40 minute races for 2007?

[Mike Bell]

Since we've got the banquet scheduled for mid-January I was wondering if we could get a decision on when/where we are going to try and do 40 minute races for the 2007 season in time to notify NASA TX? Shannon might appreciate some advance notice on our request.

This might give our DFW brethren a break on travelling home from so many Houston area events if we could work in a 40 minute race on Sunday early, then let them head on out?

I'll be voting for the cooler weather events but with the cool suit I could probably stick it out during the summer events as well. Nationals guys, did the 40 minute regional races give you any help for your national event?

[GlennCMC70]

the 1 or 2 40's we ran did help. i would have liked to have gotten one more before Nats though. i think i held back a little too much trying to save the car for the end.

i think to prevent the issues a short notice caused last year, we could pick the events we run a 40 @ w/ @ least a month notice. cooler months are better, but we should count out the warm months either. it could very well be 90 degrees in Ohio next year. learning to deal w/ the heat and its affects on your thought proccess is important. i have no desire to run a 40 in the wet or 30 degree weather. so count out feb 07.

[TEXAST1]

I think yous guys should always run 2 races on Sat and 1 40 min on Sun.

It was my first 40min at the Championships where I found out my diff cooler can't keep up that long. :cry:

[jeffburch]

I'm for 40's all the time.
jb

[oz98cobra]

Running 40 minute races all the time would suck as far as I'm concerned. Yes we probably need to run a couple mid season because the nationals are 40 minute races (wish they weren't either), but not every darn weekend.

40 minute races are BORING IMO - all the action takes place in the first 15 minutes, then the rest of the time is a strung out single file procession, with only the odd pass here because someone is on a charge from the back, or another guy is struggling with his car? It's the close wheel to wheel action in a whole bunch of cars that I crave on race weekends, otherwise I might as well just run DEs? I'd rather have more exciting short sprint races in a weekend, than just a couple of boring processions!

And getting home early on Sunday afternoon should NOT be a valid reason for choosing race length - it's racing for cryng out loud, and we are luckier than most that the majority of our race weekends are within a 5 hour haul for most of the competitors! If you want to be home early on Sunday afternoons, take up golf instead! ;)

[gt40]

40 minute races are BORING IMO - all the action takes place in the first 15 minutes, then the rest of the time is a strung out single file procession, with only the odd pass here because someone is on a charge from the back, or another guy is struggling with his car? It's the close wheel to wheel action in a whole bunch of cars that I crave on race weekends, otherwise I might as well just run DEs? I'd rather have more exciting short sprint races in a weekend, than just a couple of boring processions!IMHO, short 20-minute races and 40 minute races are entirely different beasts.

A 20-minute race is a sprint with lots of action -- do whatevcer you can to claw your way to the front for the podium.

A 40-minute race requires a lot more strategy. Run too hard at first and you and the car may be used up at the end. Run too conservatively at first and you may not be within striking distance at the end.

I'd like to see more of a mix of the two for the driver's sake.

For spectators to remain interested throughout a 40-minute race, you really need a good pair of race commentators like we saw at Mid-O. They really do make a big difference.

[oz98cobra]

IMHO, short 20-minute races and 40 minute races are entirely different beasts.

A 20-minute race is a sprint with lots of action -- do whatevcer you can to claw your way to the front for the podium.

A 40-minute race requires a lot more strategy. Run too hard at first and you and the car may be used up at the end. Run too conservatively at first and you may not be within striking distance at the end.
...


In theory yes, but the reality is that on the spec Toyos and power levels we run, there is very little strategy required - you have to run it like a sprint race regardless or get left behind - there just isn't that much difference in lap times between the start and end of a 40 minute race that "saving the car" at the start will enable you to come back at the finish. But this is part of the problem I have with the 40 minute races - if strategy did come into play, then it might actually be interesting?

I used to think the same thing when I raced bikes - anything over 30 minutes is a waste of time (and money!) - unless it is an endurance race of a couple hours or more where strategy definately comes into play - I used to do a 3 hour and a 6 hour bike race with multiple riders, tire changes, fuel stops, etc. - now they were interesting!

But of course, this is just my opinion - I'm sure everyone has a different one?

[AI#97]

For spectators to remain interested throughout a 40-minute race, you really need a good pair of race commentators like we saw at Mid-O. They really do make a big difference.

Spectators get board at the current events until we get some closer action going.

Only strategy I saw in April was waiting for others to make mistakes... I ran the car flat out for 36 minutes and never really noticed the tires going away but we weren't exactly running qual laps each lap... Only other strategy that came into play was fuel consumption and minimum weights....mostly for the cmc guys because I don't think there are any AI cars even close to their minimum weights!!! :lol:

[Mike Bell]

For spectators to remain interested throughout a 40-minute race, you really need a good pair of race commentators like we saw at Mid-O. They really do make a big difference.

Spectators get board at the current events until we get some closer action going.



Closer action??? WTF?? Can't get much closer than the CMC racing I've seen in Texas so far Matt. You need to step away from the steering wheel, download some CMC videos and watch (add popcorn if you like..................) :lol:

[AI#97]

For spectators to remain interested throughout a 40-minute race, you really need a good pair of race commentators like we saw at Mid-O. They really do make a big difference.

Spectators get board at the current events until we get some closer action going.



Closer action??? WTF?? Can't get much closer than the CMC racing I've seen in Texas so far Matt. You need to step away from the steering wheel, download some CMC videos and watch (add popcorn if you like..................) :lol:

Sorry Mike, I meant 40 cars in extreme close proximity like the spec miata races....not saying an SM race gets attention, but that car count, that close with the V8 rumble would get people on the fence for 40 minutes.... Watching an AI car lap the field or put 1/2 a lap on the second car isn't even any fun to watch in 20 minutes! :wink: :P

[Mike Bell]

Last time I saw, there weren't 40 SM cars in the field anymore. More like 25 on a good weekend, well, ok, more like 15 of them and 6 of those were SRX7 cars. SM has left the building it seems.

Rob, Michael and I went up to the stands to "spectate" at the last NASA TX event, the SM group spread out pretty quickly after the first spin, err, I mean first turn. :lol:

[marshall_mosty]

...because I don't think there are any AI cars even close to their minimum weights!!!

Speak for yourself bubba... well at least to the '06 ruleset :)

I'm all about letting the 3000+ lb cars blow their tires and brakes so I can work my mojo in a braking zone at the end of the race. I could make 8 spots on David Capps at the end of a straight. Our race was like a big accordion.

[mitchntx]

I have one of the heaviest cars on the track and am probably in the worst shape of any of you.

I'd like to see ALL races be 40 minute races.

But, I think it would only be fair to the WHOLE group to at least decide in advance (pre-season) which races are gonna be 40s and how they would count towards the points.

A lot of participation strategies are developed very early on to help with a racer's balance of budget and home life.

[AI#97]

I have one of the heaviest cars on the track and am probably in the worst shape of any of you.

I'd like to see ALL races be 40 minute races.

But, I think it would only be fair to the WHOLE group to at least decide in advance (pre-season) which races are gonna be 40s and how they would count towards the points.

A lot of participation strategies are developed very early on to help with a racer's balance of budget and home life.

How about 2 30's on saturday and a 40 on Sunday? Just a thought.

By the way Marshall, there is going to be some serious surgery on AI 97 once I find out my fate in a couple weeks....think about selling me some ballast if all goes well!! :wink:

[GlennCMC70]

as for points- what do you guys think about giving double points for a 40 and counting it as two races? or we could score it as two races. that way way the number of drops will not change like they did this season. if we deside on this, we will not have to worry about last minute changes to the format.
thoughts??

[David Love AI27]

as for points- what do you guys think about giving double points for a 40 and counting it as two races? or we could score it as two races. that way way the number of drops will not change like they did this season. if we deside on this, we will not have to worry about last minute changes to the format.
thoughts??

There is no way I'll ever be able to afford to go to nationas so I would forgo the 40 min races... if we have 4/year that would be 8 drops... I think 5 drops should be the standard because it equals 1 full event plus 1 race and they shouldn't change due to number of races to avoid confusion

[GlennCMC70]

drops are always 20% of the total number of races. if the total number of races changes, then so will the # of drops. if you count a 40 as a single race, there will be fewer total drops. if you count a 40 as 2 races, the number of drops remains the same as if we ran all races as 20's. w/ 24 planned races we have 4.8 drops. that will get rounded to 5.
the 20% rule is in place because there is no quarantee that we will get 4 races per weekend. realize that most regions only get 12 races out of a 6 weekend season. if 5 of those were drops, that would be almost half. thus the reason for the %.

[Mike Bell]

I sort of like the idea of rewarding those who podium in a 40 minute race with double points. Seems reasonable to me but I'll let the smarter folks here figure that part out.

My main point of asking here about 40 minute races is to get some sort of plan together BEFORE the January meeting so we could let NASA TX know what AI/CMC wants in time for them to incorporate it into the schedule.

As for the merit of 40 minute races, seems that the NATIONAL folks feel it is a worthy test so I'd think we should plan on the same. I'm really hoping to make it up to Mid-Ohio in 2007 so I'd like to be prepared as much as possible. :)

Now, I may change my mind after a 40 minute race in 100 degree heat at TWS in August lol. :shock:

[GlennCMC70]

i think giving NASA TXthe same notice we want them to give us is only fair. also remember what happened @ the Feb MSR-H event of '06. due to daylight savings time we ran the dark race. we almost lost a race for the weekend due to daylight issues. we may want to consider doing it for that event.

as points awards, i think we should score it the same, and put that score down in two colums. 1st thru last gets their score written down 2 times.

[mitchntx]

I don't particularly agree with double points. rewarding or penalizing x2 for a bad or great race seems unfair.

A racer should get points for the races they compete in, not a phantom race.

[GlennCMC70]

how about if we raced for 20 scored the race and the next race we started as we finished in the earlier race? this would be the same as that but we would start w/ the lead we had @ the end of the 20. i see no issue in giving 100 points 2 times for running 2 20 minute races as one.

obviously this only seems populare amoung a few. so i'm not sure how this will work out.

[AllZWay]

Can I say I don't care which it is 20 or 40....double or not ? :lol:

I just want to race and don't care for the details. :P

[Todd Covini]

Here are my thoughts...as a racer, and not a director.

1) I could care less if a race is 20 or 30 or 40 minutes long, as long as I know when the schedule comes out (or at least in the driver's meeting that morning) that's fine with me. The # of races per weekend is more important to me.

2) The # of races in our weekend is really NASA's responsibility and ultimately out of our control. NASA has done a great job over the years of granting our wishes (4/wkd) in this area, and we really should appreciate their efforts in this area. The # of races per weekend is primarily driven by the size of the NASA event and # of other race groups they have to fit in. The "size of the event" is usually not known until the week before due to late entries. ("Late"= <2 wks prior...I think as a region, TX racers are probably the latest registrars.) As NASA grows in size, it will be increasingly difficult to justify letting AI/CMC get 4 races while all other groups get 3. (This is why the 3 race model is looking more attractive if the other groups grow in size.) If things remain static (which we hope they don't), then maybe they'll continue to grant us 4 races per weekend. However, a 20-20-40 minute 3-race weekend may soon be the way to go.) We'll definately get this nailed down with Clifton/Shannon before January.

