Watkins Glen

[MikeP99Z]

My car got loaded this morning by Winding Road Racing and is on its way to Watkins Glen.

Looks like the AI field will have 14 cars, including me, Kevin and Jack. Dr. Rob will be running in Spec Iron. There are quite a number of Texas SM guys attending also.

If you are interested in media, T&S and whatnot throughout the weekend, there are links on the east coast champ site:

https://nasachampionships.com/east-event

I hired Mr. Holdway to wrench with me (drink beer), and Cheryl is joining me also. Practice day on Thursday, Qual and qual races Fri/Sat, champ race Sunday.

I'm looking forward to a solid event, hope the dyno is accurate, and the racing good. Hope I can hang with the big boys.

MP

[marshall_mosty]

My car got loaded this morning by Winding Road Racing and is on its way to Watkins Glen.

Looks like the AI field will have 14 cars, including me, Kevin and Jack. Dr. Rob will be running in Spec Iron. There are quite a number of Texas SM guys attending also.

If you are interested in media, T&S and whatnot throughout the weekend, there are links on the east coast champ site:

https://nasachampionships.com/east-event

I hired Mr. Holdway to wrench with me (drink beer), and Cheryl is joining me also. Practice day on Thursday, Qual and qual races Fri/Sat, champ race Sunday.

I'm looking forward to a solid event, hope the dyno is accurate, and the racing good. Hope I can hang with the big boys.

MP


Go get 'em Mike!!

[Supercharged111]

Finals on Sunday? I'll be hostage on a plane Friday/Saturday.

[AllZWay]

Good luck.. Go kick butt.

[Alien]

Saw these fastest laps from yesterday...

1. AJ Hartman - 2:07.182

2. Mike Patterson - 2:08.306

3. Eric Fuehrer - 2:08.621

4. Joe Bogetich - 2:09.302

[Fbody383]

Fri morning warm up

AJ 2:08.3
Patterson 2:09.9
Lakomiak 2:10.4
Adams 2:10.4

Can't see/video not working... maybe it's only up for races???

[Fbody383]

Yikes... did not see any Patterson in the quali times...

[Al Fernandez]

Go Mike Go

[marshall_mosty]

Talked to Casey. Mike grenaded the clutch. Cheryl is running for the parts while Mike/Casey pull it apart.
Not sure if he will make the first qual race at 1:10.

[Fbody383]

At least is sounds fixable. I didn't have Cheryl's number and figured they were busy - was going to ping if they didn't show up on race timing.

Toolbreaker Racing and the BCOD still in it to win it.

[Fbody383]

Any updates?

[Fbody383]

Apparently the new clutch is working. BCOD lives!

Nice work guys.

[AI#97]

Mike got a factory clutch from a dealer so fingers crossed it holds. Hartman got a DQ from being over on the dyno. Both should carve through the field but there have been a LOT of yellows. hope there is time to make up spaces for Sunday.

[AI#97]

6 places by the bus stop! Go mike go!

[AI#97]

running strong in 5th! Helluva drive Mike!!!!

[AI#97]

4th! Whoop!

[AI#97]

damnit! double yellow. haven't seen his car come through. He was on the bumper of 3rd place...may have gone off. Mike was getting it done though!

[smitty328]

That sucks, he had the second fastest time. Him and another guy are the only two running in the 2:06s. I hope it was something easy.

[Fbody383]

He has the speed. Hopefully it's another fixable. Gonna take a strong drive from the rear...

[AI#97]

As hard as he was driving I bet it was a brake or tire issue. He was looking REALLY good!!!!

[AI#97]

Mike's text info is he is fine. He found some dirt in the bus stop and found the guard rail. car is damaged. Sounds like a pretty heavy hit so glad he is ok. hopefully some beer, a truck, some chain and redneck engineering can get him back on track for sunday but not sure how bad it is. As fast as he was flying, he may have moved that guardrail a TON!

[Suck fumes]

And They will prop send him a bill to fix the guardrail too. They charge for track damage.

[AllZWay]

Hope it isn't too bad.

[MikeP99Z]

The front end of the car is too damaged to race. It's going to be a fairly hefty body shop bill, but it is repairable. I'm fine, just pissed, frustrated, etc. More later.

