So, what's the deal on the Radios??

[Mike Bell]

I know there's still something cooking with the safety broadcast and Boudy's radio gig - what's the plan for the TX region?

We going to use them in October?

[Boudy]

Yes, there will be a Safety Broadcast provided in Houston.

For those who have radios and scanners already, the channels to be used for Safety Broadcasts with be as follows. 1 is the primary and 2 is the backup if we encounter interference.
1) 464.5625
2) 469.5625
I will use these channels consistantly across all regions.

For those who don't have a way to monitor, here's what I have available:

1) Rental Units - $55
Includes 1 radio that recieves SB and a listen only earpiece. Charged battery and mounting pouch also included. For those who already have my earpiece, rental of radio only is $30.

2) Purchase Units - $145
Includes 1 radio that receives SB and a listen only earpiece. Charged battery and mounting pouch also included. For those who already have my earpiece, radio only is $120.

Yes, you can add another radio later and communicate with crew using this radio. However radio can only listen to the SB or listen to your crew, not both simultaniously. These are basic models that don't scan. 100% credit will be given if you chose to upgrade to a scan model next season.

There were not many takers at TWS, come on guys, this may be mandatory soon. Let's already be on board when it goes down.

Boudy

[Mike Bell]

Boudy,

Thanks again for all of your hard work on this as well as the info. What is the price on a radio that scans? I'd like to get it all at once if possible rather than go through upgrades later. Also, I seem to recall some reception issues from TWS, is an external antenna needed/recommended?

[AI#97]

Yes, there will be a Safety Broadcast provided in Houston.

For those who have radios and scanners already, the channels to be used for Safety Broadcasts with be as follows. 1 is the primary and 2 is the backup if we encounter interference.
1) 464.5625
2) 469.5625
I will use these channels consistantly across all regions.

For those who don't have a way to monitor, here's what I have available:

1) Rental Units - $55
Includes 1 radio that recieves SB and a listen only earpiece. Charged battery and mounting pouch also included. For those who already have my earpiece, rental of radio only is $30.

2) Purchase Units - $145
Includes 1 radio that receives SB and a listen only earpiece. Charged battery and mounting pouch also included. For those who already have my earpiece, radio only is $120.

Yes, you can add another radio later and communicate with crew using this radio. However radio can only listen to the SB or listen to your crew, not both simultaniously. These are basic models that don't scan. 100% credit will be given if you chose to upgrade to a scan model next season.

There were not many takers at TWS, come on guys, this may be mandatory soon. Let's already be on board when it goes down.

Boudy

Boudy, is there an option to test/rent a radio, earpiece and a crew radio this coming event? I am intersted in that as I will have pit crew with me to possibly relay some info during the race. would like cost for the two radio set and if there can be a test/rent/purchase credit if we like it.

also, what are the details for mounting and powering the radios in the car? Are they battery powered and come with chargers? I will scan for an argent labs website too.....

Thanks!

[marshall_mosty]

What type of information is broadcast over the safety frequency?

[Boudy]

The best method we've found is to monitor the incoming corner workers and relay that to the drivers. You'll hear about spins and when they clear, flags and when they clear, and other important info. The first SB was performed in Cali last weekend using the entire run group. 100% possitive driver feedback. Some said they never wanted to race again without it. Jerry listened in and he and Tony met on Monday. Needless to say, it's probably gonna be mandatory for AI/CMC next year in all regions with us paving the way to all classes to follow.

We had a couple problems at TWS. First, the back horseshoe is in the shadow on the back of that hill. Communications to that area will always be difficult. Second, the attempt at our SB was made without the antenna plugged into the radio so it was a wash. We covered Mid-Ohio and Infineon with no problems.

Radio Prices:

3 watt w/out scan - $120 ea
Best value to receive SB but not suited for SB and comm to crew simultainiously.

3 watt w/scan - $179+
Was slated for $179 but revisions are driving price up. If price reaches near the 5 watt unit, I will not bother with a 3 watt scan, pointless.

5 watt w/scan - $259 ea
Ideal for talking w/crew on one channel while scanning the SB on another.

The following is needed based on your application.

