yellow and weird circumstances.

[mach1]

Race 4 video, yellow at 10:50, corner worker signals 1 at 14:35.
https://youtu.be/Nnpvlj4n3Lk

[Supercharged111]

20.12.1 Full Course Yellow / Pace Car Procedures
During a Full Course Yellow, in the absence of a Pace Car anywhere on course (or after the Pace Car has
pulled off the marked course), the lead car will pace (meaning steady speed) the field. Each competitor may
resume passing at any time in the absence of a Pace Car being on course providing that they are completely
past a manned flag station not displaying any yellow flag, or when the green flag has been displayed at the
restart / starting stand / location. The presentation of a green flag is not a necessity to “resume” [Ref:(20.12)] a
practice or qualifying session.





So as I read that, it states that the next stand not displaying a yellow flag is your restart line, but it also talks out of both sides out of its mouth by implying that, as soon as you see a green flag anywhere, you can resume passing prior to that stand. It doesn't explicitly say either way, but that's how it reads to me.

[Suck fumes]

Race 4 video, yellow at 10:50, corner worker signals 1 at 14:35.
https://youtu.be/Nnpvlj4n3Lk


What's the little note pad for on your dash?

Also do you run racepack or AIM?

[michaelmosty]

(per the rule Dustin posted) "Each competitor may resume passing at any time in the absence of a Pace Car being on course providing that they are completely
past a manned flag station not displaying any yellow flag"

To me this is pretty clear. Even with the checker out, you are only "past" the station after the race is over.

[Supercharged111]

That part is perfectly clear, it's the "or when the green flag has been displayed at the restart / starting stand / location" directly after that seems to supercede the former part, emphasis on the word "or" is where I get hung up. Now in this particular case, there was no green flag (unless you want to count the checker as such), I'm talking in general here. This is a scenario I never really thought through before.

[mach1]

What's the little note pad for on your dash?

Also do you run racepack or AIM?

Just a note pad for reminders, racepak.
I'd buy AiM if i had to do it again.

[Supercharged111]

What's the little note pad for on your dash?

Also do you run racepack or AIM?

Duh, it's an O Reilly's notepad.

[Fbody383]

Just a note pad for reminders...
1) Win odd numbered races
2) Accept praise graciously
3) Give Camaro guys "help"

[Al Fernandez]

Exactly, a single yellow and double yellow have completely different restart rules.
Had this been a single yellow situation at T13 and a checker at S/F, it would have been game on racing.
With a double yellow, the restart is at the green flag or at the next station not displaying a yellow. Since S/F had a checker flag the race is over since the racing wouldn't have been able to resume until After the station. Any racing prior to S/F was prohibited.

Somewhat different in that they both have an exception. The baseline for both single and double yellow is the same: no passing until past the next station not displaying a yellow. For single yellow situations, the exception is that you may resume racing when past the incident. For double yellows, the exception is you can resume racing before start/finish if you see a green at start/finish. That is an actual green flag, not a "no yellow therefore its green" green. See 19.3 and 20.12.1

[dtanker65]

Somewhat different in that they both have an exception. The baseline for both single and double yellow is the same: no passing until past the next station not displaying a yellow. For single yellow situations, the exception is that you may resume racing when past the incident. For double yellows, the exception is you can resume racing before start/finish if you see a green at start/finish. That is an actual green flag, not a "no yellow therefore its green" green. See 19.3 and 20.12.1

Al,
What is the difference between green and checkers at the start/finish? Green is race on of course, but I thought checkers is race to the finish line unless accompanied by another flag. In R4 the T15 corner station showed no flags and the pace car had pulled off. The field was poised for a restart. I was expecting a green or green/white. If the race was under yellow until passing the start/finish line, wouldn't the correct flags be checker/yellow, or checker/green if the race was back on up to start/finish?

Dennis Tanker

[AI#97]

Al,
What is the difference between green and checkers at the start/finish? Green is race on of course, but I thought checkers is race to the finish line unless accompanied by another flag. In R4 the T15 corner station showed no flags and the pace car had pulled off. The field was poised for a restart. I was expecting a green or green/white. If the race was under yellow until passing the start/finish line, wouldn't the correct flags be checker/yellow, or checker/green if the race was back on up to start/finish?