[Fbody383]

I'm fine, just pissed, frustrated, etc. More later. Rule number 1 - don't scare the wife.

Most importantly - glad you're ok. You can fix the car.

[Storm Trooper]

The front end of the car is too damaged to race. It's going to be a fairly hefty body shop bill, but it is repairable. I'm fine, just pissed, frustrated, etc. More later.

We are glad your ok!!!
P.S to Cheryl (from Kisha) sending hugs

[AI#97]

The front end of the car is too damaged to race. It's going to be a fairly hefty body shop bill, but it is repairable. I'm fine, just pissed, frustrated, etc. More later.

Well, glad you are OK! that is the important thing. It was a helluva drive though!

[Al Fernandez]

Sorry Mike
I really thought it was going to be your year.

[Supercharged111]

So many people ate the Armco. Really makes me appreciate the nothing that there is for us to hit on our local tracks. On the other hand, we have no real 4th gear corners.

[BryanL]

Glad you are OK Mike and the car can be repaired. It was looking like a good run for you at Nats. Love to see some video and pics from Nats if anyone has any to share.

[MikeP99Z]

WGI Summary:

First - thanks Casey Holdway for making the journey and helping me wrench on the car and crew chief. The Winding Road guys were also awesome to have assist and provided support. Thanks Kevin Pyles for loaning me a clutch disc!

Thursday had 5 practice sessions. Some sessions were no better than a DE due to the huge volume of cars, but it was perspective on the track. I think I managed to get about 12 hot laps in. Some sessions were shortened due to incidents. I was having an extremely difficult time shifting the car which was very unusual. We changed the tranny fluid, and bled the clutch but that didn't seem to help. We put the car on the dyno in the afternoon and it pulled 346/329/328. Something wasn't right. I had just dyno'd at Alamo prior to loading the car and was at my normal 363. Was it the dyno or my car?? I had worked my times down to the 2:08s without very many laps. The car was great except the shifting. I complained to Casey that if I could shift the freakin thing that I'd drop a second off the time.

Friday morning I went out in warmup and the clutch exploded on lap two. I limped it back to the paddock and the search for a clutch began. This wasn't a simple solution, as my flywheel/clutch/pressure plate were all custom from Clutchmasters, so an off the shelf part wouldn't work. Casey called around and found a full assembly at a stealership in Albany. Cheryl jumped in the rental car and made the 7 hour round trip to get the assembly while Casey and I set off on disassembly. After walking the paddock looking for options, Kevin Pyles happened to have a spare used Spec Stage 2 disc in the GTO parts bin. We grabbed it deciding that we could use the stock flywheel and pressure plate with the Spec disc.

Cheryl got back to the track about 6pm and we started installing. After a few snags and finding a clutch alignment tool from a corvette guy (really GM, you said one was in the box...), the car was reassembled by 12:30am (thanks to Greg Smith for helping us stab the tranny, holy shit that sucked). The clutch disc had exploded sending debris into the forks, broke the pressure plate mounts, tore up the flywheel etc.

Saturday morning after 3 hours of sleep, I drove it around the paddock, and it seemed to work. I went out in warmup and ran a 2:06.5 on lap 2, and decided that things were working and the car was shifting fine, so I pulled it in. The stock pressure plate engagement was just like a stepping on a sponge for engagement, but the disc was holding the power.

Saturday afternoon was Qual Race 2. Since I didn't run Race 1, I was starting last on the grid, and would be starting last in the champ race no matter how I finished. The bummer about no Friday race was the loss of education on where/who/how my competitors performed/raced and trying to learn a few things about the track under race conditions. So, we had a standing start which went off very clean. I picked up a few positions on Lap 1 and worked myself to 5th a few laps later. Places 2-6 were stuck in a pack together while the leader walked off a bit. I figured I might have a shot at P3 in the time remaining. I had clicked off a few 2:06s and knew where some improvements were in certain places, especially the last corner - I was over slowing the car and had decided to try 4th gear instead of 3rd the next lap - as the guy in front of me had pulled me hard twice in a row out of that corner.

