MSR-H Turn 17

[CMC17]

If you would like to send the track General Manager a note with opinions regarding T17, please send an e-mail to:

al at msrhouston dot com

attn: Mr. Mitchell

Several notes have already been sent his way.

[GlennCMC70]

done.

[CMC17]

From Al Mitchell:

"Thank you for your input. The asphalt is the same asphalt that has been in turns 16 and 17 for the previous two NASA races. As to the turn 17, the turn has always exited against the pit wall. The fact that turn 17 is now narrower limits the speed through the turn and reduces the contact angle against the pit wall. All tracks have corners that have limited room on exit i.e. TWS, TMS, Mid-Ohio, etc, fortunately we just have one. Being an observer of most all the incidences in 17, they were always precipitated by a vehicle going off and electing to come back on the track directly in the line, showing little or no courtesy for fellow drivers. We do appreciate your comments, as we continue to strive to keep MSRHouston one of the safest tracks in North America.

Sincerely,

Al Mitchell"

Another e-mail address: Alrmitchell@aol.com

[jeffburch]

When is the next scca event there?
One of you locals maybe need to attend, observe and report back here regarding the happiness of those competitors after the event.
My money says a reconfig of that end of the track is inevitable.

Plus imagine having a problem with your car and you need to pit.
That pit entrance makes me nervous so I'm gonna watch to my left the track as I make my way on the little entrance road.
But wait, the hans device limits my head turning this far so I have to just pray no car finds my left door.
Call me Reuben Feffer.

jb

[RichardP]

they were always precipitated by a vehicle going off and electing to come back on the track directly in the line, showing little or no courtesy for fellow drivers.



Yea, that would be part of it. That's also a function of course design. A big mud bath right next to the most dangerous corner is probably not the best plan.

The other part of it would be the tires. As soon as the first person goes into the tires, the stored water is sprayed onto the track so the rest of the field can follow them in. It's contagious.

Strangely enough, both of these conditions (bath and tires) existed before the wall was moved and I don't ever remember an issue even when people did go off and drag stuff back onto the track...

It would be really cool if they just moved the wall back to where it was.


Richard P.

[michaelmosty]

From Al Mitchell:

"Thank you for your input. The asphalt is the same asphalt that has been in turns 16 and 17 for the previous two NASA races. As to the turn 17, the turn has always exited against the pit wall. The fact that turn 17 is now narrower limits the speed through the turn and reduces the contact angle against the pit wall. All tracks have corners that have limited room on exit i.e. TWS, TMS, Mid-Ohio, etc, fortunately we just have one. Being an observer of most all the incidences in 17, they were always precipitated by a vehicle going off and electing to come back on the track directly in the line, showing little or no courtesy for fellow drivers. We do appreciate your comments, as we continue to strive to keep MSRHouston one of the safest tracks in North America.

Sincerely,

Al Mitchell"

Another e-mail address: Alrmitchell@aol.com

Is it just me or does it seem that "Al Mitchell" is showing not only no sympathy but also no desire to resolve a "frustrating" (edited previous word) situation?
Your thoughts???

[AllZWay]

Is it just me or does it seem that "Al Mitchell" is showing not only no sympathy but also no desire to resolve a "frustrating" (edited previous word) situation?
Your thoughts???

They way he worded his response....that was the first thing that came to mind.

I expect him to break out the "Shut up and Drive" T-shirts that Eddie Gossage made for TMS back in 1997. :roll:

[marshall_mosty]

email sent. I'll post my email and reply when I get a response. I tried to be diplomatic.

[CMC17]

My second reponse to Al wasn't very diplomatic and looks like he's flat- lining me now. The last thing I want to see is someone either within this group or any group for that matter seriously injured when it can be prevented/minimized.

[NASA13]

From Al Mitchell:

"Thank you for your input. The asphalt is the same asphalt that has been in turns 16 and 17 for the previous two NASA races. As to the turn 17, the turn has always exited against the pit wall. The fact that turn 17 is now narrower limits the speed through the turn and reduces the contact angle against the pit wall. All tracks have corners that have limited room on exit i.e. TWS, TMS, Mid-Ohio, etc, fortunately we just have one. Being an observer of most all the incidences in 17, they were always precipitated by a vehicle going off and electing to come back on the track directly in the line, showing little or no courtesy for fellow drivers. We do appreciate your comments, as we continue to strive to keep MSRHouston one of the safest tracks in North America.

Sincerely,

Al Mitchell"

Another e-mail address: Alrmitchell@aol.com

Is it just me or does it seem that "Al Mitchell" is showing not only no sympathy but also no desire to resolve a "frustrating" (edited previous word) situation?
Your thoughts???


You are correct. Mr Mitchell doesnt have any regard for the Non F1 players at MSRH.
I have had dealings in the past and I have always hung up the phone frustrated and pissed off. What a Moron. I have never ever seen such a tight exit with mud and water at any track ever. When I helped build a Shifter track in Austin, we wrapped the tire walls in heat shrink so that when someone hit them, they would not spray water all over the track and cause the next driver to hit them. We also made sure that tire walls were a last resort by placing them as far away as possible. He has obviously not spent any time behind the wheel of a car that he has built and values.
They will only value NASA tx and our group when we are gone and they are broke $, oh wait they already are broke.

I am sorry the engineers were too ignorant to give the track a clear corner exit and a large pit road. That is terrible. However, if you have to choose between hitting something on pit road at 5mph or wrecking at corner exit into a grabby tire wall at 75mph, what should we choose. It is absolutely ridiculous that we even have to have this discussion. This defies anything resmbling logic. CRAZY.

