October 2016 TWS - Pics, Video, and Musings

[Fbody383]

Well, the second annual "Last Ever" TWS event has come and gone.

Big fields, good friends, and great racing. AND we, rather you, kept it all super clean all weekend.

The too frequent mustang motor carnage continued unabated - I guess we'll have to relent and allow the awesome LS motor for everything. Add in some splitter/bumber/radiator, some 5th gear woes, brake lines, power steering fluid, leaky tires, etc. just to round out the fun.


Speaking of the LS motor, that 15 car pulls all day long. I think we changed something every round trying to get that stupid thing solidly under 2:00, but to no avail - on lap time that is. As many of you confessed, it was certainly more racy - and obvious that Sean wasn't driving. Thanks to everybody that put in $0.02 to $2.00 to help us work on getting the car better.

On the other hand, the 39 looked good out there. Now I just have to make sure Sean stays in a third gen. Rounding out Team OIF, Paul had a mostly uneventful weekend including (if I remember correctly) a 2:07 on street tires.

Public apologies to Stuart for the contact and spin that I caused in R2. He was being swarmed by CMC cars going into 4 and I made the incorrect conclusion(s) that 1) He knew there was a car on his left, 2) he was going to hold his line middle-ish of track, 3) he knew I was on his right. He chose - with every right to do so - to drive down to the apex and I couldn't get out of the way, causing contact to this right rear wheel which spun him. He was very gracias and I certainly appreciate it.

And for those that missed it - Pip won the Bathurst sweeps taking home a little lunch money for her troubles. Well, I think she did. The handwriting was HORRIBLE... but since I held the hat and the money and know that name was actually drawn, and not first, I fell pretty good about. Good enough not to protest although absent HORRIBLE officiating call (racers will be racers) I would have won.

On a side note - if you found the GoPro we lost, that we found at MSRH, that somebody lost... I guess keep the camera but could we get the memory card back. As a bonus, there's a copy of part of the 2015 Year In Review on it.

[drecords]

Thanks to ALL who lent a hand changing #34's 5th gear synchro on Saturday evening. It still acted up, but I learned alot and annoyed my dinner date(s). :D; I also should have some great GoPro footage of the whole field passing me on the front straight in R4 as I fiddled with the shifter; editing/posting to come at a later date.

[Fbody383]

I also should have some great GoPro footage of the whole field passing me on the front straight in R4 as I fiddled with the shifter Huh, me too.

[marshall_mosty]

I had a great weekend and thankfully the new diff/axle package held up better than MSR-H. I did have a few issues with blown front struts (guess I shouldn't have gone 4 years without having them serviced), and a power steering hose that rubbed on the body and spewed fluid everywhere.

Thanks to John Martin for having a spare line available.

I ran my car on Saturday and Michael's on Sunday. Had a lot of fun in the back of the CMC field! It's crazy how much more "on edge" a CMC has to be driven...


On the flip side of Michael driving my car... he's addicted to aero. Lol

[jdlingle]

Had a blast getting back out there with everyone after way too long away. I finally felt like I was starting to knock some of the rust off in the final race so that was a positive. 4 years is WAY too long between events!

[mach1]

Had a great time, some of the best racing of my life with Mi. Mosty, Jander and McCormick. Looking forward to 2017. Thanks to everyone for making CMC/AI the best NASA group to be involved with, period.

[Crumpacker]

Whew! What an awesome weekend!! So glad to be back on track with you guys again.

Worked through some bugs on Friday and only messed with alignment, tire pressures and fuel the rest of the weekend. That's a success in it's own right. The racing was fantastic.. knocked the cobwebs off the car and renewed my Mid-Pack Slacker membership Saturday, even scared some of the Trophy Queens into running AI Sunday.

Here's some R4 action - https://vimeo.com/187883642

[BryanL]

Never start a letter with I-but I had a GREAT week/weekend. Scheduled a doc visit for skin cancer while picking up the trailer and got the all clear which I was worried about the deal he froze off my face. Work event was postponed Thursday night so I headed down for practice. Friday was the nicest day with some cool weather and good times. Enjoyed singing to Jerry and the old cars on Bathurst was cool.
Car ran perfect all weekend-pretty normal. Driver wasn't perfect which is also normal. While I like to think I'm still a Slacker it seems lots are moving up and putting me in the less speedy crowd-meaning Crumpacker can shove it thinking he is a slacker getting on the podium and running 58's all weekend-but I still love you Sam and glad you were on track with us. I did get a 59 but there isn't really any less speedy guys I think when the whole field of 17 is running 02 or better. Dad gum rookies come in and are immediately right on my butt. Field of 17 with two other guys completing comp school for next year means next year looks good-even AI has some good fields.

