MSRC/CMC Media

[drecords]

I discussed with some of you this weekend, I've gotten administrator priviliges to the NASA Camaro Mustang Challenge FBook page so am going to start trying to create more content than has been coming out of there in recent history. Can you guys upload your R1 videos to Google Drive this week and share with me. PM me if you need my email address. I want to cut them together and see if I could create a cool 3-5min summary of the race for the interwebs that would be exciting and not 20+ mins long and flash between the different cars. (Attention spans are short, mkay?). Also, go like and follow the NASA Camaro Mustang Challege facebook page for obvious reasons -- I'll be creating an event summary shortly with photos (Thanks to those of you that already put them out on bookface) and results/commentary on what happened over the weekend.

I posted a grid walk on there Saturday and it got lots of views and shares -- all will help us grow the class.

Daniel

[64GunPilot]

I had aspirations of creating a CMC YouTube Channel. This is in the same ballpark

[BryanL]

Saw some great racing so congrats to all who made it on track but none more than Kevin Jander for winning DE (twice in the same year!), National Champion, King of the Hillbillies, best beard, quickest tire changer, and the list goes on and on.

Congrats to CMC for once again having the second biggest class at a NASA event even though they think we are dying or want to get rid of us. I had a great time at the track seeing everyone and getting excited to get ready for Hallett.

Awesome seeing the performance of the Falken Tire Test as the tire is certainly fast enough and showed it could race even into double digit heat cycles. Looking forward to more feedback but the instant feedback I heard after R2 was outstanding. Definitely warrants more testing but looks extremely promising as this could cut tire budget between 60-75%. Thanks to those who took the chance on this so far.

[ShadowBolt]

"Awesome seeing the performance of the Falken Tire Test as the tire is certainly fast enough and showed it could race even into double digit heat cycles. Looking forward to more feedback but the instant feedback I heard after R2 was outstanding. Definitely warrants more testing but looks extremely promising as this could cut tire budget between 60-75%. Thanks to those who took the chance on this so far".


I just wish the tire being tested was a Toyo tire. I'm not sure I see the way to make any other tire work as far as NASA and Toyo are concerned.


Jerry

[blk96gt]

Awesome seeing the performance of the Falken Tire Test as the tire is certainly fast enough and showed it could race even into double digit heat cycles. Looking forward to more feedback but the instant feedback I heard after R2 was outstanding. Definitely warrants more testing but looks extremely promising as this could cut tire budget between 60-75%. Thanks to those who took the chance on this so far.

10+ heat cycle toyo's were competitive with sticker toyos this weekend. This "tire test" didn't prove anything except that they're a slower tire.

[Sook]

10+ heat cycle toyo's were competitive with sticker toyos this weekend. This "tire test" didn't prove anything except that they're a slower tire.

The story would be different if we could get Toyos for this weekend.

We were hitting lap times with heat cycled toyos. Stickers decisively won R1 and R3.

- Josh

[blk96gt]

The story would be different if we could get Toyos for this weekend.

We were hitting lap times with heat cycled toyos. Stickers decisively won R1 and R3.

- Josh

Did they win because of sticker tires or driving? Lap times tell a different story.

[Sook]

Did they win because of sticker tires or driving? Lap times tell a different story.

A time trial story.

[ShadowBolt]

Did they win because of sticker tires or driving? Lap times tell a different story.

I have seen lap times change more than a second per lap from one day to the next during a race weekend. Even from morning to afternoon races on the same day.

JJ

[centerville]

I discussed with some of you this weekend, I've gotten administrator priviliges to the NASA Camaro Mustang Challenge FBook page so am going to start trying to create more content than has been coming out of there in recent history. Can you guys upload your R1 videos to Google Drive this week and share with me. PM me if you need my email address. I want to cut them together and see if I could create a cool 3-5min summary of the race for the interwebs that would be exciting and not 20+ mins long and flash between the different cars. (Attention spans are short, mkay?). Also, go like and follow the NASA Camaro Mustang Challege facebook page for obvious reasons -- I'll be creating an event summary shortly with photos (Thanks to those of you that already put them out on bookface) and results/commentary on what happened over the weekend.

I posted a grid walk on there Saturday and it got lots of views and shares -- all will help us grow the class.

Daniel

As I am not racing yet. If there is anyway I can help with pics or vids let me know how I can help.

[michaelmosty]

My fast lap times for each race were:
Race 1 - 1:25.129, was on heat cycle #11 (car was pushing very bad)
Race 2 - 1:24.565, was on heat cycle #12 (made three different adjustments and handling was much better)
Race 3 - 1:25.289, was on heat cycle #14 (was pushing again as RF tire was almost bald)
Race 4 - 1:24.421, was on heat cycle #15 (swapped LF to RF and had much better grip)

I was surprised to see my fast lap of the weekend come in the last session but I was making adjustments throughout the whole event. 3 of my 4 tires are almost bald and will probably not see the track again. This was the fewest heat cycles I have ever gone through a set of tires but they did have some long races with Nationals, Houston, and Cresson.