Going into the bus stop the guy in front of me kicked dirt onto the track. I hit it, my front end slid a bit and then the back slid (at 90-100mph). As i was sliding I had a choice to either gas it and loop the car onto the race line, or counter steer and not take out the guy behind me. I made the decision to not take out the guy behind me, but when I counter steered the car tank slapped. I recover these things 99% of the time. This was the other 1%. I ran out of talent. So, I locked it down with 2 feet in and tried to park it. The surface changed from asphalt to grass and I was along for the ride watching the guardrail inch closer and closer, saying no, no, no...boom - guardrail impact about 10-15 mph at about a 10* angle wiping the nose off the car. It was still running, so pulled it around the backside of the flag station where the rescue guys were parked, considering I was in a bad spot. I think my waving yellow last about 15 seconds. I'm fine and not physically hurt.

It's hard to put into words the emotional dejection after such things. I'm pissed, frustrated, depressed, embarrassed, crushed, etc. I hadn't wrecked the car in about 10 years, which was due to a mechanical failure. That wreck was easier to put into context at the time because I had no control over it. This time I'm left wondering if I could have changed something to prevent it. Like just tooling around at the back knowing I'd still be starting last for Sunday, or not driving as hard, or whatever - pick an option - plenty of what-ifs. I went up there to race, I needed to learn what these guys were doing if I was going to have any chance on Sunday. Just an unfortunate situation which ended the weekend. The car should be repairable. It'll go to the body shop later in October.

I'll upload the video soon (need to pare it down due to size etc), since I know all you sick bastards like to to watch such devastation and destruction. Yeah, I'm right there with ya...

Turns out that Sunday was a complete cluster with 4 green laps in 45 minutes, and the worst thing / flagging decision I've seen in 20 years of racing - that's a story for another time.

Side note - my mother flew in from Denver to watch me race (ugh, I just wasted the car with my Mom there...)

Thanks for the support,
MP

[Supercharged111]

Geez I didn't think you were that close to hauling the thing down, what a kick in the nuts. Kind shocking such a slow impact was enough to hose your alignment and whatever else (aero for sure). And yeah, that flag situation was a joke. Even the announcer forgot how to be professional and I can't blame him watching that mess unfold. I mean you're on the edge of your seat fearing for the guy who spun out, talk about a code brown for him with his side of the car facing the oncoming nutcases about to take a green.

[BryanL]

Thanks for the report. I can understand all those emotions but you don't need to worry about any of them. It's tough not too but you don't need to second guess a decision at 100 mph to drive a car off track instead of potentially taking out more. It just wasn't your day and racing can punish you like the dirt being thrown on the track. It wasn't like you were making some low percentage dive bomb in a race that didn't matter. You were still racing and learning the car, track, and competition. The knowledge you could gain passing those guys could have certainly been used to get up front on Sunday.

Man-4 green laps of racing in 45 minutes for the National event is pretty pathetic. Just too many cars on track with big speed differentials not just in lap times but where they make their speed on track.

See you in the 24 at TWS.

[JMR81]

Here is a video of the start of the championship AI race. https://youtu.be/_B_RRJE7jT4

Over all our race weekend was mostly case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time with accidents and disabled car, safety cars which we were always on the wrong side of. We struggled in the test day with over heating issues. The race's we had no luck.We felt like we would have the pace to run well up in the pack if we had a chance. Just before the final the fuel pump started acting up and it finally quit while we were loading it in the trailer. We came home with all 4 corners intact. I have to thank Jason Massey at iLLcit Motorsports for all of the hard work all season. Mike Patterson for spending some time with Jack talking about the track and traffic management. Rumor has it hat next year East coast will be at Sebring and West coast will be at Thunderhill. See you at TWS for Next last race

[michaelmosty]

Are you freaking kidding me?!?!?! No kidding a code brown moment!!!

How many got DQ'd for passing under yellow?

