Take it easy on Al, I was holding him and JP up the whole race. They probably never got those 888s up to temp...Quote:
Originally Posted by David Love AI27
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Take it easy on Al, I was holding him and JP up the whole race. They probably never got those 888s up to temp...Quote:
Originally Posted by David Love AI27
the regional answer should be exactly the same as this answer...Quote:
Originally Posted by GlennCMC70
http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=25080
and JWL's recent post on the national AI forum asking which regions are going past 2 events and that it was a no no.
Personally, cool, I got RA1's to last till 2011. Gives me another chance at some more lap records this year. I am sure those that don't will not be happy about it.
JWL and Toyo are smokin' crack if they think racers can afford to toss perfectly good race tires.
And don't tell me to use them for TnT or DE weekends.
TnTing on them yields no data worth using and the only reason I do a DE weekend is for TnTing.
Arguements about it "being fair" are equal on both sides of the fence
Yeah, I'm too tired to look up the answer.
The reason I ask is because I as asked these questions in a general setting. Any help/guidance would be terrific.
1. Will be allowed to run RA-1's and still be able to obtain class points and Toyo bucks after this past weekend?
2. Will there be a stipulation enforced that we cannot purchase new RA-1's and run those (Toyo still makes 'em!!)
3. Will lap records count if it's not done on Triple 8's?
Thx!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchntx
I don't have any more RA1's but I hate the thought of spending more on tires than I do now. Two sets of RA1's per year was working fine for me. I sure don't want to have to go to three or four sets a year with a more expensive tire. And even though I love ya Mitch I don't want to race you on 888's with you on RA1's. I think we should protest and all run RA1's the rest of the season. So I guess I should purchase another set or two of RA1's and say I need to use up what I have? What do we (or even NASA) get out of Toyo for us running their POS 888? Is it worth it if all our tire bills double?
JJ
Why couldn't everyone manage their tires down to what was needed to finish out '08 like I did?
jb
After running both RA1s and 888s this past weekend, like many others, I think the 888s are inferior.
If the answer is final, fine. It will all be equal, as the class is designed to be. We will just have to learn to get the most out of a lesser tire. I'm sure a few racers hated the RA1s when they were first released.
I would much rather run the RA1s so much as I can still score regional points. The Toyo bucks probably won't mean a lot to me at this point.
the only way you will know what i'm thinking is to talk w/ me.Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremiahkellam
those are the rules, sorry.
Understand ... and you very well might not.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowBolt
Cause most of us have a tire budget, not a Toyo Buck budget.Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffburch
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchntx
Just sell me a set of your RA1's and we can race each other every week.
JJ
Alright guys, take it easy. Its far too soon after a race weekend to be having drama :wink:
All expectations half way through last year was that the 888 would be superior in lap times, so drivers would naturally want to switch. Toyo's own data bears that out. Unfortunately we've been seeing data saying the opposite. Now, maybe part of that is the cars in question are still primarily set up based on a long time of running RA1s (I'm talking roll rates, damping, etc, not tire pressure) so perhaps that difference in lap time will go away as people massage their setup. Regardless, the situation is people arent eager to change.
NASA's answer is the official answer from Toyo: no RA1s if you want points or Toyo Bucks after the 2nd weekend. I did talk to JWL this afternoon and asked him to discuss w/Toyo a short extension for Texas due to rain this past weekend. He said he'll discuss w/Toyo later this week. Now, my interpretation: dont bank on that. Toyo is a long time partner of NASA, and I'm sure both sides are keen to do what's best.
Given the immediate apparent disparity in lap times I dont think its realistic to think there is any alternative to enforcing 888s for points and bucks chasers unless JWL tells us otherwise. If the situation were reversed, with 888s clearly being immediately faster, I think the situation might be different.
Oh...about tire wear...those of you running 888s, how do they look? I have the first two weekends on my 275/17s. The first weekend I ran them far too low in air pressure, no telling what that did to wear. At this point I have one that looks pretty...tired, and three that look like they might make it through the next even.
If I make it through next event then I'll have gone from 1.5 sets per year to two sets per year. If not call it 2.5 sets per year. Given I didnt pay for shaving by running the 888s at full depth, that makes my annual tire budget grow by somewhere between $300 to $700 a year.
Others??
Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Fernandez
If your talking about me (drama) then you misread my post. I was just fooling with Mitch. I don't care what tire anyone runs as long as I get to go to the races and compete with everyone and enjoy the fellowship of a race weekend. I don't want to see any good tires (RA1's) thrown away.
JJ
That's a cheap shot buddy.Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchntx
I sold all my decent 1's in mid '08 (some of which you did the enduro on).
