Inverted Starts

[RichardP]

Since it looks like fun to start a thread that will eventually get locked…


I thought I’d get a reading on people’s current thoughts on inverted starts. Do people like what we are currently doing by splitting up the different classes? Changing from inverting the whole field really took a lot of fun out of it for me.

From what I saw, the inverted AI field had fully un-inverted itself by the third turn of most of the inverted races. What’s the point, I guess?

There is enough field depth and parity in CMC that inverting their field still made for some great racing there. Does adding extra out of class cars to that mess that up or is the skill and challenge of dealing with traffic better than your competitors an important part of the game??? It sure seemed to be part of the game at nationals.

Now that Matt has a season under his belt, he seems to get it and appears to like the variability and challenge of racing with out of class cars mixed in. Is that true Matt? What are your thoughts on going back to fully inverted starts???


I’d like to see us go back to fully inverted starts. There were a few polls taken last year on this topic. All of the results I saw showed that the majority of the racers wanted to keep the fully inverted starts. Is that still true? Is there any hope of going back???


Richard Pedersen

[mitchntx]

Richard, I certainly don't mind fully inverted starts.

The only issue I would have is if an out of class car, who is running alone, gets bored and wants "to play" with a pair of out of class cars jockeying for position.

Is the entire AI/CMC field patient and mature enough to realize that and not affect the outcome of an in class race just to amuse themselves?

[AI#97]

Now that Matt has a season under his belt, he seems to get it and appears to like the variability and challenge of racing with out of class cars mixed in. Is that true Matt? What are your thoughts on going back to fully inverted starts???
Richard Pedersen

Since you asked me specifically and since I am by no means the lead spokesperson for anything, I will say nothing more than this. I enjoyed the close racing, however, didn't like the risks I had to take in race 3 at the last event to get to the front....that was fun, showy and crazy....but a little too crazy really!! Granted, it was my own doing to be put a the back ass of the field, however, it doesn't quite seem fair for the fastest AI competitors to be gridded at the back while a slower AI car that struggled in the first race checks out while gridded on pole.... That situation is just asking for trouble. Not saying I would 100% support inverts as they were....but maybe with a few changes that kept the groups together.

Oh, and Richard, there were several races where Chris and I cleared the field by turn 1! :wink:

[Todd Covini]

That's it!
Matt has spoken.
I'm locking this one down.






:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: (kidding)



...but if we start debating 40 minute races and who pays for dyno pulls in this thread then we are SO locked down! LOL

[Al Fernandez]

Keep in mind that next year there will be one more class thrown in with CMC2. How have the inverts been set up here in the past?

[marshall_mosty]

I personally vote for fully inverted grids. I'm not as talented as some, so it takes me a lap or so to "clear the field"... 8)

I think it adds a dynamic that makes it REALLY close racing. I feel comfortable with 95% of our drivers in close proximity. For the other 5%, it might just get a little too close without a little persuasive rubbin’.

The inverted grids give me something to do until I fall into “chase” mode trying to run down the top “3”. I feel I’m currently in the same boat as Richard Pedersen was a few years ago. You can out-drive the CMC guys (most of the time :D ) and end up running a lapping session for the entire race.

JMHO

[CMC17]

I don't mind "fully" inverted starts as long as it's only AIX/AI/CMC out there. Thrown in any other a$$clowns (exluding Jay and Kmix of course)...er out of class cars and I have to give a :thumbs-down:

.02

[AI#97]

Keep in mind that next year there will be one more class thrown in with CMC2. How have the inverts been set up here in the past?

which are going to be more difficult to pass! Inverted by class still works especially with the members of each respective class getting closer in speed. It's just a matter of time before less than 1 second covers the entire AI field....It WILL happen soon!!!

[Garbage]

Fully inverted starts prove what? That I can pass a slower and bad handling CMC car. What is the point of the risk? Sunday's race 1 I did not qualify (Call me what you want, but I am the one who foots the bills for my car. No one is going to pressure me into taking unnecessary risk.) I started behind everyone and would have been content to stay there if a few CMC cars would have stayed on the track. Getting tired of having mud thrown on me, I decided to start passing folks. Again, what does it prove and what is the point. I am not racing anyone in CMC. I was not racing anyone that entire weekend. Some CMC folks will let an out of class car pass and then there are other's who will not. The one's who let you pass understand class racing, the one's who don't are stupid.

Fully inverted starts are putting more expensive cars at a greater risk. Who is getting the thrill on fully inverted starts? The driver or the spectator? The spectator can take a flying leap! Only if a spectator ponies up to pay for my car, then would I actually entertain the idea of fully inverted starts. Until some moron pays for my ride, it is exactly that, my ride.

Those people in AI, who need fully inverted starts to be competitive, should practice more. The only way a deficient AI driver could win in a fully inverted start is if a clueless CMC car holds off the rest of the AI field. Otherwise the usual folks who win are going to win. Is this winning by affirmative action? That is not winning. That is being handed a crutch and saying, "We know you and your car suck! We want you to win so you go home feeling good about yourself."

The same people who came up with fully inverted starts are probably the same whimps that say, "Everybody is a winner. Let's not keep score so little Johnnie doesn't have his self esteem crushed." Well little Johnnie is going to get his soft ass crushed in the real world. How do you think little Johnnie is going to handle that big disappointment.