Receive only earpiece - $49 ($25 for this last event)

Car Kit - $169 & $179 (Eartube vs Speakers)
Includes helmet kit, car harness, and PTT.

External Antenna Kit - $79

Light Duty Crew Headset - $59

Heavy Duty Crew Headset - $279

Yes, radios come with chargers. Rental fees can be applied to purchase. It's $75 for a pair and headset needed for crew.

Boudy

[AI#97]

The best method we've found is to monitor the incoming corner workers and relay that to the drivers. You'll hear about spins and when they clear, flags and when they clear, and other important info. The first SB was performed in Cali last weekend using the entire run group. 100% possitive driver feedback. Some said they never wanted to race again without it. Jerry listened in and he and Tony met on Monday. Needless to say, it's probably gonna be mandatory for AI/CMC next year in all regions with us paving the way to all classes to follow.

We had a couple problems at TWS. First, the back horseshoe is in the shadow on the back of that hill. Communications to that area will always be difficult. Second, the attempt at our SB was made without the antenna plugged into the radio so it was a wash. We covered Mid-Ohio and Infineon with no problems.

Radio Prices:

3 watt w/out scan - $120 ea
Best value to receive SB but not suited for SB and comm to crew simultainiously.

3 watt w/scan - $179+
Was slated for $179 but revisions are driving price up. If price reaches near the 5 watt unit, I will not bother with a 3 watt scan, pointless.

5 watt w/scan - $259 ea
Ideal for talking w/crew on one channel while scanning the SB on another.

The following is needed based on your application.

Receive only earpiece - $49 ($25 for this last event)

Car Kit - $169 & $179 (Eartube vs Speakers)
Includes helmet kit, car harness, and PTT.

External Antenna Kit - $79

Light Duty Crew Headset - $59

Heavy Duty Crew Headset - $279

Yes, radios come with chargers. Rental fees can be applied to purchase. It's $75 for a pair and headset needed for crew.

Boudy

too complicated for me....I am just going to stick to what has worked so far for me....getting our front and only worrying about lapped traffic.

Thanks Boudy for the info....

[GlennCMC70]

get the dayum radois Matt. :o
i too was not convinced it was necessary TILL i used them @ Mid Ohio. after the first use, i was sold. no question in my mind that this is a good thing. i'm also glad to see this is possibly going to become a required part of safety equipment.
@ the very least, you should rent a listen only set-up for the day to get a feel for it.
Guys, please give this a try. i cant tell how much safer i felt @ Mid Ohio by knowing that X corners up, there was a standing/waving yellow and where the car was sitting. or knowing turn X was oiled down BEFORE i get to it. being able to plan ahead and change your line for your own safety and the corner workers and disabled cars/drivers safety is well worth the low cost of this equipment. you cant touch other systems for what he is offering it to us @.

[Boudy]

Yep, you can expect it to be mandatory to monitor the SB for AI/CMC nationally in 07' and expect all classes to be mandatory in 08'. Outlaws and late models are already there as well as Legends at most tracks and others are following suit. At our level, without spotters, the safest way to be on the track is to use the corner workers as spotters and relay the info to drivers. I have not yet met a driver who didn't have some reservations prior to his first SB experience. I have also not yet met a driver who wants to go back on track with out it.

Believe me guys, Argent Lab could sell a radio to every AI/CMC car in the country tomorrow and I would not recover my investment. I started this first and foremost because of the need for it. I couldn't sleep at night knowing that the next guy got killed after I knew of a way to possibly, maybe, some how help and didn't push the issue. My primary customers are police and fire. When a radio doesn't work, someone could die. I take it serious.

Sure, I'll recover my investment in 2 or 3 years and maybe make money in 5. I did it because someone had to and I had the money this year to do it. If another driver never exits a blind corner to find a car sideways again, it will not be soon enough. Even if it's only 4 seconds notice, 2 seconds of brake may save someone's life. The driving force here is not money, profit, fame, or any of the other shit people may whisper. It's about saving the next guy's life. Period!

Now put the damn radio in your car.