3) I'm against double points. A race is a race...usually double points are something that a sanctioning body uses to assure that people come to the event. (i.e.- if there was only 1 points race for the entire weekend, folks might not show up...however, if it were quadruple points, folks can't afford to miss it since it's equally weighted with all other "normal race weekends") I like to think that our events are more about getting together, gettting on track and having fun. I hope the day never comes that the plastic trophies and piddly points are the sole reasons to prevent me from coming to an AI/CMC event, it's soooo much more than that. :wink:

-=- Todd

[AI#97]

Todd, while I would to share your wish that "other" run groups will grow here in TX, I think what we saw this year, and even in our own group, the car counts are dwindling and the event at TWS to share time with the TSRS guys in an effort to get car counts up is showing that maybe AI/CMC should be on track MORE often. Personally, I would like to see 4 30 minute races in a weekend. That's only another 20 minutes per day which is only one race group to drop off, ie formula V....with 2 more that could/may disappear anyway.

Granted all this is just speculation but we should fight to grow our series in both car count and track time as the premier series for NASA and NASA TX...we should NOT even begin to accept scaling back the very series that is the anchor for racing in TX...

More over, I would like to see the lunchtime parade lap turn into a ride along program where some of us have passenger seats in the cars and do exhibition "races" to get some of the more serious HPDE guys a taste for interest in joining us. Don't know the insurance ramifications of that but it seems to work at "other" events to get people hooked if anything to return to HPDE and grow that car count. Our roles should be as ambassadors of the series to make it grow...not the mascots that just sit around a look good while our track time gets cut to bore the crowd watching a race of 4 cars for 30 minutes.

I am also fine with GPC running with us by qual time. It has seemed to work out OK when gridded by qual time or split start. Maybe THAT is what gets us the 30 minute races...?

Just my $0.02

[GlennCMC70]

who logged in under Matt's user ID?


good post Matt. if all race groups had the car count ours has, NASA TX would be doing very well.
what other class's have 23 (CMC) points collecting drivers? i'm not up on the AI count, but it aint weak either.

i think NASA's biggest issue is the start time in the mornings. the track shout be hot by 7am or sun up. and more so in the hotest part of the summer. this would grant them an extra hour each day. there are 3 run groups that could run in that time.

[jeffburch]

The management doesn't care about DE.

jb

[AI#97]

The management doesn't care about DE.

jb

That may be the case however if you look at the model for NASA on the east coast....DE is what pays the track rental and the rest of the bills...

[Rob Liebbe]

Four 30 minute races - that would be cool!

[marshall_mosty]

I vote for 4 30 minute races...

[GlennCMC70]

i think the issue w/ NASA TX is time in the day. they either have to do more combining of the groups or drop some groups from the schedule. no-one wants to see groups dropped, but devoting an entire 20 minutes to 4 cars is just plain <insert belittling comment here>. for NASA TX to consider dropping us to a 3 race weekend is not wise if they choose to keep accomodating small car count groups in a way they would not/will not accomodate us. as i said before, the day needs to be started earlier and groups need to be combined better into higher car counts. i saw almost 60 cars on track @ Mid Ohio. before i had to run w/ that many cars, i thought it was crazy. now ithink 35-40 should be standard practice. this also means the possibility of combining HPDE guys into one group if the need is there. we pay a premium for our track time, we should be allowed to get more track time. if the HPDE guys pay $75 to $100 less than us, then they should be the ones to get high car count run groups and less track time.

and yes, 4 30 minute races would be ideal for all in my book too.

[gt40]

this also means the possibility of combining HPDE guys into one group if the need is there. we pay a premium for our track time, we should be allowed to get more track time.I mentioned this a few weeks ago...

Drop HPDE entirely. There are plenty of organizations doing HPDE.

Instead, have one group of Racecraft students. Partner with other organizations to insure a steady supply of Racecraft students who've outgrown HPDE lapping sessions.

The fact is, NASA in a racing organization. I've never felt that HPDE really was a good fit, especially when Racecraft students are mixed in.

[Mike Bell]

I did my second DE ever back in 2001 with NASA TX. I wasn't on the track with RaceCraft students. HPDE4 is the group for that. Once I stepped up and entered Racecraft (2 years later) out of all 20+ HPDE 4 students, only 3 of us were RaceCraft back then. Not one problem with it that I recall.

"The fact is"??? Yeah, right - according to who's book of facts???

[GlennCMC70]

i too did a few DE's w/ NASA. i dont think NASA should put alot of focus in DE's though. how much is "alot"? who knows. but the wheel-2-wheel part of NASA is what makes them different from other DE orgs. that difference is the ONLY reason NASA is here today. therefore, racing is what should be the focus of NASA.
i did 90% of my DE's from 1999 to 2004 w/ someone other than NASA. and there was a good reason. but when it came time to go racing, NASA had what i wanted. racing class's that kept spending in check.

[mitchntx]

This is getting WAY off topic ....

BUt I think that DE's should pay the bills. And there is no reason for it not too. There are LOTS of folks on the waiting list of TDE and they have 10-12 weekends a year.

The problem is ... time. No way to get 2 or 3 run groups of DEs and then the 15 race groups NASA-Tx tries to accommodate.

Solution?

Book 12 dates a year and offer DE run groups at each. But only designate 6 as AI/CMC/GPC/whatever and the other 6 as Miata/RX7/Open wheel/whatever.

We get more run time, NASA-Tx gets more revenue.

I should be president of this whole thing ...

[Boudy]

I like 4 30's. Sounds like a fun.

Mitch: I've heard that the number of events were cut back as some of last year's were not profitable. I guess to make 12 profitable, other factors would have to change to improve car counts. And yeah, I was thinking of you for president just recently.

Boudy

[Todd Covini]

This is getting WAY off topic ....

BUt I think that DE's should pay the bills. And there is no reason for it not too. There are LOTS of folks on the waiting list of TDE and they have 10-12 weekends a year.

The problem is ... time. No way to get 2 or 3 run groups of DEs and then the 15 race groups NASA-Tx tries to accommodate.

Solution?

Book 12 dates a year and offer DE run groups at each. But only designate 6 as AI/CMC/GPC/whatever and the other 6 as Miata/RX7/Open wheel/whatever.

We get more run time, NASA-Tx gets more revenue.

I should be president of this whole thing ...

Mitch is spot-on. "Warren for President!"

HPDE's "fill the pipe" and racers come out the other end.
The West Coast has nearly 12 events and over 300 cars at each event. The race groups only attend some of those events and the HPDE folks look on the "visiting" race groups like rock stars.

I started in HPDE and never-ever thought that I'd race.
(I'm a lover...not a racer.)
...and so it goes for many, many of the HPDE students.
Not everyone gets "distilled" into a racer, however, with a much bigger feeder pool, you're always ensured to have some racers coming out of the mix.

Relying on other HPDE organizations to bring in our Racecraft students to feed our racing groups is a "path frought with peril".

-=- T

[mitchntx]

If you scale back, you lose participants, especially if you begin chopping their track time.

Think about it .... why would I go to a DE with NASA at $285 and less track time (140 minutes and 20 minutes combined) when I could go to TDE for $275 with more track time (200 minutes ... 8 25 minute sessions)?

Also, limiting the number of visits to a track makes limits a DE student's ability to schedule. DE participants aren't dedicated racers ... they find a hole in their schedlue and look at what's available, instead of teh other way around.

So reducing the number of event weekends just drives away customers, not fill the coffers. Think about it ... why is that Schwallenberg can sell out 12 events a year and NASA-Tx can't make car count in 6?

[marshall_mosty]

Dealing with hours in a day is interesting... From my year of instructing with NASA, I have noticed that HPDE 1/2 (Group 1) and HPDE 3/4 (Group 2) are MUCH smaller on Sunday as they were on Saturday. Most HPDE 2 drivers are at the point where they don't necessarilly want an instructor so I would vote to move HPDE 1/2 and 3/4 together for at least two of the afternoon Sunday sessions. That would open up a total of 50 minutes of Sunday track time to lengthen other groups races. We could all run 2 30's on Sunday if NASA adopts this type of format.

Just my opinion, as an observer...

[GlennCMC70]

good points Marshall.

[marshall_mosty]

I just got off the phone with Shannon regarding my post. I sent it to her in an email prior to my call so she could see what we were discussing.

Here are the main points of our conversation:

1. HPDE 1/2 and 3/4 cannot be combined for the entire weekend due to a conflict with the national NASA philosophy of HPDE and RaceCraft. Also, insurance compliance can be an issue with mixing RaceCraft with beginner HPDE.

2. Shannon did say that we "may" be able to group them together for one session on Sunday afternoon. This would gain us approx 25 minutes for the organization.

3. NASA TX is getting a "coordinator" for the HPDE/Time Trials/RaceCraft groups to try and grow the "feeder" groups to eventually bring more racers to the race groups.

4. We discussed the issue with the amount of “hot track” during the racing day. I expressed “our” concern regarding having the track go hot so late in the morning and go cold relatively early in the evening.

Shannon said that she and Clifton were going to discuss this and try everything in their power to maximize the amount of track time everyone receives during a race weekend.

5. The NASA TX website is being revised to add profile sections and to add a “info” section for the different tracks we race at to give racers information regarding specifics about the way the tracks work.
a. What time to the gates close on Friday?
b. Can cars be dropped off Friday night? If so, is there a charge.
c. Are pets allowed on the premises?
d. What time is the track allowed to go hot? (Noise restrictions, emergency crew availability, etc.)
e. What time does the track go cold?

6. The website will “hopefully” also include a “bio” section to help introduce the racers to those watching from cyberspace. Putting names with faces with cars and with their outside of racing life will help grow our series when everyone sees that we are all normal people… except for Corey… :D

7. Problems/Concerns/Suggestions cannot be resolved unless they are brought to NASA’s attention. I know that our dispute resolution protocol is to go through our series director, but I personally think that if you have a suggestion for NASA directly, you can send an email directly to Shannon. She answered mine in 15 minutes and we were on the phone within 30 minutes of me sending the email. Pretty prompt service, IMHO.

If “we” bring criticism or concern, it is much more helpful to NASA TX to also bring a proposed solution, or at least a rough idea of how to solve the problem. Just bitching and saying “I don’t like ABC for 123 reason” doesn’t help solve the problem.

8. Shannon is trying to work out all the rough “improvements” for NASA TX 2007 before December 15th. She and Jay will be out of the country for a few weeks on vacation in Switzerland…. lucky…..

9. Shannon did say that both she and Jay were going to try very hard to make our banquet. Current obligations have them in Austin Saturday morning, but they hope to be able to drive up for the banquet that evening.



It was a very productive conversation. I just expressed my ideas, concerns, and suggestions on behalf of our group. I mainly just talked about how to maximize our track time since we are the “premiere” group for NASA TX now that Spec Bumble Bee isn’t as strong as it used to be.


Hopefully what I discussed didn’t ruffle anyone’s feathers. I didn’t mean to if it did. If it did, take some valium or something and calm down…

See you guys at the banquet… hopefully 4 30’s are in our future!!!

[GlennCMC70]

way to take charge Marshall.
i would have liked to see them come here and answer our questions on their "extra" time instead of us bothering them via a phone call @ what could be an inconvenient time. i know there are umpteen milloin racer web sites, but if would be nice to see them active here. i see JWL and others very active on the AI forums.

