Mitch,
Photoshop Corey's car at the Apex (where the dark pavement is) and you'll see where I was going. :roll:
Adam...you stay quiet. :D
-=- T
Printable View
Mitch,
Photoshop Corey's car at the Apex (where the dark pavement is) and you'll see where I was going. :roll:
Adam...you stay quiet. :D
-=- T
OK ... this was the "Corey Line"
http://www.argentlab.com/nasatx/mitch/CoreyLine1.jpg
What's your point?
Corey's car is facing the wrong way, although it's track placement is correct.
uuummmm, if you would come race w/us, you would know we ran TWS CW this past time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Ginsberg
Ummm...you didn't get the joke.Quote:
Originally Posted by GlennCMC70
You know ... I would have expected more from a series director.
go away spinny, this isnt AICMCIDAHO.com :P
Seriously.Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchntx
jb
well lower your expectations. :P
OK, I'll share ... a little ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd Covini
So why can't this "winning formula" of old work today? Consider this - the setup you mention above keeps the ride height high, with not inconsiderable body roll, lots of chasis flex, and poor camber control - which was countered with bags of static camber - this worked because with a high ride height, at least the roll center is above ground, and the body roll helped minimize the bind inherent with the 4 link - the car was reasonably easy to drive fast for a driver of average experience.
I drove Eric's old #17 on Saturday, and it pretty much fit this model - the car felt good and was easy to drive, but I doubt I could set as fast a lap time in it as I could in Adam's #5 for example? #17 would be perfect for a rookie to intemediate racer without changing a thing!
But I don't think this setup will cut it today if you want to win races - to beat those speedy highly developed GM boys, you need to lower your ride height as much as you can, stiffen the chassis as much as possible (in other words, ditch that bendy bolt in cage) stiffen the front springs way way up (and downsize that big ole front bar to compensate) - then tune the rear end to work with the front, which will still be relatively soft in the spring dept.
Yes the roll center will be below ground (and if the CMC directors wanted to change one simple rule to update the "parity" with the GMs, I suggest allowing X2 balljoints to help with this), but the stiff springs and chassis will help offset the negative effects of the low roll center plus help with camber control - but most importantly, the lower ride height now means we can go around corners faster. When tuning the suspension, focus on what the car is doing from mid corner to corner exit - what happens on the way in is somewhat less important (it's a Mustang after all, they all feel like crap on turn in!), but you need to be able to get on the gas early and not have an inherent corner exit push.
This setup may be comparitively more difficult to drive - for example, it won't be so forgiving if you miss a turn in point or turn in a little too hot - but it will reward a capable driver with constently faster times - and just as importantly, it should get out of corners closer to the torque arm equiped GMs, and because the stiffer springs enable you to reduce the static camber somewhat, you should be able to brake with them as well!
Daron is right about that camber, too much and you give up alot of braking. i'm slowly dialing out camber and dialing in caster, all the while increasing front grip in the corner and under braking. i'll also be announcing a custom bushing to aid in this.
so, lots of camber to make up for soft rates that gives body roll in turn gives camber loss. and lots of camber causes less stopping ability.
sounds like a dog chasing his tail to me. something needs to give. control body roll. how? buy upping spring rates and or sway bars. if there is not enough sway bar available from the factory offerings, make it up in spring rates.
interesting info Daron, thanks.
It's easy to explain how to get to mars. Getting there is another story.
Someone needs to step up and apply the theory.
Anyone? Hello??
This thing on? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
so what is it, ford = better or gm = better, i'm not following your mood swings.Quote:
Originally Posted by SmackDaddy
and as for T16, well part of getting into it, is being sure you can get out of it. sorry, you left that door open.
They make medication that can help you with those mood swings. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by GlennCMC70
GM's suck at braking, but that's about it. You guys get all out of control and not sure if it's the car or driver. lol
You collective - attached at the hip types need to get together and build a Mustang. Sounds like you guys have it all figured out on paper. Good luck to ya. <snickers>
yep, your the man. i'll send the media your way.
They've been all over trying to find that "Verner" guy. No luck thus far.
