Mixed Group Racing - The Future of AI/SI/CMC/XX

[Fbody383]

Having participated in every single 25 Hour and growing up in NASA's home region where literally every single race group is a mixed class group, I think it's a very fun dynamic of amateur racing that you can choose to either love or hate, either way you'll get both the good and the bad dealings from time to time. Sometimes you benefit from a pick maneuver, sometimes you lose a position from someone else setting up a pick, and every once in a while the pick takes out all 3 cars. This happens even with only one class on track. It's all about being able to have the conversation with the driver's creating an inappropriate challenge, or addressing it with a NASA official at the event so we can get the driver conduct issue corrected to minimize the bad that comes with mixed group racing.

Rather than muck up the Jordan Motorsports MSRC Winning thread...

We've had similar issues before within AI/CMC - i.e. that some AI guys have had "difficulty" accepting a pass from a CMC car that just ran them down.

I don't have enough experience to know what to demand from the RD in these cases. Clearly we'll continue to address the expectations in the driver's meetings. So, is there an obligation for an out of class car to yield to an overtaking car?


Passing and Body Contact - In a passing situation both drivers must share the road and must not make moves to impeded a pass. This does not alleviate the responsibility of the overtaking driver as referenced in section 25.4.1 of the CCR.


25.4.1 Passing General
The responsibility for the decision to pass another car, and to do it safely, rests with the overtaking driver. The overtaken driver should be aware that he/she is being passed and must not impede the pass by blocking. A driver who does not watch his/her mirrors or who appears to be blocking another car seeking a pass may be penalized. The act of passing is initiated when the trailing car’s (Car A) front bumper overlaps with the lead car’s (Car B) rear bumper. The act of passing is complete when Car A’s rear bumper is ahead of Car B’s front bumper. “NO PASSING” means a pass cannot even be initiated. Any overlap in a NO PASSING area is considered illegal.

So there may not be an affirmative obligation for an out of class car to yield, there is clearly an obligation to be aware.

If we expect to have group assignees/visitors at Hallett, we will all be better off having clear behavioral expectations ahead of time.

Discuss/agree/disagree to your heart's content.

[Fbody383]

Pranav's post from the other Jordan thread:


In regards to Pranav's questions;
1) Out of class racing. In club racing, especially with the overall size of the NASA program, it's going to have to happen and it's something that we're all going to have to work through together. The issue with the Legends car that Pranav mentions isn't because it's not a V8 American car, it's a driver training issue. Driver's in mixed car groups need to develop the rapport to be able to walk into each other's pit space and talk about these things like adults, not just complain about them on the forums after the event. Even World Challenge, IMSA, LeMans, Nurburgring, and Daytona 24 hour have multiple classes on the track at the same time of very different speeds. It works and there are challenges, but it is what it is and we all take the good with the bad.

I was overly communicative about the issues, as were other drivers, to our RDs, as we have been told not to approach other drivers directly about issues but rather let the RDs handle it. In the past this meant if the RD got a complaint about a specific driver, the RD brought it up in general in the driver's meeting, then sought the specific driver in question to help figure out whatever issue it is.

The out of class racing issue was brought up in general during the driver's meeting, but again in R3 and R4 a couple of very specific examples continued to behave as if nothing was discussed.




2) Why Lightning/Autobahn groups disappeared. Basically, for the last 3 years there hasn't been a consistent enough group of regulars in either Lightning or Thunder to justify either of them getting their own run group. So we gave a try to splitting what was a combined 3/4 group into their own groups. This has consistently given us more entries than Thunder and Lighting/Autobahn having their own group and then there's only so much time in the day to build a schedule so that's why it came to this.


This is truth. We can't as a group bargain if we aren't bringing high attendance numbers. We have a number of cars that will begin to show up as the season progresses so I'm hoping we get closer to our own run group again.




Having participated in every single 25 Hour and growing up in NASA's home region where literally every single race group is a mixed class group, I think it's a very fun dynamic of amatuer racing that you can choose to either love or hate, either way you'll get both the good and the bad dealings from time to time. Sometimes you benefit from a pick maneuver, sometimes you lose a position from someone else setting up a pick, and every once in a while the pick takes out all 3 cars. This happens even with only one class on track. It's all about being able to have the conversation with the driver's creating an inappropriate challenge, or addressing it with a NASA official at the event so we can get the driver conduct issue corrected to minimize the bad that comes with mixed group racing.