R1-was my favorite race of the weekend and had a lot of fun running in a good pack. R2 was interesting as I was trying to figure out what was flapping on Al's car-who did you hit this time or was it your vinyl? Did you hit Craig as he made a last second move to pull into the pits. Well Al's fender finally broke off at the end of the straight. Next lap around Francis hit it like you would aim at a cat in the road and broke it into more pieces. I did a lot of racing with Francis and finally made a pass only to miss freaking 4th gear after 6. Several solid middle class non toyo collecting finishes were expected but disappointed in letting basically everyone pass me on the inverts either on the straight in Turn 1 in R4 and 5-6 in R2. Sat night was such a good time starting the evening early in the afternoon. I love the lighted garages for hanging out and then the later crowd for V8 Supercars but I didn't stay up for the drama or the SWEEP-congrats Pip- well deserved.

The Mustang is Dead. Long Live the Mustang!

Cody-you sure can't trash talk but you are a good egg to have at the track. Don't say we don't give you any hospitality with a garage spot and no manties. You and Randy need to try and make more of our events if possible.

[Crumpacker]

https://vimeo.com/187904967

[Storm Trooper]

https://vimeo.com/187904967

Rotflmao

[Supercharged111]

Sam did you and Dave run through some oil at the end or what?

[Pranav]

Lmao sam

[AllZWay]

That is funny. :D

[Crumpacker]

Sam did you and Dave run through some oil at the end or what?

I think so.. I asked Sean after the race (he was driving Dave's car), he didn't remember seeing anything but we both lost the ass end at the exact same spot with no warning. Jay was a couple feet further right (ya know, actually hitting the apex) so I think he missed it.

[Fbody383]

I asked Sean after the race (he was driving Dave's car) He makes that car look better than I do.

[blk96gt]

Got the motor out and apart last night. Pistons/rings, head, rods and bearings looked good. No signs of detonation, but I could tell from the sparkplug that it wasn't firing. I guess the only thing left is a valve problem, either bent or wasn't sealing properly.

[BryanL]

Got the motor out and apart last night. Pistons/rings, head, rods and bearings looked good. No signs of detonation, but I could tell from the sparkplug that it wasn't firing. I guess the only thing left is a valve problem, either bent or wasn't sealing properly.

Sounds like that will be normal for next year. I hear the Fords are going to have to run on 7 cylinders from now on.

[dtanker65]

Sounds like that will be normal for next year. I hear the Fords are going to have to run on 7 cylinders from now on.

The LS cars already have a one cylinder advantage while the mustangs have to run itty bitty 4.6/5.0 motors.

[Fbody383]

The LS cars already have a one cylinder advantage while the mustangs have to run itty bitty 4.6/5.0 motors. We have to, to be able to keep up with headers, all that new technology, and drag the extra weight around.

[dtanker65]

We have to, to be able to keep up with headers, all that new technology, and drag the extra weight around.

Just kidding, had to respond to Bryans's annual lament.
The LS is very tough to beat in AI.
I think the foxes are fast because the drivers are good and they know their cars very well

[BryanL]

Just kidding, had to respond to Bryans's annual lament.
The LS is very tough to beat in AI.
I think the foxes are fast because the drivers are good and they know their cars very well

Wrong. You obviously don't know the difference from my kidding and my lamenting. The results will be in a separate thread but don't see how you could call results as lamenting. I was joking about MC which has nothing to do with AI. I think AI is certainly built around the S197-its the car that can't be beat.

[Fbody383]

Just kidding, had to respond to Bryans's annual lament. I just went through the other thread. I take Bryan at his word that the facts are as he says.

"Every fast lap in qual or race in CMC was by a Mustang."

Every.

I have made no bones that I have becoming increasingly concerned since Hallett. I think of myself as a midpack slacker and was consistently the third/fourth fastest car that weekend, on a track I just work well on.

I'm trying to separate posturing from facts but in no way do I believe anybody is sandbagging to get a rule change made.

Generally speaking, I think it's close... but what have we changed in the last 2 years? I tried looking up some of the RCRs/Director's Cut for 15/16 and hit dead links.

Time for rewards track reduction/weight additions... (maybe that's me kidding)

[mach1]

Time for rewards track reduction/weight additions/skinny tires... (maybe that's me kidding)
Oh man, I'm ready for my rewards!!