Yep.. I didn't need T-shirts to tell me that either. roflol <I kiiiiid!!>
Mars! Lets go to Mars!! Who's the captain? :lol: :lol:
Ok girls break it up....back on topic.
Daron...you're correct, that setup is definately "old school". I've played with the setup you've explained...lowered it...stiffened up...played with roll center...had a torque arm (they were legal for a season or two way back when)...spring rates....panhard bar....locker rear...worked camber from 2.5 degrees out to 4 degrees and back again....blah...blah...blah.
In the end, the fastest setup (FOR ME) was what I have.
It's the lowest maintenance...universal setup for every track I go to.
Sure...I know I'm leaving something on the table by not tuning to each track I go to. But (FOR ME), not having to work on the car and having consistent top 5s is more important than a few wins...and a few 10ths.
I commend all of the Texas CMC drivers for working so hard on their setups. This is what has made this group so fast and stand out to the rest of the country! Keep it up! But for me....I'll stick to the tried & true...tweak a bit as the car hopefully comes back together....and continue to give any top 3 cars a run for their money, whenever I come back!!!
-=- Todd
PS- Watch NASCAR at Sears Point (Infineon) some day. Those guys have figured out how to make pigs of cars roll & bite on a road course. It ain't pretty...but it sure is fast.
Just hold on a minute. If these cars have been developed to full potential, as I'm being told, then someone here has test data to support or refute Daron's suggestion.Quote:
Someone needs to step up and apply the theory.
Anyone? Hello??
This thing on? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Anyone? Hello???
This thing on?
Sorry but sarcasm and "I tried but it didn't work for me" just doesn't make cars faster. Give data, proof, or even simple logic to support your statements for dirt's sake. Those of us left behind don't really want to waste money testing when test data is out there. I respect your opinion but damn, give something that supports it. If rule changes are truely needed then fine but we can't storm the gate claiming, "Cause we say so."
Boudy
Boudy,
I think the "magic number" is actually a range. Everyone could easily conclude that a Mustang with super soft or ultra stiff hooptie suspension won't work well for W2W racing. That narrows down the tuning a bit. You can return the hydraulics I know you were keeping your eye on.
A given platform will work well with a range of "fine" settings once you get the "rough" setting correct.
The rough setting would be something like:
1. Get car down to 3150 (for a Mustang)
2. Try and push as much weight to the center of the car... and low (within ballast constraints, etc.)
3. Stiffen the car to the hilt (good subframe connectors, well built welded-in cage)
4. Buy a proven suspension setup for the rear (Griggs or MM)
5. Get the track width as wide as possible (SN95 front arms with 96+ spindles in the front and SN95 axles in the rear)
6. Get the front track as far forward as possible using offset delrin bushings.
7. Get a good set of struts/shocks (probably either Koni DA's or Bilstein Race Valve)
8. Bump steer the car
9. Corner weight with as much adjustment as you can (rubber or polyurethane spring insulators as "legal" spacers for both front and rear springs)
10. **my opinion** run a small front bar (4 cyl) and a stiffer spring up front.
11. Run a good set of rear lower control arms with a spherical bearing at one end (MM has a set). This will reduce some of the bind in the stock 4-link rear suspension.
12. Have the car aligned properly to maximize tire contact patch in the front during braking (as Glenn said, try and dial out as much negative camber as the car will let you. This will help braking but hurt corner speeds... fine line)
13. Run a "legal" front splitter or air dam (Ranger air dam works very well for a $25 piece of plastic)
14. Box the radiator so you can limit the air flowing around the radiator. This will maximize cooling and allow you to close down the open area in the front of the car, reducing drag (think NASCAR qualifying with all the tape over their radiators to decrease aero drag)
15. Within the rules, try and get the front fenders as far out as you can to divert the air around the front tire instead of having the air hit it head-on.
16. Choose a brake pad that suits your driving style (initial bite and release characteristics are key)
17. Adjust your brake proportioning valve to keep the car balanced when trail braking.
I didn't mention anything about actual spring rates. That's a black art that Glenn and Mitch have worked out nicely for their cars. Finding the right spring rate for a given platform (including driver) is just a go to the track and drive... change springs and drive again... repeat.... affair.
