Future of CMC: A wish list

[Pranav]

It's Monday, I'm sore as hell and just got done racing in a whopping 4 car (only 2 finished) field and a new set of Toyos that are toast after busting my ass all month to get the car ready, and have some thoughts

-Ours cars are getting old, falling apart, good parts/support are hard to find, and not everyone is going to run an LS 4th gen
-Toyo RRs suck
-Other classes are coming up and growing while we're having <7 driver events and getting crammed into other race groups; we're quickly becoming the lemons/chump of nasa with our unpresentable cars and constant complaining.

How about we bring back CMC2 and let the 5th gens and S197s run in it with a CMC type formula, on Nitto NT01s, and let us all transition to that over a few years?

In the meantime how about we:
-Open up ignition control rules so 5.0 mustangs and LT1s can run coil near plug setups
-Have a serious discussion about Nitto NT01s and floating that up the chain at NASA. The azenis test was cool and all, but with Nitto being a sister/subsidiary to Toyo and very much looking like its the original RA1 compound, I think we may have a better shot at switching to that rather than anything else

For me, hopefully after this season I will finally have finished my build list I started in 2012; could mean I can enjoy just driving/maintaining the car or sell it while the car is at it's peak.

[blk96gt]

The Maxxis RC-1 is a better choice and is already a contingency sponsor for the ST classes.

[Pranav]

Didn't know that; so NASA has no issue with spec classes running non Toyos?

[Pranav]

I also legimately predict at least one of us is going to lose a car at TMS this year.

[blk96gt]

Didn't know that; so NASA has no issue with spec classes running non Toyos?

No idea. I just know in ST/TT you can run either Maxxis RC1 or a Hoosier.

[Sook]

I also legimately predict at least one of us is going to lose a car at TMS this year.

AFAIK the spec tire classes as NASA use Toyos. Non-spec tire classes sometimes have multiple tire contingencies available.

- Josh

[ShadowBolt]

I don't think the cars are too old but the tire issue sucks and is part of what is killing our class (IMHO). Losing TWS has done more to hurt our class than all the shitty tires in the world. Going from racing a very fun track for $300.00-$350.00 entry fee two times per year to running one track one time for $1200.00 you are going to lose racers in a what is supposed to be a low cost class. We need ECR back on line for one or maybe even two races per year.


JJ

[BryanL]

I know few pay attention to what I type. But again - NASA has several classes with tire sponsors paying contingencies other than Toyo. In AIX/ST they have several tire sponsors but Maxis isn't one of them. Reminder in AIX you can run whatever tire you want. I actually thought Sook would be one who reads the posts since he was deep into testing the Falkens, too.

Jerry is right. TWS hurt and COTA at $1,200 isn't for our class (though all classes were pretty down). The tires are really hurting our class! ECR would be a big help.

NASA just emailed a survey which starts off asking about TIRES! And just for Kevin Jander I ranked the lowest lap time at the bottom of the order.

Pranav-anyone at COTA running old tires?

[BryanL]

I don't think the cars are too old either. Look at Miata and Spec E30 then the new class Spec E46 has the same year of cars as my Camaro.

[ShadowBolt]

This is my 11th year racing CMC splitting driving time with Jay. Last year and this year are the first times I have ever heard CMC drivers talking about running a different class. I know of four drivers thinking about running a different class. This is not good.


JJ

[blk96gt]

Well Maxxis doesn't appear to have a contingency this year. Oh well.

[Pranav]

Whatever the causes (COTA being $$$, tires, cars breaking or not breaking) I just want my mid pack slackers back.

During race 3 John martin got past me in turn 1 and it became a 30 minute DE session for me because everyone else was gone and it was just me and my thoughts.

If I gotta start carrying mustang spares to get bigger fields again I'll make something work.

[centerville]

I don't think the cars are too old but the tire issue sucks and is part of what is killing our class (IMHO). Losing TWS has done more to hurt our class than all the shitty tires in the world. Going from racing a very fun track for $300.00-$350.00 entry fee two times per year to running one track one time for $1200.00 you are going to lose racers in a what is supposed to be a low cost class. We need ECR back on line for one or maybe even two races per year.


JJ

I know I am not racing yet, but. ^This right here.

No way I will ever pay that much for anything other than nationals, period. If I was racing right now there is only 4 races a year I care to run. I don't want a 9 hour drive or over 1k to enter. Then add tire cost on to this.

We need to control costs where we can. Just my .02

[drecords]

Idk if its time to hit the panic button yet. There is another fox under construction currently that should be racing next year. Then we have Mike and GunPilot who are looking like they'll be joining the race group soon. SE46 had 4 cars this weekend, CMC started the weekend with 5. Spec Vette was the surprise of the weekend car count wise but mostly due to the fact that their entire national car count showed up.