Leave the starts the way they are. Fully inverted starts suck. Fully inverted starts prove nothing. Fully inverted starts only give rejects a momentary boost in confidence. Fully inverted starts increase the risk of frustration, anger, aggression, and crashes. None of those items are good for the series.

[mitchntx]

My name is Mitch and I approved this thread ...

http://photo.phoenixfeather.net/album_info/greek_cats_and_dogs/ferocious.jpg

[Todd Covini]

http://www.kastle.com/images/finger-button-579.gif

Don't make me lock this thread now...it's too early. :lol:

[jeffburch]

Could make it voluntary.
Wanna start at the back,.... EVERY race? Do it. Have fun. I respect it.
Might try some myself.

jb

[Mike Bell]

Suggestion 1:
Quit inverting. Period. Let the fast cars in each respective class start up front where they qualified. Bottom feeders like me can "earn" their way to the front.

Suggestion 2:
Put AI/AIX into Group 8. Mixon isn't lonely anymore and AI doesn't have to deal with stupid CMC drivers in their bad-handling cars. :lol:

[GlennCMC70]

what about the CMC-2 cars?
man, 3200 lbs @ 260hp/310tq sure looks good.

[RichardP]

Could make it voluntary.
Wanna start at the back,.... EVERY race? Do it. Have fun. I respect it.
Might try some myself.

jb


I'm good with that but it's not the same thing at all. The point isn't to start behind slower cars and then play a live version of "Pole Position" and artificially pump up your ego because you can pass so many cars. The point is supposed to be the better driver doing a better job of getting through traffic. It’s also about variety. If you have open track in front of you, it’s the same every lap. With other cars around you, it’s different every time. The skills required to go through traffic offline while keeping your competitor in sight or behind you are not the same skills required to put down a fast lap by yourself on the practiced line.

For me, it’s also about fun. I have more fun on fully inverted starts. Someone keeps saying that “fun” is the reason we’re all supposed to be doing this…


Richard P.

[micah]

i vote invert all races except the houston races, i heard turn out at those was going to be so low that it wouldn't matter

[CMC17]

My "N" keeps getting stolen from my "FU". :shock:

[Mike Bell]

Ok, I'll put the teasing to the side for a bit. My definition of fun has several levels:

First off it is fun to be out at the track with this bunch of renegades - period.

Second, it is real fun to grid up and take the green flag in whatever order we assemble.

Third, it is the MOST FUN I'VE EVER HAD to duel for many laps with another competitor in my same class, trying to find a way to pass or to stay in front of him/her regardless if it's for 13th or 4th place. This is what I call "racing".

Fourth: It's not fun to deal with a faster out of class cars during the race while trying to race my fellow CMC cars. Move over and let them by? Lose ground on my CMC competitor. Stay in the preferred line? Piss off the out of class driver. Nobody is happy.

[cmarvel]

I like the fully inverted starts. They make you work harder for you wins. The idea of the inverted starts was to make it harder for the leaders to dominate the series, and fully inverted starts accomplish that better than inverting by class. It also forces the AI/AIX drivers to learn about driving in close quarters. CMC does that pretty well, but I think AI/AIX could use some practice. If moving through a field of slower cars feels risky, then probably more practice is in order.

As for the out of class cars, we currently put them at the front of the group when we are inverted. Except for Kevin and Jay, that is already "Full Inverted" because most of those cars/drivers are a little off the pace and seem to be very nervous around our thundering herd.

What I am saying is that we have the worst of both worlds right now. I would rather see us start fully inverted or straight up by finishing position.

[Garbage]

How are fully inverted starts practice? If your car is smashed up because you had to start behind slower traffic, where's the fun in that? You get practice at doing body work. Wow, that's fun...can't wait to do body work. A smashed car makes for loads of seat time, like sitting on the couch.

I am telling you, you are borrowing trouble by fully inverting starts. As the CMC field gets bigger and more competitive, they are not going to just move over for AI/AIX to come blowing past them. They are going to want to race the guys in their class.

There are other ways for AI/AIX to practice racing in close proximity. Like lapping the CMC field while holding off another AI/AIX competitor. Hummm, thoughts of Hallett come to mind. Beating the field by 51 seconds Saturday R1. :wink:

The '05 season JG and MP raced as close as it gets. This year Matt and Chris raced each other pretty hard.

You don't have to borrow trouble to make racing fun. I don't give a crap about racing anyone, but I had fun. Fun to me is driving fast. Fun to me is hearing the roar of a V8. Fun to me is challeging myself to run consistantly and improve.

I can't for the life of me understand why anyone in CMC would support fully inverted starts. WTF is the point in messing up your race to have a faster car blow past you or have to make room for him. You lose position. You lose momentum. Your concentration on the CMC car next to you is momentarily lost. I would think that you would only want to deal with in class cars and not worry with AI/AIX. :idea:

Then again lots of things in this world don't make sense to me.

[RichardP]

I can't for the life of me understand why anyone in CMC would support fully inverted starts.


I've heard CMC driver's on several occasions mention that they liked faster cars coming through because if they time it right, they can follow the faster car and accomplish a pass that they otherwise would have found difficult to do. Best I can tell, Todd is the master at this…

It’s a skill. Part of advanced driving past HPDE levels. Kind of like driving in the rain. Some welcome and excel in the challenge. Others cower from it.


Richard P.

[AI#97]

I think MB is on to something!

If NASATX was going to put 4 VW powered bicycles into a run group of their own, put AI/AIX into Group 8 with GPC...I will go play with Mixon and Jay.