[Mike Bell]

Man, you guys crack me up. I start a post about 40 minute races and you've turned it into "we want MORE track time via 4 x 30 minute races" lol.

Seriously, after Todd's post warning that we may actually lose our previous 4 x 20 races per weekend what are the odds of getting 4 x 30 races? How does a 30 minute race help those who are preparing for Nationals? (IIRC, that was the main force behind getting 40 minute races to begin with?).

I think we need to get our "wants" straight before we take them up the hill, poor Covini might be lobbying for changes and we're calling Shannon directly with a different message? (not slamming you Marshall, just trying to get us all on the same page)

I think January's banquet might be too late in the process for some of these items we're discussing to be presented to NASA TX.

[marshall_mosty]

instead of us bothering them via a phone call @ what could be an inconvenient time.

Glenn,
I called Shannon, not the other way around. She sent an email to call if I was up... I was so I called.

Mike,
Like I said, I hopefully didn't step on anyone's feet. I was just discussing some things that "I" think will make NASA better. I wasn't throwing any propaganda at Shannon, just small ideas and areas where we have concern.

Most of my last post came from Shannon directly and was not prompted by me.

Regarding 4 30 minute races per weekend, I was lobbying that to Shannon as a "starting point" for more track time... not that it was what was 100% wanted by the entire group.


I'm just trying to communicate some of the information that was exchanged so people aren't "in the dark".

[GlennCMC70]

i understand Marshall and didnt mean for it to come across as you doing a bad thing. just that its the main reason i dont call and do "this" over the phone. those guys get a milion phone calls and emails a day about NASA stuff. it could be overwhelming. the formatt will let them answer at their convinence. i think the 30 minute races are a double edge sword. the qual races are 20 and there are 2 of them. the main is 40. a 30 will not teach you the pace of getting it done now for the 20, and will not teach you the durration you need to do a 40. how about 2 30's and a 40?

[Mike Bell]

Marshall,

Like I said, I wasn't slamming you for calling. In fact, most of the news you reported is stuff I'd expect NASA TX to be sending out to ALL of their race groups and perhaps they will after they get it all finalized. Most of it is admin related (website updates/additions, new "coordinator" position, etc).

More track time? That's a good thing IMHO. I was just laughing about how we went from Covini's warning about possibly losing track time to asking for more - what a fun group we are to ride herd on lol.

[AI#97]

the overall suggestion summary is that AI/CMC gets more track time because WE have the car counts to support it. How about the groups that don't have the car counts only get one 30 minute race per day as a start...if they don't make the count, bump off the schedule. Put the ball in their court to "earn" track time.

I have also heard mention of going to the CALI format with one race per day...sorry, but that just isn't what I am looking for.

United front to NASATX?...your right! However, we need a little initial input from NASATX on who they are bringing to the table for run groups next year if we are going to not waste time formulating OUR plan. If they come out and say there are going to be 12 run groups next year instead of 9, then obviously we have a bigger problem.

How about a run down of session groups.

AI/CMC...GPC
Spec7, spec Miata, legends
HPDE 1/2
HPDE 3/4

I know I am forgetting someone....? Or did they all leave already.

Ok, how about group #5 just be everything else not in the above groups?

It shouldn't be very difficult to do 5 run groups per day with ANY length of race/Qual/practice....other than grid assignments. :shock:

[Waco Racer]

but if would be nice to see them active here.

What am I, chopped liver? :(

I have been reading this thread and I agree that this group needs more track time. I was just waiting for a vote to unified voice to comment. There a many things that are in the works for next year. One thing in particular is the schedule. The event in October is going to be a guidline for every event next year - no more over booking. I would really like to have a "Ford" day and "GM" day at one of the events next year. It would be great for you guys to help get some of your club buddies out for a car show or for them to participate in HPDE.

I actually prefer a phone call over message boards. I don't get as many calls as you might think. Part of my job description is Class Development and I would gladly discuss any ideas to help AI/CMC. Call me, this time of year is really slow for the A/C business.

254-644-9310

[Mike Bell]

Phones work both ways, PM'd you my cell number. If NASA TX wants to solicit input that's great by me.

If I need to send a message upstairs I'll stick with the current chain-of-command structure, we're down one Series Director and I don't want to undermine the last remaining one!

[mitchntx]

Phones work both ways, PM'd you my cell number. If NASA TX wants to solicit input that's great by me.

If I need to send a message upstairs I'll stick with the current chain-of-command structure, we're down one Series Director and I don't want to undermine the last remaining one!

With Todd's retirement looming on the horizon, it appears that Marshall has stepped up to plate to fill the director's role.

Not a bad choice, if I say so.

[mitchntx]

but if would be nice to see them active here.

What am I, chopped liver? :(



hmmm ... didn't think of you as the meat in the sandwich, more of a condiment ... 8)

[marshall_mosty]

With Todd's retirement looming on the horizon, it appears that Marshall has stepped up to plate to fill the director's role.
My wife definately would NOT let that happen. She's already bitching about the time I spend on these boards after work...


Not a bad choice, if I say so.
Aww Schucks... :)

[GlennCMC70]

sorry Clifton, but i was talking about Shannon and those who deside our fate. i have obviously underestimated your role and the power you have to guide our destiny. please accept my apology.

[Waco Racer]

I am the one that sets the schedule and helps to bring in visiting series so I thought I would offer to help in the decision making process. I have inside information and I can be bribed! :wink:

I know that this is a serious discussion and I am here to help. Call me or send me a PM and I'll call you.

[Mike Bell]

Forget the serious discussions, I had fun speaking with Clifton. (even if he is a member of the "dark side" lol.)

Bribes, hmmm - been known to carry a spare twenty on occasion........ :lol:

[Waco Racer]

but if would be nice to see them active here.

What am I, chopped liver? :(



hmmm ... didn't think of you as the meat in the sandwich, more of a condiment ... 8)

I "relish" the opportunity to talk with anyone. "Ketchup" with you later!

[AI#97]

sorry Clifton, but i was talking about Shannon and those who deside our fate. i have obviously underestimated your role and the power you have to guide our destiny. please accept my apology.

Glenn, for the love of God, it's "decide"... I let it slide 4 or 5 times now but geesh!!!! Friggin' F-body drivers! :wink:

[GlennCMC70]

tell ya what Matt, you spell for me and i'll drive for you, deal?

lets rename this site to C-C.com/jr?

dayum, dude, give it a rest.

[Mike Bell]

Clifton,

More track time is appreciated. Given your comment about the October schedule being used as a guideline for future events, is it pretty much a given that groups 5 and 8 will be combined?

Will there continue to be a group 3? (formula vee) I seem to recall seeing only 4 entries on the grid for this group. For those like me with short memories, here's the groups per last October's event schedule:

Group 1 HPDE 1&2
Group 2 HPDE 3&4, Comp students are in this group
Group 3 Formula Vee
Group 4 <blank>
Group 5 AI, AIX, AIV,CMC
Group 6 Spec Miata Challenge
Group 7 SRX7, BG, PerformanceTouring E-H, Honda Challenge 4-5, Legends (LP,LM,LS), Allison Legacy (AL), Se7ens 1-5, Spec Neon, SE-R Cup
Group 8 GPC 1-2 & X; GTS 1-5 and U; ASC; PerformanceTouring A-D, R and U; Panoz; HC1-3 & U,Spec SRT, 944 Spec, 944 Cup, Factory Five Racing Challenge (FFR)
Group 9 Time Trial only Session
Group 10 <blank>

[marshall_mosty]

I would vote for the following "race groups"

Saturday
1. Group 1 HPDE 1&2

2. Group 2 HPDE 3&4, Comp students are in this group

3. Group 5 AI, AIX, AIV,CMC & Group 8 GPC 1-2 & X; GTS 1-5 and U; ASC; PerformanceTouring A-D, R and U; Panoz; HC1-3 & U,Spec SRT, 944 Spec, 944 Cup, Factory Five Racing Challenge (FFR)

4. Group 6 Spec Miata Challenge & Group 7 SRX7, BG, PerformanceTouring E-H, Honda Challenge 4-5, Legends (LP,LM,LS), Allison Legacy (AL), Se7ens 1-5, Spec Neon, SE-R Cup

5. Group 9 Time Trial only Session

Group 3 Formula Vee **Eliminated**


Sunday
1. Group 1 HPDE 1&2 & Group 2 HPDE 3&4, Comp students are in this group

2. Group 5 AI, AIX, AIV,CMC & Group 8 GPC 1-2 & X; GTS 1-5 and U; ASC; PerformanceTouring A-D, R and U; Panoz; HC1-3 & U,Spec SRT, 944 Spec, 944 Cup, Factory Five Racing Challenge (FFR)

3. Group 6 Spec Miata Challenge & Group 7 SRX7, BG, PerformanceTouring E-H, Honda Challenge 4-5, Legends (LP,LM,LS), Allison Legacy (AL), Se7ens 1-5, Spec Neon, SE-R Cup

4. Group 9 Time Trial only Session

Group 3 Formula Vee **Eliminated**

[Mike Bell]

Well, if I owned a Formula Vee I wouldn't be too happy with that option. How about combining groups 3 into group 6? I'm not sure what laptimes the FV's run but it can't be too far off from BG/Legends is my guess.

To repeat myself, I'm against group 5 and 8 being combined.
<waiting for the wrath of Mixon to come down on me like rain>

[jeffburch]

If groups must run together they should be stacked by qual times.
jb

[Mike Bell]

If groups must run together they should be stacked by qual times.
jb

But we don't even do that within our own run group after the MSRC double-yellow problem, right?

[Rob Liebbe]

I would vote for the following "race groups"

3. Group 5 AI, AIX, AIV,CMC & Group 8 GPC 1-2 & X; GTS 1-5 and U; ASC; PerformanceTouring A-D, R and U; Panoz; HC1-3 & U,Spec SRT, 944 Spec, 944 Cup, Factory Five Racing Challenge (FFR)



Wow - that's a lot in one group - our group. I personally don't want to be on the track with the Factory Five Cars and haven't been too impressed with the Panoz cars either. Split into two with CMC, AI, AIX, Group 8 like we've done in the past and put all the others in another group.

I also feel that the Miatas, RX7's, Hondas, Neons, Civics could group together effectively.

The October event seemed to have a lot of track space in some groups. By being more track-efficient, everyone/all groups could see more track time.

Respectfully submitted,

[CMC17]

3. Group 5 AI, AIX, AIV,CMC & Group 8 GPC 1-2 & X; GTS 1-5 and U; ASC; PerformanceTouring A-D, R and U; Panoz; HC1-3 & U,Spec SRT, 944 Spec, 944 Cup, Factory Five Racing Challenge (FFR)

If I see groups 5 and 8 combined again, I will not run until we have our own run group. No drama added here, just a line in the sand.

[mitchntx]

If the issue is the Group 8 guys lapping the group 5 guys, then the solution would be 15 minute races.

Then the group 8s wouldn't have enough time to come around and lap the slower run groups.

So, who's in for six 15 minute races per weekend?

[Mike Bell]

15 minutes, not enough time to get he Bimmer out of the mud Mitch.

C'mon man, I thought you were President!!??