If I were to suggest a starting point for springs (outside the CMC box and coming from an AI guy) I'd say that the H&R "super race" front springs with a "sport" rear spring would be a good starting point given the amount of weight removed from a factory trunk area is larger than the amount from the engine bay (by percentage)... however, this is just my opinion.
Fine tuning would be :
1. Tire pressures
2. Sway bar end link preload
3. Rear end differential choice
4. Rear end gear ratio choice
5. Sneaky Pete NOS system
6. Driving style
I can't think of anything else on the car at this point unless you want to make the car super slippery with umpteen coats of Zaino... wait... that's Glenn's secret to sucess!!!
...
EV, get off your high horse...
You are a good driver, but your car was not developed fully. Get over it.
I use to have a lot of respect for you, but as of lately you are just nauseating.
It’s too bad you had too much pride to ask people for help or discuss your Mustangs inability to keep up.
The obvious answer is that you did not have the time, money, ambitions or ability to finish the job. I know it’s hard to admit with all the pride you have, but we all know it’s true.
It’s okay to admit it. It will only make you stronger and people will respect you more.
DD
He is the "king of bling". :DQuote:
Originally Posted by marshall_mosty
in order to help each other out w/ set-up info, you guys have got to stop refering to springs by things like "H&R super race" and "sport" and start refering to the specific rates. just bumping up or down from say a 200lb rear to a 225 lb rear is a big move. but 25 lbs could be the difference between driving style. you gotta find what works for you and what works for you will change as your driving gets better. i've made more single changes to my car this year than any other single season.
Don't forget seat time! Glenn and Jeff have tons, Proctor has a lot in a different type of car, Todd has a lot, I have a lot, Verner had a lot, etc. Don't forget that racing IS indeed different than open tracking. I didn't believe that was true until I made the switch, but being really comfortable in the car, knowing its characteristics/limits/dimension and being in control at all times is the first step and also key to driving any setup. Todd's car is a good example of a car that requires attention to rear end control (his gastrointenstinal control is another issue altogether). He has adapted his driving style and can overcome that characteristic through lots of time in that car. Chris Lyons drove my car once and his response was that he didn't know how I could drive the POS. My point is seat time is invaluable. I can't imagine what it would be like to jump into the piranha pit tha tis Texas CMC as a pure rookie.
that was before rehab, dont open old wounds please. :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by AllZWay
I'm beginning to think that folks like you and Adam attended HPDEs for a different reason than I did. The move to wheel to wheel was not that big of an issue for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Liebbe
I was all he time tweaking, messing, fiddling and searching trying to get another tenth. All of us weren't racing, but over dinner, there were some bragging rights being handed out.
Mitch is dead on.... Hell we were racing amongst ourselves and I think each of us were warned by Rick, NASA and the like that we needed to move to wheel to wheel or tone it down. :lol:
To me the jump from OT to w2w was really nothing at all..... it just allowed for more places to pass....which is one aspect I still have the most to learn and I keep getting my arse handed to me. :oops:
i had 5 years of seat time before i came to CMC. that was 3-4 weekends a year. i'm now doing 5-7 weekends a year for the last 2.5 years. that is alot of seat time. and it has made the biggest improvement in my driving in the last year or so.
so guys that are finishing mid pack and farther back, my guess is you didnt have alot of seat time before coming to CMC. thats fine, but that leaves a big disparity between ability that you guys will soon be closing the gap on. w/ our current crop of drivers, TX CMC will be just that - a piranha pit in the next year or two.
man, those poor new guys that are coming in soon. wow. :shock:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchntx
HPDE... what's that. I started in Racecraft! 8)
< in my best redneck voice > well dare's yur problum!Quote:
Originally Posted by marshall_mosty
sorry Marshall. :P
Quote:
Originally Posted by GlennCMC70
Ohh well... I guess I went straigt for the crack habit instead of wasting time on softer stuff. 8)
i see it as being a recreational user who stepped up to hard core user. :shock: