NEW Rules

[JMR81]

NASA Texas Supplemental Rules Version 1.1

These rules supersede the CCR where there’s a conflict:

Racers and Time Trial (This does not apply to HPDE)

1. Any competitor’s first offense of a pass made under a single standing , waving, or double yellow will result in the usual penalties per the CCR. A second offense will result in a 2 race suspension, as well as the usual penalties. A third offence will result in a license suspension.

2. Drivers with a provisional license must present their Provisional License booklet to the Race Director at, or before, the 1st driver’s meeting.

3. Drivers need to check their grid space number before heading to Grid for Race sessions.

4. Drivers /Teams are responsible to make sure their data with T&S is correct before the end of the event on Sunday. Data such as member # or Team #, or class which is critical for points calculation, will not be changed after the event.

5. Effective June 1, 2017; All Racers are required to run at least one forward facing video camera that is operational and practical that records in digital format immediately viewable in windows media player. All cars must record every session including practice, qualifying, and races. NASA Race Directors will use footage as necessary. Drivers may retain video for personal use only under limited license. Posting videos online for non-commercial use is permissible. Lack of available video when requested may result in a fine and/or loss of track time. This is not applicable to Time Trial.

6. All Race Groups and Time Trial will have one weekend worth of drops for season points.

[Fbody383]

5. Effective June 1, 2017; All Racers are required to run at least one forward facing video camera that is operational and practical that records in digital format immediately viewable in windows media player. All cars must record every session including practice, qualifying, and races. NASA Race Directors will use footage as necessary. Drivers may retain video for personal use only under limited license. Posting videos online for non-commercial use is permissible. Lack of available video when requested may result in a fine and/or loss of track time. This is not applicable to Time Trial.

a.)Or what?
b.)What are the required formats - b/w or color, resolution, frame rate?
c.) Where the license language?

Is there some more color on the drivers for this?

Not sure I like the "mandatory" implications in an amateur series.

On edit: Would have been nice to put a News heading on the NASA TX site instead of just in the Forms/Rules section.

[mach1]

a.)Or what?
b.)What are the required formats - b/w or color, resolution, frame rate?
c.) Where the license language?

Is there some more color on the drivers for this?

Not sure I like the "mandatory" implications in an amateur series.

On edit: Would have been nice to put a News heading on the NASA TX site instead of just in the Forms/Rules section.

I'm good here, I record every race at 320x240, 1fps, 16 color.
So we don't own our own video anymore?

[mach1]

On edit: Would have been nice to put a News heading on the NASA TX site instead of just in the Forms/Rules section.

Agreed.

[drecords]

NASA Texas Supplemental Rules Version 1.1

These rules supersede the CCR where there’s a conflict:

Racers and Time Trial (This does not apply to HPDE)

1. Any competitor’s first offense of a pass made under a single standing , waving, or double yellow will result in the usual penalties per the CCR. A second offense will result in a 2 race suspension, as well as the usual penalties. A third offence will result in a license suspension.

2. Drivers with a provisional license must present their Provisional License booklet to the Race Director at, or before, the 1st driver’s meeting.

3. Drivers need to check their grid space number before heading to Grid for Race sessions.

4. Drivers /Teams are responsible to make sure their data with T&S is correct before the end of the event on Sunday. Data such as member # or Team #, or class which is critical for points calculation, will not be changed after the event.

5. Effective June 1, 2017; All Racers are required to run at least one forward facing video camera that is operational and practical that records in digital format immediately viewable in windows media player. All cars must record every session including practice, qualifying, and races. NASA Race Directors will use footage as necessary. Drivers may retain video for personal use only under limited license. Posting videos online for non-commercial use is permissible. Lack of available video when requested may result in a fine and/or loss of track time. This is not applicable to Time Trial.

6. All Race Groups and Time Trial will have one weekend worth of drops for season points.

I agree with this on everything except this statement "Drivers may retain video for personal use only under limited license. Posting videos online for non-commercial use is permissible."

If it's my camera in my racecar, isn't it my property to do whatever I want with?

Anyone someone with some legal knowledge can enlighten me on why they wrote this rule that way??

[mach1]

I agree with this on everything except this statement "Drivers may retain video for personal use only under limited license. Posting videos online for non-commercial use is permissible."

If it's my camera in my racecar, isn't it my property to do whatever I want with?

Anyone someone with some legal knowledge can enlighten me on why they wrote this rule that way??

Yeah, I was wondering the same thing. So if I send my video to Winding Road, they cannot use it for promotion?

[nasawill]

Yeah, I was wondering the same thing. So if I send my video to Winding Road, they cannot use it for promotion?

Hey folks,

Sorry for the confusion here. I wrote the rule based on the Membership terms from the CCR.

From the CCR:
1.3.2 Membership – Terms and Conditions
... All members agree to accept occasional announcements pertaining to NASA related activities or offers via mail or email. Note: NASA does not sell, lend, or give-away any information about any member to sources outside of NASA (except to authorities upon demand) for any commercial purpose. Furthermore, all NASA members agree that any and all video footage and / or still photographs may be held by the NASA administration for certain purposes such as accident investigation.
In exchange for being allowed entry into a facility or access to any other location where a NASA event is taking place, all members and all attendees at NASA events agree that NASA owns and retains all rights and copyrights to all images and sound recordings obtained at NASA events, captured by any form of recording device, using any media such as (but not limited to) film, magnetic tapes, memory cards, and hard disk drives, unless superseded by written contract.

So I wrote our supplemental rule with this in mind. With that said, as far and as much as I can remember this is simply to keep 1) Really gruesome stuff from wrecks from circling which IMO is good practice and 2) Full on commercial usage without NASA consent, which I believe is standard practice in many businesses. So don’t expect me or my staff to come after your video unless it’s extremely inappropriate, or it’s filmed for non-NASA commercial use beyond the normal uses we all have for our on-board video.

Also, I've got the 2017 Supp regs posted as a news item on nasatx.com and will be sure to include it in our upcoming mass emails...

[Fbody383]

In exchange for being allowed entry into a facility or access to any other location where a NASA event is taking place, all members and all attendees at NASA events agree that NASA owns and retains all rights and copyrights to all images and sound recordings obtained at NASA events, captured by any form of recording device, using any media such as (but not limited to) film, magnetic tapes, memory cards, and hard disk drives, unless superseded by written contract. Not a Texas lawyer, but pretty sure an attendee is not covered by the CCR. Is this language in the regular visitor waiver?

Will, appreciate the feedback - just feels like a shot out of nowhere.

[mach1]

Hey folks,

Sorry for the confusion here. I wrote the rule based on the Membership terms from the CCR.

From the CCR:
1.3.2 Membership – Terms and Conditions
... All members agree to accept occasional announcements pertaining to NASA related activities or offers via mail or email. Note: NASA does not sell, lend, or give-away any information about any member to sources outside of NASA (except to authorities upon demand) for any commercial purpose. Furthermore, all NASA members agree that any and all video footage and / or still photographs may be held by the NASA administration for certain purposes such as accident investigation.
In exchange for being allowed entry into a facility or access to any other location where a NASA event is taking place, all members and all attendees at NASA events agree that NASA owns and retains all rights and copyrights to all images and sound recordings obtained at NASA events, captured by any form of recording device, using any media such as (but not limited to) film, magnetic tapes, memory cards, and hard disk drives, unless superseded by written contract.

So I wrote our supplemental rule with this in mind. With that said, as far and as much as I can remember this is simply to keep 1) Really gruesome stuff from wrecks from circling which IMO is good practice and 2) Full on commercial usage without NASA consent, which I believe is standard practice in many businesses. So don’t expect me or my staff to come after your video unless it’s extremely inappropriate, or it’s filmed for non-NASA commercial use beyond the normal uses we all have for our on-board video.

Also, I've got the 2017 Supp regs posted as a news item on nasatx.com and will be sure to include it in our upcoming mass emails...

Welcome to the forums, thanks for the info.

[39PitCrew]

Not a Texas lawyer, but pretty sure an attendee is not covered by the CCR. Is this language in the regular visitor waiver?

Will, appreciate the feedback - just feels like a shot out of nowhere.

So I guess all of the several thousand pictures I've taken in the last five or six years
aren't actually mine. Don't think I've ever signed anything saying I acknowledge or
agree to those terms. (Sorry, couldn't figure out a way to say that where it doesn't
come out sounding really snarky). I'm just an amateur photographer trying to
improve my craft, an occasional mechanic and diehard car guy looking to hang out
with a great bunch of folks.

[mach1]

I think it's mostly "cover ya ass" verbiage, the only thing that will likely affect us is the requirement for video cameras, which I think is probably a good thing. My GoPro has been acting up lately and sometimes I forget to turn it on, I may be shopping "dash cams" now. Something like this, set it and forget it.
https://www.amazon.com/AUTO-VOX-Dashboard-Recorder-G-Sensor-operation/dp/B01LZZDY35/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1482532588&sr=8-4&keywords=wifi+dash+cam

[GlennCMC70]

If I am required to run video for all sessions, you just lost me as a member.
Any video I record is mine. You want video, supply the system and personel to keep it charged and turned on.

I have run video and will in the future. It will always be secondary to car prep, driver prep and social aspects of racing.

Sounds like a stupid rule.

[marshall_mosty]

Guys,
This has been out there for a while, whether or not everyone realized it was in the CCR is for each of us to answer personally. I don't think Will is going to ask us to surrender anything as long as we keep doing what we have done so far (last 12+ years).

Will,
I would challenge the running forward facing video as being mandatory is pretty stiff. What happens if the battery dies mid-session? What happens if I run out of memory on the SD card? What if I forgot to hit "record"??

[marshall_mosty]

Guys,
This has been out there for a while, whether or not everyone realized it was in the CCR is for each of us to answer personally. I don't think Will is going to ask us to surrender anything as long as we keep doing what we have done so far (last 12+ years).

Will,
I would challenge the running forward facing video as being mandatory is pretty stiff. What happens if the battery dies mid-session? What happens if I run out of memory on the SD card? What if I forgot to hit "record"??