[AI#97]

Guys, I think we have been spoiled by having our own group for some time now. REAL racing with NASA on the East coast has 70 car fields with 10-15 seconds a lap covering first to 70th place. It's just another element in racing in multiclass fields. Until we get 40-50 AI/CMC cars on grid, I would say we should expect Group 8 in our run group. It will make us better drivers AND create some more action and opportunities for passing with slower/faster traffic. I personally welcome it (with the understanding that questionable drivers in GPC get talked to).

If NASA TX is going to grow and we still want 4 races or more track time each weekend, we MUST combine groups. If the shleps on the west and east coasts can do it, we smart guys here in TX should be able to figure it out as well!!! The key to larger fields is making sure that EVERYONE in the run group is ready and capable of running in a pack of different class cars. If someone can't hack it, back to racecraft they go.

The one thing that has held true in this thread is that 4 30 minute races seems a given. Maybe we need to present that to NASA TX as our demands and let them respond?

Daron, if you want to save some time and money....I have a car collecting dust in the garage! :wink:

[CMC17]

For those of us who started in '03, the dream of having our own run group was the pot-o-gold. Once the car count increased we were very hopeful and that pot seemed much closer.

Fast forward. Yes, we have the car count to deem worthy of our own group and with tooth and nail the directors fought for it and actually were successful (many cheers).

I don't want to step backwards after the long fought battle for the hill only to give it up without a fight.

It's not my sandbox, but it is my stick.

[jeffburch]

If groups must run together they should be stacked by qual times.
jb

Let me clarify.
The slow group 8 cars gridded if front of faster ai/cmc cars is what I have a problem with. Most of the ones I'm referring to are the occational patron from who knows where. Rolling chicanes, corner picnic-ers, cones. Vipers/bimmers/panoz/caterhams/super 7's/porches etc.
Stack the grid by qual times.
EV, wanna team up?
Me North, you South.
jb

[Mike Bell]

The one thing that has held true in this thread is that 4 30 minute races seems a given. Maybe we need to present that to NASA TX as our demands and let them respond?



Matt, there is still the question regarding how do 30 minute races help those who are going to nationals? At least there is for me. ;)

You know we need to have a nuclear meltdown before the consensus can happen lol.

[marshall_mosty]

I'd vote for 20 4 minute races... :shock:

[Waco Racer]

Funny, I don't remember groupings being up for vote. There are many things in the works for next year, try to think outside of Group 5. These things will reveal themselves in due time.

[AI#97]

Matt, there is still the question regarding how do 30 minute races help those who are going to nationals? At least there is for me. ;)
.

Well, how about those that attended nationals pick one of the tracks that most resembles Mid Ohio here in this region and for that ONE event prior to september, we have a 40 minute race, say Sunday morning in stead of a 30...but still have the afternoon 30 minute race too?

Pretty simple and only costs another 10 minutes....if we start eliminating run groups which are on track for 80 minutes per day....this becomes easy and we can actually have down time between races and time for track recoveries....call it a bank of time so we don't end up running in the dark again....however, I am keeping ONE headlight working for now! :wink:

[AI#97]

Funny, I don't remember groupings being up for vote. There are many things in the works for next year, try to think outside of Group 5. These things will reveal themselves in due time.

Clifton, I might suggest putting the preliminary plan out on the table now. Better to slowly digest it than have it dumped on us while we spin our wheels....in other words, give us something REAL to argue about!!!! :lol:

[CMC17]

If groups must run together they should be stacked by qual times.
jb

Let me clarify.
The slow group 8 cars gridded if front of faster ai/cmc cars is what I have a problem with. Most of the ones I'm referring to are the occational patron from who knows where. Rolling chicanes, corner picnic-ers, cones. Vipers/bimmers/panoz/caterhams/super 7's/porches etc.
Stack the grid by qual times.
EV, wanna team up?
Me North, you South.
jb

<flag carrier for da South present and account for>

For me personally, there were huge issues with some of the group 8 cars. There were times that punting them seemed like the best option, but of course those thoughts were held between the ears and the flying finger <below the window seal>.

We are digging in and keep the #@$@ hill!

[GlennCMC70]

Mid Ohio and TWS are similar. just off by .5 miles. only thing missing is the MAJOR elevation change's.

as we are sitting here coming up w/ demands we want from NASA (more track time) we have to be willing to give up something for that "more track time". the combining of groups is something none of us wants but we (some) are willing to take that in trade.

durring my last event, i needed to make up 16 points on Jeff for the Championship. i had to have a really big weekend to pull it off. 2 of the races (sat) had me fighting w/ a GPC Porsche that was already a lap down. he wanted to race me and Jeff both times. do i think it affected the outcome of the Championship? no. in other races i was caught and passed by Mixon and Jay. no big deal. did i affect their race? sure, but i think mine and Jeff's battle was more important. i drove my race and delt w/ what i was given.
point is, everyone on track is having to deal w/ out of class cars in the same ways. just like a ref on the football field, he's just part of the turf, deal w/ it. i think we should be willing to take on more class's in our run group and get 4 30 minute races for @ least the first event just to see how it goes. and for the GPC cars, stop letting them get a split start and that will help w/ them not lapping us. all that does is give them a big head start.

as for how the groups are combined, did i see where the SRT cars (neons right) are not grouped w/ Spec Neon??? why?

[TEXAST1]

3. Group 5 AI, AIX, AIV,CMC & Group 8 GPC 1-2 & X; GTS 1-5 and U; ASC; PerformanceTouring A-D, R and U; Panoz; HC1-3 & U,Spec SRT, 944 Spec, 944 Cup, Factory Five Racing Challenge (FFR)

If I see groups 5 and 8 combined again, I will not run until we have our own run group. No drama added here, just a line in the sand.

Soooo Eric,

Since you have an issue with Group 8, please let me know how I can improve our group. I think I have earned the right as "King" of group 8. :wink:

For me personally, I don't like to race without group 5. I find myself do hot laps. It is rare that we have enough cars entered in group 8 to even justify having a run group at all.

While were are talking here, I don't like split starts. What is the point. For me all that happens is I catch up to yous guys faster. I would like to grid where we qualify.

[michaelmosty]

I would like to know for the record if group 5 will have our own run group next year.
I personally feel we have grown and done everything we can to deserve our own run group.
What is the plan?

[GlennCMC70]

here is a quicky re-org of the run groups. not sure of the total car counts for these groups and that could be the cause for it to not work. feel free to abuse me on this, as long as you offer your suggestions. my changes are underlined.

Group 1 HPDE 1&2
Group 2 HPDE 3&4, Comp students are in this group
Group 5 AI, AIX, AIV,CMC, GPC 1-2 & X; GTS 1-5 and U
Group 6 Spec Miata Challenge, SRX7
Group 7 , BG, PerformanceTouring E-H, , Legends (LP,LM,LS), Allison Legacy (AL), Se7ens 1-5, Spec SRT, Spec Neon, SE-R Cup, Formula Vee
Group 8 ; ASC; PerformanceTouring A-D, R and U; Panoz; HC1-3 & U, Honda Challenge 4-5, , 944 Spec, 944 Cup, Factory Five Racing Challenge (FFR)
Group 9 Time Trial only Session (run this @ lunch - its a 10 minute session)
Group 3 <blank>
Group 4 <blank>
Group 10 <blank>

[TEXAST1]

Glenn,

Actually you have never effected the out come for me and Jaybird. He is actually one class lower than me and he can't beat me anyway. :wink: 8)

That GPC Porsche, he and I had a long talk about his driving. If he returns he'll be in a better state of mind.

I prefere to have traffic to negotiate, makes me better driver.

A well prepared SRT Neon and well driven, would regretably kick your Arse, although it would probalby break down. :lol:

[TEXAST1]

I am glad I don't have the Formula V's in my group, but I am also glad they don't have their own group anymore either :!: :!: :!: :!:

[AI#97]

here is a quicky re-org of the run groups. not sure of the total car counts for these groups and that could be the cause for it to not work. feel free to abuse me on this, as long as you offer your suggestions. my changes are underlined.

Group 1 HPDE 1&2
Group 2 HPDE 3&4, Comp students are in this group
Group 5 AI, AIX, AIV,CMC, GPC 1-2 & X; GTS 1-5 and U
Group 6 Spec Miata Challenge, SRX7
Group 7 , BG, PerformanceTouring E-H, , Legends (LP,LM,LS), Allison Legacy (AL), Se7ens 1-5, Spec SRT, Spec Neon, SE-R Cup, Formula Vee
Group 8 ; ASC; PerformanceTouring A-D, R and U; Panoz; HC1-3 & U, Honda Challenge 4-5, , 944 Spec, 944 Cup, Factory Five Racing Challenge (FFR)
Group 9 Time Trial only Session (run this @ lunch - its a 10 minute session)
Group 3 <blank>
Group 4 <blank>
Group 10 <blank>


glenn, you groupings have several race classes that have 1 car in them...lump them all together in one super run group by qualification, say 40-50 cars and I bet you drop 3 full run groups!! :wink:

Bye the way, Kevin, I think there are going to be some AIX cars in the future that might be passing you! :wink:

[Mike Bell]

Look, we had other Group 8 "challenges" as well:

BMW with no tow hooks, later he decided to do a slow roll down through the sweeper, no hand signals or anything, you had to guess what he was going to do or where he was going.

The "hooptie" mazda chop-top that oiled down the track in T16/17 and continued to lay the transmission goo down the front straight.

The Viper driver was a very nice guy but parked it in the braking zone and at apex, point and shoot style. When my underpowered CMC car can overtake you in the sweeper you're doing something wrong lol.

Make me a better driver? Probably. Make me happier? Absolutely not. No ding on Mixon, but this isn't my idea of "fun" racing.

[GlennCMC70]

i know Matt. i dont have access to car counts for each class. but i did my best hip shot. the best way for NASA to "forecast" car count is to keep a running average from say the last 3 events. that way you know what classes need to move due to overloading the track. plan for 35-40 and set a max limit of 50. if thats exceeded, make a last minute change durring the weekend. if it falls below 25, do the same. do what you can to fill the track each session.

what if we just made it an all day session ENDURO and ran all cars for 3-4 hours???? fun??? :wink:

[Mike Bell]

Someone mentioned "early registration" as being one thing that hurt NASA TX's ability to plan the groups, sounds like a logical business issue.

Would it help out if we registered early, then NASA TX could base the run groupings off of those registrations at some cutoff point in time? If a group loses track time/sessions or gets lumped with another they don't like it puts the emphasis on the entrants to get registered earlier so that NASA TX has the data to plan with?

[CMC17]

3. Group 5 AI, AIX, AIV,CMC & Group 8 GPC 1-2 & X; GTS 1-5 and U; ASC; PerformanceTouring A-D, R and U; Panoz; HC1-3 & U,Spec SRT, 944 Spec, 944 Cup, Factory Five Racing Challenge (FFR)

If I see groups 5 and 8 combined again, I will not run until we have our own run group. No drama added here, just a line in the sand.

Soooo Eric,

Since you have an issue with Group 8, please let me know how I can improve our group. I think I have earned the right as "King" of group 8. :wink:

For me personally, I don't like to race without group 5. I find myself do hot laps. It is rare that we have enough cars entered in group 8 to even justify having a run group at all.