[Supercharged111]

We gained 5 rookies in less than a year here in RM. Local management took a different approach and it seems to be favoring the race groups. Having another CMC class is not the answer, then you'll just split your car counts between 1 and 2. The newer cars aren't near as dirt cheap as these cars, and as previously pointed out Spec E30 and Spec Miata don't seem to have any trouble attracting people. I think the trouble we face is convincing people to try and take a corner in these buckets or like Bob Denton pointed out downgrading from a newer, faster car you've been DEing in. Dollar per lap time our 260whp stick axle dinosaurs do hustle pretty damn well.

[centerville]

1 cota race= 2.5 msrc, msrh, races. Simple economics for me.

I wonder what TMS will cost?

[Den34]

I lived through CMC to CMC2 and back to CMC. I don't EVER want to do that again.

Cost is everything. The COTA event was too expensive. Just my opinion

[ShadowBolt]

I lived through CMC to CMC2 and back to CMC. I don't EVER want to do that again.

Cost is everything. The COTA event was too expensive. Just my opinion

I agree we don't need to split the class.

JJ

[BryanL]

What class did spec vette run in? Curious what their lap times were and if anyone talked to them about their tires or how they held up at Cota? Were any races longer did they fall off during the race?

Already tried to bring in the S197's and lots of testing was done but the gap is too wide. There was a time when I thought everyone was going spec iron but that seems to have fizzled for Nasa and SCCA. I have looked at talked about ASedan racers as their limited prep is close to CMC or used to be until they allowed Spec Mustang and now can run an ASA cam/tuning for 385 rwhp (not the direction I want to go). Too bad if it could be an option like Miata's doing both nasa/scca. I think that is a huge lure for those cars since the classes are strong in both and you can run more events at the same tracks. But maybe an option to get some Asedan guys to come run with us?
Jander-you are real interested in bringing new racers over and good with Will. What about doing some incentive program to give an SCCA ASedan racer half off entry to first NASA event?

Losing TWS hurt not just from having two events there a year but people doing other events, DE, etc. there helped NASA in my opinion. Getting ECR online and I'm thinking with the prep they are doing it should be a pretty good track.

Personally I lack interest in COTA at $1,200 and TMS for whatever it is in August. If I'm racing in August it will be in RM.

Records is right about not hitting the panic button. I know of a couple other CMC cars that should be for sale this summer that haven't been raced for years could help. A better schedule next year would help too.

The CMC ruleset not changing much for several years is huge as well. I am in favor of doing things that don't give advantages but provide better durability/dependability like allowing an option to replace the opti on LT1's.

But the biggest thing that we could help change or decide to change on our own is the tire issue. Find a tire as quick as the Falken that doesn't drop off for 3 events for under $1k for a set and the class improves no doubt in my mind. Only seems to be a few who argue that tires don't hurt our participation but it's not just showing up. It also hurts because a guy on an older set of tires knows he is going to be a second to seconds slower only due to tires and if on old tires you are going to have to work on setup changes that screw your car up when you put on new tires.

I think it would especially help new people looking at the series or who have just joined to be able to do more practice/DE days on the same tires we race on but not have to spend an extra few thousand that year to help get up to speed.

[64GunPilot]

Idk if its time to hit the panic button yet. There is another fox under construction currently that should be racing next year. Then we have Mike and GunPilot who are looking like they'll be joining the race group soon. SE46 had 4 cars this weekend, CMC started the weekend with 5. Spec Vette was the surprise of the weekend car count wise but mostly due to the fact that their entire national car count showed up.

DE'd at CMP (South Carolina) this weekend and graduated to HPDE3. So I will be seeing you guys at Hallett. Have now ran 3 track weekends (Roebling Road, Sebring, & CMP and having so much fun) Still a little ways to be comp license ready. Maybe next year (I deploy in October for 9 months).

I really hope the class holds together. I love my car, and I love the spirit of CMC (even though I haven't personally experienced it, you dont have to bite the apple to know its sweet).

See you guys at Hallett. Would love some in car coaching if anyone has the time.

[RichardP]

What class did spec vette run in?

There were 9 Spec Vettes and they ran in ST2. The regular ST2 cars gridded with the other ST classes while the Spec Vettes had their own green at the back of the pack. Times are at http://timingscoring.drivenasa.com although it's a little hard to tell because not even all the Corvettes in ST2 are Spec Corvettes. The best time I saw was 3 seconds faster than the CMC pole. The racing looked really good and close on track but the best lap times don't really support that it was that close...

On the Spec Corvette facebook they are claiming they are getting 5-6 events out of a set of tires. Based on what I've seen in tire wear, that's completely believable. Are thy going that long without a degradation in lap times? No clue.


Richard P.

[RichardP]

Records is right about not hitting the panic button. I know of a couple other CMC cars that should be for sale this summer that haven't been raced for years could help.

I don't think there is any reason to panic. There are still lots of CMC cars in region. They just aren't coming out to race regularly. This is much different than California where all of the CMC cars have been sold off.


Richard P.

[ShadowBolt]

I don't think there is any reason to panic. There are still lots of CMC cars in region. They just aren't coming out to race regularly. This is much different than California where all of the CMC cars have been sold off.


Richard P.