[RichardP]

The camera rule sounds good on the surface. When something bad does happen, it's way easier to figure out what happened with good video. Realistically, in application, it will be a complete shit show. Here are a couple of quotes I picked up in a brief search of this site:


Race 3
The rear view didn't turn out as good as I would have liked. Will get R2 and R4 uploaded tonight. For some reason R1 didn't get recorded.


Damn, nice work getting that posted so quickly, I didn't get any video at all from the weekend, with all of the car issues, I loaded my camera up for R3 and it wasn't reading my SD card.


Race 3 (forgot to start recording for the start)


My battery won't hold a charge. Got approx 1:47 total, so basically just the grid... Trying to find a replacement for TWS.


Epic video fail for me this weekend, forgot my cam on Sat, and ran out of batt on Sunday.


Here is a whopping 1 minute of fame that I took during R3. Completely forgot to charge the camera for Saturday, so missed the drama between me and Ian.


Good thing camera refused to work so I don't have video of everybody passing me at ease.


R1
Video ended short for some reason.


gopro crapped out on me. only got 1/2 of R2, half of R3, and a sliver of R4. It would just stop recording.
online investigation suggests reformatting the SDcard before each event. dunno.


Reliably getting all races on video is really tough, especially if you are a single person operation. Josh tried to record video from his first event. I think he got a couple of laps and quite a bit of footage of his open hood in the paddock before the whole thing crapped out on him. I hope this rule quickly goes the way of mandatory in car radios, which also seemed like a good idea on the surface...


Richard P.

[nasawill]

So I guess all of the several thousand pictures I've taken in the last five or six years
aren't actually mine. Don't think I've ever signed anything saying I acknowledge or
agree to those terms. (Sorry, couldn't figure out a way to say that where it doesn't
come out sounding really snarky). I'm just an amateur photographer trying to
improve my craft, an occasional mechanic and diehard car guy looking to hang out
with a great bunch of folks.

Not at all the case. NASA events are the perfect place for you to be doing anything like you mention, and we're happy to have you. But if you want to get into the business selling your images, we would have to come to an agreement is all. And thats standard practice for any track or sanctioning body.

See you at the track!

[nasawill]

If I am required to run video for all sessions, you just lost me as a member.
Any video I record is mine. You want video, supply the system and personel to keep it charged and turned on.

I have run video and will in the future. It will always be secondary to car prep, driver prep and social aspects of racing.

Sounds like a stupid rule.

We have something that is without a doubt for the greater good of any driver that could potentially be involved in an incident. I think most can buy into that. Using video is the most fair and reasonable way to assess fault in most situations.

[nasawill]

Guys,
This has been out there for a while, whether or not everyone realized it was in the CCR is for each of us to answer personally. I don't think Will is going to ask us to surrender anything as long as we keep doing what we have done so far (last 12+ years).

Will,
I would challenge the running forward facing video as being mandatory is pretty stiff. What happens if the battery dies mid-session? What happens if I run out of memory on the SD card? What if I forgot to hit "record"??


I agree 1) it sucks to be forced to purchase anything, no matter how much it might cost, 2) it adds to your between session check list and that can suck, and 3) being penalized for a camera stopping or maybe never starting to record sucks. I think I have reasonable solutions to all the issues.

1) Tyler already found what appears to be a very inexpensive solution with the auto start function. The best GoPro of al of them IMO happens to be the cheapest one, the Session. It's $199 and can be setup for one button mode, and can also run off the remote you can mount to the dash (another $79).

2) With the amount of time we spend at several events debating fault for incidents, I think it's very practical to ask everybody, for the greater good, to spend 5-10 minutes of that between session time to make sure a camera with a fresh battery and empty/formatted SD card is ready to go.

3) We're never going to be on the hunt to penalize somebody for not recording. We just want incidents to be easier to review. Video is the best way to do that. Someone will only be penalized if we request their video to review an incident and it cannot be produced. Without penalty, someone with a video that could save your butt could be one of the "it didn't record" types that just doesn't want to give up the video for whatever many reasons some people don't want to share their video..

It sounds like the one issue people like the least is the messing with the camera between sessions. What if I revised the rule to only require recording for the Races and not practice/qual? Would you guys be for or against that? Someone could still run and share video that wanted to, but no penalty for not running video in a non-race session. What say ye? Remember, video can save your butt as much much as it can do you in wether its passing under yellow or getting collected by someone else....

[nasawill]

The camera rule sounds good on the surface. When something bad does happen, it's way easier to figure out what happened with good video. Realistically, in application, it will be a complete shit show. Here are a couple of quotes I picked up in a brief search of this site:




















Reliably getting all races on video is really tough, especially if you are a single person operation. Josh tried to record video from his first event. I think he got a couple of laps and quite a bit of footage of his open hood in the paddock before the whole thing crapped out on him. I hope this rule quickly goes the way of mandatory in car radios, which also seemed like a good idea on the surface...


Richard P.

I completely understand. We're not looking to crucify anybody that has a video issue. We just want the most fair way possible to determine faults, and that often takes multiple angles. I've had camera issues as well. There's a few interesting solutions out there like auto-start cameras and remotes/buttons connected to cameras on the dash that will help alleviate some of this for folks who take it serious.