I supposed part of my frustration is I would "pick to lose" when I see 3-5 legends cars coming up behind me very quickly and very obviously racing. Before this happens the CMC car behind me would have a much wider gap, then I'd move aside just enough to give them safe room to pass without screwing up their race, and the other CMC car gets right behind me; in one case two of my in class cars behind used this out of class traffic to swoop right by me because I was positioned wrong to let an out of class train by.

There really isn't any valid explanation for blown qual times.

I guess I'll need help learning how to "pick" better.

Anyways I've said my piece on this already. Looking ahead at the schedule and Thunder attendance numbers for TWS, COTA, Hallet, MSRH, and TWS again, I don't expect to be "bunched up" with a bunch out of class cars on a small/tight track again anytime soon so you won't see much whining on my part.

[Pranav]

nm

[mach1]

I would love to hear from the RX7/Legends guys point of view, I bet we wrecked their racing too, flying up and cutting through them. They were very respectful and patient of us, more so than AI has been in the past. Another thing is safety, if we have a 3500lb AI car nail a (guessing here) 1300 lb legends car, it won't be pretty. I also had a hard time seeing the legends guys, I came flying up to make a pass on a CMC car and surprise, a legends car was there, almost made contact. Will referenced the endurance racing, in that case I feel like things are much different, when you have 20 min balls to the wall sprint races the urgency changes dramatically. I don't have any answers here but I wanted to share my POV.

[Pranav]

I would love to hear from the RX7/Legends guys point of view, I bet we wrecked their racing too, flying up and cutting through them. They were very respectful and patient of us, more so than AI has been in the past. Another thing is safety, if we have a 3500lb AI car nail a (guessing here) 1300 lb legends car, it won't be pretty. I also had a hard time seeing the legends guys, I came flying up to make a pass on a CMC car and surprise, a legends car was there, almost made contact. Will referenced the endurance racing, in that case I feel like things are much different, when you have 20 min balls to the wall sprint races the urgency changes dramatically. I don't have any answers here but I wanted to share my POV.

Since this "split off" thread doesn't have my original whiny post that started this, I just wanted to re-iterate Tyler's point again:


What ever happened to the 4th race group (Autobahn) and being able to spread out the racing classes so we aren't cramming so much into one group and running over tiny cars? The RX-7 guys and most of the front half of the legends group were great to work with and I felt bad that we have such a huge speed delta on the straights while they're trying to race too, the faster legends cars would catch up and pass the tail end of CMC as well...

I will say that from recollection that the positive compliment goes to pretty much all of the Legends group not just the "front half" like I said earlier.

I really still feel terrible that they have to share a track with us big heavy cars. Contact would NOT be pretty between us.

[ShadowBolt]

The PT guys were great! The one guy in the Legend car was really bad. Jay said his Mom could beat him and she has never been on any track. Bryan went to Chris about this same guy on Friday during practice. He was so slow Jay and the front of the CMC field lapped him three times in R3. This one guy needs to be back in DE. Other than that I like the other cars out there.


JJ

[Al Fernandez]

I've black flagged cars for not going fast enough before. Its not an easy call because everyone is there paying money to have fun. If the guy is slow but predictable and on the line its one thing. Slow and all over the place and its a call to Tom or whomever is RC to get the rolling chicane off the track.

[nasawill]

Sorry about going off topic!

<------ Forum Rookie! :)

It's absolutely acceptable to go talk to another driver as long as you bring a good attitude with you.

I like to bring a bottle of water and introduce myself as the driver of *inset car color, model, and #* and ask them what they thought happened. Letting them go first will almost 100% of the time let you know which way the conversation is going to go. It will usually go one of three ways:

1) "Oh man I'm so sorry about that" or "my fault". *handshakes* and everybody goes on about their day.

or

2) Something along the lines of "what were you thinking" or "Oh you stupid MFer...." at which point you should immediately walk away and report to a race director.

or

3) "There's mustangs out there?" In which case you can choose to keep a good attitude and respectfully do some educating and/or involve a race director.

What's most important is that these things see attention and action to the challenge at hand at the track during the event. We can build blue sky on the forums till our letter fall off the keyboards, but I'd much rather address it at the track and have people leaving the event happier or at least better educated on these issues.

Please feel free to use me as a resource at the track. I'm happy to give unbiased input on situations you have questions about, or even backup a busy Race Director on an issue. This is still very fun for me so I'm happy to help anytime.

[nasawill]

Rather than muck up the Jordan Motorsports MSRC Winning thread...

We've had similar issues before within AI/CMC - i.e. that some AI guys have had "difficulty" accepting a pass from a CMC car that just ran them down.

I don't have enough experience to know what to demand from the RD in these cases. Clearly we'll continue to address the expectations in the driver's meetings. So, is there an obligation for an out of class car to yield to an overtaking car?