As for the FUN that has been mentioned here....for me, the funnest time I have had in the car in the last 12 months was the SCMC event in November at Houston. I would wave Wayne/Todd/Bettin/JG by and then work my way back past while sitting front row for a show of top notch driving....no pressure at all for points or position...just fun!

I think I may have found a more fun way to enjoy my investment which is instructing and then playing with the instructors in the white group....anyone got Schwalenburgs phone number?! :wink:

[Mike Bell]

I can't for the life of me understand why anyone in CMC would support fully inverted starts.


I've heard CMC driver's on several occasions mention that they liked faster cars coming through because if they time it right, they can follow the faster car and accomplish a pass that they otherwise would have found difficult to do. Best I can tell, Todd is the master at this…

It’s a skill. Part of advanced driving past HPDE levels. Kind of like driving in the rain. Some welcome and excel in the challenge. Others cower from it.


Richard P.

ROFLMAO, now comes Richard saying those who don't want to must "cower" from it. Great stuff. Don't pass based upon your skills, let some out of class car punch a hole and follow them. :roll:

[mitchntx]

In Football, you have the back Judge ... in basketball you have the ref ... in baseball you have the 3rd base ump ... sometimes, things just happen that cause them to be in the line of fire. It is considered a part of the game and they are a part of the field, turf, court.

Cars on the track are no different than the cone and curb at NPR ... the rocks exiting Big Bend at MSR-C or the smooth vs sharp transition at TWS. It's all a part of the track.

Some can't figure out why slower cars would want faster cars barreling through the field. Some of the slower cars can't figure out why faster cars have owners dumping the cash in them in order to win a medal and get their name in a phantom article somewhere. Nothing makes sense.

The point is, each of have our reasons for liking or disliking a small part of a whole weekend. We can either let that small and sometimes insignificant piece of the whole puzzle frustrate and be a cause to stress over or a driver can cope, adapt and overcome.

David, if you are running by yourself in class, there should NEVER be a time when you have to do body work after a fully inverted race. There's just no reason for it.

[GlennCMC70]

Fully inverted starts prove what? That I can pass a slower and bad handling CMC car. What is the point of the risk?
they are not to prove anything. they are to provide fun for the whole group, not just the 4-5 top cars. bad handling CMC car? lots of tire, brake, aero, HP and light weight will go along ways to cover up ones ability/inability. all racers should try a few laps in under powered car w/ no tire, brakes or aero and low HP. it takes a lot to get the times us CMC guys are running w/ these cars. as for the risk? well there should be no risk for you as you win each time you put the car on track and take one lap. who are you racing?


Sunday's race 1 I did not qualify (Call me what you want, but I am the one who foots the bills for my car. No one is going to pressure me into taking unnecessary risk.) that was a smart move. no reason to risk a wreck. you can't qualify for 1/2 place. you didn’t need to qualify to pole, so why do it.


Some CMC folks will let an out of class car pass and then there are other's who will not. The one's who let you pass understand class racing, the one's who don't are stupid. so you expect a 1 of 13 CMC car to move over and let the 1 of 1 AIX car pass? your race against yourself is more important? and the CMC driver is stupid?


Fully inverted starts are putting more expensive cars at a greater risk.
so your car is worth more to you than say mine to me? or is it that the cars w/ the most money in them always win CMC so they always start @ the back on the inverts?



Who is getting the thrill on fully inverted starts? The driver or the spectator?
I think it’s the driver that got a bad qualifying time cause he/she played it safe and drove off into the mud to ensure he made no contact w/ another driver who may have spun, or oiled down the track, or had a mechanical issue. or just plain sucks @ qualifying. its about keeping the points chase close all the way to the end of the year. if it was about money and fame, I would agree w/ you. if its fame you want, go race GA Cup, or SCCA W/C, or NASCAR.


Those people in AI, who need fully inverted starts to be competitive, should practice more.
or spend more money. cause it’s the more expensive cars that win, right?


The only way a deficient AI driver could win in a fully inverted start is if a clueless CMC car holds off the rest of the AI field.
CMC is just there to fill out the group 5 car count to help AI/AIX get their own run group right? surely the 23 points collecting drivers for 2006 need to actually race to win, but only do so while no AI/AIX cars are in sight. once again, I'm not sure the CMC driver is the clueless one.


Otherwise the usual folks who win are going to win. Is this winning by affirmative action? That is not winning. That is being handed a crutch and saying, "We know you and your car suck! We want you to win so you go home feeling good about yourself."
we want people to have fun. if no-one has fun, no-one comes back. w/ no car count, we all loose a place to race, including yourself. this level of racing is "for fun racing". we do it for fun. do you?


The same people who came up with fully inverted starts are probably the same whimps that say, "Everybody is a winner. Let's not keep score so little Johnnie doesn't have his self esteem crushed." Well little Johnnie is going to get his soft ass crushed in the real world. How do you think little Johnnie is going to handle that big disappointment.
I like inverted starts. I see it as an opportunity to tell the other drivers who started in front of me and finish behind me "you had no excuse." I agree w/ inverts and the reason they are around. I don’t think of myself as a wimp, but hey, I could very well be. guess what, this is not real world racing. this is "for fun" racing. we are not going to make a living racing in CMC/AI/AIX. we are not going to be signing autographs, or staring in Talladega Nights. so whats wrong w/ knowing you lost to a guy who started in front of you? do you think that person is going around bragging about winning from the front of an inverted start? so what if they do?