[AI#97]

I hereby claim I will have a video issue in every session I ever run. NASA gets the shitty camaera with the busted lense. I get the 4k video in non-windows format. Will, the rule is going to be a shit show just as mentioned elsewhere. I highly suggest you make it optional or highly suggested for all racers and mandatory for racers with more than 3 pts on their license for infractions which the video is looking to catch.

[GlennCMC70]

We have something that is without a doubt for the greater good of any driver that could potentially be involved in an incident. I think most can buy into that. Using video is the most fair and reasonable way to assess fault in most situations.
Put your efforts into the penalty portion of the rules instead of new rules.

Lots of driver's record to protect themselves whether they admit to that being the reason or not. But forcing me to do so steps over a line. We don't earn a living from this. So there should be no incentive to play dirty.
You have single handedly penalized every driver, even those who have never had contact.

[GlennCMC70]

It sounds like the one issue people like the least is the messing with the camera between sessions. What if I revised the rule to only require recording for the Races and not practice/qual? Would you guys be for or against that? Someone could still run and share video that wanted to, but no penalty for not running video in a non-race session. What say ye? Remember, video can save your butt as much much as it can do you in wether its passing under yellow or getting collected by someone else....

The issue I have is the being penalized for not having video. As I said, most guys run it for thier own self defense. To make it manditory and subject to penalty if when needed is not available is bs.

This is not the ameture racing series I came to in 2005. Next we will be required to carry data loggers of your choosing and all data must be turned in for platform parity adjustments. Sounds like SCCA. I was shocked when World Challenge started that requirement, and that was leaps and bounds above this level.
Will NASA be the next organization that rules the fun out of racing? Who within NASA will leave over stuff like this and create a fun and cheap place to race? Sounds like how NASA came to life. Now NASA is becoming what drove folks away from where they were to create NASA.

[AllZWay]

This is an extremely stupid rule. I have had many camera failures and missed stuff I wanted to see. How are they going to police legitimate failures?

Since I am not currently racing.. I guess it doesn't matter.

[Fbody383]

We just want incidents to be easier to review. Video is the best way to do that. Someone will only be penalized if we request their video to review an incident and it cannot be produced. Without penalty, someone with a video that could save your butt could be one of the "it didn't record" types that just doesn't want to give up the video for whatever many reasons some people don't want to share their video..

It sounds like the one issue people like the least is the messing with the camera between sessions. What if I revised the rule to only require recording for the Races and not practice/qual? Would you guys be for or against that? Someone could still run and share video that wanted to, but no penalty for not running video in a non-race session. What say ye? Remember, video can save your butt as much much as it can do you in wether its passing under yellow or getting collected by someone else.... The bold text highlights the point - it could be third person video that somebody wants/needs. I have fewer concerns about the "bad event" issues that hardly ever happen than the impact on 200 race cars that must run video aspect. On it's face, "forward facing" gets you 20 minutes of the front of the spare tire well.

I'd rather see the camera thing in the "highly recommended" part of rules.

Or, if "we" must, identify and tier the penalties toward being responsible for an incident and not having video perhaps carrying more penalty. Or as Matt mentioned, are there folks whose car control/race craft is sufficiently suspect to warrant video? If it is, then their Race Director should be reviewing some of it with them regularly.

[Fbody383]

Hey Will, start a thread in the Texas section on the NASA forum site to get a broader review from the rest of the folks.

[JMR81]

If they want to provide the sim cards for the camera great , if not then no thanks.
If they want to make something mandatory to improve the the product then why not something like the RaceCeiver. One way comunication to each car from race control, each unit cost $99.00. We used them in another series and they worked great for communicatinng with the cars, makes getting grids packed up for starts, especially those cars that cannot seem to figure out how to close the gap on the start or restart. Imediatiate notification of a flag violation, or immediate notifcation of an on track incident, safety car, emergency vehicle, black flag, red flag, yelow flag. As inexpensive as they are NASA could purchase enough to lease for the weekend they could pay for themselves the first weekend. There might be a few bugs to work out at some ofthe longer tracks, but for most of the tracks were at they should work fine. if you already have a radio then your crew guys use it to monitor the freq and pass along the information. weve had ours for about 10 years still works great. imho keeping the drivers informed about the on track situation is far more important than requiring a video to prove something did or didn't happen a particular way. Most of us run video anyway so its still available if its needed for review.

[GlennCMC70]

I was just about to make the same post.
Mandate safety equipment.

[GlennCMC70]

Also - I read into some of what was said above.
Is there a concern that a driver was behind an incident and has that on video and will claim to not have it to protect the at fault driver? If so, I find that highly offensive.

[dtanker65]

RaceCeiver sounds like something worth looking at. Radio from the observer is a big help in maintaining situational awareness, but not always practical, especially for a one man show. The observer needs to be really good to keep from being a distraction. The idea of race control being able talk to the field sounds good too but too much chatter and drivers will tune it out.

I have not seen bad sportsmanship thus far with the group, a win is a win, but I don't think anybody cares about a win unless it was achieved on equal terms with the other drivers. Driver/Car/Preparation are the criteria.

I have been a fly on the wall watching Will review video to judge a contact. He is a straight up race driver in that role. I think this video debate is getting out of proportion, most of us run video and we would gladly give it up if it helps to figure out what had happened if somebody comes to grief.