[BryanL]

10+ heat cycle toyo's were competitive with sticker toyos this weekend. This "tire test" didn't prove anything except that they're a slower tire.

True-the Falkens fastest lap were half a second slower than you were in R2 and R4 but I don't know if that was due to the tires or driving. What do you and Mosty's lap times look like compared to the winners on stickers other than being maybe a second slower but still competitive?

I wasn't aware you did a back to back test on the same car/driver/conditions/pressures being optimal? So not sure what your definition of "competitive" is but might guess they were as competitively slower compared to the Falken.

Clearly you have an issue with any consideration for a different tire and that's fine but you are in the minority as it appears everyone other than maybe the directors are interested in finding a better tire. I believe Sook is correct that sticker Toyo's decisively won the Toyo races and some of the traditional trophy girls on heat cycled RR's weren't competitive with the stickers.

Jerry-remember there is AIX which we can all run in and follow every rule of CMC other than the tire being a Falken. I doubt Will is going to turn down $5,000 in entry fees for every event from the second largest class in NASA TX.

Curious to see who all is interested in running Falkens the whole weekend at Hallett.

[RichardP]

This "tire test" didn't prove anything except that they're a slower tire.

The point of a spec tire is that everyone has equal tires to race on. Their performance compared to other brands is irrelevant. There is no need for them to be competitive with Toyos. If anything, I think most people were shocked how fast the test tires were. One of the reasons for going to a different tire is the hope that they have less grip so we would break fewer parts. We are seriously abusing very old cars that were never meant to handle the loads we are placing on them.


Richard P.

[Suck fumes]

If everyone wants a less grippy product then pick the R1R (200tw) or something in the toyo family. Nasa is not going to separate from Toyo anytime soon nor do I see them allowing a competitor brand slip into a spec tire class.

I concur with Kevin. What did anyone prove other than wasting time and money.

[michaelmosty]

Bryan, the fastest race lap of the weekend was a 1:23.9xx by B. Curtis in Race 1 on stickers. I was pleasantly surprised my best lap of the weekend was only a 1/2 second off the fastest lap considering it was on the 15th heat cycle on my tires and I am historically not as fast at Cresson. I personally have never in my life run a lap in the 23's in my car.
Also, John had the overall fastest lap of the weekend in Sunday qualifying with a 1:23.134 and I think his RR's were around heat cycle 10.

I think those times show the RR holds up maybe better than expected.

I was very impressed with the speed out of the Falken's. I didn't think they would be close to the same lap times as the RR and R4 showed they were no more than 1 second slower.

[drecords]

Any of y'all gonna send me videos? There's a tire thread for this.

[Sook]

What did anyone prove other than wasting time and money.

The Cresson tire test was extremely successful in getting the conversation started. Suggesting an alternative Toyo has not gone over well before - people suddenly seem OK with the idea.


If everyone wants a less grippy product then pick the R1R (200tw) or something in the toyo family. Nasa is not going to separate from Toyo anytime soon nor do I see them allowing a competitor brand slip into a spec tire class.

Can you imagine what kind of backlash there would have been if we had originally suggested R1Rs? I will say that I haven't heard anything, good or bad, about R1Rs. The Youtubes are all the rage about the R888R, but everything I've seen is from track day bros that scored them for free to review (subscriber count is king), never a real competition or TT.

Falken is showing serious support for the 615+ in the competition tire realm, and a lot of people are running them hard without issue. I think running AIX is a good plan to test a tire, I don't see that as a long term solution though. There is also the 200TW TT class that's taking off with the Falkens.

Does anyone know the real reason we couldn't get RRs? Prices went up this year and availability went down. If we're going to run fancy expensive race tires we should at least be able to buy them.

- Josh

[drecords]

The Cresson tire test was extremely successful in getting the conversation started. Suggesting an alternative Toyo has not gone over well before - people suddenly seem OK with the idea.



Can you imagine what kind of backlash there would have been if we had originally suggested R1Rs? I will say that I haven't heard anything, good or bad, about R1Rs. The Youtubes are all the rage about the R888R, but everything I've seen is from track day bros that scored them for free to review (subscriber count is king), never a real competition or TT.

Falken is showing serious support for the 615+ in the competition tire realm, and a lot of people are running them hard without issue. I think running AIX is a good plan to test a tire, I don't see that as a long term solution though. There is also the 200TW TT class that's taking off with the Falkens.

