Class Spec discussion

This is my response posted on National Forum.

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I personally still object to the move to consolidate CMC and CMC2.

The "low end" cost of running a "near factory" car with parts I had on-hand was one of the main draws for me to go CMC. Reliability and cost effectiveness was a huge factor for me when commiting to CMC over AI. Now you are saying that I will need to upgrade and/or reconsider several systems on my car to deal with the rigors of more horsepower and added weight. This includes engine, transmission, cooling, brakes, tires, wheels, etc. I don't believe it is as simple as putting in a cam and bolting on headers and a throttle body. That may get you the number on the dyno easy enough, but making it live on the track will be different. The later model CMC2 cars were designed from the factory with these new levels in mind and should already be able to run at that level with relative ease. They have the proper engineering and packaging for the aforementioned vehicle systems.

In the end, I still don't see the real need to combine the early cars and the later cars. I've heard some of the arguments from car count to sponsorship considerations. It seems like car count would decrease from the combination by taking away some flexibility in vehicle choice where having both CMC and CMC2 adds flexibility and would increase car count.

It seems like you are forcing those with current CMC cars who are currently happy to spend more money to upgrade to CMC2 for no real reason.

I'll stop rambling now, but I still don't see the need to combine the early and later cars. The two "generations" of cars are different and can and should be treated differently.

Rob Liebbe
Texas Region
1989 Mustang - CMC #1

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LONG LIVE CMC (The original - not the proposal)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AllZWay

I was ticked off when CMC2 was created....and this just adds fuel to that old fire.

I expected this day to come, but I was not ever looking forward to being AI-lite.

I am lucky in that my car is a simple pull of the resctrictor, so I don't have a complaint as much as the Fox's and 3rd gens do, but I see new wheels and bigger brakes in the future. :evil:

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As a Fox owner this does not bother me at all unless this makes it hard to get a motor to last. I really don't understand why we would need larger brakes or tires? Jay ran his heaver and faster Mach One for three years of DE's with the same brakes we run in CMC without issue.

JJ

Good post, Rob.
That original CMC formula and philosophy is exactly what we are trying to keep in tact.

10 Years ago, the CMC power #'s and parts were consistent with what entry level racers were bringing to convert their street cars.

Today, the power #'s and parts that the contemporary pony cars have are above that of the current CMC level.

The reality of it is, in order to keep the feeder pool of new CMC drivers bringing their street cars to enter the CMC ranks, we need to keep with the times. I noted recently that used car lots now have numerous S197 Mustangs and 4th Gen Camaros on their lots at bargain prices and 3Gen & Fox cars are no longer the norm.

Our challenge will be to evolve with minimal effect to current CMC Fox/3G racers. This change has a huge impact on my car since it is Speed Density. I'm maxed out on power for my ECU. In order for me to make any engine changes, I'll need to convert to Mass Air and find 30 HP to a package which has been rock solid for me for over 10 years of racing (no comments please).

Short term, the change sucks. Long term...and in the bigger picture, it's best for the series as a whole. As far as the timing and the details, treat this as we did for the HANS requirement. The date may slide and the details will continue to be evaluated...but ultimately, it's where we need to head to when the time and details are right.

Todd Covini
Director

Are the newer cars way heavier? If not, why do we need to go with larger brakes and larger wheels and tires. Is there no formula that we could use for power to weight to make a fox car at 230/300 even with a CMC-2 car? Years ago (in the late 70's) I helped a guy that ran 1/4 mile round-d-round. In the faster classes (super stock) you could run a big block or a small block and everything was equaled out using weight.

Jerry

I am just speculating but I would think the heaviest car (LS1 or S197) would be around 3250?

They currently run 280 hp @ 3360. By changing to 260 should definitely lower their weight.

That being said, I would think all weights will need to be re-thought for all platforms.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Todd Covini

The reality of it is, in order to keep the feeder pool of new CMC drivers bringing their street cars to enter the CMC ranks, we need to keep with the times. I noted recently that used car lots now have numerous S197 Mustangs and 4th Gen Camaros on their lots at bargain prices and 3Gen & Fox cars are no longer the norm.
Todd Covini
Director

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This works both ways tho. There are still newcomers who find bargain deals on 3Gs and foxes. While it will help those who have 4th gens and S197s, it makes the guys/girls wik the old cars reconsider joining.

It also makes the older cars that don't get updated obsolete and have no place to run. OK , you can run, but you may go from a front runner to a back marker. That's ok, the housing market has tanked, I guess my CMC car value should go to zero as well. Burch, you better sell your car quick!!!

I still don't like the idea. Why doesn't a similar but different class work. Like GTO and GTU?

I keep hearing that this change is where the class needs to go, but I don't recall hearing the reasons why. I don't want to just drink the KoolAid.

Yup, that old hooptie is leading the points.
I'll do it again next year aswell to punish all for not getting a pool together on it. :wink:
:D
jb

man this really sucks ya'll. I need DETAILS!!! All I can do right now is bodywork and cage stuff!! I'm building an obsolete car!!!!



ok panic over.....I'm good. :shock:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Todd Covini

Good post, Rob.
That original CMC formula and philosophy is exactly what we are trying to keep in tact.

10 Years ago, the CMC power #'s and parts were consistent with what entry level racers were bringing to convert their street cars.

Today, the power #'s and parts that the contemporary pony cars have are above that of the current CMC level.

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Forgive me for being naive, but that sounds like robbing Peter to pay Paul, cutting off the left hand to spite the right, banging Hilary and voting for Obama ...

Placing a group of racers in a corner and saying "Oh well" is no better than saying sorry, "your car is too new".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Todd Covini

The reality of it is, in order to keep the feeder pool of new CMC drivers bringing their street cars to enter the CMC ranks, we need to keep with the times. I noted recently that used car lots now have numerous S197 Mustangs and 4th Gen Camaros on their lots at bargain prices and 3Gen & Fox cars are no longer the norm.

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Your reality obviously means more than other's reality.

From where I stand, newcomers are witnessing significant swings in the rules. History means nothing to those guys, only those still living and worshiping it.

The reality is a series of steps in place for a person to go racing and then a buffet of classes to chose where to race.

The idea of 50 cars in CMC is better than 25 in CMC and 25 in CMC2 is ludicrous. In order to maintain a place to race, CMC has to build NASA and keep NASA afloat. Choices is what the future will hold.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Todd Covini

Our challenge will be to evolve with minimal effect to current CMC Fox/3G racers. This change has a huge impact on my car since it is Speed Density. I'm maxed out on power for my ECU. In order for me to make any engine changes, I'll need to convert to Mass Air and find 30 HP to a package which has been rock solid for me for over 10 years of racing (no comments please).

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Rock solid in some cases and light as a feather in others ... ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Todd Covini

Short term, the change sucks. Long term...and in the bigger picture, it's best for the series as a whole. As far as the timing and the details, treat this as we did for the HANS requirement. The date may slide and the details will continue to be evaluated...but ultimately, it's where we need to head to when the time and details are right.

Todd Covini
Director

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No one has explained how merging the 2 classes is "better'?

You brought up the history of CMC and the roots of the series, how is forcing the cornerstone of CMC racing (3G and Fox) into making wholesale changes make the series better or fit into a 10 year old model?

Realize, owning and selling LT1 4th gens puts LAW Motorsports in a prime position. Merging will be great for us. But looking at the big picture through Todd's rose colored glasses, makes me wonder ... if no one is racing anywhere, how is that good?