So there may not be an affirmative obligation for an out of class car to yield, there is clearly an obligation to be aware.

If we expect to have group assignees/visitors at Hallett, we will all be better off having clear behavioral expectations ahead of time.

Discuss/agree/disagree to your heart's content.


- If I'm driving alone and see 2 cars having a battle coming up behind me, I'll safely do everything I can to not interrupt the battle.

- If I'm in a battle and there is faster traffic coming from behind, my priority is keeping a fair battle while letting faster traffic through, however we know this plays out many different ways. It doesn't always work to our benefit, but losing a position is always better than a bent car.

-If I'm in a battle and we're coming up on slower traffic, I'm going to do everything I can to make the traffic work in my advantage.

It takes the whole run group to be on the same page for these three posts to work and even then they don't work perfectly, but at least we can all be on the same page and cordial about it. It's all about respect for people's quality of wheel-to-wheel race time.

[Fbody383]

Sorry about going off topic!

<------ Forum Rookie! :) More importantly, you addressed it. We have ways of making you look good regardless...


I like to bring a bottle of water and introduce myself as the driver of *inset car color, model, and #* and ask them what they thought happened. Letting them go first will almost 100% of the time let you know which way the conversation is going to go. It will usually go one of three ways Seems like solid approach. And the more we race with somebody... and maybe bribe them with BBQ, the better it will go.

[BryanL]

Will-I appreciate you participating in our forum and offering input. Unfortunately I am still extremely bothered by the one problem Legends car from last weekend and NASA's handling of it.

Will, you stated the issue with the Legends car was a driver training issue. This driver was repeatedly black flagged and I believe kicked out of the test day by MSR Cresson staff. Immediately upon seeing them in our group for qualifying I signaled to our race director to alert him to a dangerous issue with that particular Legends car and specifically told our RD that it did not need to be in our group. I was told it would be looked into and discussed. Yet throughout the weekend the problem was not addressed even though it sounds like others made complaints. I don't think it's my job or responsibility to try and address this type of situation after the RD has already been alerted. I agree with Pranav that we have been told not to approach the driver and let the RD handle it.

My issue was first that nothing was done to correct a problem. Second that the problem potentially caused me to lose my first race and created a situation where it appeared a close call was made on a pass of the Legends car. (This is why I was so ticked and not my normal self after the race at the impound). Then Will says the most important thing is they are addressed at the track during the event which obviously wasn't done. Then we get yelled at by our RD for racing while the emergency vehicle is on track even though there wasn't a yellow flag for awhile. If the yellow isn't out then people are going to either try and pass cars or try to keep from getting passed-throw the yellow to protect everyone please. I relaxed in the garage with some music and was good until this thread.

Based on Wills comments now I really question either the licensing process with regards to the problem Legends car or the recognizing of whatever license was used. Will stated it was a driver training issue but how can one get a license that is that unaware of what is going on around them and that far off pace? I had planned to follow up off line with our RD about this whole issue but since it has been brought up in the group I would appreciate some response. I reported the issue to our RD and don't feel it's my job to go find a particular driver to ask them why they are so slow and don't know what is going on anywhere on track. Understand in Friday's practice there were several close wrecks due to this Legends car due to braking at the late uphill apex at Wagon Wheel, braking at the apex of Ricochet, moving back and forth on the only allowed passing areas of the straights, not letting faster cars by in the straights by gassing it on the straight with a 6 car train behind it, etc.

Will-I guess I didn't do everything to try and take advantage of the slower Legends car as I didn't want to be anywhere near the car and my concern for safety by giving the car plenty of room while passing on the straight allowed another car to gain a position on me. I'll have to give it more thought as to whether that is what I would do in the future or if I should just look elsewhere. I think there may have been a wreck on Saturday based upon this line of thinking. I had already totaled one car in the same spot due to a car being out of control. That's why I enjoyed your article http://www.windingroad.com/articles/blogs/learning-curve-act-like-a-pro-on-and-off-the-track/

Tyler brings up a good point about how we wreck the other groups racing and hearing if they have any suggestions on how each race group should work together. Tyler is also right at a 20 minute race compared to a 1,500 minute race just isn't a fair comparison especially on a tight track with limited passing areas for cars of similar power/lap times.

The RX7's and rest of the Legends field were wonderful to race with. Heck-I even checked Racing Junk Monday night to see how much the Legends cars were as I talked to Jerry that might be fun to race in along with not needing a huge trailer/truck. I complimented the RX7's in our Sunday drivers meeting and stopped to pay a compliment to the Legends racers after R4 as I massaged pace to try and ensure the top three were able to pass me easy in the straights without slowing any of them down while giving a point by.