Fully inverted starts increase the risk of frustration, anger, aggression, and crashes. None of those items are good for the series. all of these things you mentioned do not belong in racing w/ NASA and the CMC/AI/AIX series.

I tried to ignore this post and hoped someone would comment on this mentality. I'm sure I'll catch a shit storm for what I've just said. but just as your entitled to your opinion, as am I.

[Garbage]

Racing in the rain...not my cup of tea. Don't have a reason to put the car in jeapordy, won't do it. Not worth the financial heartache.

Call it "coward by the wallet."

Fully inverted starts makes about as much sense to me. What is the point? Why the risk? What does it prove? Let CMC drivers practice on each other.

Here is a new question within a thread:

What group has had the most accidents?
A. CMC
B. AI
C. AIX

The answer to this question will prove my point. Inverted starts suck and are completely pointless. Find your fun and practice elsewhere.

[Garbage]

David, if you are running by yourself in class, there should NEVER be a time when you have to do body work after a fully inverted race. There's just no reason for it.

And I don't go flying through the field on a start. What is the point?

[GlennCMC70]

the point is your racing yourself in a class of 1 or 2. your doing it in a car thats only turning lap times w/in about 3-4 seconds of what its capable of. its real easy when your not on the edge of grip all the time. compund that w/ 15 cars that are almost all covered by the same amount of time your car is leaving on the track. there is also the number of cars.

[Mike Bell]

Yeah, so lets keep manipulating things to add more skill level to the equation. I'm sure we can use that soap video Covini posted for another great idea. Then we can see who'll step up and soap race with the big boys and who cowers from it.

Using Mitch's analogy, lets have the umpires stand in the base paths, or let's put more rocks on the track, etc etc. To what end and for what purpose? So we can see who's got more skill?? What ever happened to line up and race based upon where you qualified?? Not enough difficulty rating in that one??

I've got my hands full keeping up with the racing we do now.

[Garbage]

they are not to prove anything. they are to provide fun for the whole group, not just the 4-5 top cars. bad handling CMC car? lots of tire, brake, aero, HP and light weight will go along ways to cover up ones ability/inability. all racers should try a few laps in under powered car w/ no tire, brakes or aero and low HP. it takes a lot to get the times us CMC guys are running w/ these cars. as for the risk? well there should be no risk for you as you win each time you put the car on track and take one lap. who are you racing?
Yeah, my car has tires under it, but it doesn't have hp. 345-355hp at best. That is not much. Next season it will. I will enjoy the difference.

so you expect a 1 of 13 CMC car to move over and let the 1 of 1 AIX car pass? your race against yourself is more important? and the CMC driver is stupid?

Now I have never messed up someone else's race. That is just uncool.

so your car is worth more to you than say mine to me? or is it that the cars w/ the most money in them always win CMC so they always start @ the back on the inverts?

Yeah, it is.

I like inverted starts. I see it as an opportunity to tell the other drivers who started in front of me and finish behind me "you had no excuse." I agree w/ inverts and the reason they are around. I don’t think of myself as a wimp, but hey, I could very well be. guess what, this is not real world racing. this is "for fun" racing. we are not going to make a living racing in CMC/AI/AIX. we are not going to be signing autographs, or staring in Talladega Nights. so whats wrong w/ knowing you lost to a guy who started in front of you? do you think that person is going around bragging about winning from the front of an inverted start? so what if they do?

I am not looking for fame. Just fun. I am sure you really didn't want your picture taken at nationals, huh? Camera shy? Felt good though seeing your picture in a magazine.

or spend more money. cause it’s the more expensive cars that win, right?

Well yeah. The more expensive and better prepared cars do win.

CMC is just there to fill out the group 5 car count to help AI/AIX get their own run group right? surely the 23 points collecting drivers for 2006 need to actually race to win, but only do so while no AI/AIX cars are in sight. once again, I'm not sure the CMC driver is the clueless one.

Not sure what your point is here.

we want people to have fun. if no-one has fun, no-one comes back. w/ no car count, we all loose a place to race, including yourself. this level of racing is "for fun racing". we do it for fun. do you?

You have fun by improving and knowing you are improving. Not by having your ego inflated thinking you winning or being given a win. And yeah, I have fun racing my car. Not fixing it.

all of these things you mentioned do not belong in racing w/ NASA and the CMC/AI/AIX series.

No, they don't belong in the series, but they will happen because like it or not everyone in this group is competitive. Why else are you racing? If you write back and say you are not competitive and don't really care about winning you are a liar.

[mitchntx]

David, the point is if you are racing by yourself, be patient and pass when there is room. No need to risk the car for no reason.

[mitchntx]

Mike, I'm not advocating inverted starts, nor am I condemning them. Some like it ... some don't. So some of the R2/R4s should be as qualified or finished and some should be inverted.

Compromise ... has that word ever been used on this site before? ;)

Refs, Umps, rocks and #9 don't get in the way on purpose. Sometimes fate, karma or just plain bad luck makes it so. When it does, we all have to just deal with it.