While were are talking here, I don't like split starts. What is the point. For me all that happens is I catch up to yous guys faster. I would like to grid where we qualify.

Mike pretty much summed it up in his post with with the "challenges" of group 8.

Plus, I don't know most of those guys. The only consistent one's are you and Jay. In a flash you guys are gone and I know what to expect. With the other "yahoo's", I have no idea what they are going to do. I don't want bimmer paint on my fine automobile!

I will try to post more later though.

[CMC17]

Someone mentioned "early registration" as being one thing that hurt NASA TX's ability to plan the groups, sounds like a logical business issue.

Would it help out if we registered early, then NASA TX could base the run groupings off of those registrations at some cutoff point in time? If a group loses track time/sessions or gets lumped with another they don't like it puts the emphasis on the entrants to get registered earlier so that NASA TX has the data to plan with?

I'm going to look really bad here, but away I go.

I will be a hold out until I see the schedule. A late registration fee won't cost me anything if I see 5 & 8 together. Have fun.

[mitchntx]

All this has the makings of an intersting racing year.

[TEXAST1]

Look, we had other Group 8 "challenges" as well:

BMW with no tow hooks, later he decided to do a slow roll down through the sweeper, no hand signals or anything, you had to guess what he was going to do or where he was going.

The "hooptie" mazda chop-top that oiled down the track in T16/17 and continued to lay the transmission goo down the front straight.

The Viper driver was a very nice guy but parked it in the braking zone and at apex, point and shoot style. When my underpowered CMC car can overtake you in the sweeper you're doing something wrong lol.

Make me a better driver? Probably. Make me happier? Absolutely not. No ding on Mixon, but this isn't my idea of "fun" racing.


Common Mike, that is the fun of racing in a diverse group of cars and drivers. It would get boaring other wise! :shock: Plus you can tell all of your non-racing buddies you kicked ass on a full race prepped Vipper. :wink:

On the BMW, I signed that guy off because he had an SCCA liscense, I didn't tech his car. I am sure some of you guys may remember me saying after I signed you off " Don't Embar-ass Me!" We'll he must have missed that part of my speech. :roll:

[TEXAST1]

per Matt, "Bye the way, Kevin, I think there are going to be some AIX cars in the future that might be passing you! Wink"

We'll Mister, All I can say is BRING IT! It will require our run groups to be combind. :wink:

Who says I am leaving my C5 stock anymore...

With sale of the Bitchin' Black Camaro, I now have a bigger buget for next season :D

[Rob Liebbe]

Wow - that's a lot in one group - our group. I personally don't want to be on the track with the Factory Five Cars and haven't been too impressed with the Panoz cars either. Split into two with CMC, AI, AIX, Group 8 like we've done in the past and put all the others in another group.




I may have gotten my 5 and 8 confused there. The group with Kevin and his Corvette is good, the group with the chop-top Mazda, Bimmer with no tow hooks, point and shoot Viper, and rolling blockade Porsche 911 is no bueno.

Sorry for my confusion - I've been installing a lawn sprinkler system over the holiday and may have sniffed a bit too much PVC glue. :shock: :lol: :?

[Mike Bell]

Wow - that's a lot in one group - our group. I personally don't want to be on the track with the Factory Five Cars and haven't been too impressed with the Panoz cars either. Split into two with CMC, AI, AIX, Group 8 like we've done in the past and put all the others in another group.




I may have gotten my 5 and 8 confused there. The group with Kevin and his Corvette is good, the group with the chop-top Mazda, Bimmer with no tow hooks, point and shoot Viper, and rolling blockade Porsche 911 is no bueno.

Sorry for my confusion - I've been installing a lawn sprinkler system over the holiday and may have sniffed a bit too much PVC glue. :shock: :lol: :?

ROFL, that's Kevin's Heroes: Group 8.

Sorry, Kmix, online therapy at its finest lol.

[donovan]

I find myself do hot laps.

KMix,

I will only add this...

There are a handfull of G8 drivers that I feel fine with on track, maybe three or four. The others are almost what you described, "doing hot laps"... while we are racing, and racing for points and a championship I find myself on track with guys running hot laps.

example: Parking in the corner for three turns, then doing fine the same three turn on the next lap... as if testing or just open tracking. I have been passed by a car, then catch the same car a lap later, then pass him again... and not just racing, almost like they were taking a break for a few laps or something... same car twice in one weekend.

Bottom line, getting in the way of drivers trying to race. Maybe we need to have a talk with these guys, if they don't plan on racing all out or at least 9/10th for the full race, run in racecraft!

I don't mind the speed differentials.

That is all.
DD

[jeffburch]

since this thread has veered again and has turned into a chat room, check out this interesting thread http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=12153&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=



jb

[AI#97]

Well, I will leave driver issues in G8 up to the Race director. It's our job to inform him of these issues with tech and driver abilities....then it's His/NASA TX to do something about it according to their judgement.

As for the silver BMW at Houston, that was an MSRH shop car out on rent best I could tell so shame on tech for allowing it on track. As for the chop top RX7...had it been painted, i am sure no body would have said a word till the driver made an error getting off track...I am sure non of us have ever done that?! :?

Casting stones is easy guys, viable solutions that keep this region in business so we have a place to race is what we need here. If we keep running out of cars, pretty soon we WILL be doing 8 hour enduros to keep the track hot and our entry fees will be $1000 weekend to pay the bills... :shock:

[jeffburch]

That mazda was a POS.
They cut the fender lips out with a blow torch and were left to rust all to sh!t.
Whoulda been a key indicator for me to look deeper into this "car".
If you have $305, and a pulse............
jb

[AI#97]

That mazda was a POS.
They cut the fender lips out with a blow torch and were left to rust all to sh!t.
Whoulda been a key indicator for me to look deeper into this "car".
If you have $305, and a pulse............
jb

I never took a close look at the car other than passing it on track....maybe tech didn't either?! :shock:

[GlennCMC70]

Group 1 5
Group 2 15
Group 3 6
Group 4 0
Group 5 & 8 30
Group 6 & 7 26
Group 9 1

these are the car counts from MyLaps.com. i'm sure there is some error, but should be really close. not sure what group was HPDE 1-4 but w/ no lap times, it would be hard to tell from MyLaps. add to the info if you know it. my quess is G4 is HPDE 1/2, G1 is HPDE 3/4/Comp.

we have the largest race group w/ 5&8 combined. that weekend was a light weekend for CMC. i would think we would be seeing 15-20 @ every event in '07 w/ just CMC. we had 23 points collecting drivers in CMC for '06.

[AI#97]

Group 1 5
Group 2 15
Group 3 6
Group 4 0
Group 5 & 8 30
Group 6 & 7 26
Group 9 1

these are the car counts from MyLaps.com. i'm sure there is some error, but should be really close. not sure what group was HPDE 1-4 but w/ no lap times, it would be hard to tell from MyLaps. add to the info if you know it. my quess is G4 is HPDE 1/2, G1 is HPDE 3/4/Comp.

we have the largest race group w/ 5&8 combined. that weekend was a light weekend for CMC. i would think we would be seeing 15-20 @ every event in '07 w/ just CMC. we had 23 points collecting drivers in CMC for '06.

Wow! Looks like we only NEED 3 race groups! Wonder if we could increase DE counts and start doing a 1/2 group, a 3/4 group and a separate racecraft group that might have ride alongs with REAL racers out there with them giving check rides?!

Just a thought!

And Kevin, Mine won't be an AIX car....but WILL be faster if I get to keep it! :wink:

[Adam Ginsberg]

This group has the shortest memory span....

As a refresher....in '04, we ( Todd and I ) negotiated an agreement with NASA Texas - if we regularly brought 20+ cars in AIX/AI/CMC, we could get our own run group.

In '05, we continued to share with various other classes ( remember the Caterham/Birken of Pete Challinor, and the chrome fender I removed from another Caterham? ) since our car count wasn't @ 20+. At the last event of '05 ( MSR-C in Nov ), we'd gotten to the magic number ( right at 20, IIRC ) and NASA Texas stated for the '06 season, we'd have our own dedicated run group. There was a caveat - when needed, we'd help NASA and combine our group with others.

'06 was the first year we had our own dedicated run group. MSR-H in Feb of '06 was the first time we ran G5 separately, as well as the two MSR-C events in March and April.

At MSR-H in May, to help NASA get out of a time crunch/car deficit, we put G5 and G8 together. At Hallett in June, we were separate. TWS and MSR-H, we were grouped together.

To say we've been spoiled by running as our own run group for too long would be incorrect - we've done it for 4 of the 6 events in 2006, none in 2005, none in 2004, and none in 2003.

We've always been proponents of a separate run group for AIX/AI and CMC, and as a racer, I'd like to see that continue. To be perfectly honest, class/car grouping may be a deciding factor whether or not to attend an event for more than just one or two folks.


Funny, I don't remember groupings being up for vote.

Ah...a sane voice above the din. As Clifton pointed out, we ( AIX/AI/CMC ) have no control over the groups, and who is in them. We also don't get to dictate what groups get eliminated - that is NASA Texas' responsibility.


There are many things in the works for next year, try to think outside of Group 5. These things will reveal themselves in due time.

Good luck with getting this group to learn patience, Clifton.


Since you have an issue with Group 8, please let me know how I can improve our group. I think I have earned the right as "King" of group 8. :wink:

For me personally, I don't like to race without group 5. I find myself do hot laps. It is rare that we have enough cars entered in group 8 to even justify having a run group at all.

Kevin - some, not all, of the G8 drivers need to learn situational awareness. They don't realize who is around them, what class they are in, when to race someone, and when not to. AIX/AI and CMC are going for a season championship in a large group that is HIGHLY competitive - and they need to recognize that fact.


While were are talking here, I don't like split starts. What is the point. For me all that happens is I catch up to yous guys faster. I would like to grid where we qualify.

We did grids based solely on qual times and finishing order for nearly 3 years, but that changed after the March '06 double-yellow debacle with some saying it was "unsafe" and "cars should grid by class only".

Run G5 only.
Run G5 and G8 together.
Split starts.
No split starts.
Flip.
Flop.
Flip.
Flop.
Flip.
Flop.

Consistency is key. Why not work with our Series Director to solidify what our wishes are so that he can take them NASA Texas??? Follow the chain of command...don't circumvent it as in the past.

[TEXAST1]

I am just interested in my own best interests. So at least I am honest :wink:

I get board running around the track alone with no one to challenge me. Maybe Brady will up his game next season.

On a serious note, Group 8 does get the most drivers "New" to NASA than the other groups. It seems to be more common to have one offs that end up in group 8. That will be even more so the case as PT takes off next year. PT umbrellas over GPC under the gies of ST1 ST2 and SU. Kinda leaves the door open until I can get GPC ackowledged as a national class. :roll:

[Mike Bell]

Adam,

Short memory? I've been accused of much worse so that's not a bigge. But body-slamming us on a flip flop? Where's the flip-flop here? G5 and NO G8 - simple. Fordward progress, why all of a sudden is Clifton saying "OCTOBER" is the model for next year's schedule?? Was OCTOBER something wonderful between G5 and G8? I missed it if it was.