The difference to me in today and back when we had the old RA1 (taller and narrower) is COST. We ran six events per year all in or between DFW and Houston (other than Hallett). Two races were at TWS in the perfect location. Four hours from DFW, two hours from the Austin area and around an hour for the Houston guys. Cost was low for travel and for tires. I have no idea if it was true but the fastest guys claim to run on "thin to wins". Maybe that was all BS? But there was no NOLA or TMS or COTA on the schedule. Other than cost why are so many with cars staying home?

JJ

[Pranav]

I think it's universally agreed that we have to do something about the tires to really let this class continue to sustain and grow, and to a certain extent our region does not have enough in-state events to be fun. It's shitty that NOLA takes place of a second MSRH or MSRC.

I like running at COTA but not at $1199; my expectation is that the price drops next year or it gets off the calendar for something else that would get more attendance.

Us houston folk have it the hardest in that everything outside of one MSRH is a haul with exception to NOLA that no one wants to go t

Not sure what to think about TMS but again watching our breakage rates, I am worried for some of you guys running TMS at full tilt and am now myself on the fence about that event for safety concerns.

I guess I'm not sure where I was going with this thread, but it's frustrating to watch a starting pack of 6 cars whittle itself down to 2 in a 3 race weekend and I'm just watching everyone break random stuff like I used to when I first started in my early years, before I went nuclear on my car; after I get my floor professionally welded and do the fuel cell this summer its going to be really solid.

My suggestion about the newer cars was just giving us a long term clean sheet option but as was said earlier we failed with spec iron; what killed that class? Shocks or not enough cost limits?

[Pranav]

Don't let my comments about the s197/cmc2 fool anyone; after I pickup the red roller Glenn caged a long time ago, I have almost enough spares to build a second CMC car. Pretty committed to the class and the 4th gen LS, but just frustrated when I barely have anyone to race against sometimes due to mechanical attrition or a lack of interest in the event.

I guess this is a combo Toyo tires and NASA Texas venue choice/price issue.

[Sook]

I really hope the class holds together.

I don't think the class is going anywhere for quite a while.

Bryan, I ran on three weekend old RRs for Saturday. I didn't get any good data though. I made some bad setup calls and the car was out of control all weekend. Bolting on new tires definitely helped, but I don't attribute any of the issues I had at COTA to tires.

- Josh

[ShadowBolt]

I don't think the class is going anywhere for quite a while.

- Josh

To me the class going away is not what this is about. I want to class to grow or at least be as big as it has ever been.


JJ

[Sook]

Would love some in car coaching if anyone has the time.

I should be able to ride along at some point over the weekend.

- Josh

[64GunPilot]

I should be able to ride along at some point over the weekend.

- Josh

Awesome!

[Fbody383]

My personal opinion and I did the survey including a note that they had my email and car class so "they" know who I am.

I know where 3 cars are which are best described currently as economic casualties. I expect 2 will be back in some form generally speaking.

Track location and tire costs are my biggest issues. I don't mind Houston. I don't mind Cresson it's just always fallen on our spring break. Can't WAIT TO GET ECR back. But WTH, why an event in Dallas in August?

If anything I would be in the camp to go back down to 230hp but with the LS cars I don't think that's reasonable.

The ruleset secret sauce is really pretty close platform wise - I know I don't have any seat or development time to complain about the rules.

My sense is it's just a season we're going through; now I gotta go start the Hallet Grub thread.... you guys wanna eat, right?

[drecords]

I really hope the class holds together. I love my car, and I love the spirit of CMC (even though I haven't per
See you guys at Hallett. Would love some in car coaching if anyone has the time.

I'd also be willing to ride in the death seat but since I'm not an annointed NASA instructor they might not allow it.

[Trublu]

Been watching these threads over the past few months but have shied away from offering my opinion (imagine that). I loved CMC and only went to AI as I liked the development aspect, what I knew I’d miss was big fields and close racing. Anyway here it is:

1: allowing cars to turn up looking like battered dogshit does nothing to attract new folks and everything to deter them. Wrap costs about half a set of tires and is fairly easy to do, I know a girl who’d be happy to show you. Some time needs to be spent here making sure one or two cars aren’t negatively effecting growth in the group.

2: Tires
A: races are won in the shop and lost on the track. There’s a few that are complaining about tires being the woe of their racing aspirations but not spending much time learning how to make their car handle better such that whenever they hit the track they have their best foot forward. The guys up front are spending (loads) of time doing this and frankly thinking simply dropping on a fresh set of RRs fixes everything is pretty naive. On the flip side if you are interested I’d be glad to help in this area, as would most of the fast folks of CMC.

B: randomly changing tires, forsaking contingencies, with no solid data outside forum rants is simply shifting the problem and akin to kicking a can down the road. The deal NASA has with TOYO benifits CMC, why on earth would the group want to find a reason to lose that? Present solid data to NASA and TOYO to improve the tire and do more of point A

3: we all need to do more on social media to promote both classes. Daniel has been doing a great job at this lately. Remember, most of us joined because of the year end videos, yet we do nothing to compel folks that are good at pulling that together to want to spend dozens of hours doing it. We need to actively discuss how we intend to grow both groups through these areas.