Does anyone know the real reason we couldn't get RRs? Prices went up this year and availability went down. If we're going to run fancy expensive race tires we should at least be able to buy them.

- Josh

After talking it over with a few others after R4, I'll be reaching out to some of you for some data on #of heat cycles at various times and start building a spreadsheet to track RR degradation versus alternative tire degradation with heat cycles.

I agree with the sentiments that it would be I'll advised for us all to show up and run AIX in lieu of CMC on an alternative tire. I will keep running my set of streets in practice days/DE's and keep putting HC's on them.

[MikeP99Z]

Since AIX will be so popular, all the AI guys are going to participate with 700+hp motors and 315 Hoosier R7s. Hope that's ok...

[RichardP]

My fast lap times for each race were:
Race 1 - 1:25.129, was on heat cycle #11 - Temp 72, pressure 29.1 (green track after overnight rain)
Race 2 - 1:24.565, was on heat cycle #12 - Temp 57, pressure 29.1
Race 3 - 1:25.289, was on heat cycle #14 - Temp 52, pressure 29.3 (intermittent light spitting rain)
Race 4 - 1:24.421, was on heat cycle #15 - Temp 53, pressure 29.4

I was surprised to see my fast lap of the weekend come in the last session but I was making adjustments throughout the whole event.

The best conditions of the weekend were also in race four. So many variables to account for. The big question is what your lap times would have been with fresher rubber? I would love to see that data that doesn't (and effectively can't) exist.


Richard P.

[RichardP]

Since AIX will be so popular, all the AI guys are going to participate with 700+hp motors and 315 Hoosier R7s. Hope that's ok...

That would be an interesting change. Last year not a single person signed up for AIX. All it would have taken to win the championship was to take a single green flag at some point during the season. But it didn't happen...


Richard P.

[Suck fumes]

So if the push is for a less grippy tire for expense and wear and tear problems to grow the class.....There is going to come a point where the year model range for cars is going to have to expand. I mean the 2005 mustang is already 14yrs old! Younger new comers looking in are going to have a hell of a time finding a 20-30 yr old camaro or mustang that’s in decent enough shape to even build. Not to mention a 30 yr old car is not a very attractive incentive to want to build for a guy who wasn’t even born when those cars were around. I know that’s kind of off topic but if the reason to change tires is because cars are breaking then maybe there should be a much bigger rule change in the future if you want more growth. The point is to bring new people in not just to bring the older people back. Having both would be ideal but can’t please everyone.

[ShadowBolt]

So if the push is for a less grippy tire for expense and wear and tear problems to grow the class.....There is going to come a point where the year model range for cars is going to have to expand. I mean the 2005 mustang is already 14yrs old! Younger new comers looking in are going to have a hell of a time finding a 20-30 yr old camaro or mustang that’s in decent enough shape to even build. Not to mention a 30 yr old car is not a very attractive incentive to want to build for a guy who wasn’t even born when those cars were around. I know that’s kind of off topic but if the reason to change tires is because cars are breaking then maybe there should be a much bigger rule change in the future if you want more growth. The point is to bring new people in not just to bring the older people back. Having both would be ideal but can’t please everyone.


For me Aaron the question is if we had a tire that does not fall off with heat cycles (if that is even possible) could we grow the class? If you are not at the pointy end of the field but you want to be as fast as possible every time on track you are forced to purchase a new set of tires every race weekend. If you are not getting any (or very little) Toyo money it may make you stop racing or never start. I know when I started 10 years ago not a single CMC racer was buying tires for every race. In fact for some reason they believed the tires (RA-1's) were their fastest just prior to cording. I was shocked how much more road racing (even at this low level) cost me than I thought it would. Then the 888 debacle then the RR comes along and several of the fastest guys were showing up with stickers for every event. Most of us (if not all of us) can afford to buy a new set for every event. The question is how much could we grow the class if we could cut the cost of tires? I do not know that answer. Maybe it would make no difference. The fast guys will still be the fast guys and us mid pack slackers will still be where we always are just maybe at half the tire cost.


JJ

[BryanL]

Michael-To borrow from another post your tire test didn't prove anything other than 10-15 HC RR's being slower (lol). Good info. But I would add to that your ability to tune a car around a tire that is falling off is impressive. I believe you would have a 23 if you had been on stickers. And again you are having handling issues on heat cycles that would be for your second event - a full weekend of racing is 8 sessions and you were on your 15th and won't see the track again. I don't buy that you aren't good at Cresson either as last year in the toyo races you had a 1st and 3rd.

The interest is in a tire that will cut tire budgets from $6-7k to under $2k for a season. That benefits most of the people who make most events and would increase car count for people who have cars sitting at home and potentially have people buy cars that are sitting.