[RichardP]

Generally speaking, I think it's close... but what have we changed in the last 2 years?


I'm pretty sure the complaints about parity started more than two years ago... http://www.aicmctexas.com/showthread.php?5197-Pairity-Progress!


Richard P.

[blk96gt]

Race 2
https://youtu.be/4LvrjG-3gbs

[mach1]

Race 2
https://youtu.be/4LvrjG-3gbs

What happened with the 47, looks like you had the right to be there.

[blk96gt]

I didn't have position before the turn. It was my fault.

[mach1]

I didn't have position before the turn. It was my fault.

It looked like you had enough to be there, but he gave you more than 3/4 of a car width so I can see the fault.

[GlennCMC70]

My car is 1/4" over OEM track thanks to the rules. I dropped over an inch. At the same time, I had to add 50lbs. Not sure if the fox dropped weight or not aroumd the same time. I recall a 150lb swing - some taken from one and added to another.
Cannot deny that the GM's are finishing worst now then the fords did when the rules shift started. At the time, Mosty's performance was all but ignored and the remaining field was used to justify the change. Now we are ignoring the whole GM field and wishing GM drivers who are not racing now were there to prove GM's are still competitive. Seems crazy.

Varner, Mosty did well in Fox back in the day.
Burch and Wurtz did well in a 3rd gen back in the day.
Landrum and Proctor did well in a 4th gen back in the day.
Keep in mind one thing. If 1 driver of a single platform can get X performance out of the car, all cars of that platform are capable of the same. But we ignored that a few years back. Was adjustment needed? Possibly. Seems we did too much in the name of drawing in cars of a certain platform for the sole purpose balancing platform #'s and not the performane envelope.

[Fbody383]

I'm pretty sure the complaints about parity started more than two years ago... Agree; my memory is that the last two have been fairly static rules years, and that the Mustangs seem to be progressing much better than the GMs. Still on the fence but leaning that something should give.


Cannot deny that the GM's are finishing worst now then the fords did when the rules shift started. My understanding of the intent of the series is that the best drivers will be door to door at the finishing line, more often than not, regardless of platform.

I've said it out loud before that I know Tyler and Craig spend much more time and effort than I do and they reap their due rewards.

May need to do some AIX "fun runs" in 17.

[AI#97]

May need to do some AIX "fun runs" in 17.

Don't we all?!

As for the speed of A car...relate it to the seat time and chassis development of said driver/team. If you aren't going through tires, gas, time and track days, you aren't going to magically be running up front. As for the 4th gen guys, I said it friday night. SHOCKS! You guys are on a REAL tire now so start playing with spring and shock combos as well as tire pressures/temps. Those guys running at the front are doing it for a reason. Follow their methods and you might be matching their lead!

[marshall_mosty]

Everyone also needs to look at what those are doing up front. I believe (Craig, correct me if I'm wrong), but the podium 'Stangs are on fresh sticker rubber every Saturday morning, with those fresh tires only making it to Practice of the following event...

How "fresh" are the tires the 4th gen crew of cars are using.

I know CMC should be a budget series, but as long as those with the ability and desire to run fresh rubber each weekend, you are bringing a knife to a gun fight if you think a 10+ heat cycle tire will be able to get you on the podium.

Just my 0.02.

[GlennCMC70]

Time to change tires then.
We have some many rules in place that are there for no other reason that to stop folks from spending. Why are tire not that way.

I want 2005 CMC back.

[mach1]

Time to change tires then.
We have some many rules in place that are there for no other reason that to stop folks from spending. Why are tire not that way.

I want 2005 CMC back.
Let's run ra1's, contingencies stay the same.

[RichardP]

I want 2005 CMC back.

There were still issues back then. The rules were definitely against Fox Mustangs at that point. The track width was still governed by factory bodywork and all the Mustangs ran at the same weight. That put the narrow Fox Mustangs at a distinct disadvantage. Here is a thread I posted in 2007 requesting weight compensation for Foxes because of this issue:

http://www.aicmctexas.com/showthread.php?1242-Rule-Proposal-Fox-Mustang-weight-reduction

Almost a decade later, Fox Mustangs have a weight advantage but don't have a track width disadvantage. There are some small technical differences between Fox and other Mustangs but I don't see any performance reason for the weight discrepancy???

Meanwhile, my efforts to have track width governed by a number rather than bodywork seems to have backfired (The doesn't mean that I think using a number is the wrong answer). Reducing the track width of F-bodies was one of the changes implemented in 2013 to help out the Mustangs. The Orange Camaro is now over 1.5" narrower than it was when the bodywork governed the track width...


