CMC legal coil question

[BADVENM]

Hey guys, I'm posting my question here cause it will get more views/opinions and solutions vs the national forum ;)

Anyway, our CMC legal coil is in need of being replaced (Fox Mustang). We have a MSD Ignition Blaster TFI (part number 8227) that came with the car many years ago. We were told (I think) that it isnt a legal coil so we removed it.

We were looking at purchasing a Accel Supercoil Ignition Coil to match our soon to be purchased cap and rotor in preparation for west coast Nationals. Accel states "These are direct plug replacements for OEM coils."

https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/accel-supercoil-2726/ignition---tune-up-16776/ignition-coils-19690/ignition-coil-12493/ignition-coil/140012/2474071/1986/ford/mustang?q=ignition+coil

Since they fall within exactly the same resistance test specs as the OEM coil, and only a "longevity" advantage due to the "premium materials" used in the construction. Accel claims there is a higher voltage spark that lends to quicker starts and better combustion spark at high RPM that leads to better performance, but I also ran across a voltage vs. current discussion that may indicate a higher voltage isn't really an advantage like a higher current or energy is, so a higher voltage may just be advertising hogwash to sell more product.

We'll likely be running ST4 at Nationals since there are no CMC cars currently signed up (except us) for CMC. I'm sure the coil doesnt matter in ST4 but I'd like whatever I get to be legal for CMC.

[michaelmosty]

Not CMC legal. It is a slippery slope of where do you draw the line from original to various aftermarket products that might give an advantage so in this case original replacement is what is needed.

[MHISSTC]

Please indulge me asking a few more questions because I want to understand the reasoning behind the illegal declaration and how we should move forward from here.

* What is the basis for the Accel coil being illegal when Accel states it is a "direct plug replacements for OEM coils"?
* What advantage "might" this coil give?
* Everywhere I checked the Accel coil is cheaper than the OEM Motorcraft DG470 unit with a Ford part number, although not quite as cheap as the various store brands like Valucraft, Duralast, MileagePlus, and MasterPro.
* Of the specs listed about the coil, the resistance falls well within the ranges specified in the service manuals.
* Other than looking for bright yellow Accel or bright red MSD, or looking for coils that obviously don't conform to the OEM form factor, how in the world are the tech folks going to go about testing/checking for illegal coils?
* How are we going to prove we HAVE an OEM replacement coil?
* Are we going to need to specify a "spec" coil within the rules that indicates a sticker with Ford part number F7PJ-12029-AA needs to be present with all other coils besides that one being considered illegal?

[MHISSTC]

Additionally, Accel sells a couple different versions of their cap and rotor.
The first version is labeled as their "Heavy Duty" version that are gray in color with brass inserts.
The second version is labeled as their "High Performance" version that are tan in color also with brass inserts. This is the one we've had on the car for the better part of a decade.

So now I have more questions:
*Are the tan Accel cap and rotor we currently have installed also illegal because the are labeled as their "High Performance" versions?
*Are even the gray "Heavy Duty" labeled Accel cap and rotor also illegal because they also have brass inserts while other "OEM replacement" cap and rotors under the Duralast, Valuecraft, MasterPro, and even the Motorcraft versions do not have brass inserts?

[michaelmosty]

Please indulge me asking a few more questions because I want to understand the reasoning behind the illegal declaration and how we should move forward from here.

* What is the basis for the Accel coil being illegal when Accel states it is a "direct plug replacements for OEM coils"?
* What advantage "might" this coil give?
* Everywhere I checked the Accel coil is cheaper than the OEM Motorcraft DG470 unit with a Ford part number, although not quite as cheap as the various store brands like Valucraft, Duralast, MileagePlus, and MasterPro.
* Of the specs listed about the coil, the resistance falls well within the ranges specified in the service manuals.
* Other than looking for bright yellow Accel or bright red MSD, or looking for coils that obviously don't conform to the OEM form factor, how in the world are the tech folks going to go about testing/checking for illegal coils?
* How are we going to prove we HAVE an OEM replacement coil?
* Are we going to need to specify a "spec" coil within the rules that indicates a sticker with Ford part number F7PJ-12029-AA needs to be present with all other coils besides that one being considered illegal?