These are the key issues from my perspective. And go

[drecords]

3: we all need to do more on social media to promote both classes. Daniel has been doing a great job at this lately. Remember, most of us joined because of the year end videos, yet we do nothing to compel folks that are good at pulling that together to want to spend dozens of hours doing it. We need to actively discuss how we intend to grow both groups through these areas.

These are the key issues from my perspective. And go

Agree on all points especially #3. We are averaging 500+ views on each post which I think is pretty neat and good reach. As I said after cresson I'm willing to do the video editing for our group, but it would be narcissistic of me to only post videos of myself...I'd love to be able to do a weekend recap with videos from a couple cars to try and capture some of the hard racing. I have some other ideas that I've spoken to a few of you about that I hope to launch on the social media platforms that should help at least explain the series and maybe motivate more folks to join us.

[Suck fumes]

I honestly think the TMS race was scheduled as an experiment to see what the turnout would be. If it’s good I would bet TMS would be COTA’s replacement for next year. If scca can charge $700 for a COTA entry fee than why can’t NASA??

If COTA is on the schedule next yr I may skip it and do TMS if the entry is still $1200.

Having run TMS for years with SCCA in spec miata I will tell you it is not a track to take lightly. My dad has hit the wall there before and the “soft barriers” aren’t exactly soft haha. My point is just make sure your brakes are in great shape before you run there and check over everything. You will prob see your cars top speed there aero limited of course. The TMS garages though are awesome and don't cost that much.

The scca TMS entry fees were typically $75-$100 more than the avg entry fee.

[Sook]

Some time needs to be spent here making sure one or two cars aren’t negatively effecting growth in the group.

yeah yeah, it's on my list lol

- Josh

[mach1]

I know it's been said but don't let COTA reg bring you down, it's over priced, the people vote with their wallets. I don't think CMC is dying, just an overpriced event.

CMC was much more expensive than I anticipated, I had 10k more into my CMC car than my Spec Miata AND I built the motor/trans/rear everything in the mustang.
SM I purchased the pro built motor/trans/rear and it was still much cheaper. Some of the things keeping the costs down in SM are, tires, low weight so easier on tires/brakes, have to run stock brakes, 125hp, fuel etc.

I could careless the HP or lap times, it's all about the racing IMO, CMC at 150hp, 200, 500, etc, just about the same fun factor with huge cost differences.

Parts are getting hard to find, esp for LT1, foxes, I ran into this many times with the CMC car, I would buy a new part, it was from China and shit. Everything I got for the car I would check myself to confirm it was in spec or worth a damn if possible. Ex: Brand new FRPP Damper, the rubber damper between the inside and outside wasn't installed correctly and would have failed, etc.

[ShadowBolt]

2: Tires
A: races are won in the shop and lost on the track. There’s a few that are complaining about tires being the woe of their racing aspirations but not spending much time learning how to make their car handle better such that whenever they hit the track they have their best foot forward. The guys up front are spending (loads) of time doing this and frankly thinking simply dropping on a fresh set of RRs fixes everything is pretty naive. On the flip side if you are interested I’d be glad to help in this area, as would most of the fast folks of CMC.

B: randomly changing tires, forsaking contingencies, with no solid data outside forum rants is simply shifting the problem and akin to kicking a can down the road. The deal NASA has with TOYO benifits CMC, why on earth would the group want to find a reason to lose that? Present solid data to NASA and TOYO to improve the tire and do more of point A


I have not heard a single person say they think all they need to do to be fast is purchase a new set of RR's every event but even if having new tires did not make you any faster when the guys at the front are showing up with a new set of $1200.00 tires at every event the other slower drivers (and possible new drivers) will look at that as part of the cost of racing.

I do not believe that NASA or Toyo cares about the RR heat cycle issue.

I know for sure that BL and I (and other mid pack slackers that are wanting a less expensive tire) do not spend near the time on the car that it takes to run upfront. I know we don't do DE's to get seat time. Getting a tire that does not heat cycle out is not going to put drivers like us at the front and we know that but it could save thousands of dollars per season and maybe get the cost down to attract new racers.

Jerry

[BryanL]

Been watching these threads over the past few months but have shied away from offering my opinion (imagine that). I loved CMC and only went to AI as I liked the development aspect, what I knew I’d miss was big fields and close racing. Anyway here it is:

1: allowing cars to turn up looking like battered dogshit does nothing to attract new folks and everything to deter them. Wrap costs about half a set of tires and is fairly easy to do, I know a girl who’d be happy to show you. Some time needs to be spent here making sure one or two cars aren’t negatively effecting growth in the group.

2: Tires
A: races are won in the shop and lost on the track. There’s a few that are complaining about tires being the woe of their racing aspirations but not spending much time learning how to make their car handle better such that whenever they hit the track they have their best foot forward. The guys up front are spending (loads) of time doing this and frankly thinking simply dropping on a fresh set of RRs fixes everything is pretty naive. On the flip side if you are interested I’d be glad to help in this area, as would most of the fast folks of CMC.

