RA1's for 2017 CMC

[mach1]

Do you want to run RA1's for 2017?

[Fbody383]

Before I vote... I would want a sense of what people are doing for Hallett. If I was only going to make one race a year it would be there. Dont' want to bring an even smaller knife to a gunfight.

[mach1]

RA1's for Hallett would probably be fine for TX guys, the CO and other out of region guys would be the question.

[drecords]

Really regretting not having the RA1 rains I bought this year shaved

[Pranav]

Do you often regret not shaving?

[mach1]

Really regretting not having the RA1 rains I bought this year shaved

Maybe you can find someone local to shave them?

[liquidroam]

Maybe I am missing something, what is the thought behind the question?

[Fbody383]

Maybe I am missing something, what is the thought behind the question? Can we get enough folks to agree to use the RA1 instead of the RR in the hopes that over the life of the tire, the tire is more consistent.

[Storm Trooper]

2. INTENT
The intent of the Camaro Mustang Challenge (CMC) racing series is to provide National Auto Sport Association (NASA) members a racing series featuring production American pony cars. Modifications will be limited to those necessary to promote safety, close competition, and flexibility to enable drivers to learn and experiment with the principles of race car setup within boundaries intended to limit expenses, thereby providing the drivers with fun, exciting, and challenging yet approachable racing.
Good sportsmanship is valued more than finishing position.

Some where I think we have veered off of the path! But that's just me.

Sean

[michaelmosty]

I have not voted yet but my concern is the RA1 will not do any better than the RR with regards to falling off.
I think we all will agree that the new RA1 compound is different than the "thin-to-win" philosophy from 10 years ago. I just wouldn't want to run RA1's and have them drop off like the RR's.

[mach1]

I have not voted yet but my concern is the RA1 will not do any better than the RR with regards to falling off.
I think we all will agree that the new RA1 compound is different than the "thin-to-win" philosophy from 10 years ago. I just wouldn't want to run RA1's and have them drop off like the RR's.

There is that risk, the way I look at it is that we can do nothing or try the RA1's which "might" work out, if they don't we can make a change back to RR's.

[Storm Trooper]

RR's are $258.31 ea. plus $8.50 per tire to ship
RA-1's shaved to 4/32nds are $253.45 ea. + $25.00 ea. to shave plus $8.50 per tire to ship

RA-1's are more expensive ( I did only get one quote but I can't believe they be that much difference)

[ShadowBolt]

I have not voted yet but my concern is the RA1 will not do any better than the RR with regards to falling off.
I think we all will agree that the new RA1 compound is different than the "thin-to-win" philosophy from 10 years ago. I just wouldn't want to run RA1's and have them drop off like the RR's.


If the new RA1 does fall off just like the RR them I'm with Michael.

JJ

[ShadowBolt]

RR's are $258.31 ea. plus $8.50 per tire to ship
RA-1's shaved to 4/32nds are $253.45 ea. + $25.00 ea. to shave plus $8.50 per tire to ship

RA-1's are more expensive ( I did only get one quote but I can't believe they be that much difference)

I was thinking the RA1 was around 210 plus shaving.

JJ

[mach1]

For what it's worth I was running 28's at Hallett on 40 heat cycle 255 ra'1s from 2013

[Supercharged111]

I have not voted yet but my concern is the RA1 will not do any better than the RR with regards to falling off.
I think we all will agree that the new RA1 compound is different than the "thin-to-win" philosophy from 10 years ago. I just wouldn't want to run RA1's and have them drop off like the RR's.

This is why I haven't voted. I have had RA1s cycle out before the cords and I've had RRs run good to the cords. I'm not convinced the new breed of RA1 is going to cut costs vs the current RR. I ran 2014 on full tread RA1s and needed 2 sets to get through the season due to the 1st falling off. I ran 2015 on leftover RA1s (at Pueblo only) and the 1 set of RRs I did buy. I ran 2016 on leftover RRs from 2015 and another set I managed to burn through. I have yet to see a significant difference between the tire compounds. From my observations, the ONLY things that seem to make my lap times swing are DA track temps.