Dennis Tanker

This exact Scenario is what Pissed Will off. The Yellow at T15 should not have been dropped and there should have been a yellow/checker at S/F AND the pace car should have led me to the checker.

I think Tyler's DQ should be reversed.

[GlennCMC70]

We all have to follow the displayed flags, even if they are displayed in error. Even if they are displayed in a manner not agreed upon by the event leadership. In this case they were displayed in a senario that is outlined in the CCR. There is no reversing that.

I am sure everyone wanted a single lap under green to finish this race. That could have been the intent. The reality is we got something different. It was a outlined senario in the CCR. If anything needs to be addressed, its with NASA.

[dtanker65]

We all have to follow the displayed flags, even if they are displayed in error. Even if they are displayed in a manner not agreed upon by the event leadership. In this case they were displayed in a senario that is outlined in the CCR. There is no reversing that.

I am sure everyone wanted a single lap under green to finish this race. That could have been the intent. The reality is we got something different. It was a outlined senario in the CCR. If anything needs to be addressed, its with NASA.

Glenn,

I am not wanting to beat a dead horse, but can you refer me to the paragraphs in the CCR that cover R4?

20.12.1 Each competitor may
resume passing at any time in the absence of a Pace Car being on course providing that they are completely
past a manned flag station not displaying any yellow flag, or when the green flag has been displayed at the
restart / starting stand / location.

19.3.3 Checkered flag Functions to inform the drivers that session is over. This flag is not global because, the drivers that have
not passed by this flag are driving under “Green Flag” conditions.

19.1 [I]Course Officials (Flaggers) are stationed around the course in various locations to provide communication in
order to serve two main functions. First, they communicate information to the drivers on course.

Failure to instantly evaluate any given signal and / or react to it properly and with good
judgment may result in severely undesirable consequences.

21.1 The Race Director reserves the right to make changes in rules and/or penalties to ensure fairness of all aspects
of competition. He/she will make every effort to correct problem situations to the fairness of the majority before
invoking penalties, in full or in part.

To quote a friend of mine's response to air traffic control when told to standby, "unable to stand by buddy, my chair is moving at 500 miles per hour". I guess all I am saying is that the drivers and flaggers are high speed decision makers and it is the duty of the race officials to "Monday morning quarterback" the event after the race is run. You guys are chosen for your experience and judgement.

Dennis Tanker

[mach1]

Glenn,

I am not wanting to beat a dead horse, but can you refer me to the paragraphs in the CCR that cover R4?

20.12.1 Each competitor may
resume passing at any time in the absence of a Pace Car being on course providing that they are completely
past a manned flag station not displaying any yellow flag, or when the green flag has been displayed at the
restart / starting stand / location.

19.3.3 Checkered flag Functions to inform the drivers that session is over. This flag is not global because, the drivers that have
not passed by this flag are driving under “Green Flag” conditions.

19.1 [I]Course Officials (Flaggers) are stationed around the course in various locations to provide communication in
order to serve two main functions. First, they communicate information to the drivers on course.

Failure to instantly evaluate any given signal and / or react to it properly and with good
judgment may result in severely undesirable consequences.

21.1 The Race Director reserves the right to make changes in rules and/or penalties to ensure fairness of all aspects
of competition. He/she will make every effort to correct problem situations to the fairness of the majority before
invoking penalties, in full or in part.

To quote a friend of mine's response to air traffic control when told to standby, "unable to stand by buddy, my chair is moving at 500 miles per hour". I guess all I am saying is that the drivers and flaggers are high speed decision makers and it is the duty of the race officials to "Monday morning quarterback" the event after the race is run. You guys are chosen for your experience and judgement.

Dennis Tanker

Good post Dennis, sounds like I have good reason to contest. Who do I need to talk to, Will F.?