What about at the race director's discretion, clamping a Nasa owned GoPro into the cars of drivers with speeding tickets or at random?

[marshall_mosty]

All,
I have been involved with multiple IRB's and having several cars worth of video has been critical in determining exactly what happened. Sometimes even after seeing two videos and "having your mind made up" only to have a clearer third video surface that overturns the whole IRB "prelim" findings.

Think of it like NFL and the challenge rule of video vs the ref's on the field.

I agree that everyone needs to run video to help in these situations, but personally disagree that a penalty should be assessed due to a failure to record the entire outlay, race, cook down lap...

[GlennCMC70]

All,
I have been involved with multiple IRB's and having several cars worth of video has been critical in determining exactly what happened. Sometimes even after seeing two videos and "having your mind made up" only to have a clearer third video surface that overturns the whole IRB "prelim" findings.

Think of it like NFL and the challenge rule of video vs the ref's on the field.

I agree that everyone needs to run video to help in these situations, but personally disagree that a penalty should be assessed due to a failure to record the entire outlay, race, cook down lap...
Then you seem to be in agreement with most who have posted.

[Al Fernandez]

what is the problem that is being solved here? Poor decision quality due to inaccurate information? If that is the case then shouldn't it be up to those that feel they have been shorted or are afraid they will be shorted to protect themselves by having good or even multiple cameras?

[Fbody383]

Think of it like NFL and the challenge rule of video vs the ref's on the field. Not the right analogy. A pro-series recording for broadcast, etc., etc., would be more analogous.


I agree that everyone needs to run video to help in these situations, but personally disagree that a penalty should be assessed due to a failure to record the entire outlay, race, cook down lap... Which is it; everyone NEEDS to run or SHOULD/COULD run a camera? I perceive a difference depending on which hat - Series Director or racer - you have on.


"Effective January 1, 2018 all racing vehicles will provide an autonomous drone chase cam, recording continuously in color at no less than 1080P which will remain within 50' of the vehicle, at a height no less than 20' above the track surface, beginning with the 'group on grid' command by Race Control and ending with the 'group checker' command. Cars failing to maintain a chase drone for the entire session will be repositioned to last in the order they become non-compliant. An event cloud service storage URL will be provided by the Organizer not less than one week prior to the event and competitors are to upload video for each session a)immediately after a session if involved in contact, b) no later than 3 calendar days after the last day of the event otherwise. Failure to provide required video will result in a reposition to last place with a subsequent adjustment of any contingencies. If multiple competitors fail to furnish the required video, they will remain in their original finishing order upon being repositioned to last place unless repositioned for other causes."

I did a quick scan of BMWCCA/SCCA/PCA and don't find a similar camera "must run" requirement.

[mach1]

I say AICMC protests this rule by not running any cameras, we can sort out the track issues with fist fights! Then we can promote the event as a racing/MMA party weekend.

In all seriousness, I wonder what we can do to encourage cams without penalizing folks, like Glenn said, getting the car on track will take priority to setting up cameras.
Maybe if you run a cam, you get to cut the folks in the dinner line :)
I have always looked at running a cam as insurance, if something happens or I forget, it's on me, and I will have to accept the fact that I don't have any evidence to dispute xyz.
Craig and I had a situation in NOLA that was interesting, his camera was washed out and it looked like the corner worker wasn't holding a flag, my video showed that they did in fact have the flag.
I also learned at ECR a few years ago that I can't rely on my memory and need video to back up anything, I slightly hit a car nose to nose, after the race in impound I said no way I hit him nose to nose, of course I would have remembered that, I hit him in the rear, sure enough I pulled the video and we were nose to nose, my eyes were likely trying to find a way to miss him and I didn't even realize we were face to face.

I am tired of the gopro BS shuffle, I am going to drop $100 on a set it and forget it dash cam and hopefully I don't have to think about video all weekend.

[rleng1]

In the RM region we are required to run cameras, and reminded to do so at every drivers meeting. No penalties have ever been accessed to my knowledge. We all like seeing in car videos anyway.
I feel that the OIF racing team should be the dedicated camera car with several cameras front and back, they never win anyway.
With this new penalty and Tyler's camera mis functions last year, does this make Craig the CMC champ for 2016?
See you at COTA.

[BADVENM]

NASA Rocky Mountain does not "require" cameras. Its highly "suggested" that we run cameras.

[marshall_mosty]

I perceive a difference depending on which hat - Series Director or racer - you have on.

Dave,
I have to wear both, which is difficult. I can fundamentally disagree with a rule, but then have to enforce it. I'm still talking with Will about what his thoughts were on the penalty structure for the mandatory cameras. I'll give everyone an update this evening.

[Fbody383]

NASA Rocky Mountain does not "require" cameras. Its highly "suggested" that we run cameras.


I can fundamentally disagree with a rule, but then have to enforce it. I'm fine with that.