-I haven't researched specs on stock ignition parts vs aftermarket parts so I can't talk about any advantages these parts "might" have. The rules reasoning is to not allow that slippery slope to be there for any perceived advantage and state the part must be of OE spec.
-There are tons of "direct plug replacement" parts and "direct bolt in" parts for the car that give far more performance than their OE part.
-It doesn't matter that the part is cheaper.
-Regarding tech, the obvious part is to look for the yellow or red coil / cap / etc. If there is any question on the legality of the part it will be further researched / discussed.
-Not sure what you mean by "Having" to prove an OEM replacement coil. Do you "have" to prove other parts on your car are legal?
-We are not going to specify a "spec" coil and you don't have to run a Ford part number coil. Currently the rule will stay as is but since we are getting near the silly season you are welcome to submit a RCR if you wish.
-Yes, if your current cap / rotor has brass inserts then they are illegal.

The intention of the rule is stock replacement parts. Your note about Accel: Accel claims there is a higher voltage spark that lends to quicker starts and better combustion spark at high RPM that leads to better performance, but I also ran across a voltage vs. current discussion that may indicate a higher voltage isn't really an advantage like a higher current or energy is, so a higher voltage may just be advertising hogwash to sell more product.
They specifically claim "better performance" so there is no way this will be allowed.

[Supercharged111]

In my experience factory ignition components tend to be better made and outlast aftermarket stuff. For that reason I bought all AC Delco and Delphi ignition parts for my Camaro. I've used aftermarket coils and ICMs in the past and the experience was so bad I won't go back. Accel doesn't make very good parts IMO. Why else do you think they're so cheap? What's wrong with the current coil?

[Fbody383]

Rule is outdated. Change the rule, run any coil you want and specify it on the dyno sheet.

It does matter that it's cheaper which is supposed to be a facet of this series.

Not sure why $2500 brakes are cool but a coil isn't.

It's time to have serious discussions overall about what this series is about.

[michaelmosty]

You could look at every single part we run on our cars under a microscope and say how some rules make sense and some don't. Bottom line, why would you want to run an aftermarket part? Specifically a coil, distributor cap, or rotor.

If it is for a performance advantage, then that is why the rule is written that way. If it is for reliability, then submit an RCR.

[MHISSTC]

I appreciate the discussion.

The whole reason this came up for us in the first place is that we have what seems to be an intermittent spark issue. It's been odd to try and track down, because I would have said it was a throttle position sensor problem, but the sensor checked out just fine previously. At idle everything is good and the engine runs smooth. At full throttle, we have full power. During a race, we have an intermittent condition during throttle tip-in where the engine doesn't quit, but it sort of stumbles or misses and only produces partial power. A split second after the accelerator reaches the floor *BAM* you have full power again. It's a crappy thing to deal with as it can be unexpected and lead to some power induced oversteer on corner exit when the throttle acts like an intermittent on/off switch.

Dave had a qualifying race last weekend where the condition was NOT intermittent and any accelerator depression much above idle led to a continuous severe stumble that didn't clear up at full throttle. We previously had an issue where the spout jumper wire was grounding out on the alternator bracket. This wasn't that, but in desperation Dave wiggled all the ignition wires, harness, and pulled off and replaced all the plug and coil wires. Things were magically *fixed* after that with no good explanation of why.

In the process of *fixing* things, we did notice the little male connector end on the coil where the coil wire from the distributor cap connects to the coil was loose. The connector wasn't a screw-on type, so it couldn't be tightened. We don't think this was the cause of our issue, but it surely didn't help. That's when we started discussing the replacement of our coil and possibly other components in our ignition system that are several years old. This includes the 30+ year old factory wiring harness and connectors that lead to the TFI module and coil. I suspect something in the OEM harness may actually be where our problem is originating. At the very least, we'll be replacing the connectors to those components that are available with wiring pigtails along with any other wires that appear to be of sketchy condition.

The discussion of what to replace the older components with led us to a discussion of what would be considered legal and where our current stuff stands with regard to legality after using it for nearly a decade.

