More nationals info

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Originally Posted by Adam Ginsberg

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Originally Posted by GlennCMC70

Your right, I wasnt there. I did however spend alot of time on the phone w/ Al over the last few days. Your were specifically mentioned as having a fix it ticket. My facts are straight, as they were presented to me.

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Your "facts" are incorrect. There was no 'fix it ticket' noted in my logbook. You weren't there, so telling me what did or didn't happen doesn't work very well.

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Because Al told me so today.

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So, let me say it again - there was no 'fix it ticket' noted in my logbook. The car passed each tech inspection, including the initial tech by Covini on Wednesday evening.

Unless, the "fix it" you are referring to was the missing car classifications and numbers on the front and back. Which was fixed Wednesday evening.

Is that the same as lexan windows?? Let's stay on point.

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But lets redirect back to Don's car. Care to respond to that?

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No, I won't redirect back to Don's car - you are still obfuscating the real issue - naming a National Champ with lexan windows, and not a single CMC competitor was aware of this issue. Let's stay on point.

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I dont see it as a mistake. But rather a decition he made that likely differs from mine or yours. Its his to make. You are in no greater position to say he is wrong than I am to say he's not. You say I'm turing it around on you, but really I'm just offering a counter POV.

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What you've been doing is pointing out various items that direct attention away from the real issue - a car was deemed the National Champion that has lexan windows, and not a single other CMC driver was made aware of Al's decision of a "fix it ticket".

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So I expect you will be calling for a DQ on Don as well, right? Fair is fair. He was allowed to run in a manner less than 100% legal.

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Ok, I'll bite. Just so we're all on the same page - you are intimating that Don's missing dash plates are the exact same performance advantage as lexan windows?

Clearly, one could argue the weight difference. Let's see.....less than 1lb of sheet aluminum vs. two glass windows replaced with lexan. Same?

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I guess you think that is a right you have. Sorry to inform you, but it is not. Al makes that call.

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Al notified all the CMC2 drivers that a CMC2 car didn't meet the track width rule by 1/8". He left it up to the drivers to decide. He wasn't consistent in letting the CMC driver's make the same decision. He didn't even let us know there was a car with lexan windows.

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I dont think you should be, never said it. But reporting to impound was required to maintain a legal status. You did not, but was given a place above Rob and Dave, not DFL.

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My car was on a tow hook. It's finishing position, prior to the DQ's, was 7th. You need to read the CCR's (section 17.1) - top 4 are required to go to impound, unless the driver is unsure of his/her's finishing position (I was well aware of my finishing position). There is nothing in the 2010 National SUPPS about a towed vehicle required to go to impound, so the CCR's are our guide in this case.

Driver's meeting announcements by the Group Race Director supersede the CCR's, and the SUPPS. There was no mention in the driver's meeting of a vehicle being required to go to impound if it's on a tow hook. As such, I followed the CCR's. Was I required to go to impound? Not according to the CCR's.

Rob and Dave have DQ's, are not DFL as they do not get a finishing position. My finishing position, given I was a race starter, and they were DQ'd, was DFL. In this case, 5th. According to the CCR's, not required to go to impound.

But, we're getting off point again.

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Ya know, my car has had non-OEM window tint on it since the day it was built. Should I send back my National Champ awards?

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Window tint the same as lexan windows?? Again, obfuscating the real issue at hand. Let's stay on point.

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Your being a poor sport at this point.

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Wow - I'm being a poor sport. For being dissatisfied about a car with lexan windows being named the 2010 National Champion.

Glenn - are are defending an indefensible position, and using tactics that draw attention away from the real issue. I'm staying on point.

Clearly, without a doubt, I'm wrong.

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So is the weight diffence in dash parts and the lexan windows the issue? Al pointed out that the set-up in the car was heavier than the OEM glass.
So it seems Don was in more of a violation than the other guy.

As for the lack of a comment in your logbook...... well, a fix it ticket is a fix it ticket regardless if its written or verbal. Good God. I recall it being a safety related item, but I'll go w/ what you pointed out.
I do think you should have been told. I do not think its your right to be told. Its Al who will decide that. He did consult CMC2 on what was a performance advantage. That is my main point. But to stand there and make a big stink about a heavier than stock part that adds zero performance advantage in its current configuration is being petty. One that cant be resolved on the spot. If he was racing in Tx, and it was caught at the TWS July/Aug event then he shows up at Nats that way after being told to fix it, I bet he would have been DQ'ed. If Bryan White had noted in his logbook at thier last event that those must be replaced prior to the next event or prior to Nats, bingo, DQ. W/ all the info evaluated, Al made a judgement call. One you dont like. I dont pretend to agree w/ it, but it is his call.
Would glass side windows prevented your DNF? So if it affect you in no way, where is the rub?

Also, dont assume that this is the end of the issue w/ this car and the non-legal lexan. It will be addressed and it is another reason why many series directors harp on the "play by all the rules in your region" as often as they do. Each of you as a car owner should strive for a completely 100% legal car regardless of how insignificant you feel the rule is. There will always be someone who will take issue w/ you violating it at one point in time or another.
Case in point - this thread.

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Originally Posted by mitchntx

You know Dave ... you are a class act.

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I agree and it was fun getting to know you a little beating on the car at Hallett.

I don't think you intended to do anything wrong, just like I don't think Rob/Al intended the car to dyno over and my guess is the guy with the lexan wasn't trying to pull anything over on anyone.