B: randomly changing tires, forsaking contingencies, with no solid data outside forum rants is simply shifting the problem and akin to kicking a can down the road. The deal NASA has with TOYO benifits CMC, why on earth would the group want to find a reason to lose that? Present solid data to NASA and TOYO to improve the tire and do more of point A

3: we all need to do more on social media to promote both classes. Daniel has been doing a great job at this lately. Remember, most of us joined because of the year end videos, yet we do nothing to compel folks that are good at pulling that together to want to spend dozens of hours doing it. We need to actively discuss how we intend to grow both groups through these areas.

These are the key issues from my perspective. And go

Good discussion and point bye taken on #1.

#2. I think some are missing a point about the tires. NOBODY thinks that changing tires is going to change where anyone finishes. I have felt like some think if we switch tires that it would help where I personally finish which I think is a load of crap. My bet is that the gap between the trophy girls would be larger for me. This is about finding a tire that lasts longer and is cheaper. I spoke with a former racer last night and when some people started showing up in CMC with a new set of tires every event they decided this wasn't the class for them. I know of others who stopped racing in large part due to the tires so if we have a current racer impacted by it then it's fair to say it could impact a prospective racer. (look again at what TT is doing to change this on their own and seeing people come back to their class)
Again-I don't believe for a second that a different brand of tires is going to help where I finish. This seems to the majority wanting to lower the season tire budget while only a few want to keep the status quo.

B. I disagree that NASA's deal with CMC benefits the group as a whole. I have run the numbers on sets of tires purchased by the collective group for a season and even with contingencies we would come out a whole lot better on something like a Falken. Sure the contingency benefits the podium finishers-but my bet is that the gap between the good drivers and hacks like me will be greater on a less grippier tire.

3. Great point on social media which I'm not on.

[BryanL]

I know it's been said but don't let COTA reg bring you down, it's over priced, the people vote with their wallets. I don't think CMC is dying, just an overpriced event.



Agreed! People vote with their wallets to race or go do something else for fun like a boat, jeep/motorcycles etc (I know of four specifically who chose those exact examples over racing). We can also vote with our wallets on tires and fun run or class in AIX.

[RichardP]

What class did spec vette run in? Curious what their lap times were and if anyone talked to them about their tires or how they held up at Cota? Were any races longer did they fall off during the race?

Some tire information from one of the Spec Corvette drivers:


No, they are running a 200 tread wear street tire from Falken, the 615K+. We slip and slide a lot on those tires, but that adds to the fun. Spec Corvette racers, like many of the other products we use, get the tires for nearly 50% discount. The best part is that they don't heat cycle out. I won the third race on Sunday on tires I drove on for three 30 minute sessions and one 20 minute session at COTA on Friday, I then qualified three times and did three 30 minute races over Saturday on Sunday with the same tires... wait a minute, that is not the best part. The best part is that I did four races on those same tires over a month earlier at CVR and then another Saturday of racing on them in Spec Corvette at WSIR. I have at least one more weekend on those tires and they are still capable of winning. Last year I drove to WSIR, raced and drove home in my Spec Corvette. Another weekend I raced NASA ST2 in the rain, won, drove the car to the awards ceremony at a restaurant offsite and then back to my motorhome at the track.


"Capable of winning" is maybe not the same as "no drop off in performance" depending on the competitiveness of the class but this is still good information. He has raced a bunch in classes other than Spec Corvette so he knows the tires heat cycling out game well...


Richard P.

[ShadowBolt]

Some tire information from one of the Spec Corvette drivers:




"Capable of winning" is maybe not the same as "no drop off in performance" depending on the competitiveness of the class but this is still good information. He has raced a bunch in classes other than Spec Corvette so he knows the tires heat cycling out game well...


Richard P.

Why would any Club racer want to put up with the heat cycling issue if you can do what these Vette guys are doing for 1/4th the money?

JJ

[Al Fernandez]

Interesting read. I too am of the camp that there is no significant advantage or disadvantage of a cmc car to SM, e30, e46 etc as far as age of cars and impact on parts. All ears on anything that can be done rules wise to make repairs less expensive or less frequent. Case in point recently opening up ignition components since they are now cheaper than OE.

I fully agree that it’d be wonderful to spend less money on tires. I am encouraged to see the nasa survey, maybe some good will come out of it. Changing tires is not something cmc can do as a class (directors changing the rules) but I see nothing wrong in upping the pressure to nasa national to get them to act.

Thin to win was real, I was there. I was also a trophy girl, set the tws lap record my first weekend there. Now I’m a mid pack slacker at best. Soooo...everyone else has gotten much much faster which means thin to win wasn’t actually fast.

[AI#97]

Age of the cars, other than crap quality replacement parts, is not an issue. Finding "knuckle draggers" who like to play with 20-30 year old mustangs and camaros on road courses instead of $10k c5 corvettes or M3 BMW's is the issue. Toss in the success of competing series like WRL where the racing is still cheap and fun and many of those racers are just no longer here in NASA. Go to a WRL weekend and there are 200 to 400 drivers beating on cheaper old cars for 8 hours each day and the cheapest seats for about 2 hours of seat time per day START at $1500 plus travel and lodging. The money is out there, the list of "goobers" to run these cars is getting shorter every DAY.