[GlennCMC70]

This is the only rule that applies:

19.3.6 Double Yellow Flags
Categories: Command; Global.
Description: Two (2) solid motionless yellow flags, displayed at every manned flag station around the course.
Uses: NO PASSING is permitted. This is used to indicate “a full course yellow.” This means that there might
be a problem somewhere on the track. Drivers are NOT required to significantly slow their vehicles; however
they should be prepared to encounter a “local Yellow Flag” situation and/or a Pace Car (or a very slow moving
pack behind the Pace Car). The display of Double Yellow Flags does not guarantee the appearance of a Pace
Car. It is a command that NO PASSING IS ALLOWED until the Pace Car has pulled off the course (if
applicable) and the driver has passed the next manned flag station that is not displaying any Yellow Flag(s).
Reference Pace Car [Ref: (19.4.1)], [Ref: (20.11)], and [Ref : (20.12.1)

The course was double yellow to include the last flag station prior to the S/F line.
No passing is allowed until the S/F line. The flag @ the S/F line ended the race (the checkered). Because you can't pass before that point, the race ended w/ a finishing order equal to the previously recorded lap. Had it been a green and checkered, Tyler would be right. It wasn't and he wasn't.

We all know that Tyler's actions are different from the others. Take note of how many got it right vs how many got it wrong. I've always said if we error, it should be on the side of safety. Even if all those CMC cars were in error, is snookering a group of guys who may be error'ing on the side of safety the wise decision? Is the payoff worth the risk?

From this point forward, call me if you don't understand. I don't know how else to explain it. Seems pretty clear to me, but if you think I'm missing your point, again - a phone call is likely in order.
Tyler was welcome to appeal. I'm sure that window has long since closed. He can still try. That will have to go through Chris and it will go up from there.

[Al Fernandez]

What he said
It's not what we were all expecting but it is how the ccr is written.

[Fbody383]

It's not what we were all expecting but it is how the ccr is written.The positive takeaway is that nobody was hurt, no cars suffered any inadvertent, incremental damage, and everybody involved now knows those rules better than ever.

[michaelmosty]

The positive takeaway is that nobody was hurt, no cars suffered any inadvertent, incremental damage, and everybody involved now knows those rules better than ever.

Completely agree!!
I realized I probably need to freshen up on the rules a little. I was under the impression that during a full course yellow, the restart 100% would come at the start/finish line. Once I re-read the specific section I realized the restart could be at any of the flag stations. That was definitely news to me.

[mach1]

19.3.6 Double Yellow Flags
Categories: Command; Global.
Description: Two (2) solid motionless yellow flags, displayed at every manned flag station around the course.
Uses: NO PASSING is permitted. This is used to indicate “a full course yellow.” This means that there might
be a problem somewhere on the track. Drivers are NOT required to significantly slow their vehicles; however
they should be prepared to encounter a “local Yellow Flag” situation and/or a Pace Car (or a very slow moving
pack behind the Pace Car). The display of Double Yellow Flags does not guarantee the appearance of a Pace
Car. It is a command that NO PASSING IS ALLOWED until the Pace Car has pulled off the course (if
applicable) and the driver has passed the next manned flag station that is not displaying any Yellow Flag(s).
Reference Pace Car [Ref: (19.4.1)], [Ref: (20.11)], and [Ref : (20.12.1)
Pretty cut and dry except the fact that according to that rule, even with a green flag, you couldn't pass until you got to the green flag station, I'm pretty sure that is not the case.
According to 19.3.3 we are driving under green flag conditions as soon as the checker waived so I wouldn't have been breaking any rules in that case.

Considering the confusing situation I would also hope that 21.1 would have come into play and I wouldn't have been DQ'd.

[GlennCMC70]

The better way to read 19.3.3 is your required to follow the last displayed flag. Green condition is in quotes. That is the default condition unless otherwise indicated locally/globaly on track. Read the rule and understand the intent.
The more I debate this, the more I think the RD got the call right. Nothing here has cast any doubt on that call.

[GlennCMC70]

19.3.3 is also pointing out that a display of a checkered is a local condition (your race ends here) as opposed to a global condition. If the checkered was global, the race would end for all on track no matter where you are (not feasible).