First I've heard of this caveat thing, guess I needed to read the fine print. But Clifton spent MUCH TIME IN THE DRIVERS MEETINGS IN OCTOBER reminding EVERYONE that there were championships at stake. G8 drivers don't know us, don't know who's in CMC vs AI vs AIX much less who the CMC points leaders may or may not be so how COULD IT HAVE GONE ANY DIFFERENTLY? How could we expect a G8 driver to lift or backoff when they have no chance of knowing who the points leaders are in a respective class? That didn't work last event and won't work next year.

Keeping G5 and G8 seperate will work.

[TEXAST1]

"Keeping G5 and G8 seperate will work."
___________

MIke did you not read my post? This will not be any fun for me and that is what we are talking about here! :lol:

You gotta keep'em separated.

Seriously Keep the car count up and I am am sure I'll have plenty to do with the new "Catch All" group 8. :P

[Mike Bell]

Kmix,

I've got a spare CMC Mustang here in the garage. Cheap cheap (hey, it's a Mustang.) Quit playing SUO or whatever they call your car these days and get over into GROUP 5 and RACE WITH US instead of driving around burning fuel and rubber.

Who knows, might be fun to struggle for a change lol. You might enjoy it!

[mitchntx]

MIke did you not read my post? This will not be any fun for me and that is what we are talking about here! :lol:


If there is one thing I've learned over the years of participating in DEs ...

Vette, Porsche and BMW drivers all think alike ... :P

Pick a cat ... any cat

http://mcnelis.biz/images/cat/kittypoker1.jpg

[Todd Covini]

Look, guys...
I'm going to be candid here and not hold anything back.
I hope I don't offend anyone, but, Here's my "Top Ten" style of responding to 7 pages of posts here....

1) Mike had a valid question as to whether we would be running any 40 min. races next year. :idea:

2) The real question at hand we (Clifton/Shannon/Todd) intend to have worked out prior to January is...how many races per weekend should AI/CMC anticipate? :!: (TBD)

3) The # of races per weekend really should be our first priority, and the length of them should be secondary. 30 min races are a good compromise (between 20 & 40 min), but I don't think we need to decide length of races before R1...we do need to decide # of races before R1. :wink: FWIW...I'm not offended in any way that folks have decided to contact NASA directly. NASA TX has an "open door policy" and value customer service as a high priority. I too have been in touch with all the NASA folks working thru all of these things in parallel, so there have been no surprises or backfires. :?

4) It's amusing to watch us debate a restructured NASA weekend schedule...3 months before the next event. Can we debate how Smith, Pedersen/Marvel and Burch should prepare their cars next season now too??? :roll:

5) I'm no where near retiring...and just gettin' started!!! :evil:

6) I'm dumb & stubborn and stay with things for the long haul...in good times and bad...even moreso if I love 'em and believe in them!!! :oops:

7) I'm a NASA groupie from way-back, hung with the band when they were playing in garages...and will stick with NASA & NASA National as we march forward. 8)

8 ) Our Texas AI/CMC goals & objectives from Day 1 have not changed. We've had a very successful formula so far and I'm not about to change anything major. We've obtained our 20-car field goals and our objective will always remain to have our own AI/CMC race group. We'll revisit that when the day arrives that we approach 40 AI/X cars and 40 CMC cars...and then our objective will be to separate AI and CMC fields and run them separately back to back on the schedule. :!:

9) 2006 was a year of compromise. We all need to put our General Interest hats on and recognize that until Kevin & Jaybird (and the other racing groups) get their act together and get a full field of ~20 GPC/ETC cars together, the possibility will exist that they run with us. This will get looked at prior to each event on a case by case basis and hopefully K-Mix will spend less time on the AI/CMC forum and more time growing and nurturing his own series so we can take his training wheels off and let him ride solo with his own run group of 20+ cars. <<smack>> We lub ya' Kevin...but I had to say it! (Kidding aside...He's in transition and probably had the highest GPC/ETC car count to date at the last MSRH event...we should applaud his efforts...they can't be that far away from their own run group!!! Right??? Right??? :?: :?: :?:

10) The 2007 Texas AI/CMC Leadership Team is in place and ready to go. All discussions with those directors/coordinators and NASA, regionally and nationally, have taken place and all systems are a go. We'll certainly miss the efforts and contributions of Richard and Adam next year, but the people coming in to replace them will have more roles, more responsibilities, more authoritity and, as such, more effectiveness in these new positions. (And they'll be able to cover my ass when I'm away for any extended periods of time!!!) In the next week I'll announce more details of my team and how we're going to manage Texas AI/CMC for 2007. For those of you that were around 3 years ago, it'll look very familiar. We're gettin' back to basics and anticipate an awesome 2007 Texas AI/CMC Championship Season!!! 8) 8) 8)

IMO...2007 will be a year of "make it or break it" for Texas AI/CMC. There isn't a single person I've talked to that wants to "break it"....and therefore...we're going to MAKE IT!!! :!:

Stay tuned and Happy Motoring!!! :D

-=- Todd Covini

PS- Those new CMC rules should be out any day now...I think things got fairly settled today!!!

[Mike Bell]

Gee Todd, some real eye-openers in there:

Q1: Is the number of races per weekend going from 4 down to 3?

Q2: Is the length of those races (whatever number) going to change?

Q3: Will G5 and G8 be combined now on a regular basis instead of as an exception?

We aren't debating a request to "restructure" the race weekend, we are discussing the pros/cons of the restructuring NASA TX did to our races in 2006 whey they combined G5 and G8. At first it was because "only two cars left in G8 on Sunday", then it was because "we're an hour behind because the corner workers got here late". Then it became "because there aren't many G8 cars registered". Understandable situations and I thought we all supported the decisions at the time.

But nobody came out and said "G5 and G8 are going to be combined in 2007 until G8 hits XXX number of cars per event". At least nobody said it until Clifton stated that the October schedule was the model for next year's scheduling.

Waiting till R1 of 2007 to decide some of this isn't fair to those of us who plunk down our cash in faith IMHO. Some of this can be ironed out ahead of time and we've got a little over 2 months.

[CMC17]

A lot depends on if we are two steps forward or back. If we are in the dark ages once again, I might offer my services during the race weekends to take video from different parts of the track to capture the true essence of AI/CMC.

Otherwise, I will probably be on-track if we are forward a step or two.

[Waco Racer]

I know of some good things for next year. Stay tuned!

[Waco Racer]

We aren't debating a request to "restructure" the race weekend, we are discussing the pros/cons of the restructuring NASA TX did to our races in 2006 whey they combined G5 and G8. At first it was because "only two cars left in G8 on Sunday", then it was because "we're an hour behind because the corner workers got here late". Then it became "because there aren't many G8 cars registered". Understandable situations and I thought we all supported the decisions at the time.

But nobody came out and said "G5 and G8 are going to be combined in 2007 until G8 hits XXX number of cars per event". At least nobody said it until Clifton stated that the October schedule was the model for next year's scheduling.

NASA Texas appreciates the cooperation of G5 during 2006 in regards to scheduling.

Yes, the October event will be the model. However, there was a preliminary schedule that was never released to the racers that had G5 & G8 separate. This is actually the starting template I use to make the schedule for each event.

Group 1 & 2 will remain separate.
Group 3 will be a guest group, when needed.
Group 4 gone.
Group 5 still full of goobers. <-- I keed, I keed!!
Group 6 & 7 most likely combined unless SM grows again.
Group 8 is growing - GPC, ASC, Panoz, GTS, HC should all have more cars in 2007.
Group 9 - still only 1 Time Trial session, but hopefully will grow.
Group 10 gone.

Be aware that the DE cars don't always have transponders so they will not show up on mylaps. Early entries are greatly appreciated and if you choose not to attend NASA can always transfer that fee to the next event.

Just a little info for the discussions. I think that this is a good thread and G5 will be the model Group at each event next year. No pressure, eh? :)

[GlennCMC70]

I know of some good things for next year. Stay tuned!

so why cant you fill us in on some of this? i've seen you mention it twice now.
you surely dont think we are all sitting here just giddy as school girls by the shear mention of that, do you? well except for Corey. :wink:

glad to hear that the policy is to carry forward entry fee's that go unused. i'll be more willing to sign up early now. i've always waited till about a week before the late fee deadline.

[Mike Bell]

C'mon Glenn, you mean you don't have access to the inner sanctum? I thought all systems were go? :D

Thanks for the info Clifton, did the "unreleased October schedule" have 4 races per weekend for Group 5? Here's why I'm asking: It would really suck if we get the Feb 07 schedule and it had G5 and G8 seperate but only 3 G5 races, then someone asks "Why only 3 races?" and the answer was "because you wanted G5 and G8 separate".

I'm not advocating "We want it all" mentality, I'm advocating "Share the hard facts that are involved in making these decisions" so we can understand the ramifications of the input we give. Otherwise, I'll get all the blame for only three races. ;)

(Or maybe that's the plan all along??? :shock: :shock: :shock: )

[AI#97]

all I can say is guys, spill the beans on all the details by Monday...PLEASE!

I am not spending $1 on putting the car in competitive state till I see some plans...the earlier the better gang because the engine rebuild is a 60 day turn around and I need to know what we are building...AIX or AI motor!

Thanks!

[mitchntx]

Mike's got a point, as does Glenn.

All this secret squirrel stuff is OK for 10 year olds waiting for Santa Claus. But some of us are trying shake out schedules and budgets for vacations, racing, and work.

And knowing the ripple effect of a request would certainly go a long way to shelving some angst down the road. "Giv'em exactly what they ask for and then point fingers" doesn't solve anything. It makes it worse.

Curious ...
For those that have been entrenched in the SCCA for years, is this the kind of "politics" I was told existed in that organization? Is there anything we can learn from the decisions they made?

[GlennCMC70]

C'mon Glenn, you mean you don't have access to the inner sanctum? I thought all systems were go? :D

you know something i dont??? :?

i havent gotten the phone number to the Bat Phone yet.

[Waco Racer]

Curious ...
For those that have been entrenched in the SCCA for years, is this the kind of "politics" I was told existed in that organization? Is there anything we can learn from the decisions they made?

Not even close.

[Waco Racer]

It is not my responsibility to make other peoples announcements for them. Just read that post with the grouping information carefully.

[GlennCMC70]

so what is going into Group 3?
what message board should i visit to get this info?

[Waco Racer]

Some options: (if they get the numbers)
1. TSRS
2. Allison Legacys
3. FV
4. FM
5. Nothing
6. Personal driver training for the Race Director.
7. Special CMC race sponsored by Landrum brand Manties. The only Manties you'll ever need. Marshall Mosty says, "They are the most comfortable women's underwear I have ever worn!" :shock:

[GlennCMC70]

Some options: (if they get the numbers)
1. TSRS
2. Allison Legacys
3. FV
4. FM
5. Nothing
6. Personal driver training for the Race Director.
7. Special CMC race sponsored by Landrum brand Manties. The only Manties you'll ever need. Marshall Mosty says, "They are the most comfortable women's underwear I have ever worn!" :shock:

1. TSRS? who is this?
2. cool.
3. ppppuuuuuuulllllllleeeeeeeeesssssssssss. they high car count has been a total of 4. dont see it happening.
5. if it was nothing, you would have said nothing.
6. we dont have all day. and even that would not be enough time. <how's that go? i keeeeed, i keeeeed...... right?>
7. since Jeff won the Texas Championship, his would be the #1 seller. he even has a slogan for them...."Cinch up yur Manties!".