It appears, as the rules are currently written, while any plugs and wires may be used (some of which surely have a performance benefit), the cap and rotor with brass inserts we've used for nearly a decade are actually illegal. I think we may need to request a rules revision here as I'm not sure there is any "performance" benefit with our current cap and rotor, but instead more of a "reliability" and "longevity" benefit as those components still look like they are in pretty decent shape for never having been changed the whole time we've run the car. Wouldn't any performance gain realized by a mild performance coil be accounted for on the dyno and similarly be more in the realm of reliability and longevity by potentially being constructed of higher quality base components? I actually have no problem with any coil folks choose if it remains in the same form factor as the OEM coil. Basically, I think anyone should be able to use any coil that is the same size and shape as the OEM coil, not just the same output as the OEM coil. Nearly every OEM replacement and cheap mild performance coil fits that requirement. Only the seriously hot, huge, and very expensive racing coils would be excluded. I've actually tried to find out what the output specifications of the OEM coil are, but I haven't been able to find them listed anywhere, and I have no idea how to go about testing that. The only specs I have found with regard to the OEM coils are the resistance values of the windings. The Accel coil we were looking at meets those values. Accel also publishes their coil output values, but without any OEM values to compare them to, I actually have no idea how much, or even IF those values are any different. My gut feeling is if they are different, they aren't by very much. But without the OEM values to compare it to, I have no idea.

Here is another possible request for a rules change I've had on my mind for years. How about allowing the relocation of the TFI module from the distributor to a remote location on a fender well with a heat sink. This would remove it from a very hot location that can lead to it's degradation thereby increasing it's longevity and reliability by keeping it cooler with no gain in actual performance.

So, in the mean time, I guess we all now know what we can protest on our competitors cars at the Championship Events this year that actually have a field of CMC cars. Have the tech inspectors check the Fords for non-OEM replacement coils along with coils, caps, and rotors with brass components instead of whatever silver colored metal Motorcraft uses in their OEM components.

[mach1]

Hands-down the most reliable ignition set up I've ever used is OEM, every aftermarket ignition system I've dealt with has been problematic

[Suck fumes]

i had accel coil packs on my car for the first couple weekends after we built it and they actually made the car run leaner. Plus i found they were illegal so i sold em on ebay and bought new oem ones. never looked back or had a problem after that. It's the typical aftermarket hype. "Run our coils for more power". It's a crock!

[RichardP]

Hands-down the most reliable ignition set up I've ever used is OEM, every aftermarket ignition system I've dealt with has been problematic

For many of the cars in the series, you can't actually get "OEM" equipment anymore. They haven't made the stuff in a decade or more. When you get it in a box that implies OEM, you pay more but it's the same junk that everyone else is selling...


Richard P.

[Supercharged111]

Dave/Scott my truck exhibited the very symptoms you describe. Guess what happens when you go WOT? You get WOT fueling. Try new O2 sensors first or better yet, datalog the ones you have and see what you find. Mine threw no codes but would peg full lean. When I'd floor it, the WOT fueling would add enough to make the engine act normal.

[drecords]

Hands-down the most reliable ignition set up I've ever used is OEM, every aftermarket ignition system I've dealt with has been problematic

This -- every parts store distributor and TFI module I've put in my car has caused some sort of dumb issue. Old OEM stuff seems > new parts store junk.

[mach1]

For many of the cars in the series, you can't actually get "OEM" equipment anymore. They haven't made the stuff in a decade or more. When you get it in a box that implies OEM, you pay more but it's the same junk that everyone else is selling...


Richard P.
I feel you, I’ve done extensive research trying to find good parts, ironically enough I have the stock 150,000 mile ignition module on my car because the Motorcraft replacement was junk. That being said I was more referring to aftermarket performance ignition products when it comes to problematic components

Dave/Scott my truck exhibited the very symptoms you describe. Guess what happens when you go WOT? You get WOT fueling. Try new O2 sensors first or better yet, datalog the ones you have and see what you find. Mine threw no codes but would peg full lean. When I'd floor it, the WOT fueling would add enough to make the engine act normal.
I believe at wide-open throttle the eec-iv computer is fueling from the predefined open loop tables, not sure the o2 sensors will help much in this case.