[BADVENM]

For me personally (#8 Fox Mustang) I ran my fastest lap times ever at Pueblo last year (1:44.495, track record 1:44.06) in September with 20 heat cycles on my RR's. Track temperature was 107. For the next race that afternoon I ran another 1:44.994 with 21 heat cycles and track temperature of 110. I should also note that I flipped the tires at heat cycle 18.

Interestingly I switched to another set of RR's the next day that had 11 heat cycles on them. Track temp was similar to the above at 110 degrees, my best lap time was 1:46.858...about 2.5 seconds slower compared to the set with 21 heat cycles on them. I then experimented for our Hanksville fun race an hour or two later and put the other set back on which were now on heat cycle 23. Track temp was 98 degrees, my best lap dropped back down to a 1:45.435.

A few weeks ago at Pueblo I had a brand new set of RR's on the car (heat cycle #1). Track temperature was 77 degrees under a sunny sky and air temperature of 84 degrees. My fastest lap time was 1:45.684.

Not sure how to summarize this but for one set of RRs (last year) I got some incredible lap times well into the low to mid 20 heat cycle range.

[ShadowBolt]

In May of this year at TWS on Friday practice I was running 16-18 HC RR's. I changed to all stickers after one went flat for the last session and ran two seconds faster! I'm sure Eric Foss told me Tyler also ran two seconds faster after changing to stickers that same afternoon. I have no idea how many heat cycles were on Tyler's old tires. Tyler?

How that can be after Michael set a track record on 18-20 heat cycle RR's is beyond my comprehension.


JJ

[michaelmosty]

I have no clue Jerry. I set the "then" track record at TWS in 2014 (I think) on heat cycle 18 and then the next event, the track record at ECR on heat cycle 24. This has been my only set of RR's that has been fast with high heat cycles as every other set has felt like total crap.

[ShadowBolt]

I have no clue Jerry. I set the "then" track record at TWS in 2014 (I think) on heat cycle 18 and then the next event, the track record at ECR on heat cycle 24. This has been my only set of RR's that has been fast with high heat cycles as every other set has felt like total crap.

If I remember that was your second set of RR's. The first set and every other set since have fallen off after 10-12 heat cycles at the most.


JJ

[blk96gt]

Is anyone getting the tires heat cycled before they're delivered?

Also, are you going out on a fresh set of tires with no heat cycles and going balls to the wall for a 25min race? Or are you going out in a session on Friday with a fresh set and doing a few laps at 75-80% and then bringing it in and letting the tires sit until the next day?

I've noticed a significant decrease in tire life when I've gone out and went 10/10 on the first heat cycle, vs going out and doing a few laps hard enough to get some heat in the tires and then coming in and letting them sit.

[ShadowBolt]

Is anyone getting the tires heat cycled before they're delivered?

Also, are you going out on a fresh set of tires with no heat cycles and going balls to the wall for a 25min race? Or are you going out in a session on Friday with a fresh set and doing a few laps at 75-80% and then bringing it in and letting the tires sit until the next day?

I've noticed a significant decrease in tire life when I've gone out and went 10/10 on the first heat cycle, vs going out and doing a few laps hard enough to get some heat in the tires and then coming in and letting them sit.

I paid for heat cycling from Phil's Tire but could not tell any difference in tire life or fall off so I stopped paying for it. I have not tried your method Kevin. Your the only one I know that changes tires and wheels six times per race weekend. LOL

JJ

[BADVENM]

When I've put on fresh sticker still on the tires it was for Toyo and/or points races, not for warmups or qualifying. If memory serves me I did this last year at High Plains Raceway. While the other competitors were grasping for grip in a few turns at the beginning of the race I was able to stick to the inside and carry more speed putting me in front and I think winning the race. I did this at Pueblo two weekends ago (Saturday) and was able to get a rare first place finish.

[MikeP99Z]

Not my place to vote, but my $0.02 -

As far as I know, the current RA1 compound is the same as the RR - you just get some tread. There is no more long lasting compound like the 2005 RA1. Y'all are chasing a goose and there is no golden egg.

I'd find it hard to get everyone to agree to run 4/32 shaved RA1s.

Through tire testing (and I burned a lot of tires), the RR is faster than the RA1 due to being round and lack of tread. It is critical that the tire is treated correctly, and track temp plays a huge role. I killed a new set of RRs in one session because I cooked them to 250* - they had huge degradation after that session.