[Waco Racer]

TSRS is the Late Model group that joined us @ TWS. They are a great group and were very accommodating with the schedule and the rain shower.

FV has to prove alot to me before they get back on the schedule.

FM may only be for the Greg Bruder Memorial race.

Nothing is an option. If no group gets the numbers right then more track time for the RD training.

[marshall_mosty]

7. Special CMC race sponsored by Landrum brand Manties. The only Manties you'll ever need. Marshall Mosty says, "They are the most comfortable women's underwear I have ever worn!" :shock:

Umm... Clifton, if you've been talking to my wife... I've told her not to tell anyone about that. :oops:

[mitchntx]

Curious ...
For those that have been entrenched in the SCCA for years, is this the kind of "politics" I was told existed in that organization? Is there anything we can learn from the decisions they made?

Not even close.

Wow! No wonder so many are disgruntled if it's worse than all this.

So we can't learn anything from the road they traveled? Or is all this the result of it?

[Todd Covini]

Teller is the quiet one. :roll:

[GlennCMC70]

Todd, check your email.

[mitchntx]

Teller is the quiet one. :roll:

I guess that could be interpreted a couple ways ... :P

Being as I'm no longer competing, I guess I should just STFU ...

[Mike Bell]

Teller is the quiet one. :roll:

I guess that could be interpreted a couple ways ... :P

Being as I'm no longer competing, I guess I should just STFU ...

What? Say it ain't so! You are coming out for 2007 right???

[GlennCMC70]

all this "racing" stuff has gotten to be too much for him. :cry:

[mitchntx]

That's right, Glenn. You guys are just too much for me. I have been put in place and now know where I belong.

Mike ...

The nuke plant has a 2 1/2 month outage beginning mid-Feb. So that pretty much kills any chance I have for the first 3 races.

I'm not going back to Houston ... ever. I hope the garage space was worth car count. I'm not spending August in Bryan either. So that leaves Eagles Canyon.

My medical is due (I have to foot the bill for an EKG), the cost of a license and NASA renewal, along with the dyno cert and the required changes to the car ...

I'm not gonna spend $500 plus entry and travel to race 1 time.

Finally, I have local sponsor obligations. They don't sell anything in Houston, Bryan or Decatur.

So, I'll spend relaxed weekends with Schwallenberg at MSR-C and save a lot of money.

I'll do my Teller impression now ...

[GlennCMC70]

by "racing" i was talking about the internet "chatting". sorry about those toes.

[Todd Covini]

Mitch doesn't usually wear open-toed sandals. :!:

My Teller comment was with regard to the pot-stirring about "SCCA like" tactics, back-room politics and such.

If you go to the announcement section, you'll now see that the reason that we couldn't announce the new team sooner was that I had to honor a request that we don't tell this region, before all communications were completed in...the other region.

The reason for the rules delays...are simply so that we get a good quality finished product.

So...no conspiracies...no angles....no wedges....just old fashioned, trying to make sure no-one's toes get stepped on.

Guess I still failed and got yours.
Put your "pussy-footin-boots" back on damnit, Mitch!!!)

-=- Todd

[Mike Bell]

Dangit Mitch, I'm really sorry to hear it. I understand about the work deal but wish you could find your way south for a few races next year if the opportunity arises.

Glenn, congrats on the Director slot! So Al's visit to us last year was a recon job? He's moving to Houston? Jeesh, Todd, couldn't you find a Mustang driver? LOL.

[mitchntx]

No toes were stepped on ... it's all in good fun. I know that.
Guess I need to be more liberal with the smileys ....

Congrats, Glenn. I am disappointed that I was the last person to know.

and welcome Al ....

[GlennCMC70]

Congrats, Glenn. I am disappointed that I was the last person to know. ....
i had to tell my Mom first, and since she cant be trusted, you had to wait.

[CMC17]

Gratz to all newly appointed directors!!!

Woot! Another GM to pass on the track!!! Although, I think Al should start with the parade laps? I keeed!

[jeffburch]

Congrats Glenn and DD!

GL, I expect to see some bright red c5 calipers on your car the next time I see it!

jb

[GlennCMC70]

cornering the market as we type.

[jeffburch]

Save me two.
jb

[CMC17]

Congrats Glenn and DD!

GL, I expect to see some bright red c5 calipers on your car the next time I see it!

jb

I also have a new wing and measured it with the arm-ruler. Seems to be legal too.

[GlennCMC70]

ouch!!!!!!!!
i'll go buy a tape measure just for you Eric. :)

[AllZWay]

Congrats to the new directors......and GOOD LUCK! :lol:

[TEXAST1]

:cry:

[Todd Covini]

What???? C'mon, Kevin. You can play too! :o

Get that old Camaro back!!!
Sorry if I stepped on any toes...the purpose of my rant earlier was that we need to set goals and work towards the future to achieve them.

"AI/CMC/GPC/ETC Texas" is just too long of a series name....we've got to stick to our core...and that's AI/CMC Texas! :wink:

-=- T

[TEXAST1]

I am just funnin' with you Todd.

But seriously on some of the other posts and rants... I came to RACE! We ALL came to RACE

[Adam Ginsberg]

I'm going to say this in my typical "It is what it is" style - no BS, no hidden agenda, no politics.

Politics, from my experience in the working and racing world, typically only help the ones that need it the least, but insist they are helping others out....those "others" are the ones who always get the short end of the stick when politics takes over.


Short memory? I've been accused of much worse so that's not a bigge.

To begin with, I wasn't speaking directly to you Mike, but to the group at large.

That said, yes - this group has, at times, a short memory. That, coupled with rookie racers that have an aire of "knowing it all" - hell, they've got X-number of years in OT or AX, and they've raced for a season, so they must know everything. They speak for the entire group on how things "should be". Rookies come into the series and make demands without understanding where we've been, where we are going, or our history - it's happened every single year in this region.


But body-slamming us on a flip flop? Where's the flip-flop here? G5 and NO G8 - simple.

Yes - flip flop. Need an example??? Not long ago, a few members of this group were vehemently opposed to a 40min race...."AI cars can't last 40min!", "It's too hard on the driver!", "It's dangerous!", "It's too hard on parts!" Now, folks like racing them ( granted, not in August ). Flip-flop.

Each year, we've had flip-flops due to one or two folks who demand change for their own personal benefit or reason(s), and whip the AI/CMC Texas group into a frenzy. Each flip flop is easy to figure out - do some research on this message board, or on the original YahooGroups mailing list.

It's been detrimental to the group each time it's happened. We lose momentum in accomplishing our goals - something that always happens when people use politics to get their way. Read into that statement any way you wish - it's not directed at any one particular person. If you feel it's aimed at you ( meaning, not necessarily you Mike, but you in the general sense ), then you feel a sense of guilt for doing exactly what I described above.


First I've heard of this caveat thing, guess I needed to read the fine print.

That caveat was always in place - to help NASA when needed. It's not surprising you didn't hear about it Mike - you weren't at all the events. It was discussed at more than one driver meeting.


G8 drivers don't know us, don't know who's in CMC vs AI vs AIX much less who the CMC points leaders may or may not be so how COULD IT HAVE GONE ANY DIFFERENTLY?

That is not a viable reason - it's a lame excuse.

During the Nats, there were 62 cars in the AIX, AI and CMC run group. Within a day, I made sure I knew what cars were in each class - by the Sunday championship race, when I saw a car in my mirror, I knew who they were, how fast they'd been, about where in the field they were, and made sure to give them room whenever I could. I knew who the fast and slow AI and AIX cars were - and whether or not they'd pass me, or I'd pass them ( the WC 4th gen Camaro comes to mind.... ).

It's called RACING IN A GROUP WITH DIFFERENT CLASSES. It's each drivers responsibility to know who is in their run group, how fast they are vs. yourself, and at about what point in the race they are going to pass you, or you're going to pass them.


How could we expect a G8 driver to lift or backoff when they have no chance of knowing who the points leaders are in a respective class?

See my point above. When a G8 driver sees a Mustang, Camaro, or Firebird in their mirror, they should know they aren't racing that car - period. Hell, we make it as easy as possible for them - all of our cars have either CMC or AI on the windshield!


Keeping G5 and G8 seperate will work.

Sure that would work. However, we may have to share our run group to help NASA make up time - I don't like it any more than you do, and am opposed to it. Get used to the idea.


But seriously on some of the other posts and rants... I came to RACE! We ALL came to RACE

No shit, Kevin - why do you think we're here?

Look - you're a good guy and enjoy hanging out with you at the track, but.....if you want to race your Vette against other evenly matched competitors, build GPC the way we built AI and CMC, and you'll have it. We spent 3 years getting our class where it is today so that we could race in our own run group, against other class competitors.

It's not our ( AI and CMC's ) responsibility to make sure you have traffic to "make yourself a better driver". If you want to race against AI and CMC cars - build a class legal pony car, and bring it to the track.

Now...to get back on track regarding race lengths.....

Realistically - I don't give a shit about race lengths. 20, 30 or 40min - just quit bench racing on the intarnet, stop the whining, get off your asses....and get out and race.

[mitchntx]

...

[Mike Bell]

====

[mitchntx]

Probably right. No one has proof except for a single individual.

I'm just tired of being judged and called out when glass houses have the shades drawn.

[Mike Bell]

Does this new section of the CMC rules mean there is a teardown rule in place now??


7.7.3 Inspection and Testing
To help reduce the cost of competition and provide for simple and fair technical inspections, NASA shall use chassis dynamometer testing as the main means of engine inspection in the CMC series.

NASA tech inspectors and CMC Officials have the right to inspect anything in sight at any time the vehicle is at the track. NASA tech inspectors and CMC Officials shall have the right to request disassembly or any other procedure required to verify vehicle compliance with these rules including a dynamometer re-certification.

Glenn or Todd, can you give your input? Am I reading too much into this new statement?

[Boudy]

Does this new section of the CMC rules mean there is a teardown rule in place now??


7.7.3 Inspection and Testing
To help reduce the cost of competition and provide for simple and fair technical inspections, NASA shall use chassis dynamometer testing as the main means of engine inspection in the CMC series.

NASA tech inspectors and CMC Officials have the right to inspect anything in sight at any time the vehicle is at the track. NASA tech inspectors and CMC Officials shall have the right to request disassembly or any other procedure required to verify vehicle compliance with these rules including a dynamometer re-certification.

Glenn or Todd, can you give your input? Am I reading too much into this new statement?

I was wondering the same thing Mike.

Boudy

[GlennCMC70]

yes. no heads will be removed, no intakes will be removed, no oil pans will be removed. everything can be checked w/ those limits.
the first release for the '07 rules had a clause in it the said "no major engine teardown would be done". i just looked and i cant find it. they will/can/and have removed valve covers to check lift/duration. they can check engine vacuum. they can check fuel pressure. basically nothing has changed since last year.

dont take my word on this as official yet. i'll let Todd and Al give the final word. i did talk about this w/ them last friday. looks like the rules were changed durring final release.

[Adam Ginsberg]

Probably right. No one has proof except for a single individual.

I'm just tired of being judged and called out when glass houses have the shades drawn.

All I'll respond to here is.....I wasn't judging any one individual, least of all you, Mitch.

[Todd Covini]

The no-teardown rule in CMC generally still applies but now has some sideboards to reflect what we've been doing since day one.