Because, like on the 75 or the 290 ... you be nice and I'll let you in. Be pushy or a turd, you'll have a tougher job. ;)

[GlennCMC70]

i didnt go to Nats to have my pic taken. it was nice that it happened, but not why i went.

i am in CMC to have fun. i'm also here to win. there is no race i have been in that i didnt give 100%. but i dont put my expectation of fun above the expectations of others. we all should be accommodating each other. from your post, its all about what you want.

as for improving, I use myself as a measure of improvement first. I come to the track wanting to do better than I did the last time lap time wise. then I compare that to the others I race w/ to see where I stack up. I set goals each race weekend. so its possible for me to know I'm getting better, even if I have to start dead last each race. by your definition, your faster than the next guy even if his car breaks and you win. I see it as I'm only faster than him if I run a faster lap than him, if I win, then that’s it, I won. does not mean I got faster or that I am better now than the last time.

[Mike Bell]

Mike, I'm not advocating inverted starts, nor am I condemning them. Some like it ... some don't. So some of the R2/R4s should be as qualified or finished and some should be inverted.

Compromise ... has that word ever been used on this site before? ;)



I understand Mitch. I'm sure Todd will step in and help us get perspective and a decision will be made on the topic. However I think this is a case of flip-flopping that Adam was referring to.

Didn't we go away from full inverts becuase of a problem earlier in '06? Wasn't "safety" involved in the reasoning?

I seem to recall some contact and complaints, a compromise was worked out and we no longer did full field inverts. Now we go back to how it was because?? Fun??? Skills???

[Garbage]

i am in CMC to have fun. i'm also here to win. there is no race i have been in that i didnt give 100%. but i dont put my expectation of fun above the expectations of others. we all should be accommodating each other. from your post, its all about what you want.

No, it is not all about me. Why should I sacrifice my car for your fun? Sounds like those who don't spend much on their car want those who did to sacrifice it. Find your fun at someone else's expense.

Yeah, I spent money on my car.

Look! Unless you can prove to me that CMC has not caused more incidents on track than AI/AIX, my mind is set. Fully inverted starts suck!!!!!!!!

This is the only subject I have bitched about in the past. I am completely opposed to inverted starts. Especially because CMC driver's have caused more wrecks in this series than anyother class.

How to become a CMC driver:
1. Buy cheap ass POS
2. Get a provisional license
3. Let's stick them out on the track ASAP and fill the field
4. Look the other way when rookie driver goes off track 5 times in one lap

That is what is going on with CMC. Deny it. Get pissed, but it is the truth.

And yeah, I was allowed to race after having been out on the track 3 x's my entire life. Was in over my head? Yep. Luckily the field was much smaller back then. I grew with the series. Things are different now. Much different.

Clint Eastwood qoute, "A man has to know his limitations."

There are those who are out on the track who either don't know their limitation or won't admit them.

This is a non-negotiable topic to me. There is no compromise.

David

[GlennCMC70]

i dont think anyone in any official capacity has talked about accually going to anything. this is all just "talk" and opinions @ this point.

as far as i know we will still be running R2&4 as inverted w/ in class based on finish. i do not think inverted based on qual is the right thing to do. i think safety is a good reason to not invert the whole field.

did i just flip flop? :?

we could grid by age, height, car number, weight, weight of car, so on and so on. i think Kowlyphorya does some races this way. OH/IN does not invert any races.
it wouldnt matter, someone will not be happy. i'm old, i'm young, i'm fat, i'm skinny, my car is a pig, my car is light, my car number is XXX. there is always someone who feels they are being put @ a disadvantage, even when its random. once we all agree no "one is out to get anyone", and that we all feel the decisions are being made based on the best for ALL involved the better off we will be. a decision has to be made, someone will make it. those are givens.

[Garbage]

David, the point is if you are racing by yourself, be patient and pass when there is room. No need to risk the car for no reason.

Not every race will I be by myself. What am I supposed to then? Let my competition go because CMC wants fully inverted starts. Look at what you are asking me to do, all because you want "fun." (Watching wrecks or being involved in wrecks.)

Fully inverted starts suck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Any question on where I stand on this subject?

And why did Richard Pedersen bring the topic up in the first place? You are not even racing anymore.

[Garbage]

once we all agree no "one is out to get anyone", and that we all feel the decisions are being made based on the best for ALL involved the better off we will be. a decision has to be made, someone will make it. those are givens.[/quote]

I don't think anyone is out to get me. I am just trying to nip this topic in the bud.

Fully inverted starts suck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That is my opinion and I am sticking to it. The only thing that will change is the more explanation marks. I like holding that key. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!

It's fun and takes skillz!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[mitchntx]

How to become a CMC driver:
1. Buy cheap ass POS
2. Get a provisional license
3. Let's stick them out on the track ASAP and fill the field
4. Look the other way when rookie driver goes off track 5 times in one lap

That is what is going on with CMC. Deny it. Get pissed, but it is the truth.

David

I think you just described how you got started ... other than #1

I'm not pissed, David. It appears you are getting there, though.

[GlennCMC70]

sorry if my last post was taken as being directed to you DA, it was not, but to the group.

also, if fully inverted, your in-class cars will be behind the CMC cars just as you. so there will not be a disadvantage that you have that you comp does not have too.

[jeffburch]

My name is Mitch, and I'm a Racaholic. :lol:

I would like to see a stat on the class incidents vs. # cars out there.
It would be interesting.
More cars closer together is gonna result in actual CLOSE competition.
Racing IS competition. CMC is close tight racing and the reason I'm doing it.
If I had a higher source of disposible income I would definately run AI.
In a Chevy no less and am certain I could squelch a few egos in this class.
Regardless, racing is the sh!t.
Hot lapping is like masterbation.

jb

[Garbage]

I think you just described how you got started ... other than #1

I'm not pissed, David. It appears you are getting there, though.[/quote]

That is how I got started. My car cost $4,000.00 at Joe's Used Car Lot. Ran Driver's Edge once and NASA HPDE once in my life with no other track experience. Put a cage in the car, and next event I was on the track with the race group.