[MCain]

From Al Mitchell:

... All tracks have corners that have limited room on exit i.e. TWS, TMS, Mid-Ohio, etc, fortunately we just have one. ...

Sincerely,

Al Mitchell"[/i]



I can only think of two at TWS that are remotely limited, T9 and T15. Wall impacts after T15 are pretty uncommon, and supposedly the tire wall at the exit of T9 is going to be moved back because ...da da dum... people were hitting it.

[Racebrat]

Hey Guys-

I have been reading this thread and have been having some of the same thoughts as y'all. The next SCCA event there is the Double National Feb 16-18. I'll try to get down there and report back on this particular topic after the weekend but if I don't make it I will definately give some drivers a call that I know will be there and get their views.

Don't forget that in addition to all the melee in turn 17 this past weekend, a SM flipped there after hitting that tire wall at our race in October.

I'm on board and agree with y'all 100% and will do whatever I can to help find a solution.

A

[marshall_mosty]

I'll be the first to say that I won't go back to MSR-H until they move the wall... and I'm not going to budge on that statement! :!:

[jeffburch]

SCCA is a part owner now.

Also, CART has an open practice soon.
The week prior to the GP in H.
Is it CART or OWRS?

jb

[Todd Covini]

Here are my notes on the subject:
1) First & Foremost...we should be able to drive whatever track that we're provided with. (See my Charles Darwin quote on adapting to change.)

Now...with that said, here are my other comments:
2) NASA TX is aware and Al and I had an extensive conversation with Jay & Shannon regarding the collective concerns of AI/CMC/GPC at the close of the weekend.

3) I almost smacked the wall on Saturday morning when I first went out because there really was no mention of the change and I planned to navigate that turn like I normally have the dozen times I've been there before. (I also had to adapt to the T1 changes with the more restrictive entrance.)

4) Having the tire wall there is akin to a street course. There are courses in road racing where every turn is like T17....track and K-wall. Let's not paint ourselves into a corner stating that we'll never run that type of a configuration.

5) Entry level pro-racing/club-racing and especially HPDE really could use a little more safety margin. Street course setups aren't for the faint of heart.

6) Lastly....I really think RP hit the nail on the head. Anyone can easily ignore all my points above but the root cause of the issue really lies with 1) the mud/sediment at the apex...and 2) the subsequent water from the infield runoff and water stored in those tires.

As the weekend went on, the conditions in that turn deteriorated. It was manageable on Saturday morning...but as soon as someone went off it made the turn tricky....then, as soon as the 1st person hit the tires...the turn was wet AND dirty...making it REALLY tricky.

Combine the (now) dirty track...with the wet track....with the closer tire wall and [presto chango] we've got a chain of errors. In and of themselves, each condition is not that much of a problem because the "chain is broken". But put all those things together...and we all have a problem.

In order to break the error chain, one or more of these things needs to happen:
1) We as racers have to take responsibility for running off track (creating debris) Let's face it, they're making changes to the track in order to scrub speed and prevent us from running off track.
2) The track needs to take responsibility for preventing the water on track. (infield ground runoff and/or water from tires)
3) Move the tires back and provide more margin for error if neither #1 or #2 aren't going to happen.

Let's face it...there's no problem with a clean T17 the way it sits now if everyone stays on track, there isn't any water/debris there and no-one hits the tires, right? :wink: :lol:

Break the chain....break the chain...break the chain.
<<I kinda like chanting after that banquet!>>

Just my opinion...posted as a racer, not a director.

-=- Todd

[GlennCMC70]

i'm really glad to see we all agree on this 100% and we are having a nice open dialog on this.
there needs to be lots of holes drilled or cuts made into those tires to stop them from holding water. this should be done prior to making a tire wall out of them.

sorry for the mud i drug on the track. i guess if i was going into that corner @ 10/10ths, i too would have hit the wall. how about they just pave that whole area w/ the mud over.

[michaelmosty]

Here are my notes on the subject:
1) First & Foremost...we should be able to drive whatever track that we're provided with. (See my Charles Darwin quote on adapting to change.)


Todd,
I understand your point but why not make a track safer for everyone.
How many incidents did we have last year at MSR-H w/ the wall at T-17? None that I can think of. Now after they change the placement we have three people that hit the wall just in our group alone.

People hit wall = BAD, no people hit wall = GOOD
If the ability is there to make a change, why not do it?? I know I'm new to the game but this seems like a no-brainer to me.

[Waco Racer]

There was a Spec Miata that flipped in the tire wall at the October event, as well as, other people that hit it in the other events. The driver of the SM is a very experienced driver, so it happens to the best of us(?). I track out right next to the wall and never had a problem until the surface condition changed. Only once did it get too close for comfort. The wall was moved to allow for more pit spaces at the SCCA enduro last year. Track surface condition is the real problem with that part of the track. If you happened to notice, the tire bundles on grid had slits and water in them. I would rather have the wall extended around to help separate pit lane than have the wall moved back. However, both would be nice.

[mitchntx]

Let me wade in here ...

After experiencing what 2 wheels off debris from a leading car would do to me entering 16 and the subsequent spin down pit road (see 2006 hi-lite reel) I vowed that day that I wouldn't run at Houston ever again. And I won't. It's just too dangerous.

A NASA-Tx season championship just isn't worth wrecking my car or sustaining injury. Marshall/Eric, would you agree or disagree?

With 10 cars in the run group, 3 sustained damage. Imagine 30 cars ...

Seeing the lack of respect the track shows to the paying customer drives the point home.

I think the reasons behind a low car count this weekend are now fairly obvious.

Advertising itself as a "country club" where the well-to-do bring out their toys to play, how can they justify track conditions that risk expensive exotic cars and high roller players?