Basically, anything on your dyno sheet to get you to your # can be verified.

So...if tech needs to verify that you've got your 30MM restrictor plate in place...they can...without a teardown.

If tech needs to verify that your choked off air filter is in place...they can...without a teardown.

If tech needs to inspect something to verify your dynosheet is accurate...they can...without a teardown.

We just needed to clarify that in the rules to assure that folks aren't hiding behind the "no teardown" rule and mis-interpreting what it means. Hope that helps...

-=- Todd

[Todd Covini]

Adam...we heard you but you're coming in a little scratchy & chided. May want to move the microphone away from your mouth a little bit to see if that works. :wink:

-=- Todd

[Mike Bell]

The no-teardown rule in CMC generally still applies but now has some sideboards to reflect what we've been doing since day one.

Basically, anything on your dyno sheet to get you to your # can be verified.

So...if tech needs to verify that you've got your 30MM restrictor plate in place...they can...without a teardown.

If tech needs to verify that your choked off air filter is in place...they can...without a teardown.

If tech needs to inspect something to verify your dynosheet is accurate...they can...without a teardown.

We just needed to clarify that in the rules to assure that folks aren't hiding behind the "no teardown" rule and mis-interpreting what it means. Hope that helps...

-=- Todd

Todd, actually it clouds things even more for me since your post and Glenn's don't seem to be in sync:

What does removing valve covers have to do with anything on the dyno sheet?
Are you going to be removing exhaust manifolds?
Anything else subject to "removal" without it being a "teardown"???

[mitchntx]

If tech needs to verify that your choked off air filter is in place...they can...without a teardown.




7.7.2 Horsepower/Torque and Minimum Weight

Cars may install a restrictor plate between the air filter and intake manifold to reduce horsepower and torque. The diameter of the restrictor plate orifice(s) shall be noted on the Dyno Sheet and must match at all times. Any other parts or components on the vehicle that are different than OEM stock and affect power must be explicitly allowed by these rules and must be noted on the Dyno Sheet.



According to that rule, a "choked off air filter" is not allowed. The restriction has to be between the filter and intake.

[jeffburch]

Are restrictors on five liter cars legal?

jb

[mitchntx]

7.2.2 just says "cars" ...

But it also says "The diameter of the restrictor plate orifice(s) shall be noted on the Dyno Sheet and must match at all times." which tells me it has to be noted, labeled and rigid in order to maintain the size.

[Al Fernandez]

Jeff, Mitch, you're both right. Any car can have a restrictor. If you have a restrictor it has to maintain its size (no flexible restrictors, no butterflies, no sillyness) and be able to be verified (dyno sheet Vs hardware in a post race inspection).

[TEXAST1]

But seriously on some of the other posts and rants... I came to RACE! We ALL came to RACE


No shit, Kevin - why do you think we're here?

Look - you're a good guy and enjoy hanging out with you at the track, but.....if you want to race your Vette against other evenly matched competitors, build GPC the way we built AI and CMC, and you'll have it. We spent 3 years getting our class where it is today so that we could race in our own run group, against other class competitors.

It's not our ( AI and CMC's ) responsibility to make sure you have traffic to "make yourself a better driver". If you want to race against AI and CMC cars - build a class legal pony car, and bring it to the track.


Adam, I guess you read my statement wrong. My intention was that some of the posts seem whinie.

But since you mentioned it, I disagree, I don't think everyone came to race or their posts don't read that way.

Point is that everyone can benefit from having a larger group of cars to run against. Makes eveyone a better driver not just me.
I just get lonely. :wink:

[Boudy]

The no-teardown rule in CMC generally still applies but now has some sideboards to reflect what we've been doing since day one.

Basically, anything on your dyno sheet to get you to your # can be verified.

So...if tech needs to verify that you've got your 30MM restrictor plate in place...they can...without a teardown.

If tech needs to verify that your choked off air filter is in place...they can...without a teardown.

If tech needs to inspect something to verify your dynosheet is accurate...they can...without a teardown.

We just needed to clarify that in the rules to assure that folks aren't hiding behind the "no teardown" rule and mis-interpreting what it means. Hope that helps...

-=- Todd

No Sir, No Sir, No Sir.

You are saying one thing, while the rules VERY clearly say something completely different.

"7.7.3 Inspection and Testing
To help reduce the cost of competition and provide for simple and fair technical inspections, NASA shall use chassis dynamometer testing as the main means of engine inspection in the CMC series.
NASA tech inspectors and CMC Officials have the right to inspect anything in sight at any time the vehicle is at the track. NASA tech inspectors and CMC Officials shall have the right to request disassembly or any other procedure required to verify vehicle compliance with these rules including a dynamometer re-certification."

There is nothing (reread NOTHING) in 7.7.3 that enables me legally refuse when BoBo the Tech Inspector pansies on over to my car and say's, "Mr. Boudreaux, we have reason to believe that your heads are illegal and I need you to remove one of them for inspection. I don't know that this could ever happen but until the rules are clear on the intention, it's possible. A man once said, "The road to Hallett was paved with good intentions."

I don't wrench on my car at home, I sure didn't join CMC to wrench on it at the track.

Boudy

[AI#97]

There is nothing (reread NOTHING) in 7.7.3 that enables me legally refuse when BoBo the Tech Inspector pansies on over to my car and say's, "Mr. Boudreaux, we have reason to believe that your heads are illegal and I need you to remove one of them for inspection. I don't know that this could ever happen but until the rules are clear on the intention, it's possible. A man once said, "The road to Hallett was paved with good intentions."

I don't wrench on my car at home, I sure didn't join CMC to wrench on it at the track.

Boudy

How about CMC drivers pool money together and buy a boroscope (SP?) that could be sent down the intake to look at the intake port....won't tell you much more than whether it has been cleaned up or not but could START the talk about removing a head without actually doing it?

Just a thought.....and we could even rent it to drivers who don't want to pull heads!.....like me right now! :lol:

[jeffburch]

Someone has been to the proctologist lately hasn't he?
Got those wheels to turning huh?
How could "the tech shed" have used this at HMRC last year?

jb

[CMC17]

I'm simply tired of all this crap. :roll:

[arnie]

BoBo the Tech Inspector pansies on over to my car

Boudy[/quote]



Is this my new name or something you've called me for a while without me knowing?

[Boudy]

Fellow AI/CMC drivers (and only drivers) For heavens sake, when do we get a driver's only section to raise hell and banter our opinions to each other without big brother calling us out?

Ryan: My whole rant; and that's what you caught. Talk about missing the point. :roll: :roll: You think I called you Bobo? I don't even know you. Don't even remember who you are. I'm sure you are a swell guy. Bobo is figurative dude, relax.

Here, I'll try again. When "A Tech Inspector" (read Politically Correct) asks me to remove my engine's cylinder head in the name of the rules, where is the line? The new rule for clarification has broadend the gray area.

And BTW: I would never nickname a guy behind his back, it's just rude.

Boudy

[mitchntx]

I agree with you, Eric to a certain extent.

But you have to admit, that with all the volleying of allegations from competitor to competitor about misconduct, STRICT rules adherence has to happen. And when a very fine line is drawn in the sand, which I think the new rules have made a turn toward that fine line, then knowing EXACTLY what the rules mean is paramount.

The days of loosely interpreting the rules, falling back on the guise of intent, are over.

I know you long for the days when some good ole boys just got out there and raced. You have know one but yourself to blame. You made it too much fun. ;)

[mitchntx]

Boudy, I know where you are going with this. I've had this conversation for many hours with others.

Bottom line, you have to be seriously SMOKING the competition before the "pulling a head" mandate takes place.

That I honestly believe ...

[GlennCMC70]

i'll talk w/ anyone who wants to talk about this rule.
214-869-9603.

[mitchntx]

Can I book a time to call and talk? :roll:

FWIW ... Glenn has become Da Man .... :?

Homie ... meet Glenn. Glenn, this is Homie ... :shock:

[Todd Covini]

Look guys, we've beaten this up long enough now.
I've talked about all of these things with many, many folks, both racers, directors and the national office. The result is what you have in the rules.

I have yet to get our 4 Texas AI/CMC Directors and the TX Tech guys together to discuss 2007. Trust me, we'll have plenty of communications before and during January and get something out to y'all as to how "the new norm" is going to be.

First, we've got to get better at routine tech-ing the basic things before we even start to worry about the notion of "teardowns".

So suffice to say, that CMC was never a teardown class and still isn't a teardown class! If the routine inspections reveal irregularities, we may need to look into it further. Let's just work on getting the routine inspections accomplished first, ok?

....to be continued....

-=- Todd

[GlennCMC70]

seriously. i'm not gonna do the bickering thing here. if you think "da man" is out to get you, use your CMC racing money to get meds or professional help. if you have done nothing wrong, you have nothing to worry about. Tony was very clear @ Nationals that no teardown would happen as long as he was in charge of CMC.

i do think that IF (thats a big fucking IF) a teardown is done in ANY form and nothing is found and the re-assymbly will cost you money, NASA should foot the bill. no reason to collect the $25 protest fee and not hand it over to the racer if no issue if found. my personal thoughts as a racer, not an Assistant Director.

[Todd Covini]

http://www.the-funneled-web.com/images/Lucy%20the%20psychiatrist.gif

[gt40]

OK looking from the outside in (and feel free to tell me to STFU if you think its a problem...)

Anytime you have a series with a restrictive rule set like CMC, officials have to be vigilant to ensure that the rules are being obeyed. Stock engine internals? You HAVE to be able to verify that. Unmodified factory heads? Again, it must be verified, and that means an engine teardown. I really don't think there's any other way to verify the legailty of the parts.

Let's say I had a rebuilt motor using factory innards and GT40 heads. If I knew the engine would never be torn down by series officials, I'd make damn sure the motor had as much stroke as possible, bored out as much as reasonable, using an offset-ground crankshaft, modified rods, and perhaps custom pistons.

I'd also make damned sure that the heads were milled to bump the compression ratio a bit too. And that the intake was milled to mate well with the modified heads.

How can you check any of that without a teardown?

Build it up and tune the motor to make the exact power you want, with a nice, flat power curve.

If you start winning too many races, and folks get suspicious, show folks your technically legal dyno pull and let 'em poke around the outside of the engine all they want. They won't know anything about the boring, the stroking, or the high-compression heads.

Hell, you could even put in a forged crank, lightweight rods & pistons, and other neat stuff to maybe spin the motor a little higher.

IMHO, teardowns are the only way to tell if the engine's innards are within the letter of the law.

I see two alternatives to this. You could do ONE teardown of the motor, verify it, and then seal it (NASCAR seals their engines, as does other spec series.) If the engine is ever opened up for service or repair, then the seals are broken and the engine must be re-inspected, and re-sealed.

On the other hand, you could simply require CMC cars to purchase a spec motor (or perhaps longblock,) from an approved vendor. Again, this is common for many spec series.

[Todd Covini]

All good points, Robert, but just not what CMC is about.

I think we need to start a new thread because this one got pretty far away from "40 minute races for 2007". See my "dyno sheet" post which is another way to ensure compliance.

I'm sure there's a fancy way to split the thread and do some other stuff, but I'm just going to lock it so we don't get too far away from the beaten path.

-=- Todd