[Supercharged111]

I feel you, I’ve done extensive research trying to find good parts, ironically enough I have the stock 150,000 mile ignition module on my car because the Motorcraft replacement was junk. That being said I was more referring to aftermarket performance ignition products when it comes to problematic components

I believe at wide-open throttle the eec-iv computer is fueling from the predefined open loop tables, not sure the o2 sensors will help much in this case.

You're forgetting that WOT fueling is richer than cruise or tip in fueling.

[mach1]

You're forgetting that WOT fueling is richer than cruise or tip in fueling.

My bad for not reading the whole post, I didn't realize it was only at tip in

[BADVENM]

For the past many years we've had an occasional issue with part throttle hesitation. Last weekend at Hastings I had an instance where the car was fine for the warmup lap in qualifying, as soon as I took the green for my first qualifying lap the car simply fell on its face at 1/4 throttle and remained that way with the foot to the floor on gas pedal. When I backed off to 1/4 throttle the car would run. When I pulled into our paddock area the car had an odd idle to it. I remembered our Nationals race at Miller a few years ago when the car died in the middle of the track at standing start. When we got off the track Scott wiggled some plug and/or coil wires and the car fired up. Figured I'd try that and it worked. So we're trying to track down what appears to be a coil or wire or cap problem. I pulled a spark plug yesterday and it looked incredibly well for being in the car several years.

[Supercharged111]

For the past many years we've had an occasional issue with part throttle hesitation. Last weekend at Hastings I had an instance where the car was fine for the warmup lap in qualifying, as soon as I took the green for my first qualifying lap the car simply fell on its face at 1/4 throttle and remained that way with the foot to the floor on gas pedal. When I backed off to 1/4 throttle the car would run. When I pulled into our paddock area the car had an odd idle to it. I remembered our Nationals race at Miller a few years ago when the car died in the middle of the track at standing start. When we got off the track Scott wiggled some plug and/or coil wires and the car fired up. Figured I'd try that and it worked. So we're trying to track down what appears to be a coil or wire or cap problem. I pulled a spark plug yesterday and it looked incredibly well for being in the car several years.

Perry had an issue a couple years back where the coil's pigtail was making a shitty/intermittent connection. I had driveability issues on my basically CMC spec 5.0 that I had in my Crown Vic. As soon as I switched over to the GT40P heads I had a lean tip in which I band aided by cranking fuel pressure from 39 to 43. Granted you are running all Cobra stuff so likely not an issue for you, but thought I'd throw that out there. The rules kinda suck for a guy with an E cam, GT40 top end, and a stock tune.

[Fbody383]

You could look at every single part we run on our cars under a microscope and say how some rules make sense and some don't. Bottom line, why would you want to run an aftermarket part? Specifically a coil, distributor cap, or rotor.

If it is for a performance advantage, then that is why the rule is written that way. If it is for reliability, then submit an RCR.

It is a context question and it should be a driver/mechanic preference not a rule preference.

If I want the ability to run an Accel coil, or an MSD optispark that yields no performance advantage, why can't I? Make the notation on the dyno sheet and risk re-dyno if something changes.

Reliability can also be described in terms of dollars - i.e. small block Ford cranks. One invisible intent of the rules is to NOT have to pull the motor every couple of races to check the crank.

If OEM is so good for reliability, let's roll the brake rule back.

[michaelmosty]

OEM is good for reliability on some parts, but not all.
IMO, the brake rule is a completely different scenario than the ignition discussion.

[marshall_mosty]

Sounds like it might be a MAF issue. I've had them go bad on the dyno and had the MAF end up being the culprit.

[Supercharged111]

What does the EECIV have for datalogging options? That's how I found the bad O2 on my truck and that's also the most certain way to diagnose a MAF. Does the pumpkin run a dry filter or an oiled filter?

[Al Fernandez]

I think Mike is spot on in everything he has said. OE parts is not a goal, rather a tactic to achieve a goal of cars being safe, cheap, reliable, and good for competition. Sometimes OE wins, sometimes it doesn't. However, I do recognize that when the ignition rule was created, all aftermarket ignition coils, distributors, bla bla bla were more expensive than boring looking black OE replacements. If that is no longer the case and therefore the balance shifts...great, lets get the facts together using real data across the platforms and change the rules.