It sounds like a business model hell bent on disaster.

Todd, I see your points ... honestly I do. But this is a clear cut case of safety for the racers and the crew working the event.

Let's put it in different terms ... If there was a driver on the track that caused 3 accidents would we collectively shrug our shoulders and say, "It's racing?" Would the track say something to Shannon about it?

Why is it "shut up and race" when the racers see the facility creating a hazard?

James, I was with Gossage and even have one of those shirts. But I see things a little differently now.

[Rob Liebbe]

i'm really glad to see we all agree on this 100% and we are having a nice open dialog on this.

I agree that it is nice to have agreement and a nice dialog, but sometimes a nice open dialog may not get the job done. A more emphatic or down-right mean course of action may be required. The nice letters and note sent so far seem to be falling on deaf ears.

Before they moved the wall - some incidents.

After they moved the wall - a BUNCH of unnecessary incidents.

Seems pretty clear to me.

[GlennCMC70]

Rob, i was talking about amoung us.

[oz98cobra]

Anyone have any pics of the new wall and other changes to MSRH?

It will be interesting to see how the SCCA races go in a couple weeks - it would be ironic if the changes that they themselves requested caused multiple incidents that results in them requesting that it be changed back again - we can only hope. Kevin Mixon will be there and can report if Adrian can't make it?

And what about DE orgs? That track isn't going to be very popular with any of them if folks in street cars start smacking that wall on a regular basis! :shock:

It might be worth keeping in mind that if the track does not fix it, NASA TX might be able to do something with a bunch of cones to alter the corner and make it safer - I haven't seen it so I have no idea what is possible, but it has been done before and it is worth looking into if we have no other alternative?

[Rob Liebbe]

Rob, i was talking about amoung us.

I know, but it seemed like the nice tone was carrying over to Al Mitchell with less than desireable results.

[Todd Covini]

Guys,
Let's get a collective effort up and work as a group thru NASA TX. We'll have more clout as customers of NASA TX...and then NASA TX as customers of MSRH.

Who wants to put together a strong draft letter to represent all the interests of the group?

-=- Todd

PS- This will be far more effective than a bunch of individual letters which get shorter & shorter responses from the track. The SCCA races will be very telling.

[GlennCMC70]

Chris Lyons is good w/ all that legal mumbo jumbo.

[mitchntx]

I volunteer ...

Here's the first draft ...

**********************
Dear Al,

Your track sucks.
Area body shop owners like it, though.

Cordially,

Cat Lover
***********************

Feel free to edit ...

8)

[RichardP]

Um, Mitch... What was that award you got at the banquet??? I'm having a hard time remembering... :roll: :D


Richard P.

[mitchntx]

Just keeping the bar high, Richard.

[NASA13]

A voice definitely needs to be heard Todd.
I think you are on the right track. We should also address the complete indifference of the mgmt.
If I owned that track and I had ten paying customers tear up their cars because I didnt have time/ energy to go get in my skid steer and move the wall back 15 ft before the race then I would be more than active in addressing these concerns.
This is really more than just concerns , this is blatant disregard for driver safety. I cannot think of one reason to have that wall there for normal races or country club. With that in mind, why is it there? It is not difficult to move, I could rent the equipment and move it myself in a few hours.
Why werent the drivers made aware of the new danger?
Why didnt ANYONE from the track come and see the carnage in our pits????
Why was it so slippery? why is there always a pond at the end of that corner? Why were the tires full of water? why ? why ? why? why oh why, please for humanity!!!
If I was running MSRH, you can bet your A$$ I would have been in the pits
talking to drivers and finding solutions.
Truth is, you cant find solutions when only half the party cares about the outcome. If they do not move the wall for SCCA then they are setting themselves up for some serious liability. We are very lucky that ten people hit the wall and none were seriously injured. What would we say if someone left on a stretcher??


As a business man, I cant see eye to eye with these people at all and frankly it is really getting under my skin.

[marshall_mosty]

Here is the email I sent to the Mr. Mitchell yesterday. I have not yet heard a response.

Mr. Michell,
I would like to provide some personal input regarding the track configuration utilized during the Feb. 3-4 NASA TX event with particular attention paid specifically to turns 16 & 17. I was one of the numerous unlucky drivers to contact the tire barrier on the "revised" section of race track.

I believe that the issues during the recent weekend would be minimized and/or eliminated if the K-wall was moved back to it's previous position as it was at the last NASA TX event in October 2006. The additional runoff room provided was helpful in keeping a car under control if there was the situation that debris (dirt, mud, water, etc) was brought onto the track. Under the current configuration, in my opinion, there is clearly not enough room to regain control of the car in order to minimize the risk of injury and damage to the driver and vehicle.

My specific incident was not caused by going off-track and coming back onto the racing line prior to impact. My vehicle lost grip on the asphalt in T17 due to debris on the track. The loss of traction did not allow for sufficient correction prior to contacting the tire wall and causing significant damage to my vehicle.

If you can please consider this request to return the pit wall to it's previous location, I'm certain that many racers would choose to return to your facility.



On a completely separate note, I believe that your track is a very dynamic, challenging circuit. I have been to your track with NASA numerous times within the last year and hopefully will return when my vehicle is repaired

[GlennCMC70]

Hey Guys-

I have been reading this thread and have been having some of the same thoughts as y'all. The next SCCA event there is the Double National Feb 16-18. I'll try to get down there and report back on this particular topic after the weekend but if I don't make it I will definately give some drivers a call that I know will be there and get their views.

Don't forget that in addition to all the melee in turn 17 this past weekend, a SM flipped there after hitting that tire wall at our race in October.