2. INTENT
The intent of the Camaro Mustang Challenge (CMC) racing series is to provide National Auto Sport
Association (NASA) members a racing series featuring production American pony cars. Modifications will be
limited to those necessary to promote safety, close competition, and flexibility to enable drivers to learn and
experiment with the principles of race car setup within boundaries intended to limit expenses, thereby
providing the drivers with fun, exciting, and challenging yet approachable racing.
Good sportsmanship is valued more than finishing position. This means clean, well-executed passing is a
trademark of the series. Punting another competitor, or leaning on them to gain a position will not be
tolerated. Car to car contact including bump drafting can result in an investigation and possible sanctions. I'm still with Glenn and Al - what is it we're trying to solve? If there are issues with a driver, let's address that directly but just treat everybody the same.

I run video as much for the ability to share as the record in case there is an incident. Somewhere since I started the idea of "limiting expense" got redefined. I don't want to be forced to budget the time and money to have to run a camera.

And I'll miss OE at COTA; how wide is his car at that track?

[GlennCMC70]

Once manditory, has anyone considered the available resources needed to keep these things charged?
MSR-C and MSR-H are very outlet limited.
TWS is as well as few of the outlets at the garages work.
Hallett - right. Good luck there as well.

What is the typical racer head count? 150? Got 150 outlets available at any track?

[dtanker65]

Charging can probably be handled, this may be an insurance issue. We are getting to race on a premier formula one track next year....

[marshall_mosty]

I'm sure there are enough of us with portable power (jump boxes, inverters, etc) to help out. I try and have two fully charged batteries at the beginning of the weekend.

I did speak with Will for about 20 minutes on this subject tonight and we are working together to re-draft the supplement to further explain the new requirements and how they will be implemented, and enforced.

Stay tuned...

[GlennCMC70]

My position will not change as long as there is a penalty attached for not being able to produce video when requested.

[rleng1]

So now I assume out of region racers will need to have cameras to comply, even though their home region only recommends the use of in-car cameras. Thought NASA was National.

[Supercharged111]

Charging has never been a problem for me, I used to plug it into my truck until I put a deep cycle and inverter in the trailer. I did have an issue with my memory card corrupting a shit load of videos. I got screwed out of some real good footage from that. It's always been my understanding that you run the camera to protect yourself, i.e. if you can't prove it wasn't your fault then it is (if you're the one passing and nobody has footage). That new 360 camera looks pretty sweet and is creeping up on my wishlist. I had an incident this year that a rear facing camera would have been able to clear right up so there's my motivation.

[nasawill]

Let me go back a little and explain why this started.

There's a couple regions that have already mandated cameras and I see it sometime soon becoming a national rule. NorCal and NorthEast have this rule already. NorCal has done it for the last 5 years now.

When things like this gain traction they eventually become national rules. Me wanting our region to be an early adopter of this is to let us relay back practical feedback to the national rule writers about how these things should be rolled out. Being early adopters helps let us provide feedback for how this should handled. I like to be in early on things like this for this reason.

As of today I've pinged our national director list and have lots of feedback already sent back and forth with the powers the be at the national office and with all the other regions to help implement this. I've voiced every single concern mentioned on this thread. I appreciate all of you who provided realistic feedback that will help shape this into what I believe is a very reasonable step moving forward.

With all the many things that we do to our cars between sessions I don't think that adding 5-10 minutes a day to manage camera batteries and memory cards is too much to ask. There's hours worth of changes and setup and repair and maintenance we already do and I understand that is what we all focus on, but making this a rule is the only reasonable way to get everybody on board.

We will never randomly spot check for video, we'll only request it if you were in or near an incident, and if you don't have it then we'll apply the rule. I'll try to get this spelled out in the rule.

To sum up, we will implement this at least regionally in in Texas for 2017. I will continue to take input here as well as continue to work with the other Regional Directors to re-draft the rule as clearly as possible. I hope this helps. Happy New Years to you all, I'll be back on here next week with an update!

PS I had a really cool setup in my SE30 that had a button on the dash wired to the go pro and another cable that kept the go pro powered so all I had to do was swap out memory cards every session and push the start button leaving pre-grid. Very low cost, and super convenient in this case. I'm not sure if anything after the Hero2 is setup for this, but the newer cameras have wireless remotes which are awesome. Also, the last couple times I drove in the 25 hour we had hard wired power to our GoPros.

[GlennCMC70]

Your going to have to at least protect the camera owner from failures of the equipment or software. If they made an attempt to capture the session, they should be released from penalties.
Still think this is a dumb rule.

I think the driver of this is cases were video was available for review but the owner of the video reported there was no video.

A lack of integrity by a few should not result in something that affects everyone.

[BADVENM]

If this rule goes through how long must we have any potential video available? Can it be deleted at the conclusion of the weekend or any video from a Saturday be deleted at the end of the day so the storage devices are fresh for Sunday? Will it be like the protest form or contact form where its limited to 30 minutes (contact form I think), etc?

[Pranav]

On a personal aside, I think it's barbaric and dumb that in the age of ubiquitous and cheap car USB chargers, iphones, and wifi everything, that we still have to keep manually pulling our cameras to charge them and unload the SD cards, and have to give GoPro $400+ to get half of those features only to have the camera fail or crap out. I'm too lazy/busy to keep messing with a camera between every session thus I have very little footage of my past 4 years in CMC, and whenever I did it would be with a crappy Kodak playsport I stole from my dad.