Boudy

[Mike Bell]

Jeesh, are we pissing you off Boudy? :?:

[AI#97]

Jeesh, are we pissing you off Boudy? :?:

I wonder....however, I spent the $800 dollars for the hans earlier than required because I knew it would be working the moment I put it on. Not that the radios are a big investment.....I just don't have faith in the dedication to the broadcast yet. NASATX crews are already short handed so to add one more to the list to "officially" broadcast a SAFETY signal, it would take a dedicated person who is 1. radio savvy, 2. understands WHAT to say and HOW to say it and 3. is cleared by NASA's insurance to broadcast it.

No offense man, but I can't really justify the cost until NASA ponies up with a plan and committment. that is all.... we understand the need, want the technology and the safety....it just has to be supported by the guys running the show!

[Boudy]

Jeesh, are we pissing you off Boudy? :?:

No Mike, not at all. I am, however, very passionate about saving lives. It my job. My company, BCI in every project is tasked with implementing technology to save lives. Likewise, in every project, there is some know-it-all who stands up to proclaim that it won't work.

I have recently heard some rumblings that I have pushed this for profit motivated reasons. THAT PISSES ME OFF!!! I'll bill 1.5 million this year and I sell nothing but labor. Trust me, NASA doesn't have that many members. I'm obviously not doing this for profit.

Matt: No offense taken. You have your opinion, in fact, you have over 750 of them on this forum alone. However, just sit tight for a bit and put some faith in what you don't know. I couldn't sit here and tell you that monitoring the SB will be mandatory for AI/CMC next season if decisions weren't being made at the national level.

Boudy

[Mike Bell]

Hey Boudy, thanks for the call! See you in a week. :D

[AI#97]

Matt: No offense taken. You have your opinion, in fact, you have over 750 of them on this forum alone. However, just sit tight for a bit and put some faith in what you don't know. I couldn't sit here and tell you that monitoring the SB will be mandatory for AI/CMC next season if decisions weren't being made at the national level.

Boudy

Boudy, I spoke with Clifton at length about this at the show on Saturday and they are committed to having someone on the broadcast for the Houston event and beyond. It won't be him but "someone" will be on it.

that being the case, i would like to give it a try. I would like to rent a setup for me with earbud, and the cheapo head unit for a crew member in the stands relaying info to me. It is rather f'n loud in the car so please suggest the best setup for the helmet. Send me a PM on the cost of the rental.

Like I said, I think this is a great idea, I was just reluctant to invest till there was committment....and there is.

Thanks Boudy and Thanks Clifton. In the future, I might suggest more excitement and press release to the group for buy in.....then we can all get along! :wink:

[Mike Bell]

I enjoyed the radios this weekend. I thought we finally got things right in R4 with respect to "just enough info" being transmitted vs. R3 where we had a long long gap of silence. Nice job by all who worked to make this happen, was reassuring to have a calm voice saying "slow down people" a few times under that last double yellow.

Thanks Boudy and NASA TX for working out the kinks with us!! :D

[AI#97]

saying "slow down people" a few times under that last double yellow.



Guess I missed that one! :lol:

[marshall_mosty]

I agree with Mike. I'm really glad I had a radio. I think the information could have been repeated a couple times as we got close to the start/finish line. Just a suggestion.

[Rob Liebbe]

Some of my observations from the weekend:


I feel that the long double yellow could have been handled better by the officials. Namely if you want a specific pace, you need to get a pace car out there in the front of the field, not in the middle. He also had a chance to get in front of the lead group, but when the lead group came by and stopped to let the pace car in at turn 2, he waved us by and then got into the middle, confusing.

I feel that the drivers acted properly, understood the yellows around the track and were extra cautious in the vicinity of tow trucks and stuck cars.

Safety broadcating to the entire field has to be to the enitre field. If the competition car leading the yellow "parade" doesn't hear a message - he sets the pace unless other official communications are used - flags, hand waving, pace car, boards etc.

Also safety broadcasts would be better if given in a "repeat" format - just say it twice instead of once. If they aren't heard, they aren't any good.

I will continue to consider flag stations, pace cars and boards as my official communications, safety broadcast is additional information. The main reason for this is the time lag during the relay. Not that Clifton isn't "official". Maybe the radios should just recieve the corner workers directly.

Black Flagging: As we all know, I was black flagged during race 2 for not having my window net in place. Good job for the officials noting it, and correcting a potential danger. I appreciate it. However, the actual black flag given to me at start/finish was confusing. I never saw the flag pointed at me. I saw an open yellow and an open black - I thought the session was being black flagged - others around me were also confused. I also don't recall any other black flags around the track. In Race 3, a red Porsche in front of me got a black flag at start/finish and I was able to see the flagman's error. He was showing an open black flag until the car was about 30 feet away from the start/finish line and then pointed it down at the car as it went under. Too late, driver can't see it then.


My entire slightly off topic response is in the nature of improvement - not complaint.

[AI#97]

My entire slightly off topic response is in the nature of improvement - not complaint.

ditto on many of your responses...

I also would like to point out one funny thing from the weekend. When i was chasing dave irwin in race 3, there was a ton of mud on the track in 15/16 and while on the front straight, I made a gesture to the flagman of a waving flag....he showed Dave the passing flag...what I had hoped he would relay to the corner workers in gut check was the fact there was a crap load of mud all over the track that was going to surprise someone and they would display a debris flag! I just thought that was funny! :lol:

[Boudy]

This is the input we need for improvement.

1) It's been agreed from the beginning that the SB will not replace the flag and corner worker system that is the basis of what we have always and will always rely on. In fact, it should cause you to pay more attention to the flag stations going into an area because you know in advance that there was a problem there.

2) We are working on standard, clear, and repeated verbage.

3) It will be mandetory to listen next year. This is very important so we are all on the same page. I got passed under yellow in 3 after TC's spin in 16. The SB told 11 to return the position to 55. We'll, 11 didn't have a radio and thought I was passing him under yellow and passed me back so I just stayed there. No fault to no one, just a good situation that shows where the radios help us all know what's going on and the race run smoother.

4) We also found that it is best to just listen to the SB only. Scanning the SB while chatting amoung ourselves causes us to miss things that the SB is broadcasting.

Again, observations and comments are appreciated.

Boudy

[michaelmosty]

I got passed under yellow in 3 after TC's spin in 16. The SB told 11 to return the position to 55. We'll, 11 didn't have a radio and thought I was passing him under yellow and passed me back so I just stayed there.
Boudy

:oops:

[Rob Liebbe]

This is the input we need for improvement.

1) It's been agreed from the beginning that the SB will not replace the flag and corner worker system that is the basis of what we have always and will always rely on. In fact, it should cause you to pay more attention to the flag stations going into an area because you know in advance that there was a problem there.


3) It will be mandetory to listen next year. This is very important so we are all on the same page. I got passed under yellow in 3 after TC's spin in 16. The SB told 11 to return the position to 55. We'll, 11 didn't have a radio and thought I was passing him under yellow and passed me back so I just stayed there. No fault to no one, just a good situation that shows where the radios help us all know what's going on and the race run smoother.




Boudy

#1 and #3 seem to contradict each other. Seems like #11 should have recieved a black flag from corner stations to rectify the problem. they were the ones to report over their frequency and then rebroadcast by NASA, right? Seems like added complexity.

Why is it mandatory if it is not official? It does seem like good information can be had from the radios, but not a substitute for watching the corner workers like you are supposed to anyway. If #11 in this example was running a radio, and indeed heard the broadcast but did not follow the "unofficial" request to give back the position, should there be "official" repercussions? I think not. Official info comes from track workers and grid marshalls. Maybe that is where my confusion lies right now, having an official - like Clifton - running the unofficial safety broadcast.

The line between offical and informational seems a bit blurry right now and I for one feel that the two should be completely separate. I also feel that the safety broadcast should not be mandatory. I know these words may not be pleasant for everyone, but that's why they call it growing "pains".

Your Mileage May Vary

[Rob Liebbe]

This is the input we need for improvement.

1) It's been agreed from the beginning that the SB will not replace the flag and corner worker system that is the basis of what we have always and will always rely on. In fact, it should cause you to pay more attention to the flag stations going into an area because you know in advance that there was a problem there.


3) It will be mandetory to listen next year. This is very important so we are all on the same page. I got passed under yellow in 3 after TC's spin in 16. The SB told 11 to return the position to 55. We'll, 11 didn't have a radio and thought I was passing him under yellow and passed me back so I just stayed there. No fault to no one, just a good situation that shows where the radios help us all know what's going on and the race run smoother.




Boudy

#1 and #3 seem to contradict each other. Seems like #11 should have recieved a black flag from corner stations to rectify the problem. they were the ones to report over their frequency and then rebroadcast by NASA, right? Seems like added complexity.

Why is it mandatory if it is not official? It does seem like good information can be had from the radios, but not a substitute for watching the corner workers like you are supposed to anyway. If #11 in this example was running a radio, and indeed heard the broadcast but did not follow the "unofficial" request to give back the position, should there be "official" repercussions? I think not. Official info comes from track workers and grid marshalls. Maybe that is where my confusion lies right now, having an official - Clifton - running the unofficial safety broadcast.

The line between offical and informational seems a bit blurry right now and I for one feel that the two should be completely separate. I also feel that the safety broadcast should not be mandatory. I know these words may not be pleasant for everyone, but that's why they call it growing "pains".

Your Mileage May Vary

[Tex89]

I also feel that the safety broadcast should not be mandatory. Your Mileage May Vary

Your just a cheap bastard Rob. :D

[AI#97]

I also feel that the safety broadcast should not be mandatory. Your Mileage May Vary

Your just a cheap bastard Rob. :D

Actually Rob has a good point. Keep the safety broadcast to just that....items to be called out for safety. Official calls on course should be left up to the flags and race control. simple and clear leaving NO room for appeal...

[Boudy]

#1 and #3 seem to contradict each other. Seems like #11 should have recieved a black flag from corner stations to rectify the problem. they were the ones to report over their frequency and then rebroadcast by NASA, right? Seems like added complexity.

Why is it mandatory if it is not official? It does seem like good information can be had from the radios, but not a substitute for watching the corner workers like you are supposed to anyway. If #11 in this example was running a radio, and indeed heard the broadcast but did not follow the "unofficial" request to give back the position, should there be "official" repercussions? I think not. Official info comes from track workers and grid marshalls. Maybe that is where my confusion lies right now, having an official - Clifton - running the unofficial safety broadcast.

The line between offical and informational seems a bit blurry right now and I for one feel that the two should be completely separate. I also feel that the safety broadcast should not be mandatory. I know these words may not be pleasant for everyone, but that's why they call it growing "pains".

Your Mileage May Vary

Well, as grown-ups, we can agree to disagree and still sleep at night. That's what they say anyway... :roll: :lol:

Yes, we'll see some changes and experience some growing pains. You mentioned official vs informational and the heart of the SB is informational. My #1 states that the flags and the officials are in charge and that's, that's. Then, now, and into the future. Corner workers make mistakes and drivers miss flags, it is what it is but what it's not is a broken system. We're not changing it but adding to it. The ability to communicate verbally to every driver adds multiple benefits in additiion to safety. One benefit, as in my example, is the ability to line us up faster by forwarding information and allowing the event to run more smoothly as a whole. Keeping the 2 completely seperate would be very non-productive and a waste of compatible resources. Example: It would be more efficient for Clifton have the safety broadcaster tell a driver to drop back one position and drop the green to continue the race. The black flags will still wave and if they are ignored, it will be handled as it always has been. You are correct, his penalty is for ignoring the flag. The SB will help organization and efficientcy 10 fold, but let's be realistic and understand that nothing will fix everything.

You may not agree that it should be mandatory, but wouldn't it be pointless otherwise?

Boudy

[Rob Liebbe]

I also feel that the safety broadcast should not be mandatory. Your Mileage May Vary

Your just a cheap bastard Rob. :D

Maybe, but I will most likey buy a two channel system with crew radio from Boudy before next season.

[Todd Covini]

I got passed under yellow in 3 after TC's spin in 16. The SB told 11 to return the position to 55. We'll, 11 didn't have a radio and thought I was passing him under yellow and passed me back so I just stayed there.
Boudy

:oops:

:oops: :oops:

[Todd Covini]

I also feel that the safety broadcast should not be mandatory. Your Mileage May Vary

Your just a cheap bastard Rob. :D

Actually Rob has a good point. Keep the safety broadcast to just that....items to be called out for safety. Official calls on course should be left up to the flags and race control. simple and clear leaving NO room for appeal...