[Fbody383]

OEM is good for reliability on some parts, but not all. I think the racer should have latitude to determine OEM or other parts when "performance" is not impacted. Reliability can also be time and money. No, I don't think a small block Ford guy should have to choose whether or not to inspect a crankshaft regularly versus a potentially more reliable, less expensive overall aftermarket. Should a 4th gen guy have to buy some unobtanium dash cover, just because?


IMO, the brake rule is a completely different scenario than the ignition discussion. There were other external drivers that have since been removed so why not go back to OEM?

I think the overall tone of the rules is still fine, but some of this stuff needs review.

[Al Fernandez]

All drivers are free to go back to 12" rotors with twin piston sliding calipers any time they want.

[BADVENM]

We dont have a MAF. We run a K&N oiled filter in the stock airbox.

[mach1]

Speed density car, nice, you check the map sensor?

[marshall_mosty]

What about putting a volt meter on the TPS to make sure it's ramping correctly during tip-in.

[Supercharged111]

We dont have a MAF. We run a K&N oiled filter in the stock airbox.

I thought you were using Cobra engine management? If not what kind of fuel pressure do you run? Was there a time when you didn't have the tip in hesitation?

[MHISSTC]

Sounds like it might be a MAF issue. I've had them go bad on the dyno and had the MAF end up being the culprit.

We're running speed density with no MAF.

[MHISSTC]

What about putting a volt meter on the TPS to make sure it's ramping correctly during tip-in.

That was also my initial thought, but it checked out when we had looked into it previously. It's also in intermittent problem that went away when Dave was moving around the wiring harness, so we're still inclined to believe it's something pertaining to either the loose male connector on the coil and/or the crappy old brittle wiring in the harness at the connector to the coil and at the SPOUT connector. Our plan is to replace the coil (the reason this thread originated), along with the coil connector and SPOUT connector portions of the harness with available OEM replacement connectors and pigtails.

[MHISSTC]

I thought you were using Cobra engine management? If not what kind of fuel pressure do you run? Was there a time when you didn't have the tip in hesitation?

Basically it's a '93 Cobra engine running on what I believe is an '88 speed density computer. Without looking at Dave's documentation, I can't specifically say what our max fuel pressure is, but I want to say 34psi at WOT.

[BADVENM]

Fuel pressure is in the 40-44 psi range.

[MHISSTC]

I think Mike is spot on in everything he has said. OE parts is not a goal, rather a tactic to achieve a goal of cars being safe, cheap, reliable, and good for competition. Sometimes OE wins, sometimes it doesn't. However, I do recognize that when the ignition rule was created, all aftermarket ignition coils, distributors, bla bla bla were more expensive than boring looking black OE replacements. If that is no longer the case and therefore the balance shifts...great, lets get the facts together using real data across the platforms and change the rules.

Yes, probably a good time for a review.

I've been researching this heavily over the past few days. Condensing everything down... ...and with zero ability to control timing from a fancy distributor and with our engines at the level of performance they operate... ...it seems the only "performance" benefit to be had from a hotter coil (higher voltage output) is possibly a smoother idle. Basically, it seems if you don't have super high compression, or power adder, or super high RPMs, there is actually no "performance" advantage to be seen. The only potential advantage may be with better longevity and durability if the manufacturer uses higher quality components. And from what folks have already posted, that may also be questionable. If the quality is the same, the benefit may then only be a cheaper price than the OEM brand, as the OEM brand (Motorcraft/Autolite in our specific case) seems to now have a higher price tag attached to it, even though it may only be a rebranded part from a specific no-name manufacturer.

And now I'm even seeing other threads that claim the aluminum terminals on caps may actually have a performance advantage because the conduct electricity better than brass. If that's the case, the only benefit to brass is possibility they wear better/oxidize differently than aluminum.

[MHISSTC]

Fuel pressure is in the 40-44 psi range.

My dyslexia must have kicked in. I guess the number should have been 43.

[marshall_mosty]

What about the salt/pepper shaker plugs that merge the main computer wiring with the EFI harness? Maybe time to cut them out and solder all that back together?