I set the ECR record the same weekend that Michael did, and I was also on 16 heat cycle tires because I was burning up leftovers from the season. It was a great track day temp wise, and the surface just had grip that weekend. I normally only run 10-12 heat cycles, then onto a new set.

Treating the RR nicely the first session, then letting it properly vulcanize will give you some longevity and nice consistency for remaining track days. Driving like an animal the first few heat cycles will be great for that day and lap times, but terrible for longevity. Super hot ambient temps also affect tire wear and some days the track surface just doesn't have the grip.

Collect relevant data.

[ShadowBolt]

So I just got off the phone from talking to Phil. Toyo swears the compound has never changed on the RA1! He says a shaved RA1 should last a few more sessions than the RR but just a few more. The RA1 is a slower tire. The new 888 so far has not been used in a race group and is only being used by track-day guys. Not enough info to know if this will be a good race tire or not. He said the most important thing is exactly what Mike said above......."YOU MUST BE EASY ON THE TIRE THE FIRST SESSION AND IT MUST REST AT A MINIMUM 24 HOURS TO GET THE MOST LIFE OUT OF R COMPOUND TIRES". I ask if the heat cycling they offer is just as good as an easy session then the 24 hour wait and was told yes it is.

The RA1 is going to cost us more and we will not be able to get tires shipped out the same day (at least not with Phil's) due to shaving time (Phil shaves all tires himself). Phil said there is no reason we should not be able to get through a six race weekends schedule on three sets of tires and that includes a practice day prior to each race weekend.

JJ

[blk96gt]

Here is how you can get two good weekends out of a set of tires. This assumes you have at lest one set of older tires that can stand another 8 heat cycles or so.

Friday Practice - If you have a set of tires that haven't been heat cycles, go out and run a few 7/10 laps, park the car and pull the tires off. Put on older tires for the rest of the day.

Saturday - If you do warmup, use the old tires. Put on new tires for Qual and R1. After R1, swap to the older set for R2 invert.

Sunday - Swap back to new tires for qual and R3 (also rotate tires at this point), swap to older set for R4.

At this point you've got 4-5 heat cycles on your newer tires. You've still got plenty of life left to use them for Qual and Toyo race for the next weekend, and they're not likely to start falling off until after R3 on the second weekend. After the second weekend use them for practice and invert races. They will fall off after 8HC or so, but if you treat them right they don't fall off too bad until around 12HC.

[Rob Liebbe]

Here is how you can get two good weekends out of a set of tires. This assumes you have at lest one set of older tires that can stand another 8 heat cycles or so.

Friday Practice - If you have a set of tires that haven't been heat cycles, go out and run a few 7/10 laps, park the car and pull the tires off. Put on older tires for the rest of the day.

Saturday - If you do warmup, use the old tires. Put on new tires for Qual and R1. After R1, swap to the older set for R2 invert.

Sunday - Swap back to new tires for qual and R3 (also rotate tires at this point), swap to older set for R4.

At this point you've got 4-5 heat cycles on your newer tires. You've still got plenty of life left to use them for Qual and Toyo race for the next weekend, and they're not likely to start falling off until after R3 on the second weekend. After the second weekend use them for practice and invert races. They will fall off after 8HC or so, but if you treat them right they don't fall off too bad until around 12HC.

Easy!!!:rolleyes:

[Supercharged111]

When I've put on fresh sticker still on the tires it was for Toyo and/or points races, not for warmups or qualifying. If memory serves me I did this last year at High Plains Raceway. While the other competitors were grasping for grip in a few turns at the beginning of the race I was able to stick to the inside and carry more speed putting me in front and I think winning the race. I did this at Pueblo two weekends ago (Saturday) and was able to get a rare first place finish.

I wouldn't attribute that to tires, the people behind you were over 2 seconds a lap slower.

[BADVENM]

I wouldn't attribute that to tires, the people behind you were over 2 seconds a lap slower.

So what do you attribute it to? Obviously they were slower...but why? Were they on sticker tires? Corded tires?

[Pranav]

Great discussion guys. Please use Jander's tips often, and be sure to sell me your used tires.

Every time I buy a new set of tires I blow an engine; I officially have swapped more engines than I've bought NEW tires in my 4 seasons of CMC.

So sell me your gently used RRs.

Think of the engines.

[Supercharged111]

So what do you attribute it to? Obviously they were slower...but why? Were they on sticker tires? Corded tires?

Because you can outdrive them, period. Put them on stickers and you on junk, you'll still go faster.

[BADVENM]

Has anybody asked Toyo directly what the optimum or target tire temperature is hot? We have the equipment to measure the temperatures after a race/qual/practice etc but haven't due to a lack of crew. I'd have to jump out and do it myself. I think we may be overheating our tires based on our slower lap times from the halfway point of a race to the end. We have datalogger info to review to see if our lateral G's are in fact decreasing which may help answer part of the question.

I hope to gather hot tire temperature data next season right off the track along with various other parameters. I have a few other ideas to try out as well...all in hopes to keep up with Dustin ;)

[mach1]

Has anybody asked Toyo directly what the optimum or target tire temperature is hot? We have the equipment to measure the temperatures after a race/qual/practice etc but haven't due to a lack of crew. I'd have to jump out and do it myself. I think we may be overheating our tires based on our slower lap times from the halfway point of a race to the end. We have datalogger info to review to see if our lateral G's are in fact decreasing which may help answer part of the question.

I hope to gather hot tire temperature data next season right off the track along with various other parameters. I have a few other ideas to try out as well...all in hopes to keep up with Dustin ;)

I think they say 180-220

[Fbody383]

I want to re-vote then... nothing tells me that a potential minor HC difference on the RA is worth the shave costs. Now I'm just more pissed about it... maybe cash the 401 out and literally bring a new set every event.



And then refuse to sell them to you guys... just stack up a giant tire hoard pyramid.

[MikeP99Z]

I target 200, but am more concerned with temps across the entire face. I start getting nervous at 225. I also target specific hot pressures.

[MikeP99Z]

just stack up a giant tire hoard pyramid.

I have a tire pyramid in my garage - all 18" tires - who's buying? I'll sell cheap.

[mach1]

I have a tire pyramid in my garage - all 18" tires - who's buying? I'll sell cheap.

CMC rule change!

[mach1]

I want to re-vote then... nothing tells me that a potential minor HC difference on the RA is worth the shave costs. Now I'm just more pissed about it... maybe cash the 401 out and literally bring a new set every event.



And then refuse to sell them to you guys... just stack up a giant tire hoard pyramid.
We won't know for sure unless we try, but yeah, I'm thinking the hassle may not be worth it. Supply of the RA1 may be difficult at times too.

[Trublu]

Is anyone getting the tires heat cycled before they're delivered?

Also, are you going out on a fresh set of tires with no heat cycles and going balls to the wall for a 25min race? Or are you going out in a session on Friday with a fresh set and doing a few laps at 75-80% and then bringing it in and letting the tires sit until the next day?

I've noticed a significant decrease in tire life when I've gone out and went 10/10 on the first heat cycle, vs going out and doing a few laps hard enough to get some heat in the tires and then coming in and letting them sit.

I think heat cycling is worth it, the tire holds up better and is generally more consistent

[liquidroam]

I want to re-vote then... nothing tells me that a potential minor HC difference on the RA is worth the shave costs. Now I'm just more pissed about it... maybe cash the 401 out and literally bring a new set every event.



And then refuse to sell them to you guys... just stack up a giant tire hoard pyramid.


In that case skip the tires and hire a "stig" to instruct.

[Supercharged111]

Has anybody asked Toyo directly what the optimum or target tire temperature is hot? We have the equipment to measure the temperatures after a race/qual/practice etc but haven't due to a lack of crew. I'd have to jump out and do it myself. I think we may be overheating our tires based on our slower lap times from the halfway point of a race to the end. We have datalogger info to review to see if our lateral G's are in fact decreasing which may help answer part of the question.

I hope to gather hot tire temperature data next season right off the track along with various other parameters. I have a few other ideas to try out as well...all in hopes to keep up with Dustin ;)

Aww c'mon, don't make me put effort into going faster.

[Fbody383]

In that case skip the tires and hire a "stig" to drive. Fixed that for ya... Don't be shocked if you see a fast face in the #39.

So that leaves BOUDREAUX out... BAM! Right there...

[liquidroam]

Fixed that for ya... Don't be shocked if you see a fast face in the #39.

So that leaves BOUDREAUX out... BAM! Right there...

I see what you did there James May.

[mach1]

So at this point, with the trouble and costs involved, is anyone still interested in this RA1 experiment?

[ShadowBolt]

So at this point, with the trouble and costs involved, is anyone still interested in this RA1 experiment?
Not me.

JJ

[BryanL]

I might be more interested in the NT01 or something else that would last longer and not fall off.

[dtanker65]

I might be more interested in the NT01 or something else that would last longer and not fall off.

What are they offering for tire money?

[BryanL]

What are they offering for tire money?

Who cares is my first response. If all you need is a set of tires for the whole year like 10 years ago then it's not a big deal and much better for the entire group. What's the tire rule for the WRL, Chump, Lemons etc? Could that be a factor in the increasing participation in those series?

[mach1]

I think we are going to see the tires fall off no matter what we use, I have a feeling CMC is significantly more competitive than 10 years ago and stickers of xyz tire are still going to net some time.

[blk96gt]

Yeah I'd like to see a lap time comparison between what people are running now vs. 10 years ago.

Another question I have is were folks in AI seeing the same tire life as the guys in CMC back in the good ol' days?

[dtanker65]

I can't see running a whole lot longer on NT01's than RR's. WRL limits tires to 200 utqg and on the Miata they are done after one day, but you really have to consider Mike's point about the tire curing. Race tires are not fully cured from the manufacturer, heat and age cure the rubber. Neither of these factors really impact the tire in an enduro because the tread is gone after a day before the tire cures and gets hard. There isn't much point in hoarding tires either because they will age harden. Why don't you run a tire test? I bet everybody would want to know if there is a grippy iron wearing tire that won't chunk out there. I doubt you would be protested.

[MikeP99Z]

I kill tires as much now as I did 10 years ago. But the Toyo bucks are much better now, so that helps ease the pain. A 3400# car kills tires, and if you want to run up front, and have the car handle correctly, and not chase setup on bad rubber, that lap time difference for good tires is needed.

[marshall_mosty]

I kill tires as much now as I did 10 years ago. But the Toyo bucks are much better now, so that helps ease the pain. A 3400# car kills tires, and if you want to run up front, and have the car handle correctly, and not chase setup on bad rubber, that lap time difference for good tires is needed.

Just drive slower and they will last longer... (and I would appreciate it). :)

[mach1]

Just drive slower and they will last longer... (and I would appreciate it). :)

Exactly

[MikeP99Z]

At least I get 10-12 heat cycles on the RR. When I raced Touring 2, I'd have to ditch the Hoosiers after 5-6 heat cycles...

[MikeP99Z]

Just drive slower and they will last longer... (and I would appreciate it). :)

Meh...

[BryanL]

I'm in favor of looking into a 200 tread rated tire to see if it would last 5-6 events. I'm happy to be the guinea pig as well. I used 2 sets of tires this year for 3 events and not interested in doing that going forward as I don't understand the point in our type of class-again I only discuss CMC.

Not very relevant to compare lap times to 10 years ago-different tire, different compound, less power, less brake, less shock, less development, more weight for Camaro's, etc.

Previous RA1 nobody was cycling out a tire because it had 5 heat cycles and times didn't drop. The motto was the RA1 sucked but it sucked for a long time. Now we have a tire that is much closer to a Hoosier which benefits lap times but nothing else. Who cares what lap times we run anyway.

[blk96gt]

I'm in favor of looking into a 200 tread rated tire to see if it would last 5-6 events. I'm happy to be the guinea pig as well. I used 2 sets of tires this year for 3 events and not interested in doing that going forward as I don't understand the point in our type of class-again I only discuss CMC.

Not very relevant to compare lap times to 10 years ago-different tire, different compound, less power, less brake, less shock, less development, more weight for Camaro's, etc.

Previous RA1 nobody was cycling out a tire because it had 5 heat cycles and times didn't drop. The motto was the RA1 sucked but it sucked for a long time. Now we have a tire that is much closer to a Hoosier which benefits lap times but nothing else. Who cares what lap times we run anyway.

Faster laps means you're pushing the tire harder which means faster degradation.

I really don't think a 200tw tire is going to be any better. It may last longer, but you'll still have a drop off in lap times after 7 or 8 heat cycles. I've ran NT05's on my car and saw times drop after 8 heat cycles.

[JMR81]

Maxiss rc1 is about $250.00 for 275/35/18 and $205.00 for 275/35/17. Pays free tires to !-3 in every class but AI and CMC

[Pranav]

Maxiss rc1 is about $250.00 for 275/35/18 and $205.00 for 275/35/17. Pays free tires to !-3 in every class but AI and CMC

They make a 275/40-17.

That would be great for me, both trailer and race car on the same brand of tires LOL.

[dtanker65]

Maxiss rc1 is about $250.00 for 275/35/18 and $205.00 for 275/35/17. Pays free tires to !-3 in every class but AI and CMC

What do Jack and Jason think about the Maxxis?

[Storm Trooper]

I'm in favor of looking into a 200 tread rated tire to see if it would last 5-6 events. I'm happy to be the guinea pig as well. I used 2 sets of tires this year for 3 events and not interested in doing that going forward as I don't understand the point in our type of class-again I only discuss CMC.

Not very relevant to compare lap times to 10 years ago-different tire, different compound, less power, less brake, less shock, less development, more weight for Camaro's, etc.

Previous RA1 nobody was cycling out a tire because it had 5 heat cycles and times didn't drop. The motto was the RA1 sucked but it sucked for a long time. Now we have a tire that is much closer to a Hoosier which benefits lap times but nothing else. Who cares what lap times we run anyway.

I will be a guinea pig with ya!
Nitto's NT-01 $214 ea free shipping
http://www.jegs.com/i/Nitto/726/40294/10002/-1
2 for 1 race and rain tire.

[JMR81]

What do Jack and Jason think about the Maxxis?

Dennis, we haven't tried them. Like everybody else we want to evaluate ways to cut cost. I have 4 sets of RR's with less than 3 heat cycles. If we decicde to run some races out side of AI, then I could see us trying a different brand. We do a lot of testing so we know pretty well where the tires start to drop off based on our car and driver. Results will vary from track to track. I don't see us putting the time and expense into doing the same with RA1's. We generally heat cycle a set and put them away,some times we use them for quaili. We always have a heat cycled set for the toyo races and run older tires for the inverts. It's a system that works for us.

[dtanker65]

Thanks Tam. I have heard good and bad about the Maxxis, but no relevant data. I was told it is a street compound grooved to look like a race tire, but on lighter cars not pushed to the limit it seems to last longer than the softer compounds. I was mainly interested in finding a practice tire I could run longer than the RR, but I think buying used RR's is the way to go for practice tires. I haven't run any new Hoosiers yet, only cycled out tires and they are terrible once they fall off. Mike hit the nail on the head, the car weight is the main factor with any tire run. He has been driving at the tire limit for a long time, just look at the consistency of his lap times. I believe that the group is just getting faster, there is not any tire issue, winning will mitigate tire budget issues and any unshaved street compound will chunk. JMHO

[Suck fumes]

yah there will never be any magic tire that will last a season on todays cars with current speeds. just not a reality. and RA1's are not any better. shaving is a pain to have to deal with and pay for all the time. and getting tires that are shaved well and consistant is a whole nutha issue.

[marshall_mosty]

It would be nice if Toyo took the RR construction and just changed the rubber to a 200 tread wear formula and call it the RR-Endurance

[dtanker65]

Interesting idea Marshall, the tire molds for the RR have already been cast. It would introduce an F1 style wrinkle into the series.

[marshall_mosty]

Maybe a post-production "green stripe" or "red stripe" to designate the difference.

[Supercharged111]

Well those jokers pitched the RR as a response to racer demand, so don't hold your breath. That said, I'm not seeing a significant drop in lap times on RRs in my region. This is part of what drives rule changes. What are the racing surfaces like here in RM vs there in TX or GL/MW? These are all factors that must be considered when making a change like this.

[dtanker65]

I have been thinking that too about RM, maybe different aggregate in the paving that doesn't get polished as easily as in the flatland. There are a handful of drivers in TX that fully understand setup and are driving at the pro level. Like EF Hutton when they speak about tires, I listen. We have some really fast wabbits to chase in TX.