That being said, you need to look at those competing series to see what is making them successful and it is the fact they are finding ways to make racing cheaper. They are using 180-200 TW street tires that last multiple 8 hour races or are encouraging lower HP to keep fuel and brake costs down. SMART. Maybe CMC could set some goals to ATTEMPT to lower costs over the next couple years to make it attractive again? That goes a long way. Heck, get radical and allow ONLY RA1's again. Lose the RR entirely. Those of you who have rains could still use them and you just buy a new set of shaved RA1's to go a couple weekends. Then start rotating in sets as you use them up with a goal in year 3 to switch to NT01. Hell, allow the NT01 as an intermediate rain or dry tire... at the least, try something so there is a perception that NASA is doing SOMETHING to increase car counts instead of relying on the racers to bring in new racers. Personally, having raced and worked with just about every OTHER series in NASA, CMC is the ONLY series where the racers are the ones left to building and growing the series these days. The directors and NASA are leaving it to die on the vine....or at least that is the current perception.

We own Glenns old car and have been running it in WRL with decent success due to it being a quality build....but those cars from other classes are easily outrunning it on track with less power and smaller tires. Where do you think new racers are going to gravitate to? Gonna have to make CMC sexxy or cheap to bring folks in/back.

[drecords]

I think Craig hit the nail on the head when he said that to grow the class we have to advertise better and make an effort to field a group of cars that looks attractive. Also, we are not a race class that people typically use as a stepping stone to a 'pro' ride and I think SM benefits hugely from that as well as the ability to race both nasa and SCCA.

That being said, we have a good core group of 'regulars' in Texas and need to work hard not to lose that. I like racing with this group because it's hard, very competitive, and normally pretty clean.

So the question should be: how can we attract people to CMC when they're looking at building/buying a racecar for another class? What do we sell them?

[BryanL]

What do we sell them?

Six sets of RR's per year............that's what Nasa is trying to sell them.

[AI#97]

So the question should be: how can we attract people to CMC when they're looking at building/buying a racecar for another class? What do we sell them?

#1? Bring back ABS. Easy for 4th gens and SN95's and the fox guys are likely already running the SN95 parts so not a huge deal. Save those expensive tires and maybe end some of the contact from lockups?
#2 Allow LT1 aftermarket ignition setups. There are 3 or 4 now. Pick two, test and move forward so those older cars remain relevant without spending cubic dollars to swap to LS.
#3 Go BACK to RA1's or consider the R888r. Do something to get rid of the POS RR.
#4 Tire renegades. regionally, allow CMC racers to run NT01's if they choose, you collect points, just not Toyo bucks. RR's are supposed to be faster so this should not be a big deal right? Rookies can run Hoosiers if they want?.....maybe don't go that far?
#5 Bring back Manties....
#6 Do you test bro? Time to setup actual group testing days with the trophy girls mentoring the rooks and mid/back pack drivers. Plenty of off weekend events to make this happen.
#7 Passenger seats...load up and set the hook in new goobers at the HPDE's. Currently that is happening in Porsches, Vettes and BMW's...ya'll are nowhere to be seen. Fix that.
#8 Earn Will's attention and get him focused on growing the AI/CMC group. Make sure he understands the cars, rules and the group's needs/goals. Currently he hangs with SM and ST.
#9 Socialize with the rest of the NASATX racers as a group more. I know you guys love to BBQ together but you MUST get to know the rest of the racers and turn them into advocates for AI/CMC when you aren't around. From the outside looking in, AI/CMC can seem a bit "anti-social" to the larger NASATX event weekend. Sorry, harsh truth. Plenty of other cool people to hang with at the event and as race groups consolidate...good to get to know those folks you may be racing with soon!
#10 Ya'll need a list of available cars for sale and shops that build them for potential racers who may be interested in AI/CMC. This needs to be backed up with semi-known build costs and such to answer their questions. As a comparison, there are no less than 10 shops in Texas that build BMW racecars for NASATX events...who builds AI/CMC cars...? Have to have those answers because today's racers are NOT building cars in their garages anymore.

That's a good start....

Edit to add #11

#11...race your cars with other organizations like WRL so people know these cars are still racing!!!! We get tons of compliments on the camaro when we go to a WRL event and make V8 noises. Also more opportunity to use your cars and get seat time and set the hook for new drivers and even old ones!!! ;)

[ShadowBolt]

There are other groups at NASA events besides AI/CMC? Who knew?


JJ

[chris-CMC#35]

From my perspective as a NASA TX 'official' i'm going to add a few comments to Matt's points.
#8 - i remember a weekend when a bunch of Mustangs showed up at one of our events, invited by Todd Who, who by the way did not show up. I came to Thunder and asked for volunteers to ride with these guys. You would have thought I asked you to cut off one of your nuts. In the end, a few guys agreed to help - I clearly remember David Francis stepping up, which was greatly appreciated. Not a way to win friends.
#9 - I made a point of asking the Thunder group to come to one of the Saturday night BBQs that Will sponsors. 'not enough food, small portions, blah blah blah.' but did anyone go talk to Will and explain this? I don't know.