I'm on board and agree with y'all 100% and will do whatever I can to help find a solution.

A

so what is the input from the other racing class's? HPDE?

[rpoz27]

From Al Mitchell:

... All tracks have corners that have limited room on exit i.e. TWS, TMS, Mid-Ohio, etc, fortunately we just have one. ...

Sincerely,

Al Mitchell"[/i]



I can only think of two at TWS that are remotely limited, T9 and T15. Wall impacts after T15 are pretty uncommon, and supposedly the tire wall at the exit of T9 is going to be moved back because ...da da dum... people were hitting it.

And he, quite literally, means people. Coupla motorcycle guys separated from their rides during a race, slid under the airbag wall, and contacted tires and metal feet first. Lots of broken bones.

TWS is taking it seriously and has made plans to move the wall back with CMRA and other bike organizations input. At the last MSC, the guys that are going to do the work were out assessing the area.

A track layout change, like what was done with Turn 17, shouldn't be made solely to increase the comfort of a customer in the pits. A change that significant should be made only in the interest of increased safety to all concerned and with all aspects of increased safety addressed. Telling people to slow down through 17 is good advice and all, but crap happens. I know there was debris all through that corner during the GPC, etc. race. We had a gap about 3/4 of a car width and a foot or so off the apex that was relatively debris free and you had to keep it tight coming out of 16 for entry ,as well, because the entire outside of the track covered with chunks.

[jeffburch]

Yep, T9 scares the hell outta me.
My fault for walking the track back in '85.

jb

[dirwin]

Trash on the track nearly ALL the time, problem, track design problem, I don't really think so.

If MSR-H had had turns 16 & 17 set up this way since they first opened the track would there be all this? I think it is the fact that it changed.

Don't get me wrong, dirt and water on the track are a big hazard in 16 & 17 and should be fixed.

For everyone that went to Mid Ohio, remember turn 11, if you are running 10/10ths, don't pinch the corner, and run the CORRECT line you have 6 feet at track out from the concrete wall, put 2 off at track out and you are into a concrete barrier. But, that was how it was set up when we got there, and we just dealt with it. And just for the record, some 11 cars got into that wall in the week we were there and suffered some major damage.

Don't blast me, just my opinion.

Dave

[David Love AI27]

There was a Spec Miata that flipped in the tire wall at the October event, as well as, other people that hit it in the other events. The driver of the SM is a very experienced driver, so it happens to the best of us(?). I track out right next to the wall and never had a problem until the surface condition changed. Only once did it get too close for comfort. The wall was moved to allow for more pit spaces at the SCCA enduro last year. Track surface condition is the real problem with that part of the track. If you happened to notice, the tire bundles on grid had slits and water in them. I would rather have the wall extended around to help separate pit lane than have the wall moved back. However, both would be nice.

All tracks have their problem areas, it is up to us a drivers to be aware and adapt... remember the video posted just last year where the BMW got airbourn do to the new access road at Mid Ohio??? as to the cuts in the tires, Cooper did that to prevent the tires from being stolen and used on MY pickup... opps did I say that... Really tho the tires were purchased by or donated to Champcar... I went to the track yesterday and testing has already begun

[David Love AI27]

And what about DE orgs? That track isn't going to be very popular with any of them if folks in street cars start smacking that wall on a regular basis! :shock:



Jason and Cousin Todd ran the Neon for a total of 13 sessions and had no problems... HOWEVER they were not racing for position or "racing" at all for that matter... I, on the other hand, went out for two sessions first one was spent in the mud after sliding all the way to the tire wall, the second almost resulted in contact with the infamous wall @ 17 when I attempted to beat Jason's fast lap for the weekend... He won :evil:

[CMC17]

Opinions from those that weren't racing last weekend hold little to no merit IMHO. Ten cars were damaged within minutes/hours at that same location and it's still not perfectly clear there is a problem? Unless you experienced it last weekend in a racing environment, then you guys have no idea what it was like.


Round of "I told you so" will be in order next time out from the stands. Have fun out there...but not me, it's too dangerous for those that are actually racing.

[dirwin]

I've been on that track several times, no, I wasn't there last weekend, but this track is not new to me.

Rookie driver in a Miata got in to the wall at 17, he was driving one of MY cars, his words "I tried to drive the same line as in October and it didn't work".

You don't have to be there in your "racing environment" to know what happened "IMHO" as you put it.

[TEXAST1]

Just trying to lengthen the post;

1st, I can not attend the SCCA Double National because the SCCA has rendered my Corvette unraceable without thousands of dollars spent to make it slower and heavier. B Prepared was supposed to be "Club WCGT" but they had to through in some "Extras."

Just a note, many of the legandary older tracks that have "Death Walls" are removing them and changing the tracks to make them safer.

[jeffburch]

Yup, Road Atlanta is one.
Seems as though the AMA Superbikes have some considerable influence these days.

jb

[mitchntx]

I was there, but not racing. I did hear the angst billowing through the pits about debris induced traction issues at a very critical point of the track.

That being said ...

I understand that a racer has to be able to adapt to either permenant or temprary track conditions. That is a given.

The issue I see here is a terrible lack of communication by the track (or even NASA-Tx) about the permenant or fixed changes. If NASA-Tx knew about it, shame on them for not mentioning it in saturday's driver's meeting. If the track didn't mention it, shame on them.

Friday evening offered an opportunity for driver's to walk the track. So, shame on the drivers for not ENSURING that the track was status quo.

However, the track going cold at 5pm, leaving only about 45 minutes of daylight hindered this effort.