Now that I have stated all my issues-how might the rest of the group move forward. Is there a chance that since this is considered gentlemen racing that we wouldn't attempt to take advantage of passing a car in front of us due to passing a much slower car? (The issue with that isn't always the car in the middle but the car in the back which may not be aware of why they are suddenly able to catch the car in front of them due to others lifting). I told the RX7 guys as I saw them gathered that they need to come have a beer with us sat. night. I think both of the groups could fit in well as they look the most similar to our group hanging out together and working on each others cars.

[ShadowBolt]

I would really hate to be in the shoes of the slow Legend guy but he was a big problem and I agree should not have been let out with a race group. It was not that much that he did not know what to do as much as it was how damn slow he was. I remember getting lapped by Mike Patterson my first year at all the tracks except maybe TWS. At MSRH my first race ever I was six seconds a lap slower than the next slowest CMC driver and Jay was eight seconds slower. We only got lapped once per race. I think this guy may have been twenty or more seconds a lap slower than the rest of the field and that is just too much. I would never want to hurt this guys feelings but I'm sure he can get up to speed with some help and seat time.......if not racing may not be for him!

Now I don't have an issue running with other groups and I'm sure I will get screwed in a race by slower traffic or maybe win a race now and then because I guessed correctly on what side to pass the traffic on. That is just part of it and I can deal with it. I do worry about my 3280lbs. car hitting a legend car. What do they weigh 1200lbs? This could get really ugly. It could get deadly!

If you watch Jay's video of R1 from the start you will see Dan go left of Three PT cars and Jay went right. Jay could have gotten screwed big time (and if he had we would not have ended up in the deal with Dan) but the PT car moved left and let Jay go right by. I have no idea if the guy knew this was the race for first place but I feel like he did and he made sure he did not screw up the CMC leaders. Damn good job by that young man!


JJ

[mach1]

I would never want to hurt this guys feelings but I'm sure he can get up to speed with some help and seat time.......


I self regulated and made sure I could run with the group before joining, I wouldn't want to be on track with the race group unless I was within 2-3 secs of the group.

[BryanL]

Had I not been on track Friday afternoon and experienced the issues I saw then I would feel differently. I understand in practice people may be checking out their car, bedding brakes, scrubbing tires, etc. so I expect certain things to be different. i.e. people off line pointing people bye but having a general awareness about what is around you. What I don't expect is for someone to brake check you at an apex going uphill at wagon wheel and slow down a train of 4-6 cars to a snails pace only to then gun it down the straight away changing their line and not giving a point by. The question is did it get better throughout the weekend as far as awareness or was it just not as big of a problem because we could pass anywhere on track? Next question is how far off pace results in some action being taken? From the results it looks like the average lap was about 1:45. So generally 15-25 seconds off the rest of the field which means a pretty big speed delta. Only our RD knows the answers but obviously 15-25 seconds a lap slower at Cresson isn't slow enough for anything to happen.

[nasawill]

Bryan,

It sounds like the issue with the legend car you bring up being unsafe which is very different than just typical lap traffic/watching mirrors that I was referring to when I mentioned driver training. (does anybody have some video they can share with me?) If our Race Director dropped the ball on handling this I apologize. But in the terms of the NASA Texas hierarchy let me use an analogy: If you tried to return something at Home Depot and the cashier said no can do, I think 99% of us would ask to speak with a manager. NASA Texas is no different except instead of the store manager, you can approach the business owner and address it with them directly. I think our Race Directors are pretty top notch, but we're all human and deal with things slightly different. I'm happy to take any and all complaints, concerns, and questions that anybody feels a NASA Official might not be handling correctly during an event. It's an easy conversation; either I explain why something needs to be done a certain way or I address the issue properly. Happy customer and educated NASA Official, that's a good deal! I'm happy to chat it up with you guys about things like this, and I can even jump in and handle them as the Regional Director if the Rae Director is busy.

In my previous post about using picks I'm referring to using picks when it's lap traffic you trust, not a trouble making legend that possibly shouldn't be out there. I'd like to move forward with still addressing this. Does anybody have car # for the legend and/or some video so I can look into the matter deeper so this doesn't happen again?

I appreciate you reminding me of the article I did, still true every event!

[Pranav]

It was always hard to get a number but it was this one:

1715

[BryanL]

Pranav is correct. Should be #93. Just check with anyone in the small bore group on Friday's practice or check with the track management who ran practice. I know there were black flags involved.