I agree with Matt. Safety broadcast should be just that. It was disappointing to not hear the "Mornings with Jeff & Glenn" broadcast like we had at Ohio, but I still found the "Howard Stern" impressions Jeff was broadcasting to be entertaining. <<"Wassamatta...your radio broken"...when the scheduled race start didn't happen on L1>>

[Rob Liebbe]

[

You may not agree that it should be mandatory, but wouldn't it be pointless otherwise?

Boudy

I don't think it would be pointless, just adventageous to those who use it. Besides, how will the "mandatory" aspect be enforced?

It'll all work out in the end and be a good thing I'm sure.

[Boudy]

[

You may not agree that it should be mandatory, but wouldn't it be pointless otherwise?

Boudy

I don't think it would be pointless, just adventageous to those who use it. Besides, how will the "mandatory" aspect be enforced?

It'll all work out in the end and be a good thing I'm sure.

Advantageous? I'll play devils advocate for a moment. Say 12 of us changed our line due to oil on the track that the SB told us about. Now, 1 of the 3 dipshits who chose not to listen drives through it and spins, hopefully collecting only himself, causing a yellow. Now we all lose track time waiting to fish his ass out of the tires. Who's advantage was it? I think, no one's. In fact, I hit the oil in 16 that put Corey into the mud and almost hit him because I was over on channel 3 chit chatting and not listening to the SB. I think it's pointless because if there is 1 guy on track who doesn't have the information needed to provide a higher level of safety on the track, then we gain no safety benefit at all.

As for enforcement, who knows? If they use it to line us up in grid, or as JB was quoted this weekend, "Having our parking contest", it would be pretty obvious if you are not tuned in.


Official calls on course should be left up to the flags and race control. simple and clear leaving NO room for appeal...

Please explain this to me. How does adding a voice promt to the flags not decrease room for appeal? Not only did the jackass get flagged, he was told as well. :?: :?: No matter what we do, somebody will screw up down the road and it won't be his fault. (like that ever happens... :roll: ) I believe however, that when we're done here, NASA's SB will be the model by which all others are structured. NASA events will be safer and run more smoothly than any in the country and AI/CMC did its part to help. Wow, just think if they entrusted Spec Pinatas with the task. :roll: :lol:

Boudy

[Boudy]

My entire slightly off topic response is in the nature of improvement - not complaint.

ditto on many of your responses...

Note: Bullshit, sarcasm, and wise-ass programs deactivated.

I'd like to add that we are all on the same page here.

A mandatory SB is in the future of every series. Some already do it and some can't figure out the logistics. Either way, they are all discussing it. So, remember the old saying, "Be careful what you ask for..." If we don't use disscussion to test and challenge our ideas, then we'll drop the ball and wind up with some half assed, horse shit SB that can't do anything for keeping another one of us from being killed. If we lose 1 guy from now to forever, it will be 1 too many.

So with that said, if a SB has even a remote chance to save a life...

Keep it coming!

Bullshit, sarcasm, and wise-ass programs reactivated.

Boudy

[jeffburch]

Enforcement is easy.
One of the grid valets walks up, checks your hood pins and says a number between 1 and 4.
You hold up that many fingers.

jb

[oz98cobra]

While I think the SB is a good thing, I do think that making it mandatory for 07 is way premature - either at NASA TX events, or NASA in general - it needs to gain more momentum amongst series and regions next year, and perhaps look to 08 before it becomes mandatory equipment?

Not only do the NASA officials need to get better at broadcasting, but many teams need time to integrate it with their existing systems.

IMO, the SB is an adjunct to the tried and true communications methods using flags and hand signals that have been in use for decades - and it always will be because radios have a nasty tendency to fail - often when you need them most (for example I accidently pulled the earpiece towards the end of race 3 last weekend). I also feel that the SB always need to be able to coexist with a team's two way system using a dedicated spotter if they choose to use such a system.

I'll be talking to Boudy about sourcing a system that can do both for me for next season.