Let's also not lose sight of the fact that none of us are Micheal Schumacher. We're just folks who can muster enough disposable income in order to go racing. Expectations need to be tailored accordingly.

The blame-game, finger pointing can go on for a long time. Lots of blame to spread around

My take on it is simple ... if there is a safer solution, why not use it? Work-arounds will get someone in trouble eventually.

HANS devices, door bars, right side head restraints ... I prefer to not have to count on them, if you know what I mean.

[oz98cobra]

Some people seem to be suggesting here that if a track has a dangerous feature, or makes a change that induces a dangerous feature, that we as drivers should just take note, adapt accordingly, and shut up and race on it?? :?

I'm sorry, but if drivers took that attitude to racing, we'd still be racing in t-shirts, baseball helmets, and with nothing more than a few very flammable hay bales between us and concrete walls! :shock:

Safety is ABSOLUTELY PARAMOUNT in all forms of racing today, and should be doubly so in non-professional grass roots racing such as we are involved in. No one has more influence over safety issues than those who it directly affects - the racers themselves. Of course drivers need to be aware of track conditions and drive accordingly, but as racers, we also have an obligation to bring potentially unsafe circumstances to the attention of track and/or event officials, and conversely, track or event officials have an obligation to address those concerns!

Regardless of the cause, the fact is that 9 or so cars hit a wall and suffered damage in a short space or time at a place on the track where incidents were previously relatively infrequent. Thankfully no one was injured - this time - but many of the drivers involved, or who witnessed this are now voicing concerns about safety - enough concern to not drive the track again unless something changes. Obviously the issue needs to be addressed before the next NASA event there - or the car count is likely to be very small indeed! I think you guys are doing the right thing by raising your concerns with the track and NASA TX.

[CMC17]

Has anyone received a response from Mr. Mitchell since yesterday? I'm pretty sure I've made the ignore list, but curious if anyone is still in contact with him.

Obviously, there is a problem with what MSR-H considers "safe" and it's also unfortunate that some were told at the track that it's not a NASA TX problem and if we have an issue with the track, we need to contact them directly.

[Al Fernandez]

I only drove this during an hpde session in Todd's car, so when I saw the layout of this turn I was...uhh..pussy footing it there to say the least. Going full tilt in a cmc car, what gear and rpm are you fast guys in?

[GlennCMC70]

2nd.

RPM? right foot flat to the floor!

[Al Fernandez]

Glenn, I need data from fastguys! :wink: kidding!

Ok, and how much runoff was there before?

[GlennCMC70]

go back and watch the 2006 year in review vid. in it there is a shot taken from towards T1 looking back to T17. there you will see a yellow line on the left of the track and down by T17 that line jogs to the left. now the wall covers that line and has no jog.

[Todd Covini]

Going full tilt in a cmc car, what gear and rpm are you fast guys in?

5 to 3 downshift at the entrance.
Apexing in 3rd gear ~3300 rpm
I should have given you a ride while I had the chance.
Too busy hooking another newbie into the series!!! :lol:

-=- Todd

[marshall_mosty]

HANS devices, door bars, right side head restraints ... I prefer to not have to count on them, if you know what I mean.

Unfortunately I had to count on all three. They all worked and there was no injury except to sheet metal and a bit of my pride.

This whole exercise that is playing out now, in my mind, is more based on principal than anything else.

I've expressed my concerns both directly to Mr. Mitchell as well as to NASA TX. I won't be back to MSR-H until there is a change of some sort that can minimize the "issues" with that corner... period.

(The last comment sounds bitter... I'm not mad, just frustrated) :?


For the record, I sent the emails yesterday and have not heard anything from either party. However, I do really hope that I hear something from NASA TX...

[Todd Covini]

Marshall and all,
Let's stick with our plan of putting together a collective effort, letter on behalf of all of us to NASA Texas.

They will be working with MSRH in the coming weeks and will monitor the SCCA double-nationals. I don't think anything is going to happen before then.

After the SCCA event, we'll present our case via NASA TX to MSRH and see what the outcome is.

Since no-one has taken a stab at a letter, I'll add that to my list of To-Do's for this weekend and sign it on behalf of the group with AI/CMC letterhead and post the draft here before submitting. I'll use this forum for my list of included drivers and if you haven't already requested to be added to the list, say so here.

Look for the draft in the coming days.
Power in numbers....I am AI/CMC.
'mmember? :wink:

-=- Todd

[Al Fernandez]

I think the lack of prep on the tires, which resulted in slimy and muddy conditions really made the situation what it is. I mean, nobody hit the wall all of saturday when there were a lot more track sessions. Then sunday nobody hit it all morning until our session. Suddenly every other car is off? Obviously the crap on the track had a huge influence, and was because of little preparation of the tire barriers (such as drainage or wrapping).

All that said, I agree whole heartedly that msr-h mgmt should do whatever they can to make their track more enjoyable for ammateur racers. I wouldnt go as far as not driving there any more though, but thats just me. I know of a lot of turns that are a lot more treacherous (not in tx since I dont know the tracks here! haha) like almost all of Laguna, turn 10 at Sears Point (where both Tony G and I have destroyed cars), the 2nd to last turn at Cal Super Speedway, and on and on, and I still drive those tracks, I just tone it down in those specific turns.

Todd, thanks for taking the lead on a letter to NASA-Tx. I think that has the best chance of leading to action in our favor.

[mitchntx]

All that said, I agree whole heartedly that msr-h mgmt should do whatever they can to make their track more enjoyable for ammateur racers. I wouldnt go as far as not driving there any more though, but thats just me. I know of a lot of turns that are a lot more treacherous (not in tx since I dont know the tracks here! haha) like almost all of Laguna, turn 10 at Sears Point (where both Tony G and I have destroyed cars), the 2nd to last turn at Cal Super Speedway, and on and on, and I still drive those tracks, I just tone it down in those specific turns.