[BlueGoat]

Not sure if there were any DQ for passing under yellow at the start of the race. Who in their right mind made the decision to tell them to throw the green with a standing yellow at the starter stand? Tell me who would have seen and paid attention to a person holding a solid yellow flag at the starter stand when the flagger is vigorously waving a green flag in the manner he was. When you watch Jack's in car video, you can see me leaving about 60-70 feet of my new tires on that track due to someones poor judgement to have them start the race. Look at turn 1 and there is no flag at T1 station but they finally made the decision to throw a full course caution by the time we hit T3. I looked at the CCR before I posted earlier to make sure I wasn't missing anything and NO WHERE do they talk about a green/yellow flag. Below is copy paste from the CCR on split starts. I looked at my video earlier and at the time I hit my brakes it looked as if I was doing anywhere between 100-120MPH (bad shadow so it's hard to see) I will get off my soap box about this but I won't stop being pissed about it for awhile. Pissed for the poor guy left on track while this unfolded, Pissed I almost wrecked my car because I didn't see the Vette until the red Camaro moved over and Pissed cause they helped me ruin 2 new tires I can't use anymore because of flat spots. I will post my video later of the start when I can find the time to edit it to a couple seconds.

My driving weekend pretty well stunk there. The track is scary fast and I struggled with my car all weekend and tried to grow more cojones for the walls but never quite got there. We did finally change the rear springs Saturday night and the car felt great for the morning 100 car all skate practice. Just can't move anywhere in the field on 4 laps 1 lap at a time between DYellow. A late find on a cracked front rotor kept me from making it to the Saturday qual race till 2 laps into it. Still had a great time regardless. IMO NASA needs to have MANY more meetings with the NASA people as well as the track before they run a national event. I know a lot of the set backs and hold ups were due to racers themselves but there were plenty of things that could have prevented a few things.

20.8 Flagman Timed Start (split or not)
The Starter will raise a furled green flag over his / her head and open it slowly. After displaying an open green
flag for approximately five (5) seconds, the Starter will drop the green flag. The group of cars will leave the
starting line. In the case of a second group of cars (split), the flagman will repeat the process; and again for
every subsequent group.
Once the green flag has been raised, and there is a need to abort the start, the Starter will keep the flag in the
air, and slowly furl it closed, then lower it slowly with the handle held vertically. This procedure should be done
with care, as not to cause a false start

[MikeP99Z]

Video link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fv1PqI65-54

[smitty328]

Wow Mike, great run. Sorry it ended that way, but glad your ok.

[MikeP99Z]

Thanks. At least my motor sounds good at 6500 rpm in 5th...

[mach1]

Wow Mike, great run. Sorry it ended that way, but glad your ok.

Exactly, thanks for posting the video and the story.

[AI#97]

Not sure if there were any DQ for passing under yellow at the start of the race. Who in their right mind made the decision to tell them to throw the green with a standing yellow at the starter stand? /B]

Same BS happened in an AI qual race back in 2008 at mid Ohio. Aix took the green and immediately had a car off track in the second turn. Some genius throws the green for the LARGE AI field and as the first two rows are passing the corner station in the first turn they toss up a yellow. We see it and back down....then half the field passes us, even under double yellows through the next four turns. The eventual national champion even runs over David Donovan and throws himself into the outside wall. Field lines up for what probably should have been a waved off restart two by two and half the field gets DQ'd and I lose a second place finish. The eventual national champ who passed and had contact which showed me the exhaust under his car, started on the front row for the big race on Sunday and went on to win the championship. If there is one constant about a nasa nationals event is that the officiating/flagging is usually a giant shit show. Don't even get me started about AI in 2009.

[Supercharged111]

Let's not forget the Mid Ohio incident. Mike were you 2 off on the left of that white Mustang in 5th gear on lap 1 up the hill?

[MikeP99Z]

1/2 to1/4 tire width on.

[ShadowBolt]

Too many wall to hit on that track.


JJ

[BryanL]

Wow that start was terrible! Man-how mad and scared must that guy in the vette been. It was pretty much a green flag start but then you see a guy holding a yellow over to the side. It's a nat champ race so people are going to take the risk that it might have been a mistake. I mean if it was a yellow they should have been waving both flags-but then why in the world would you be waving a green flag when you have a guy stopped sideways on the straight away. They are really lucky that didn't end up bad. I mean all things considering if it was just a pair of flatspotted tires then that's about the best you could ask for throwing the green.