How do your grounds look? Do you still have the ground strap on the back of the driver's side cylinder head?

[Supercharged111]

Fuel pressure is in the 40-44 psi range.


My dyslexia must have kicked in. I guess the number should have been 43.

We can rule that out. I tell you what, my car is chugging when I leave a sweeper like I'm out of gas. How about you leave your car broken for HPR so we're even? :D

[BADVENM]

We've got the CMC title for 2017 so we dont need to show up and run. If we do show up its only to make sure our electrical fixes are good on track and no other issues arise. I'm not risking any physical contact with any other cars (cough) since the day after HPR we start heading to California for Nationals.

[BADVENM]

19 TOTAL views with no replies on the CMC National forum, 489 views and 39 replies on this forum. :)

[MHISSTC]

What about the salt/pepper shaker plugs that merge the main computer wiring with the EFI harness? Maybe time to cut them out and solder all that back together?

How do your grounds look? Do you still have the ground strap on the back of the driver's side cylinder head?

We will definitely check all that.

[Supercharged111]

We've got the CMC title for 2017 so we dont need to show up and run. If we do show up its only to make sure our electrical fixes are good on track and no other issues arise. I'm not risking any physical contact with any other cars (cough) since the day after HPR we start heading to California for Nationals.

You'll be fine as long as there isn't a Hanksville. Come on out and play if you think you're man enough. :p

[BADVENM]

I've manned up and shown up at every event local event, two cross region events and a heading to a national championship event this year. Cant say that for anyone else.

[Pranav]

I've manned up and shown up at every event local event, two cross region events and a heading to a national championship event this year. Cant say that for anyone else.

Move to Texas!

[Supercharged111]

Are you aware of how hot it gets down there?

[39PitCrew]

Are you aware of how hot it gets down there?

It's not the heat, it's the humidity.

[Supercharged111]

It's not the heat, it's the humidity.

I take it you've never been to Vegas in July.

[39PitCrew]

I take it you've never been to Vegas in July.

Actually I was in Vegas many moons ago for an industry show in July.
They had just paved the parking lot at the convention hall a couple weeks
before the show. At 5:30 in the afternoon the blacktop was about 150
degrees and would make the rubber soles on my dress shoes soft enough
that I could leave a finger impression in the heel. The air temp one
afternoon was 114 if I remember right. Once the sun went down it would
get to about 85 and there would be a little breeze and it was actually
pretty nice. Unlike yesterday morning when it was 79 degrees and 94%
humidity.

[Supercharged111]

Brutal. Qatar was the best of both worlds: all the heat plus the humidity. Thermometer sat around 130 and you could smell the door mat melting when you walked into work. Most every day someone would break out with "who the fuck would want to live here?!". Place looked like the moon.

[GlennCMC70]

Yuma AZ where my wife is from.
Overnight low in August is over 100.
Yes - the whole month of August never dropped below 100.

[MHISSTC]

Move to Texas!

It's not too late for the Texas contingency to sign up for CMC at the Western State Championships!

It's unbelievable to us, but so far, just like it in 2015, we are the only CMC entry signed up for this national event. At Laguna Seca in 2015 we had to re-class into PTB. We'd really rather not have to re-class into ST4 this year if we don't have to. Only 3 more CMC entries are needed for us to have the class. I'm not going to smack-talk to try and get someone else to sign up, but it would be really nice if 3 other folks did.

[Pranav]

You guys are soft.

Humidity schumidity.

[Pranav]

You just gotta bring a towel with you.

[Supercharged111]

I mean if you like smelling your own junk while standing up fully clothed then yeah, humidity FTW.

[Fbody383]

It's not too late for the Texas contingency to sign up for CMC at the Western State Championships! I feel for ya man. IF, the big if, I was doing a national this year (and I'm not) I would have gone east.

Looking forward to a middle country event one of these days.

And none of that is about a stock coil.

[Supercharged111]

If they do RA I can't say no. Anyone else? Too bad that's home turf for the Midwest/GL bubbas, I'm sure they know all the tricks.

[blk96gt]

If they do RA I can't say no. Anyone else? Too bad that's home turf for the Midwest/GL bubbas, I'm sure they know all the tricks.

I couldn't say no to RA.