I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you. T9 and TWS is a bear as is T3. The bitch at Hallett has snagged it's share of cars and even ricochet at MSR-C has seen each of us going agricultural.

Last year, when all of us first entered the T16/17 complex at Houston saw that wall and gave it tremendous respect. We all saw that the track had moved the wall back far enough to give a driver a little breathing room.

The wall itself is not necessarily the issue. It's the fact that there is a safer configuration that has been used, it's a simple and inexpensive fix and track management is indifferent, at this point.

Racing is inherently dangerous. We all know that and we take that risk. But, like any other reg that comes down the pike that attempts to minimize injury or damage from the risks, tracks have to do the same.

Mid-Ohio didn't leave the culvert alone after the Joey Hand crash. It was reconfigured so that it didn't happen again.

[Al Fernandez]

Now I know the world is coming to an end...Mitch and I completely agreeing on something! :lol:

Now, about those roof bars...[/img]

[mitchntx]

Yes ... get your head out of the sand ... :lol:

[chicane23]

BTW, Hallett is a perfect example of a track that cares.

They are adding Air Fences http://www.airfence.com/ to a few different turns to help increase safety.

I personally received an email from Scott and will be making an effort to spread the word.


Here is a thread http://forums.okscca.org/viewtopic.php?p=534&sid=fa0a63f2c9d8b120f930b33bcfc53f7b


Maybe we should send this to MST-Houston. ;-)

[oz98cobra]

JG, it's my understanding that the Airfence is a motorcycle safety device - that is certainly what it was developed for when I first saw it being developed downunder, and their website doesn't indicate anything different today?

I'm not so sure that Hallett would want to have their expensive fence system that is undoubtedly being purchased for motorcycle events torn up by big heavy cars?

Of course, this doesn't change the validity of your opening comment - that Hallett is a track that cares! :)

[CMC17]

<<<<<UPDATE ANYONE??>>>>>

Anyone have updated information regarding this issue at MSRH?? At least post something in here to let us that aren't in the "know" what's going on.

[marshall_mosty]

I still have not yet heard from either Mr. Mitchell or NASA TX. I'm beginning to get frustrated...

Just sent another email to both parties...

[Waco Racer]

We are waiting until after the SCCA Double National before any decisions are made.

A couple more points to think about with ths discussion are:

1. Speed of the cars through the corner with the wall where it is now and where is was before.

2. The angle of the out-of-control vehicles as they impacted the wall with the wall where it is now and where is was before - i.e. which part of the car took the biggest impact.

[marshall_mosty]

I just received the following from Mr. Mitchell. Looks like we "may" not be the only one having issues. However, that is interpretation from his email. YMMV.


We appreciate all feed back on the track. We we have many sources of imput over the weeks with Champ Car's sanctioned test over the past six days, the double national this weekend and Daytona Prototypes/ALMS car in next week.

Thanks,

Al

[CMC17]

We are waiting until after the SCCA Double National before any decisions are made.

A couple more points to think about with ths discussion are:

1. Speed of the cars through the corner with the wall where it is now and where is was before.

2. The angle of the out-of-control vehicles as they impacted the wall with the wall where it is now and where is was before - i.e. which part of the car took the biggest impact.

One question or issue would be if the SCCA event has the same conditions as what we had during out event. If the mud pit has dried out, then the likelyhood of seeing what we went through might not happen.

However, if the conditions are dry and there are cars that still smack the wall, then that's even worse.

With CMC18, I caught the really slick part with the rear tires and partially with the fronts. I slid into the tires with the passenger side quarter panel impacting first. Had the wall not been in its current location, no contact would have been made at all. I would have only lost positions.

.02

[marshall_mosty]

I received the following from Mr. Mitchell last last night.


SCCA raced on it in November and preferred the new configuration. The Forsythe, Newman-Hass, Conquest, Dale Coyne Racing, Rocketsports, Pacific Coast and PKV Champ Car teams tested on it privately in Nov and Dec and definitely like the new configuration better.The Forsythe(3 different trips), Conquest, Derrick Walker(3 different times), Conquest(twice), Gelles(twice), Jensen Motorsports, Newman-Wachs, and US Racetronics Altantics tested privately in Oct, Nov, Dec, and Jan and all prefer the new configuration. Two Ferrari Challenge teams one with 6 cars the other with 4 cars tested privately and never had a issue with turn 17. The Champ Car Atlantic sanctioned test was Fri and Sat with every Atlantic team in the series participating. Most of the 26 cars did between 250 and 300 miles in cold conditions each day and 1 car had wall contact. Every Champ Car team tested today in the rain and not one car had contact with the wall.

The three real issues are 1) It reduces the speed in 17, in either configuration people maximize the width of the track running out against the wall, the new configuration reduces the speed, 2) It reduces the speed of cars entering 1, providing for less excursions off the track, 3) It reduces the angle of the wall to a 90 degree approach opposed to greater than 90 degrees.

In the previous configuration, when there was contact, it was major contact. Putting the driver at a greater risk than necessary. Even if there is more frequent contact with 17 being narrower, it is at reduced speeds, providing safer conditions for the driver and minimizing damage to vehicles.

In either configuration, 95% of contact has been when a car goes off the track between 16 and 17 and pulls directly back on the racing line with no consideration of their fellow drivers. This is exactly what happened at the NASA weekend. This is also the reason, we have no issues when we have professional racing teams testing, even in large numbers like last Fri and Sat. When a driver went off in 16 and 17, they either continued to the pit lane or if they did pull back on the track it was well off line.

All of this being said, we are always endeavoring to enhance the track and do appreciate all feed back. We always analyze events, tests, member days, and illicit feed back to insure that MSRHouston provides the safest feasible track possible.

Looks like this might be a fact of life to race at Houston. I might just have to eat crow and change my driving style if I want to race more than a few times a year. :(

[CMC17]

Looks like we are SOL trying to get the wall moved.

Before I'd race again at this track the following would need to happen.

1. Any driver who goes off between 16 - 17 and pulls back on the racing surface (if the conditions are wet/muddy..etc.) or racing line will be given a DQ for that race.

2. It is stressed to the highest possible degree that we make T17 safer by reducing speeds through it.

3. Have an official close or near that corner to monitor all actions/conditions.

4. If debris is on or near the GDMF T17, throw out the yellow at the flag station before T15/T16/T17. A debris flag is nice, but won't stop passing. Yellow w/Debris flag = priceless

[GlennCMC70]

Looks like we are SOL trying to get the wall moved.

Before I'd race again at this track the following would need to happen.

1. Any driver who goes off between 16 - 17 and pulls back on the racing surface (if the conditions are wet/muddy..etc.) or racing line will be given a DQ for that race.

2. It is stressed to the highest possible degree that we make T17 safer by reducing speeds through it.

3. Have an official close or near that corner to monitor all actions/conditions.

4. If debris is on or near the GDMF T17, throw out the yellow at the flag station before T15/T16/T17. A debris flag is nice, but won't stop passing. Yellow w/Debris flag = priceless

1) so would you apply that to corners 1-15?
2) good sugestion. any ideas? a chicane?
3) adds value to the safety broadcast.
4) see # 3.

[CMC17]

Looks like we are SOL trying to get the wall moved.

Before I'd race again at this track the following would need to happen.

1. Any driver who goes off between 16 - 17 and pulls back on the racing surface (if the conditions are wet/muddy..etc.) or racing line will be given a DQ for that race.

2. It is stressed to the highest possible degree that we make T17 safer by reducing speeds through it.

3. Have an official close or near that corner to monitor all actions/conditions.

4. If debris is on or near the GDMF T17, throw out the yellow at the flag station before T15/T16/T17. A debris flag is nice, but won't stop passing. Yellow w/Debris flag = priceless

1) so would you apply that to corners 1-15?
2) good sugestion. any ideas? a chicane?
3) adds value to the safety broadcast.
4) see # 3.

1. Uh, why would it apply to those corners? Nothing to hit except more dirt/mud/grass (think - wall... stationary objects..etc.)
2. Speed limit (lower for GM's)
3. SB is nice if "everyone" has a radio - mandatory? Rules?

My Cheerios didn't taste good at all this morning.

[GlennCMC70]

well i'm not placing blame on you for what happened. so dont get defensive, o.k.?
when i saw the debris flag in the straight before 15/16/17, i slowed some and changed my line thru that corner. i gave up alot to you and it made my life hell thru that corner w/ you on my ass. did i get lucky? not sure. but i did make a change. that debris flag had been out for about 4-5 laps before you had your issue.

the S/B is not manditoy. its possible it will be. things like this add value to why if should be. i did not have a radio in my car @ any point durring the weekend. i have all the gear, just not the radios.

[CMC17]

I'm not blaming anyone or pointing fingers other than at myself. You changed your line and I subsequently changed mine to get a better run out of T17. Unfortunately, the "debris" spread more than I anticipated causing my rear tire to lose grip and slid the rest of the rear around enough to be a passenger and then contacting the tires.

Yes, I knew where the debris was and it didn't initally cause a problem with my line - even at 10/10ths. I won't go into strategy details, but there's a lesson to be learned and one of those is the track officials might want to take a closer look at that particular corner next time and maybe issue a yellow w/debris flag. Every situation is dynamic.

What really makes me upset is that this was the first time I've ever hit a stationary object and even worse - it wasn't even my car.

Yeah, it's going to take a while to get over it. Might as well ban me now.

[y5e06]

nevermind.

[GlennCMC70]

no reason to ban you......... yet! :wink:
glad your not offended by what i said.
no reason the officials cant do exactly what your asking them to, take a look. it was an issue for more than one lap. they may or may not have known.

[michaelmosty]

Just my $.02, no disrespect towards anyone.

MSR-H is a business with customers. NASA TX is a business with customers.

I would like to see NASA TX determine the wall configuration they want to run for each event.
A. Pushed back (like last year)
B. Moved up (like this year)
Once NASA TX makes a decision on either A or B, go to MSR-H and tell them this is the track configuration they want to run during their event. I would like to think that Mr. Mitchell, as a businessman, would keep his client(s) (NASA TX) happy and set up the track to their wishes. If this means spending 5 hours on Friday afternoon (before an event) moving a wall back to a previous configuration to satisfy a client, then this should be done.

My issue is the apparent lack of care or concern that Mr. Mitchell gives NASA TX and their racers!!!

[marshall_mosty]

I'd even propose for NASA TX to pay Mr. Mitchell for his time. I couldn't see it taking more than an hour to move the tires and wall section back. Two people at $20/hr would put you at $80 to move the wall. Charge NASA TX $300 and increase the entry fee by a few bucks (less than $5).

I personally would gladly pay the difference to have the added safety margin. (Considering I could pay that $5 many times over for what it is taking to fix the car...)

Just an idea to ponder. Clifton, can you respond to acknowledge my idea.

[michaelmosty]

I think it is bullsh!t to pay someone for their time to get "their" facility ready for an event.
Repaving crappy sections of the track, replacing the soap in the restrooms, moving tires and a wall, sweeping up the pit area: these are all things an owner of a facility should do to prepare for an event. :roll:

[oz98cobra]

Mr Mitchell said "...It reduces the speed in 17, in either configuration people maximize the width of the track running out against the wall, the new configuration reduces the speed..."

Perhaps this might apply to champ cars and a very small number of club racers who have no regard for their car or safety, but it certainly did not apply to me, or most of the people I saw racing there - in our group or any other!

I found very little advantage, but lots of potential pain by using all the available track with the old turn 17 config - so I used to track out so that I was parallel with the main wall - which meant that if I did over cook it a little, or lose grip, I had plenty of wiggle room before I hit the wall. With the new configuration, we have lost our wiggle room completely. Any momentary lapse of concentration or change in grip from the previous lap IS going to end up with cars into the wall.

If the config remains as it is now, I still say that NASA TX can and should investigate the possibility of artificially giving us some wiggle room back by changing something at that corner such as a line of cones? (note I said investigate - I don't know for sure if it will work or not, but it is worth considering).

[CMC17]

SCCA raced on it in November and preferred the new configuration.

I'm afraid unless our series has SCCA in it, whatever we say or request will fall on deaf ears.

[cmarvel]

Yep. SCCA is a part owner, so they get what they want.

[Waco Racer]

Race Director Cowboy hat on:

I am listening very carefully to all of the suggestions made by this group. Some ideas are better, or more feasible, than others. One tricky part about moving the wall is that MSRH doesn’t offer multiple configurations with different rates. Flags and cones are something that NASA Texas will consider for the next event, as well as, mentioning it in the Drivers’ meeting. :oops:

I do like this statement from Mr. Mitchell - "In either configuration, 95% of contact has been when a car goes off the track between 16 and 17 and pulls directly back on the racing line with no consideration of their fellow drivers. This is exactly what happened at the NASA weekend. This is also the reason, we have no issues when we have professional racing teams testing, even in large numbers like last Fri and Sat. When a driver went off in 16 and 17, they either continued to the pit lane or if they did pull back on the track it was well off line." This is something all racers should consider.

I don't like y'all hitting the wall either. Trust me on this one, we ARE looking out for the safety of our racers.




Sideways Cowboy hat on:

p.s. Tire walls are real stubborn about filling out BC reports.

p.p.s. Can you feel the love so close to Valentines day?

[oz98cobra]

I must be just stoopid and inexperienced or something, but unless you have spun to the inside, can someone please explain to me how you can "pull back on track well offline" if you have run off at 16/17?

Yes you can and should stay well off the wall out of 17, but you have to cross the line somewhere if you come back on track, so if you are tracking mud, you are still going to make it slick somewhere in the corner?

[NASA13]

I have a solution that should work for everyone inlvolved.
Screw Houston and their rice patties. It is a WIN WIN

I am sure when we are "professional" racers then we will stop hitting their walls. I know when I build a track I will be anxious to see the pros drive really close to my poorly placed walls. It works for NASCAR, why not for a "country club" race car"
It should at least get the spectator count up. I know everyone wants to see the carnage.
This is all still, so ridiculous. I want to look away but I cant!
I dont care about angles and BS, if people are hitting the damn wall then move it. We are lucky that more people were not tangled up at once, and hurt.

This is not city traffic. We are not discussing the difference between a circle and an intersection.
Sure, I like circles because glancing blows are much better than T bones.
This is totally different. They have room to move the wall back and they refuse to do it, based on their "professional" opinions. Never before have ten racers hit the wall in the old placement. Sure it still sucked (terrible engineering)but nothing like it is now.
I might agree if there was one or two hits; BUT TEN? C'mon, are you guys serious. Ten bad drivers who wont ever make the pros?? GIVE ME A BREAK>

<angry>




:twisted:

[Todd Covini]

See the attached letter which was emailed today.
Please remain professional on this matter as it will be much more effective!

-=- Todd

[donovan]

Thanks for doing that Todd... Had a good time today, just wish we could have spend more time watching the races.

I really would have liked to see that race finish out without the T17 incidents, would have been a great finish with those guys swapping position four or five times before the incidents. Very sad.

DD

[Rob Liebbe]

Very good. I hope the situation is rectified. May I also suggest that this be shared with other series directors so that they may also send letters if they have not already done so.

[marshall_mosty]

Todd,
Very well written. Michael talked with David this afternoon, so I had a brief of the carnage... Hopefully this will help us in our quest for a safer MSR-H.

I appreciate the effort you put into this.

[jeffburch]

More T17 carnage today.
Details pls.
jb

[Boudy]

Todd: Thank you sir.

Boudy

[NASA13]

Thanks Todd, great job.
Now quit erasing my slander. This is my only outlet. :P :P

JB
SM had 5 or 6 cars hit the wall as I understand. Mr Mitchell(non professional) included. I bet he could hear every email ringing in his ears
as he was sliding into that stupid wall. I would not wish that fate on anyone, but it sure is ironic.
The carnage:
Same exact story as our incidents only worse. I just hope everyone was ok.

I bet MSRH will have an ops manager position open up soon if anyone is interested.

[jeffburch]

Hmmm.

a Nelson ........................ Haaaa-Haaa
comes to mind.

[chicane23]

Great job Todd!

[AllZWay]

More T17 carnage today.
Details pls.
jb

Yes...more details.

[Waco Racer]

FYI, NASA Texas is on top of the situation. :wink:




Hmmm.

a Nelson ........................ Haaaa-Haaa
comes to mind.

That is funny!