That's a tough spot to get sprayed with dirt for Mike. I'm like Jerry that track is all armco-wouldn't be good for a CMC race. Surprised they don't have any tires in more places in front of the armco. If Mike would have hit tires first then I bet he could have raced.
I used to really want to go to a nats. But the more I see with how they put so many groups on track, the lack of quality track time, the amount of incidents because people are pushing so hard, and then the haul the less interested I become. Sounds like an interesting bit of info. to know how many laps were turned and how many were green flag throughout all the race groups. At least all of this gets me interested in looking at my car for TWS.

[Cody Powell]

I have been to 3 or 4 different nationals at 2 tracks and they have gotten progressively worse, hardly any track time and the rules haven't been enforced. The only reason to go anymore is to run a bucket list track (Laguna Seca)

[mach1]

I have been to 3 or 4 different nationals at 2 tracks and they have gotten progressively worse, hardly any track time and the rules haven't been enforced. The only reason to go anymore is to run a bucket list track (Laguna Seca)
Who is in charge of these national events?

[Suck fumes]

The nasa champ events yrs ago when they had one race always seemed a lot better run and the prestige and sponsor prizes were always better. Ever since they split into east and west each champ race just seems like another event and doesn't feel as special as it used to. Heck at watkins glen royal purple didn't even offer any kind of prize at all! Which is what most people look forward to is that suit or helmet if you win. I don't know I have been pro NASA for a while now but lately I feel like if I want to go to a real champ race then maybe SCCA is a better run event?

[BADVENM]

Heres another view of the Corvette incident:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9OSrHFECxc

[BryanL]

Who is in charge of these national events?

Will has been in charge of some of them.

[mach1]

Will has been in charge of some of them.

Hmm

[JMR81]

We've been to many big events over the years . The two 25 Hour of Thunderhill by NASA rank among the best. The NASA East Coast Nationals are at the bottom. I don't know who was running it this year, but it was worse than Road Atlanta in 2014. There feeling of a big event was missing. The Nationals feel more like an over sized club race and the organnizers were not prepared.

The two best parts were registration/checkin and the grid organization.

The track and the facility was by far better than anything in Texas including COTA. Terrible food though.

That guy in the Vette had to sit through two classes of cars coming by him while he sat there defenseless. During the first race the leaders of the SU class actually caught up to the back of the NP01's before they took the flag, this was with pace cars leading each class. The Friday race AI were started with a disabled car some where between turn 1 and 2 with the green and
they threw the flag before all the cars had exited turn 11.

If next years race is going to be at Sebring like the rumor says NASA really need to pick up there game.

Thats just my opinion

[BryanL]

then maybe SCCA is a better run event?

What kind of class with SCCA? I have an interest in Spec E46 but don't know if they do that in SCCA or maybe the BMW clubs.

[Suck fumes]

The bmw's would be an IT class car. ITA, ITB, ITC. You pick how prepped you want the car.

[AI#97]

What kind of class with SCCA? I have an interest in Spec E46 but don't know if they do that in SCCA or maybe the BMW clubs.

Bryan, the best way to put this having discussed the differences with a LONG TIME SCCA racer is this. NASA has a rule book that is used as guidelines and can be overruled by a single director that may be a different interpretation at any given event at any time for the exact same situation and events are more for fun than serious racing.

SCCA is serious club racing with a set of rules that cannot be interpreted. Protests are handled by a committee with rules for handling themselves....and you could be asked to take your car home in a series of boxes to prove your legality because it is a serious race.

Compare and contrast as you like but that is the two organizations in a nutshell. You expect to get screwed by the SCCA because you live and die by the rules. You get screwed by NASA because you expect the rules to be enforced and then they aren't because it's ok cause we're ok. Either way you're screwed. LOL! Only way to have fun is just go have fun and piss on the rule book after drinking a 12 pack.

Edit: ANOTHER way to go have fun is buy a car that can run with CVAR and just go have fun with a bunch of old guys enjoying old cars making loud noises!

[ShadowBolt]

The track and the facility was by far better than anything in Texas including COTA.


I'm no fan of COTA as far as management is concerned but I can't see how Watkins Glen can have a better track?