I'm going to research a cheap option to keep a camera mounted and wired/charged full time and have it dump its data once a wifi enable device of some sort is within range once I pull into the paddock.

I'm thinking this camera and a cheap android tablet dedicated for race day use:
https://www.amazon.com/AKASO-EK5000-Waterproof-Camcorder-Rechargeable/dp/B01HGM31C8/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1483475955&sr=8-2&keywords=akaso+camera

I'd drill a hole in the side of the waterproof case and run a usb cable to a charger permanently. Just need to figure out how to incorporate a large storage device into all of this.

[Wade]

Ditch the GoPro junk! The only thing GoPro is good at is marketing. I used a Drift for five years and never lost a file due to corruption or whatever crap issues GoPro's have. Ideally, I wanted something that would stay mounted in the car, run off the cigarette lighter, and start/stop capture upon a GPS/gyro signal of motion. That way there is no forgetting to turn it on. So, it is $300 for a nice camera plus your work/time, or $1,000+ to step up into the next level.

https://us.driftinnovation.com/collections/cameras-new

[marshall_mosty]

Ditch the GoPro junk! The only thing GoPro is good at is marketing. I used a Drift for five years and never lost a file due to corruption or whatever crap issues GoPro's have. Ideally, I wanted something that would stay mounted in the car, run off the cigarette lighter, and start/stop capture upon a GPS/gyro signal of motion. That way there is no forgetting to turn it on. So, it is $300 for a nice camera plus your work/time, or $1,000+ to step up into the next level.

https://us.driftinnovation.com/collections/cameras-new


I'm on my 10th season with a Drift170. Never lost a file. Cheap batteries are available on Ebay, as are extra chargers.

[Pranav]

I think I'm going to try this one for MSRH and let you guys know how it works. Cheap Wifi enabled Gopro knockoff that is reviewed better and more popular than the actual Gopro on Amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/AKASO-EK7000-Waterproof-Rechargeable-Kits-Black/dp/B01HGM33HG

Maybe after MSRH I'll try rig up a tablet with the camera app and portable hard drive to try out the semi-automatic data dump idea so I don't have to keep pulling the SD card.

[dtanker65]

I bought the ridiculously expensive Aim camera because it integrates with the Solo and it has telemetry displayed on the video. It starts automatically when the car is turned on and shuts off in 5 minutes if it doesn't move. One 32G card is good for the whole weekend. It has turned out better than I thought it would be.

Pranav, just curious, what kind of hardware would be required to process video via wifi in real time for the entire field to display on a large split screen?

[Pranav]

Each car would need a camera connected to some kind of computer with a high powered wifi signal or proprietary radio. Would be a lot of weight/expense, and beyond the scope of budget amateur racing with NASA.

[dtanker65]

Gotcha. It's not my bailiwick, just idle curiosity about the current technology.

[BlueGoat]

Happy New Years everyone.
I have read this entire thread and had to laugh a few times. Everyone HATES change and HATES being told they HAVE TO do something. One thing that needs to be remembered is that a rule change is for every race group. AI is a very clean racing group of guys so of course there will be some push back in a rule that doesn't seem logical to them. I come from Spec Miata where you have all types of drivers. When I was running SM I ALWAYS had my cam on to CYA cause you never know what's going to happen. I also think it helps keep a few drivers honest and a little more level headed when they start to drive with red mist and want to "retaliate". Buy a few what I call throw away cameras on Amazon. search fake GoPro and you can get some 1080P knock offs for $45. I heard an argument about keep all these devices charged, Simple plan would be to put your helmet in your tow vehicle after you get out of your car and plug your camera into your cig charger. This way you remember your camera in your tow vehicle cause your helmet is in there. I have bought several $8 hard wired charges that plug right into GoPro and Fake GoPro. If you know you are having problems with your camera, bring it to you RD attention before the races and I am sure that will go a long way.
And not racing AI CMC anymore because of a silly rule change to help protect other drivers and officials....Come on...that in itself is just crazy talk.
Just my 2 cents ;-)

[GlennCMC70]

The desire to leave over this rule comes from the penalty aspect, not the requirement of the device.

[Suck fumes]

i would hope the camera req would only apply to races and not for ALL the sessions. That becomes a royal pain if thats the case.

[Rob Liebbe]

Since I already have a GoPro, I purchased these for attaching to an alternate power source.

https://www.adorama.com/sxdvgp3usb.html?RRref=productPage

https://www.adorama.com/sxdvgp4usbc.html?RRref=productPage

Will likely hook into a mini jump start battery like this:

http://tinyurl.com/zxl7t9j

or run some type of usb adapter to vehicle 12V source like this


https://powerwerx.com/usbbuddy-powerpole-usb-converter-device-charger?gclid=CjwKEAiA-rfDBRDeyOybg8jd2U4SJAAoE5XqOggyi_t8m8FnH5DzZbMgaiH IVqB2KEENVFXQ3Z8eEBoCXmnw_wcB

I use my GoPro for work and have been needing to go to a better power source anyway.

I've also purchased an external microphone set hoping to get better audio:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1195285-REG/polsen_gpmk_22_gopro_production_microphone.html

[JMR81]

Seems like folks are over thinking this whole thing. Our replay xd takes 2 second to install push one button to to turn on and one to start. One charge last all weekend. I figured people would be more upset with only being able to drop one weekend for points.