The age of our cars is and isn't valid as Spec Miata is for 1990-2005. Spec E46 is a relatively new class for 2001-2006 cars so the newest available chassis is 13 years old. Some think it's growing like crazy but the costs of that class have gotten out of hand in my opinion so we will see if the class does the same as Spec Iron. I don't see a way to bring the newer cars into our class as that was already tried.

MP-where all these AIX cars that would populate the class? If so then wouldn't a popular class be a good problem? If 30 AIX lite cars were gridded at Nationals with the 2-3 AIX cars with 700 hp I don't think it would have mattered.

Of course one could stay in CMC with a different tire and "fun run".

I do understand those who most often win the contingencies (Jander, Mosty, Curtis, McSpadden) not wanting a change. Let's keep the discussion going and the information coming and Records point us to the thread you want everything moved to since you are gathering the data.

[Suck fumes]

I honestly don’t care what tire we run on. All I’m saying is to maximize growth there will come a point where more than just tires will have to be considered. Tires are pricey and I would love to save more money but the approach we are taking to try and get a change in my opinion is a waste of time considering the close relationship Nasa has with Toyo. I think we need to actually come together at a national level and talk to national reps and lobby for change instead of just buying some random set of tires, running one weekend on them on a track that has grip no matter what you put on it and drawing a conclusion that this is the answer.

[Supercharged111]

So if the push is for a less grippy tire for expense and wear and tear problems to grow the class.....There is going to come a point where the year model range for cars is going to have to expand. I mean the 2005 mustang is already 14yrs old! Younger new comers looking in are going to have a hell of a time finding a 20-30 yr old camaro or mustang that’s in decent enough shape to even build. Not to mention a 30 yr old car is not a very attractive incentive to want to build for a guy who wasn’t even born when those cars were around. I know that’s kind of off topic but if the reason to change tires is because cars are breaking then maybe there should be a much bigger rule change in the future if you want more growth. The point is to bring new people in not just to bring the older people back. Having both would be ideal but can’t please everyone.

We tried that years ago and decided the S197 had to run on 225mm tires and everyone bailed. I don't get why people think our cars are too old when we have Spec E30 and Spec Miata that thrive and all the hipsters seem to love those cars.

[Suck fumes]

one word........RELIABILITY!!!

[Supercharged111]

A car that doesn't make enough power to hurt itself is of no interest to me.

[ShadowBolt]

I honestly don’t care what tire we run on. All I’m saying is to maximize growth there will come a point where more than just tires will have to be considered. Tires are pricey and I would love to save more money but the approach we are taking to try and get a change in my opinion is a waste of time considering the close relationship Nasa has with Toyo. I think we need to actually come together at a national level and talk to national reps and lobby for change instead of just buying some random set of tires, running one weekend on them on a track that has grip no matter what you put on it and drawing a conclusion that this is the answer.

I agree with you Aaron. I think for this to work we need to talk to Toyo people (an engineer and others) about if what we want to do is even possible and if so on what Toy tire.


Sorry Daniel we screwed up your thread. Maybe someone could move all this to the tire thread.

JJ

[MikeP99Z]

My point is, as soon as you throw an "X" on the car, then it's game on to be within the AIX rules. No way to police a gentleman's agreement to stay within CMC rules for AIX. Hmm, pull restrictor plate, add cam, a little of this, a little of that.

[drecords]

You guys are insufferable! One jerk starts a tire thread and we can't talk about anything else. Lol. Soo who wants to send me videos (from the races).

[Sook]

You guys are insufferable! One jerk starts a tire thread and we can't talk about anything else. Lol. Soo who wants to send me videos (from the races).

I have gigbytes of front and rear dash cam video. I don't have a good way to combine all the clips together because they all over lap a few seconds. Also, the cameras go into emergency record quite often with the crazy spring rates I've got. I'll try to figure something out soon.

- Josh

[AI#97]

Since AIX will be so popular, all the AI guys are going to participate with 700+hp motors and 315 Hoosier R7s. Hope that's ok...

Are you channeling some MFW today? ;)

<---has 315 hoosiers, 17x11's and an uncorkable camaro to play with in AIX to win LOTS of free Hoosiers if there are 5+ cars!

[Fbody383]

one word........RELIABILITY!!! You mean like a 230hp CMC class...

[Supercharged111]

You mean like a 230hp CMC class...

Come on up to CO, we make CMC1 power here.

[Al Fernandez]

Geez Brian, maybe you should run for public office and put that rhetoric skill to good use.

Ive got great video of my car blowing out a bunch of smoke on the dyno...will that help attract people?

And Dan...tanks for volunteering to track some data, that's a great idea.

[drecords]

We need to enable GIFS on this forum so I can put one of a guy tapping his fingers waiting for videos. ;)