Richard P.

[Fbody383]

How "fresh" are the tires the 4th gen crew of cars are using. Depends on the race. I like to tire up for Hallett.


I want 2005 CMC back. Brake genie is out of the bottle. From a total/long-term cost perspective everybody seems to like the big brake value. I don't want to make the outlay. From a raceability perspective it seems to be an advantage in feel, fade, power, etc.

To me the opening question stands - are the rules currently "equitable" in the spirit/intent of CMC?

No, all my stuff is not for sale.

[AllZWay]

This tire sounds like a complete debacle. No way in this series should you have to run new tires every race just to be competitive.

[BryanL]

I didn't have position before the turn. It was my fault.

Exactly right Kevin. If you don't have position at turn in and the leading driver goes toward the apex then you don't have a right to be there. Thanks for posting the video-I enjoy watching them and will see if I have any video from the weekend.

[BryanL]

My car is 1/4" over OEM track thanks to the rules. I dropped over an inch. At the same time, I had to add 50lbs. Not sure if the fox dropped weight or not aroumd the same time. I recall a 150lb swing - some taken from one and added to another.
Cannot deny that the GM's are finishing worst now then the fords did when the rules shift started. At the time, Mosty's performance was all but ignored and the remaining field was used to justify the change. Now we are ignoring the whole GM field and wishing GM drivers who are not racing now were there to prove GM's are still competitive. Seems crazy.

Varner, Mosty did well in Fox back in the day.
Burch and Wurtz did well in a 3rd gen back in the day.
Landrum and Proctor did well in a 4th gen back in the day.
Keep in mind one thing. If 1 driver of a single platform can get X performance out of the car, all cars of that platform are capable of the same. But we ignored that a few years back. Was adjustment needed? Possibly. Seems we did too much in the name of drawing in cars of a certain platform for the sole purpose balancing platform #'s and not the performane envelope.

Correct Glenn. Weight was added and track width removed from the 4th Gen. Fox didn't drop any weight at the same time.

Back in 2012 it was evenly split as far as wins between Procter/Alford/Mosty when all showed up at the same race. But there was so much whining going on by the Mustangs it seemed like the directors just gave in so they wouldn't have to hear about it anymore.

Marshall-please don't blame the tires-it's so much easier to just blame the drivers.

I don't think the RA1 is the answer either as it isn't the same as the old RA1. I'm certainly in favor of a tire that would last all season and not fall off. Contingencies wouldn't matter if you only needed a set of tires for the whole season. We could all just fun run or go to one of the PT or ST classes with whatever tire we want.

[GlennCMC70]

I mentioned this to Al...........
Could there be a chance that the new tire does not suit a particular platform? Or suits another more? Perbaps we were on the right track with platform adjustments and assumed the tire change made in the middle of all that would affect all equally.

[dtanker65]

What tire would be an alternative? I would love to find a cheap practice tire. I have tried the Rivals looking for a long lasting practice tire. They disintegrated at the splice after five sessions on the smooth MSR surface. Tire Rack gave a full refund FWIW.

The RA1 as I understand is the same compound as the RR, but needs to be shaved to run in the dry to avoid chunking. I thought the RR is basically the equivalent of a shaved RA1?

Bill Ahga has a lot of experience with these tires, he uses them completely up before they get old, like I do. Now that I have the car square and drivie it properly, I can run the RR bald without cording. For my car the RR is good for 13 cycles before they get greasy. I am not noticeably faster on stickers versus 10 cycle tires, the car is more lively on old tires but still runs consistent on lap times.

I can't figure this out. Do the RR tires perform better for longer on a heavy car? I have been helped out by a couple of SCCA champions driving heavy cars on Hoosiers. They claim the Hoosier would be up to two seconds faster, but they would never even consider using 10 cycle tires. My only experience on Hoosiers is in a Miata and at 10 cycles they are worse than 200 utog street tires.

Any thoughts on cheaper tire alternatives that won't chunk on a heavy car.

[mach1]

Do we have any good solid data on the new RA1's? I think it's worth a shot to try them again, I am willing to show up to Houston with RA1's if we can agree on it class wide.