I'm not mad! Just resolved in my feelings on F.I.S. And because NASA is still pushing people into the race group, noticably into CMC, that is how you become a CMC driver. Problems will arise from having fully inverted starts and inexperienced people leading the way.

[/quote]

[GlennCMC70]

Hot lapping is like masterbation.
jb

"lube it up!"

[Garbage]

Hot lapping is like masterbation.

jb

[mitchntx]

My name is Mitch, and I'm a Racaholic. :lol:

I would like to see a stat on the class incidents vs. # cars out there.
It would be interesting.
More cars closer together is gonna result in actual CLOSE competition.
Racing IS competition. CMC is close tight racing and the reason I'm doing it.
If I had a higher source of disposible income I would definately run AI.
In a Chevy no less and am certain I could squelch a few egos in this class.
Regardless, racing is the sh!t.
Hot lapping is like masterbation.

jb

I think Jeff is drunk again .... :wink:

[Boudy]

there is always someone who feels they are being put @ a disadvantage,

Glenn, you've got that market cornered chief. :lol: :lol:

Well, I'll admit that I'm still one of those rookies who's ass end is kinda wide at times. Hell, I down right scared the shit out of MB qualifying in the rain, sorry dude. Anyway, I've been reading and trying to understand each guys point of view. I agree with most points to some extent or another but I fail to understand why some of this group participate in races when it seams that AutoX would be better to fill there need for speed without traffic.

Boudy

[Al Fernandez]

Dave, I'm a little confused...you do or do not want to fully invert the field?














:lol:

[GlennCMC70]

Al, your not helping............ you will fit in fine here. :P

[donovan]

I will say this... from being on the track with DA and racing with him, he will race you hard and close... Now that he has moved up to AIX and I am still in AI things have changed. He will not just blow by or make a hole, he is patient and will wait for a good pass on out of class cars like myself.

I can remember multiple times when I was stuffing my car in holes and working thru the field with him behind me, when there was a break I would give him room and sometime he would pass sometimes he would not. He would wait till I cleared the cars I was racing hard with or I was at a stand still for a while behind a car.

He does not have a desire to bang his car up, and it does seem boring for him to be patient for 10 minutes of a 20 minutes race just to clear all those cars... I understand where he is coming from, having seen him on track.

DD

[marshall_mosty]

I can also see everyone's point, however we ALL have to deal with a speed differential... either positive or negative.

We all have to watch our mirrors while keeping the rest of the racing in prospective.

That is what makes us the badasses and rockstars of the every day driving world.... we're racecar drivers! 8)


Many other series run "out of class" cars. In endurance racing in the ALMS, I'm sure the Audi guys aren't saying... damn, we're getting stuck behind a lowely GT1 or GT2 car. The slower traffic is just a rolling chicane that EVERYONE has to deal with. It may not be at the same place on the track, but the "obsticle" is still out there for everyone to overcome.

Everyone take a deep breath, pull your manties from you A$$ and get ready for Feb!!!!

... or as JB says, "Cinch it up!!!"

See you guys at SpeedZone!

[Garbage]

Dave, I'm a little confused...you do or do not want to fully invert the field?














:lol:
Well I have to ask, who are you? And what region are you from? What is your experience? And what are your intentions with this series? What are your leadership qualifications? Are you planning on keeping this series consistant? Hopefully you are not into experimenting with safety and think AI/AIX should start behind a bunch of wheezing stock motored CMC cars.

Just feel like we should put everything out on the table. I complain about safety and stupid ideas like fully inverted starts. Otherwise I keep my mouth shut and keep to myself. The politics of this series would even make John Force loose interest in racing.

David

PS Fully inverted Starts SSSSSSUUUUUCCCCKKKKK!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mike Bell]

I can also see everyone's point, however we ALL have to deal with a speed differential... either positive or negative.

We all have to watch our mirrors while keeping the rest of the racing in prospective.

That is what makes us the badasses and rockstars of the every day driving world.... we're racecar drivers! 8)


Many other series run "out of class" cars. In endurance racing in the ALMS, I'm sure the Audi guys aren't saying... damn, we're getting stuck behind a lowely GT1 or GT2 car. The slower traffic is just a rolling chicane that EVERYONE has to deal with. It may not be at the same place on the track, but the "obsticle" is still out there for everyone to overcome.

Everyone take a deep breath, pull your manties from you A$$ and get ready for Feb!!!!

... or as JB says, "Cinch it up!!!"

See you guys at SpeedZone!

Where in ALMS do they do inverted starts??? I missed that part of their program. "Obsticle" or "popsicle" or whatever, the point is why do we invert? How you can use ALMS to make that point is beyond me.

Nobody is talking about getting lapped here, we're talking about changing the way races are started. The cluster@#$ going into Turn 1 on Lap 1, the tip-toe through the tulips on the first half lap amigo.

[Garbage]

Many other series run "out of class" cars. In endurance racing in the ALMS, I'm sure the Audi guys aren't saying... damn, we're getting stuck behind a lowely GT1 or GT2 car. The slower traffic is just a rolling chicane that EVERYONE has to deal with. It may not be at the same place on the track, but the "obsticle" is still out there for everyone to overcome.