These are just two examples of what Matt calls "harsh truth."

And now, as as former member of the CMC Rules Committee, my two cents about tires. Leave the Toyo stickers on your cars, but run whatever tire you can all agree on. As Matt says, you won't get contingency $$, but if you hate the tire, why do you want the contingency bucks? Besides, the whole tire contingency essentially goes against the CMC vibe, which is low cost, evenly built cars, put it on the driver. During one of my years in RM, I was 1st or 2nd in every race. At the end of the season, I had collected something like 80% of all the Toyo bucks. this was back in the days of the RA-1, which means I only needed two sets of tires for the entire season. I gave away most of the bucks to other drivers. My point is that the Toyo contingency does almost nothing for the vast majority of CMC drivers, so why not dump it?

-chris

[ShadowBolt]

From my perspective as a NASA TX 'official' i'm going to add a few comments to Matt's points.
#8 - i remember a weekend when a bunch of Mustangs showed up at one of our events, invited by Todd Who, who by the way did not show up. I came to Thunder and asked for volunteers to ride with these guys. You would have thought I asked you to cut off one of your nuts. In the end, a few guys agreed to help - I clearly remember David Francis stepping up, which was greatly appreciated. Not a way to win friends.
#9 - I made a point of asking the Thunder group to come to one of the Saturday night BBQs that Will sponsors. 'not enough food, small portions, blah blah blah.' but did anyone go talk to Will and explain this? I don't know.


-chris

I don't remember the Mustang guys and unless I had car trouble i would have enjoyed riding with them.

90% of the time the food fed to the group is bad. The BBQ guy Will uses is just not good. The crap he fed to us at the COTA Nationals was the worst. No I have not told Will because he is eating it and must like it. This same guy has done many events and so far we have found it really bad. This is not because I live in the middle of the best BBQ in the world. Will lives here too.

JJ

[michaelmosty]

The Martin’s coordinated the best group activity ever last year at Hallett with the Slip and Flip and specifically coordinated it for all of Nasa TX, not just AI/CMC. Heck, Dave and Sean even picked up the slack a few years ago and did dinner for the entire Hallett event after other groups didn’t follow through with their food responsibilities. I certainly don’t think our group is segregating ourselves from the rest of the region.

I know the AI/CMC group does lots of things together but I see that as a positive of having such great people to spend time with.

I think we definitely have an opportunity to promote our series better with discussions and rides for potential future racers.

[Fbody383]

Aiight... somebody raise the truce flag and let's do some "state of the union" chatting at Hallett.

Some of us are already time and money limited, but I agree about trying to interact more with the other groups. That said, I know we'be been the hangout-together-dinner-drink group since I joined the fray. Not saying it couldn't be more inclusive, but I'll listen if somebody wants to discuss whether we moved, or the surrounding people moved.

[Supercharged111]

#7 Last season we had an event, last run of Saturday, where we racers took HPDE or whatever drivers for a ride in our race prepped cars at full race pace. There was side by side action, tires in the dirt, the whole 9. It was great, every single person got out of the passenger face with a huge smile, and the newer drivers' minds were especially blown not only by what a car feels like driven at full speed, but also how it felt to be in such proximity at that speed to other cars. That's how you set the hook. We were nose to tail, door to door with passengers. I even gave a Spec Z a push start, and because it wasn't a race and egos weren't on the line neither was the risk. We need to do it again this year, my last passenger was a fully licensed Spec Miata driver and the first was an HPDE1 student. The whole point was to set the hook. Last November, post season, we had a CMC test and tune day. We did lead follow, drove the rookies' cars, gave feedback, checked alignments, springs, swaybars, track width, etc. It can be tough to drag people out on a non-NASA weekend, I tried another in the Spring time and nobody's car was ready so as long as people end the season with a healthy car, I'd say do it either mid-season or post-season.

[chris-CMC#35]

That's okay David - I've gone back to my corner... ;-)

[Fbody383]

That's okay David - I've gone back to my corner... Dude, I'll say it in front of everybody - I think you've been a fantastic voice in this deal.

I was just trying to say it is always much more productive when we all sit around face to face and talk this stuff out.

[centerville]

As someone that is new to all this and the group, here is my .02.

First thing that attracted me to cmc was the cars then the people. While you do have to kind of search out the group its not like anyone is hiding. When I was looking for more info on cmc I found it interesting that the forums are not part of nasa. Facebook presence was next to nothing, I know Daniel is working on that. I don't see this as any different than say SM. Except I see more of the SM guys at dinner that nasa holds.

Everyone in NASA should be ambassadors for our sport. And just about everyone can do more to welcome new people or bring positive attention to what we are doing.

I go to the nasa dinners not for the food but to hang out with others that enjoy this sport. Even though I am terrible as social endeavors.

See everyone in a few days!