So, the display of a checkered indicates the race ends here, but assumes the rest of the course is still "green". Since all flags have priority over a green, and display of something other than a green is the condition the track is under, the checkered only indicates one thing - the end of the race.

[Alien]

Pretty cut and dry except the fact that according to that rule, even with a green flag, you couldn't pass until you got to the green flag station, I'm pretty sure that is not the case.

You are correct that that is not the case. That's what the "or" is for.

20.12.1 Each competitor may resume passing at any time in the absence of a Pace Car being on course providing that they are completely
past a manned flag station not displaying any yellow flag, or when the green flag has been displayed at the
restart / starting stand / location.

Something I don't really like about the way the restart is written in the rules, you really have no idea who's in charage of the restart. The way the rule is written, the leader approaches a flag stand as sees that it has droped the double yellow. Track is green, but no passing til that station. Got it. The leader basically gets to decide when he or she get's back on the throttle. However, the leader can't know if the corner station will just throw a green and could potentially get caught out. I realize there are a million what if situations and this is just one of them.

Like it seems for a quite a few of us, we didn't know the rules as well as we thought we did, I'm one of them. I'm in no way trying to pile on, but just want to use this as a learning experience for the future. While I agree with Glenn that, given the way the rules are written, the RD made the correct call, I do find it a shame that a crystal clear alternative of keeping the pace car out or keeping the double yellow out while throwing the checker isn't the norm.

[GlennCMC70]

To add to the total confusion, I think the pace car picked up the wrong #8 too.

[mach1]

I'm in no way trying to pile on, but just want to use this as a learning experience for the future. While I agree with Glenn that, given the way the rules are written, the RD made the correct call, I do find it a shame that a crystal clear alternative of keeping the pace car out or keeping the double yellow out while throwing the checker isn't the norm.
I agree, I am not trying to drag it out, just want to make sure it is completely clear, hopefully no one is getting heated.

[Fbody383]

hopefully no one is getting heated.well you're wrong! you just want another cheater mustang advantage!
sorry, couldn't resist.

[Al Fernandez]

Its good discussion Tyler, even if you do piss Francis off. Maybe you get bonus points for that!

[mach1]

Maybe you get bonus points for that!
Good deal, looks like I could use them! It looks like the DQ will drop me from the topish of the season points list down to 8th or so. Hopefully the drops work out!

I'm assuming my punishment was only a DQ for R4 at TWS and will not carry to the next race?

[GlennCMC70]

Good deal, looks like I could use them! It looks like the DQ will drop me from the topish of the season points list down to 8th or so. Hopefully the drops work out!

I'm assuming my punishment was only a DQ for R4 at TWS and will not carry to the next race?

Correct. Only 1 driver was penalized to where the penalty carried over to the next event. Multiple passes under full course yellow.

[Fbody383]

Multiple passes under full course yellow.Pheww... and I'm guessing the 013 runs much more to the front at Hallett this year.

[mach1]

Pheww... and I'm guessing the 013 runs much more to the front at Hallett this year.

Maybe if I can keep it on the track :)

[BryanL]

This exact Scenario is what Pissed Will off. The Yellow at T15 should not have been dropped and there should have been a yellow/checker at S/F AND the pace car should have led me to the checker.

I think Tyler's DQ should be reversed.

The Double Yellow wasn't dropped? Check Tylers video at 15:09 and even I can see that the flagger is standing up displaying the double yellow.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nnpvlj4n3Lk

[rleng1]

Opps.

[AI#97]

The Double Yellow wasn't dropped? Check Tylers video at 15:09 and even I can see that the flagger is standing up displaying the double yellow.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nnpvlj4n3Lk

I'm going off of what has been told to me by someone listening to the radio calls that T13 was told to drop the yellow. S/f was also told to drop the yellow and only show checker....he was actually holding 4 different flags as we came onto the straight and pace car came off track. I'll have to watch Tyler's video to see.

[chris-CMC#35]

I will be at Hallett. Any and all are welcome to beat me about the head and shoulders if it will make you feel better. :-)

[Storm Trooper]

Here is R4 ( mostly from the back LOL ) https://vimeo.com/127899133