Marshall,

I don't think Miata's start in front of the Audi's and Cadillac's. The faster group starts in front of the slower.

Why not have Kevin's group start in the back of CMC? Because they don't want their +50K car smashed into by some CMC yahoo.

Do you blame them? Hell no.

David

[marshall_mosty]

I don't think Miata's start in front of the Audi's and Cadillac's. The faster group starts in front of the slower.
Where in ALMS do they do inverted starts??? I missed that part of their program.
Okay, I hit the "Submit" button early. I should have referred to the restarts after a double yellow where the field is all bunched up with out of class cars everywhere...

maybe my post goes without merit. If so, ohh well. I cry softly to myself later.

[marshall_mosty]

Well I have to ask, who are you? And what region are you from? What is your experience? And what are your intentions with this series? What are your leadership qualifications? Are you planning on keeping this series consistant? Hopefully you are not into experimenting with safety and think AI/AIX should start behind a bunch of wheezing stock motored CMC cars.


umm... http://www.aicmctexas.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=741



New Texas AI/CMC Leadership Team Announced for 2007!
Effective December 1, 2006

It is with great pleasure to announce that Al Fernandez, CMC Director from NASA’s Northern California region will transfer to the NASA Texas region effective Jan. 1, 2007. Mr. Fernandez will retain his current duties as a CMC Series Director and report to Todd Covini

[GlennCMC70]

well i have posted this once already. why is everyone so wound up over a question? this is not something that has been proposed. not something that was taken to a vote. i know of no plans for this to happen. so why all the banter. David, you will still start in front of the AI cars and AI cars in front of CMC cars. that way, inverts will only be w/in class. but, that means GPC cars will start in front of you.

[Mike Bell]

well i have posted this once already. why is everyone so wound up over a question? this is not something that has been proposed. not something that was taken to a vote. i know of no plans for this to happen. so why all the banter. David, you will still start in front of the AI cars and AI cars in front of CMC cars. that way, inverts will only be w/in class. but, that means GPC cars will start in front of you.

Why is GPC in our run group? Has this been decided or something?

[GlennCMC70]

David, you should really stop w/ the crap talking of CMC. there is no reason to keep talking down to those who choose to run CMC. your allowed to have your opinion, but voicing it over and over is getting a little old.

[GlennCMC70]

not. but there will be times when we will be asked to run w/ them. we have done it in the past, we will do it some more i'm sure.

[Todd Covini]

Since it looks like fun to start a thread that will eventually get locked…


All you guys DO realize that RP is sitting back watching all this and laughing, right?
http://www.ringelkater.de/ringel_witzig/cat_dog_mouse.jpg

Well, I'm not biting on this one! :twisted:

We're not changing the formula.
Inverted starts aren't up for debate...they'll continue and are a part of AI/CMC's philosophy. <-----that's a period

The valid questions/discussion/debate is:
1) How many inverts per weekend?
2) Invert within class or entire field?

Regarding the # per weekend...qualifying always leads to racing by qual time. So anytime we have 1 qual and 2 races in a day...there's a "fun race" to be had! (Al could tell you how many starting variations of "Fun Races" there are.) In general, we can anticipate 2 straight up races per weekend based on qual times. So...that leaves us with either 1 or 2 inverted races for the weekend (assuming we're talking 3 or 4 race weekends).

Regarding within class/entire field....Remember our discussions earlier in 2006.

"As the AI & CMC fields of cars grow, the chances of us running the entire AI/CMC field inverted will go down."

For all the same reasons folks would rather not run with GPC/ETC (race out of class cars) we ideally don't want to throw AIX cars into the CMC mix during an inverted start. Now...put the fastest CMC car or AI car at the back of the CMC field or AI field respectively...and now we're talkin!!! That's where we are heading guys/girls!

Inverting the entire field makes sense when we have 10-20 cars....it makes less sense when we have 20-30 cars...and it'll make no sense when we have 30-40 cars. So...as we "grow up"...AI and CMC will race more independently of each other. (...and it'll be a moot point because you'll STILL have a number of cars to get around during an invert, just ones that are in your own class!!!)

We're just not 100% there yet and have to play nice together until we get there...right? RIGHT??? RIGHT??? RIGHT???
-=- T

[CMC17]

http://www.pariswells.org/pics/funny/cat.jpg

Who's next? Just don't get in my way.. mmmk?

[marshall_mosty]

Is this thread really worth the damage..... I keed.... I keed....

http://www.mustangmods.com/ims/u/1280/3889/125670.jpg

[Todd Covini]

Everyone....put the guns down!

(Whether they are pointed at your own head or at another competitor's head.)

Put the guns....DOWN.

Step away from your firearms, slowly....

Don't MAKE me lock this thread!!! :lol:

[Adam Ginsberg]

All you guys DO realize that RP is sitting back watching all this and laughing, right?

Yes. Yes he is. With great pleasure, I might add.

[Al Fernandez]

Eric...that is one GIANT cat in that picture! Or a pretty harmless gun...

There are about as many varieties of "invert" scenarios we've run as there are opinions on suspension settings for an AI car. I think Todd hit it on the head though: as car count goes up, the need/desire to intermix the classes goes down.

[mitchntx]

What's up with all the cat pics?