But rules is supposed to be rules; and as much as it sucks, it probably really should be 3 DQs.

Why don’t we try to redirect the argument in a different direction.

The tube going across Kellam’s car from subframe connector to subframe connector didn’t make him faster and the 15 minute fix to make him legal certainly didn’t slow him down. The configuration that he showed up with was not legal and he was disqualified from a session (to basically no effect).

The strut tower attachment on Dave’s car was not the reason he was fast and a 5 minute fix to make the car legal would not have made him slower. The configuration that he showed up with was not legal and he was disqualified from a session. Unfortunately, that session was for all the marbles and he goes home with nothing.

The air dam being an eighth of an inch low was not the reason the 33x car was fast and correcting that issue would not have made him slower. The configuration that he showed up with was not legal and he was disqualified from a session. Unfortunately, that session was for all the marbles and he goes home with nothing.

The lexan windows (or the missing cowl plate) were not the reason that Erik was um… only two seconds a lap off of the leaders and correcting these issues would not have made him slower. The configuration he showed up in was not legal and he was told to… try harder for next time. He was given a pass because he wasn’t expected to do anything at nationals. Except that he did actually end up on the podium before the disqualifications.

The consistency is the problem here. I’m OK with the disqualifications and I would be happy if they were handed out across the board. It is interesting to note the order of the tech items had a huge effect on the outcome. If tech had checked for firewall issues first and subframe issues last, Dave would be celebrating and we would be discussing how Kellam got ripped off.

I’m completely OK with fix it tickets (especially for non-performance items) to help grow the fields… but only at the regional level… and only when they don’t affect the people who showed up with legal cars. Fix it tickets at nationals? Really??? Handed out inconsistently?????

I’m glad to see tech was done and done thoroughly. I think it’s important, not that it punishes the offenders, but that it validates the hard work, attention to detail, and skill of the winners. That’s not quite how it turned out…

Maybe we could work on doing real tech locally so competitors don’t have to go all the way to nationals to get disqualified for stuff they don’t know about.

Richard P.

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Originally Posted by michaelmosty

Hey D. Francis, I just got to give someone computer help. :D
You have taught me well master.

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You have done well, Grasshopper. I'm really looking forward to ECR so we can argue all this out over beer, beer and snacks.

I'm not smart enough to just sit back and watch... but I am making plans to go try this whole Nationals roller coaster in '11.

I know that #6 was 100% legal and has spent many many many hours making it so.

I wonder how they feel about finishing behind a car that is NOT 100% legal.

Yeah I know they are not the fastest dudes in the land however they are obviously better at reading a rule book and conforming to those rules than the fastest dudes in the land.

Or are they not the fastest dudes in the land because they are 100% legal.

" Each of you as a car owner should strive for a completely 100% legal car regardless of how insignificant you feel the rule is."


No matter how many people say that the lexan window infraction wasnt a performance advantage the car still wasnt legal.

Frankly the finishing order doesnt mean spit to me. I still dont get how two non legal cars can get DQed while other non legal cars can finish in front of 100% legal cars.

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Originally Posted by K Shaw

Yeah I know they are not the fastest dudes in the land however they are obviously better at reading a rule book and conforming to those rules than the fastest dudes in the land.

Or are they not the fastest dudes in the land because they are 100% legal.

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Oh man ... that's a good one.

I disagree on some of your points Richard. Strut bars, extended air deflectors, and sub frame connectors are all modifications made looking to improve performance. There is simply no way those quarter windows were installed with the thought of improving performance. On top of them being outright silly heavy the car is hugely overweight. So that coupled with the fact that it was caught so early was the reason for the fix it ticket. Yes we couldve weighed them and compared to glass and then glued a few quarters to the area but good god! There were more important things to worry about. That, incidentally, is the same repair we've offered for things like a gutted hood.

I will agree that the timing of the post race tech has a huge influence. Not sure how to resolve that other than icreased pre event tech. You're still going to need post race tech, and like Browns case still have folks trying to get so close to the edge they occasionally fall over it.

Adam, Glenn...I respectfully request you two settle this offline or just agree to disagree.

Adam, you are free to have your own opinion. I am confused as to why it would matter to have drivers weigh in on another car being allowed to race with non compliant parts since by your own statement no champ should have any non compliant parts period. I've never seen a situation where drivers were asked to vote "no" or "yes unless he wins", but whatever. At this point you can decide if you want to appeal my decision or not.

And by the way, at the drivers meetings I told everyone that after the big show all cars were being impounded and only I had authority to release them. All other 23 cars were there including one that pulled in early. Same message was delivered to Group A (AI) and two drivers in that race had the tow truck driver stop at tech. Patterson waited for quite a while there with a dead car as a matter of fact.

You are right about one thing though, I did make a major mistake. I didnt make it this weekend, but it took the events of this weekend to realize it.

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Originally Posted by Al Fernandez

Adam, Glenn...I respectfully request you two settle this offline or just agree to disagree.


You are right about one thing though, I did make a major mistake. I didnt make it this weekend, but it took the events of this weekend to realize it.

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What was your major mistake?

I agree on the Glenn/Adam arguments as well.

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Originally Posted by BryanL

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Originally Posted by Al Fernandez

Adam, Glenn...I respectfully request you two settle this offline or just agree to disagree.


You are right about one thing though, I did make a major mistake. I didnt make it this weekend, but it took the events of this weekend to realize it.

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What was your major mistake?

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He forgot to warn me that the cool suit switch doubled as a power flip switch. Just kidding.