[centerville]

#7 Last season we had an event, last run of Saturday, where we racers took HPDE or whatever drivers for a ride in our race prepped cars at full race pace. There was side by side action, tires in the dirt, the whole 9. It was great, every single person got out of the passenger face with a huge smile, and the newer drivers' minds were especially blown not only by what a car feels like driven at full speed, but also how it felt to be in such proximity at that speed to other cars. That's how you set the hook. We were nose to tail, door to door with passengers. I even gave a Spec Z a push start, and because it wasn't a race and egos weren't on the line neither was the risk. We need to do it again this year, my last passenger was a fully licensed Spec Miata driver and the first was an HPDE1 student. The whole point was to set the hook. Last November, post season, we had a CMC test and tune day. We did lead follow, drove the rookies' cars, gave feedback, checked alignments, springs, swaybars, track width, etc. It can be tough to drag people out on a non-NASA weekend, I tried another in the Spring time and nobody's car was ready so as long as people end the season with a healthy car, I'd say do it either mid-season or post-season.

This is a great idea. Logistically not easy but a great idea.

[t500hps]

#7 Last season we had an event, last run of Saturday, where we racers took HPDE or whatever drivers for a ride in our race prepped cars at full race pace. There was side by side action, tires in the dirt, the whole 9. It was great, every single person got out of the passenger face with a huge smile, and the newer drivers' minds were especially blown not only by what a car feels like driven at full speed, but also how it felt to be in such proximity at that speed to other cars. That's how you set the hook. We were nose to tail, door to door with passengers. I even gave a Spec Z a push start, and because it wasn't a race and egos weren't on the line neither was the risk. We need to do it again this year, my last passenger was a fully licensed Spec Miata driver and the first was an HPDE1 student. The whole point was to set the hook. Last November, post season, we had a CMC test and tune day. We did lead follow, drove the rookies' cars, gave feedback, checked alignments, springs, swaybars, track width, etc. It can be tough to drag people out on a non-NASA weekend, I tried another in the Spring time and nobody's car was ready so as long as people end the season with a healthy car, I'd say do it either mid-season or post-season.

Just a small piece of info from the east coast that might be worth discussing with your directors.

The powers in our region will occasionally let some of the more veteran racers take a prospective driver/racer out for an HPDE session to "show them the ropes". It depends on how "full" the session is and it kinda sucks getting back into the car after your race is over but as you guys know, it really hooks the newbies. The good part is it doesn't cost us anything and we're already there! (it's not a separate event). Event before last I was one of 3 CMC racers that took passengers out during HPDE4. We discussed dedicated passing zones among us and really ran nose-tail giving the guys a hell of a ride. In 2.5 years we've attracted 6 new racers and have another guy who hopes to get his license this fall.

[drecords]

Here's a wild idea...what if we picked an event and asked will to include it in the event advertisement where we charged some $$ value for a ride in a CMC car that would get donated to a not for profit charity? Probably would be fun for wives/interested spectators/crewmembers to see a track at speed and do some good as well as get folks interested in the series.

[mach1]

Just noticed for Hallett they are now charging for the food, I usually have my family at the track and we like going out to eat depending on what track we are at so we don't usually participate in the NASA food event.

I also notice the AI/CMC group has been the most friendly in general and more of a family feeling from my perspective. It would be good to tour different NASA regions to see how they are doing things and how everyone gets along.

I think the ride along idea is great if it's something that could be managed.

[Sook]

I got hooked during a ride along in Richard's AI car. The only real issue is the logistics of doing ride alongs on a race weekend, probably doable with enough forward planning though. I don't want to put a bunch of extra time on my race tires, but I usually have a set of junkers with me. I also will hop into safe passenger seats to give pointers.

On an instructional weekend I'll drive a different passenger every session with some wheel-wheel action, I've helped my friend Craig help sell a bunch of Miatas off his List that way.

- Josh

[Sook]

Here's a wild idea...what if we picked an event and asked will to include it in the event advertisement where we charged some $$ value for a ride in a CMC car that would get donated to a not for profit charity? Probably would be fun for wives/kids/crewmembers to see a track at speed and do some good as well as get folks interested in the series.

Kids can be tricky, I think because of liabilities n w/e. Parade laps are another cool thing, then you can let wives/kids/crewmembers take the car for a very slow lap or two.

[drecords]

Kids can be tricky, I think because of liabilities n w/e. Parade laps are another cool thing, then you can let wives/kids/crewmembers take the car for a very slow lap or two.

Edited...that post may or may not have been made after being overserved at the hotel bar last night.

[ShadowBolt]

Jay took my wife for a ride in his Mach 1 back 10 years ago during a Driver's Edge event at MSRC. You could not get her back in a race car for six figures. She has zero need for speed. She was sick for hours.

JJ

[AI#97]

Some of ya'll getting involved in Comp School and being the racers/mentors for the newbs is a good way to latch onto the TT guys and HPDE4 crew looking for ideas on what to buy and where to go next.

I won't be able to make it to hallett but hopefully my points can start some discussion and help the group grow. Ya'll be safe and have fun.