JJ

[AI#97]

I'm no fan of COTA as far as management is concerned but I can't see how Watkins Glen can have a better track?

JJ

Scenery, elevation change and staff! You MUST do Road America too! Misty and I were only spectators but I MUST find a way to go back with a car. You need to do Mid-Ohio as well....and Atlanta Motorsports Park, and New Jersey Motorsports Park....and.....so many others! COTA has it's high points, but there are tracks all over that just have character sort of like Hallett that just....get ya.

[Rob Liebbe]

Edit: ANOTHER way to go have fun is buy a car that can run with CVAR and just go have fun with a bunch of old guys enjoying old cars making loud noises!

I wonder if CVAR would be interested in taking CMC under their wing?

[Fbody383]

I wonder if CVAR would be interested in taking CMC under their wing? Can we go back to 230hp and some cheap/hard/long-lasting tires?

[ShadowBolt]

Can we go back to 230hp and some cheap/hard/long-lasting tires?

I'm ready. Where do we sign?

JJ

[Supercharged111]

Can we go back to 300hp and some cheap/hard/long-lasting tires?

Fixed. My car could make 300 whp with very little in the way of mods. LS1 cars might stIill be slightly restricted.

[JMR81]

Back to Watkins Glenn. Here is a view of the start from the starters stand of the Group C race which included American Iron, Super Unlimited, NP01.
https://youtu.be/qQDsRExFL4I

[AllZWay]

Can we go back to 230hp and some cheap/hard/long-lasting tires?

Where is the like this post button?

[Fbody383]

Dave was right after all... We should get out of Mike's WG thread - more horsepower is more speed, more brakes, more expensive. You can add all the power and cubic dollars you want - there's already a class for that.

I got into CMC because it was "stock" based W2W racing.

[michaelmosty]

Back to Watkins Glenn. Here is a view of the start from the starters stand of the Group C race which included American Iron, Super Unlimited, NP01.
https://youtu.be/qQDsRExFL4I

I'm going to be blunt on my feelings but whoever made that call to give an aggressive waiving green should never work a race ever again. That same person better be thanking the lord that nothing went bad and nobody died.

We all show up to the track and have faith in the organization and people running the event that everything will be handled in the safest possible way. The order of importance that I have always heard and always preach is 1) Safety, 2) Fairness, and 3) Fun.
Nothing about this was safe, fair, or fun.
All it is, was a freaking embarrassment!!!! That makes me sick....

[Fbody383]

Nothing about this was safe, fair, or fun. All it is, was a freaking embarrassment!!!! That makes me sick.... I do want to attend a National Event but I have enough issues of my own and don't need the organizer contributing to them.

Good reminder that we should probably talk about Plan B when we're doing multiple green starts, i.e. what's expected of following groups, such as fall in line in grid order until you've passed a clear flag stand, etc.

[Supercharged111]

We should get out of Mike's WG thread - more horsepower is more speed, more brakes, more expensive. You can add all the power and cubic dollars you want - there's already a class for that.

I got into CMC because it was "stock" based W2W racing.

Come race here, we make uncorrected CMC1 numbers. :)

I was told by an AI driver who came up on it at 120 mph that he didn't even have time to check his mirrors, just jerked the wheel and hoped for the best.

[Waco Racer]

I wonder if CVAR would be interested in taking CMC under their wing?

Visit a CVAR event and you will know the answer to that question.

[Rob Liebbe]

Visit a CVAR event and you will know the answer to that question.

I've been to a CVAR event and thought CMC would be a good class for them. The spirit of the old cars without the high dollar amounts of true classics. They just might not have room for us.

[Waco Racer]

Did you talk to the board members?

[BryanL]

Clifton-sounds like you already know the answer so just tell us?

[Waco Racer]

ok

They are very determined to keep CVAR pre 1972 (pre 1980 for some formula cars). There have been some proposals to bring in some newer cars as a guest group. That didn't work. Many said "If you want a car like that, go run NASA." Some in their club don't think highly of NASA's rules or licensing procedures. There are some CVAR racers that have run NASA and liked it. It's just a different organization with different goals.