It's also difficult to set up a pick as Will says when there is such a difference in lap time but not in terms of weight/power. To me either being way off pace or unaware a race is happening is a driver training issue. Though the difference in lap times brings another can of worms into the equation.

I still appreciate your new willingness to be involved. As mentioned I planned to follow up with our RD after the event as I wanted to give it the 24 hour rule I like to employ. I have no idea if our RD dropped the ball or how many others made a comment. I was pretty emphatic about it before qualifying based on Friday's practice. Though at what point or difference in lap time does it take to get black flagged or moved to DE? I'm guessing this could be a first event and things could hopefully get better quickly.

I recall a time at TWS where a driver was kicked out for the weekend based on Friday's test day. Now I can't remember if NASA was running the track day but I know NASA wasn't running the practice day and may have had no idea.

[nasawill]

The legend driver in question has been suspended from racing and is going to run in HPDE and/or get some private coaching to develop some race craft before returning to racing. I think he was fine with us at TWS last year or at least wasn't brought to my attention either way it's clear that he needs some work.

Sorry this affected anybody's weekend. I'm glad it got brought to my attention and handled. In the future, please don't hesitate to address this stuff with me at the track. I'd have been happy to get this gentleman moved into HPDE where he could have learned something from our top notch DE staff and the Thunder weekend would have been a little smoother.

Cheers fellas!

[Fbody383]

The legend driver in question has been suspended from racing and is going to run in HPDE and/or get some private coaching to develop some race craft before returning to racing. I think he was fine with us at TWS last year or at least wasn't brought to my attention either way it's clear that he needs some work. Knowing we're all type A in some degree, it sucks a little to have to happen. Like somebody said, "self regulation" is useful in this hobby.

I'm hopeful that driver (i) gains the skills to return to W2W, and (ii) maybe even gets to demonstrate it in the combined group again.

Will, I do appreciate the balancing act of telling a customer they're not ready for the product they wanted to buy.

[nasawill]

Will, I do appreciate the balancing act of telling a customer they're not ready for the product they wanted to buy.


It's my pleasure to assist.

PS How many posts do I need to remove my Rookie markings here on the forums? :)

[mach1]

It's my pleasure to assist.

PS How many posts do I need to remove my Rookie markings here on the forums? :)

I think it's based on posting up an aicmc lifetime 10% NASA reg discount code :-D

[marshall_mosty]

It's my pleasure to assist.

PS How many posts do I need to remove my Rookie markings here on the forums? :)

You are now "Junior"... Series subsidy can bump you up to "Guru" quickly... LOL

[nasawill]

HAHAHAHA! You guys are funny. FWIW, I was asking kinda serious. Is it an actual # of posts or is it just a moderator control?

[marshall_mosty]

HAHAHAHA! You guys are funny. FWIW, I was asking kinda serious. Is it an actual # of posts or is it just a moderator control?

I'm sure it is based on post count, but honestly don't know...
You did just pass 25 posts, so maybe that is the first "magic number", kinda like the magic discount code... :)

[chris-CMC#35]

Guys - I will take the heat on the Legends driver. I was trying to work it through the weekend, but should have pulled the plug after Saturday's Qual session. My bad, and my apologies to everyone.

Except to Bryan, cause, well, just cause. :-) Just kidding.

[smitty328]

Except to Bryan, cause, well, just cause. :-) Just kidding.

I don't blame you, he doesn't even drink good beer, and then there is that waving part of his glove.

[Fbody383]

I don't blame you, he doesn't even drink good beer, and then there is that waving part of his glove. smitty328 who??? You trying to get out of rookie status before Will?

[Al Fernandez]

Wow I've never even noticed...
You can be a Senior Member and yet still a rookie according to our dual status system.

[BryanL]

I just wish I could get rid of the crooked Carroll Shelby in the Avatar.

And I had a case of your favorite ready for you Mark.

Yeah Chris-only cost me my first win.

[Supercharged111]

In hindsight you could have given him a push and not exceeded his cornering threshold. I saw it in the video, you were trapped like a rat. Total douche move on his part.

[AI#97]

In hindsight you could have given him a push and not exceeded his cornering threshold. I saw it in the video, you were trapped like a rat. Total douche move on his part.

Is this the same guy I hit off the track in houston two years ago and he had no idea I hit him? I got two donuts on my car from one hit...was pissed he had no clue he had the front of the ST group coming through. Not sure he could get out of his own way.

At TWS in 2015 we had those guys in our ST run group with 74 cars in the run group and speed differentials of 110 to 175mph. Glad you guys inherited them instead of us! LOL!