[Fbody383]

Any thoughts on cheaper tire alternatives that won't chunk on a heavy car. Nitto NT-01. After we did a 4 hour enduro on a set I used them for inverts for most of a season.

http://www.nittotire.com/race-tires/nt01-dot-compliant-competition-road-course-tire/


Could there be a chance that the new tire does not suit a particular platform? Or suits another more? Perbaps we were on the right track with platform adjustments and assumed the tire change made in the middle of all that would affect all equally. I think this is where I am, which is where my questions comes from about significant rule changes over the last 2 years. So while I'm trying to stay neutral, the mustangs have put significant distance on the Fbody slackers.

[Supercharged111]

This weekend I swapped over from a corded set of 25 cycle RRs to sticker RRs. I gained a whopping 1/10 and I'm damn consistent at Pueblo. I realize some tracks differ from others, but I have not seen a significant lap time difference from RA1 to RR nor have I seen a big swing in my car's performance from new to old RRs. I will say that, since I can only squeeze 3 weekends from them, there is less of a decrease in my confidence in the car with old tires vs cording RA1s, but IMO putting that much stock in stickers is stupid. Then again, I race in a region where I am the fastest car. I don't want to shit on my Ford guys, but when I break away I simply gap them so I don't really feel like I have much of a dog in the fight of Ford vs Chevy rebalancing argument. That said, I can drive Hallett every bit as fast as I can at Pueblo, and I definitely saw more of a disparity at Hallett last year WRT lap times than back home at Pueblo where I'm less than .3 seconds off of Flyin' Brian's lap record. Not sure what my input's worth, but I hope to see you all at MSRC in March and re-evaluate from there. I will show up with stickers though based on others' advice.

[BADVENM]

Anyone know anything about the new Toyo R888R? How it compares to RA1's, R888's, RR's?

https://www.toyotires.com/tire/pattern/proxes-r888r-dot-competition-tires

From Toyo website

R888R - dry (4.5), wet (4.0), braking (4.5), tire life (4.5)
R888 - dry (4.0), wet (4.5), braking (4.5), tire life (4.5)
RR - dry (4.5), wet (zero), braking (4.5), tire life (4.0)
RA1 - dry (3.5), wet (5.0), braking (4.5), tire life (5.0)

[mach1]

Anyone know anything about the new Toyo R888R? How it compares to RA1's, R888's, RR's?

https://www.toyotires.com/tire/pattern/proxes-r888r-dot-competition-tires

From Toyo website

R888R - dry (4.5), wet (4.0), braking (4.5), tire life (4.5)
R888 - dry (4.0), wet (4.5), braking (4.5), tire life (4.5)
RR - dry (4.5), wet (zero), braking (4.5), tire life (4.0)
RA1 - dry (3.5), wet (5.0), braking (4.5), tire life (5.0)

Nice find, looks like the 888 is supported by the toyo contingency too.
I think we found a winner, they are only $180 a tire, but the largest size is 255/40ZR17 for 17's, lets do it!

[Fbody383]

Nice find, looks like the 888 is supported by the toyo contingency too. The original 888s sucked, but I'm open to something like this if the class is.

I need tires for '17 but will show up to Hallett on RRs unless we have definitively addressed this prior to the event.

[dtanker65]

Nice find, looks like the 888 is supported by the toyo contingency too.
I think we found a winner, they are only $180 a tire, but the largest size is 255/40ZR17 for 17's, lets do it!

Tyler I doubt you would back away from a race if you had to run new old stock Montgomery Ward All Season Radials (especially in the wet)

My first set of R comps were NT01's. I was pretty green then but they seemed about like the RR's.

One factor we are failing to take into account is the track condition. I have run a few SCCA events where the majority of cars are running on full slicks or Hoosiers. They lay down a lot of rubber. On top of that rubber layer, the grip level of fresh RR's is phenomenal, like new sneakers on a basketball court. The slick rubber bonds to the track and the RR's stick well to the slick rubber. Nasa events run many hard street compound tires that scrub off the soft, grippy rubber from the track. Just a thought. Running with them other guys is too rich for my blood.

[mach1]

Tyler I doubt you would back away from a race if you had to run new old stock Montgomery Ward All Season Radials (especially in the wet)

You know me so well, takes me back to the days of taking out mustangs in my ls1 camaro that was rolling on all seasons, at least they were new new stock :)

[mitchntx]

http://www.catster.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/0f3fa2d1aa074f5e56e5e08b5fa60a89.jpg

I have a cat ...

[Fbody383]

And the circle is complete.

[Rob Liebbe]

http://www.catster.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/0f3fa2d1aa074f5e56e5e08b5fa60a89.jpg

I have a cat ... You have a stupid cat. :)