[RichardP]

I figured people would be more upset with only being able to drop one weekend for points.

I don't really have a clue what points system Texas CMC is going to use??? There is a default points system in Section 22 of the CCR. It's clear that the new Texas Region rules supersede the default CCR system because it specifically says that in both the CCR and the Texas Region Supplemental rules. Section 8 of the CMC rules specifies what the CMC points system is. It's pretty clear that the CMC points rules supersede the CCR rules, again based on the wording in the CCR.

It's not clear whether the Texas Region Supplemental rules supersede the CMC rules? No mention is made in either place. Generically, the CMC rules would supersede the local rules but that's not clear or spelled out. Also, the local rules just specify the number of drops (and assume all weekends have the same number of races, which might not be true). The local rules don't specify the points structure, which means the system defaults to the points structure in the CCR, which is superseded by the CMC rules. It's all a bit messy.

Anyway, I assume that CMC will use the points system specified in the CMC rules. AI will use the points system specified in the CCR with the exception of the number of drops. AIX will again likely default to whoever shows up the most wins. Confirmation or clarification from management is desired...


Richard P.

[marshall_mosty]

I don't really have a clue what points system Texas CMC is going to use??? There is a default points system in Section 22 of the CCR. It's clear that the new Texas Region rules supersede the default CCR system because it specifically says that in both the CCR and the Texas Region Supplemental rules. Section 8 of the CMC rules specifies what the CMC points system is. It's pretty clear that the CMC points rules supersede the CCR rules, again based on the wording in the CCR.

It's not clear whether the Texas Region Supplemental rules supersede the CMC rules? No mention is made in either place. Generically, the CMC rules would supersede the local rules but that's not clear or spelled out. Also, the local rules just specify the number of drops (and assume all weekends have the same number of races, which might not be true). The local rules don't specify the points structure, which means the system defaults to the points structure in the CCR, which is superseded by the CMC rules. It's all a bit messy.

Anyway, I assume that CMC will use the points system specified in the CMC rules. AI will use the points system specified in the CCR with the exception of the number of drops. AIX will again likely default to whoever shows up the most wins. Confirmation or clarification from management is desired...


Richard P.

I'll talk to Will about the number of drops. No reason why the entire region will define that for all the race groups as a whole. If we want 20% drops, we should be able to work that out. It's a spreadsheet and not that hard to manipulate. I'll post back when I know more.

[mach1]

Anyway, I assume that CMC will use the points system specified in the CMC rules.
Richard P.

I was assuming the same.

[dtanker65]

Seems like folks are over thinking this whole thing. Our replay xd takes 2 second to install push one button to to turn on and one to start. One charge last all weekend.

I have been twiddling my thumbs all day at the airport. If charging a sealed camera is an issue, I would run an in line fused feed from the bat bus, through an auto parts store switch with an led in the toggle. Just turn it on between sessions and as long as the led is lit the cameras are charging. I doubt the draw on a full size battery would be any issue. On a lawn tractor battery... I mean a light weight racecar battery I dunno. I assume, but don't know if the cameras would disconnect internally when fully charged left unattended.

[Storm Trooper]

I wired these in to my car.
https://www.amazon.com/Astra-Depot-Carvans-Waterproof-Cigarette/dp/B00LULJIW4/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1483672096&sr=8-3&keywords=12+volt+USB+charger

[marshall_mosty]

All,
Great collaboration to pull together ideas on the camera rule. This is what is so great about our group. Not every "new" thing is fun or easy to deal with, but we make lemonade out of the lemons!

On the subject of drops, I discussed it at length with Will last night and the AI/AIX/SI/CMC group will get 5 drops for next season.

[BryanL]

I don't like the vague "Fine" language. I' don't want to sign up for something that can arbitrarily fine you without setting the guidelines and amounts of a fine. I think it's a good idea but just because you have video doesn't solve all the problems. I have seen plenty of issues and disagreements over the video due to the angle, fish eye lenses, location of the mount, etc. Seems like another situation where everyone is being punished because the same idiots blow flags and cause wrecks.

At least it doesn't go into effect until June 1-sure wish it was July 1 after Hallett. But I can run cresson and cota to decide going forward or I agree a forward facing camera could be videotaping my lack of heel/toe.

[Pranav]

I think I'm going to try this one for MSRH and let you guys know how it works. Cheap Wifi enabled Gopro knockoff that is reviewed better and more popular than the actual Gopro on Amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/AKASO-EK7000-Waterproof-Rechargeable-Kits-Black/dp/B01HGM33HG

Maybe after MSRH I'll try rig up a tablet with the camera app and portable hard drive to try out the semi-automatic data dump idea so I don't have to keep pulling the SD card.

Tried this camera. It sucked. I didn't bother getting into the wifi portion of it but the fact that I could not easily tell if it was on or off while belted in was a deal killer. The LED is on the top.

Software menu was pretty limited and I'd have to drill a hole in the condom-case for a permanent hardwire.

Sending it back for a refund, going to try a refurbished Garmin Vibe ($70) on a friend's recommendation.