[GlennCMC70]

every time David trash talks CMC, a kitten dies. :cry:

[mitchntx]

In this thread alone ....

http://www.nekobox.org/comic/2006-03-17.jpg

http://www.innocentenglish.com/cute-animals/cute-kitten-3.jpg

http://www.thecatgallery.com/images/sleeping-kitten.jpg

http://www.benyah.net/gallery/albums/Chicago-Whitey-Stripy/chicagostickuppaws.jpg

http://dailykitten.com/kittens/1134742947G-sleeping.jpg

http://www.siamese-kittens.com/funny/images/pixel_sleeping.jpg

Shame on you David ...

And you posers need to find your OWN identity ... :x

[CMC17]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. It's when that line is crossed calling out other drivers in bad light that needs to stop.

Close racing is very fierce especially with the number of cars in CMC. AI and AIX haven't experienced the across the board parity yet and car count to even imagine what it's like in CMC.

I'm not out to run laps against myself at any point during the weekend. I came to do battle with other competitors in close combat. I know there is a chance that everytime I take the green flag that something could happen to dent a body panel. We try to minimize the risks, but the winning lotto number still eludes me.

I'm sure we won't see a fully inverted field in '07. Some like it, some don't and it's a matter of opinion...nothing more.

I still stand by my thoughts that for some... parade laps are quite competitive enough.

Stop laughing Richard!!! 8)

[CMC17]

Eric...that is one GIANT cat in that picture! Or a pretty harmless gun...



It's a hairball gun... quite harmless.

[marshall_mosty]

And you posers need to find your OWN identity ... :x

Fine dude...

http://www.mustangmods.com/ims/u/1280/3889/125702.jpg

[Garbage]

Yes, I went overboard on my postings. Ideas (as idiotic as they are) sometimes turn into policy. I prefer to stop it before it snowballs into policy.

No, I am not mad. Never was mad. Make me start at the back and then I will get angry. Will I race? You better believe it.

Yes, I wrote some strong statements. I have very strong feelings on this topic. Other topics posted in this forum don't affect me and thus don't bother me. As evidence, I am silent on this forum. Only reading people's thoughts and never reply. This idea has the potential to greatly affect me both financially and physically.

I know there are risk involved in racing. Every time I strap into my car I think about safety. I know I am there at the track to race and have fun. Why add to the risk? There is no reward for the added risk. No one is going to come to me and hand me money. No girl is going to give it up because I passed a bunch of cars on the start. Starting at the back and passing everyone doesn't make me more of a man. What is the incentive? There are no incentives. Fully inverted starts are pointless.

I have said my thoughts, now I will go back into my cave for my long winter's nap.

Will I change my mind about fully inverted starts when I wake up in February? No.

Sorry for affending the CMC crowd,
David

[GlennCMC70]

seems like a good place to put a lock.

[GlennCMC70]

j/k MikeB. :wink:

[AI#97]

IBTL....


you are ALL slow! 8)

Front, back or middle...makes no difference...you WILL ALL be passed! :twisted:



There, is THAT enough stirring of the pot to get you goofballs to laugh a little and drop this? Sheesh! :roll:

[Garbage]

Matt,

See if you can pass me next season. I gave you MSRH. Getting bored running away from the field on 7 cylinders and no 5th gear, I lifted with several minutes left in the race.

I thought about retaking my position, because I knew you would talk smack. But I also knew you where chasing Chris for points.

So all you posers, who think I have this hp and tq advantage, think again. I only had a tire advantage at MSRH.

That is changing as we speak for '07.

\\\\\\\\
David

[AI#97]

It's all good David! Smack is Good too! Gives us all something to do in the off-season! :wink:

besides, who knows what trim the silver slut will be in next season?! I do have my eye on that 550hp Grand Am motor my builder is trying to get me to bite on! :wink:

[Garbage]

Sluts do like things that are big. I say bite. My whore will be receiving 600hp and 500 tq. Everything is ordered and starting to arrive.

Look forward to sliding something big and meaningful between her strut towers.

A real AIX car is around the corner. Along with a new learning curve. Everything happens faster at faster speeds.

I had to rib you back dude.

See ya,
David

[AI#97]

I had to rib you back dude.

See ya,
David

No problem buddy! Just doin' a little bench racing here and there!

One thing you better start getting used to though is a VERY light right foot!!!! 600hp is going to do a number on your sphincter!!! :shock: 8)

[RichardP]

My whore will be receiving 600hp and 500 tq. Everything is ordered and starting to arrive.


Cool. With that much you should be able to pass CMC cars without them letting you by... :D


Richard P.

[Garbage]

Yup! You are correct Richard.

As far as I know, I have never had a problem this season getting around a CMC car.

Enough said on this subject.

David

[CMC17]

http://www.toilette-humor.com/images/funny_cat_problem.jpg

[Todd Covini]

[quote=Garbage]
I had to rib you back dude.


No problem buddy! Just doin' a little bench racing here and there!
[quote]

http://www.sportsbooksdvds.co.uk/cms/images/products/Chip%20n%20dale.jpg

The good thing about the two of you guys racing each other is that you BOTH can cross the finish line and BOTH get a class win!!! :lol:

Chip: After you.
Dale: No, you.
Chip: But I insist.
Dale: You're so kind, but I couldn't.
Chip: I dubiously declare, you really should go first....

(posted all in good F-U-N....all letters present and accounted for in FUN!)

-= T