Used my T bucks to buy 8's for '09.
I had to buy many thin-to-win 1's to finish out the season.
One of them you put on my car (thx agn) at ECR.
I planned ahead just like some have with "the deuce" (but with a MUCH easier platform).
I'm cool tho, Al, chill.
jb
Al, regarding the 888 tire wear, Jeremy has 2 1/2 events worth of wear on his 888's (1 practice day and the 2 events this year).
The tread depth looks pretty good but the tires are worn a good amount on the outer edges. I think he is seeing the same issues many have noticed and were running the tires at too low a pressure.
I am totally speculating but I could see full treads lasting 4 events and 4/32nd shaves lasting maybe 3 events. Not near the life of an RA1 but alright, I guess.
As a comparison, my current set of RA1's I got at 3/32's and I have 3 1/2 events on them and they could probablly do 1 more.
To me, they wear as good if not better than the 1's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Fernandez
But mine are shaved.
Other than that, my lips are sealed. Get your own.
See you procrastinators at the next event :wink:
jb
What's the "Underhanded Deal Hotline" # again? :lol: :twisted:Quote:
Originally Posted by GlennCMC70
I thought we shut down that phone line.
Well it pisses me off that the rules seem to change at the drop of a hat and they change to where ever the wind blows.Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffburch
It wasn't intended to be a cheap shot, but this God-like Toyo "contingency" is good for 15% of the racers. The rest are forced to buy an over-priced, under-achieving POS tire.
This time last year, 09 ... ALL OF 09 ... was supposed to be a transition year. So I made a prudent, fiscal decision to run 09 ... ALL OF 09 ... on scuffed and used RA1s.
3 reasons ...
A cheap tire to race on ...
A cheap transition to 17s ...
And let someone else do the R&D on pressures.
The propoganda then was the 888s would be a superior tire, but it didn't matter. We're just racing for a piece of pewter, right? Right?
Then the rule changed ... and changed again and now it's changed again, again.
JB, you just got caught in the cross-fire ... nothing personal.
Expect a bonfire of perfctly good RA1s in the paddock at TWS ...
If Tony can do it ... just leading by example. Good corporate puppet ... sit, boy!Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd Covini
MW,
I'm (we're) good.
Hehe, I was hoping they were a better tire.
Oh, well, I do think they will wear better, but their price prolly negates that.
jb
Not sure if these questions have been answered.
1. Will be allowed to run RA-1's and still be able to obtain class points and Toyo bucks after this past weekend?
2. Will there be a stipulation enforced that we cannot purchase new RA-1's and run those (Toyo still makes 'em!!)
3. Will lap records count if it's not done on Triple 8's?
4. Will a racer be qualified for the national event even though they didn't complete 5 races on Triple 8's?
This needs to be posted in the forum and not have to call a hot-line. That leaves way too much to the imagination of what goes on. IMHO of course. Again, these were questions brought up while standing around having a good time BS'ing with the guys. No drama, just some questions regarding regional/national stuff.
IMHO (2nd) - when a new tire is introduced, it should be at least as good as the one being retired. A racer shouldn't have to spend more money buying new parts (softer setup) in order to compete on a tire that should have been tested in each region for all classes prior to acceptance.
Spec Miata - SCCA winning teams go through 2 sets of 888's in a weekend to have a chance of a podium finish. This is double or triple from the RA-1's.
Listen - not wanting to stir the pot, but having run on the 8's for two weekends (tried different pressures) and seeing how they drop off after a few laps compared to the 1's, if there's a chance to run the 1's, I'm all for running them instead of the 8's for sure.
Not pointing fingers or blaming anyone. These issues need to be brought up and I'm sure our wonderful and talented directors will have it all under control in short order.
Eric, the rule as published by NASA is and has been since some time last year: no RA1s past the 2nd event unless you are fun running. As mentioned, I have asked for an extension due to our rain, and we'll see where that goes.
The NASA Championship participation requirements stipulate a driver must earn points in five official races in order to be elligible. Fun runners dont earn points, nor do they set lap records.
As a protest, I am peeling off my current Toyo tire stickers and replacing them upside down.
And as I stated before, I'm just not funded to buy a set of R888s at this point in time. When the rule said all of 09 as a transition year, I spent my tire budget on scuffed RA1s hoping to gather Toyo buck crumbs to fund a set of tires by year's end.
I am NOT and CANNOT go into debt to go racing. That is just stoopid in today's economy.
your 5 races do not have to all be in CMC though. you could run PT, AIX or STU, or whatever.
Maybe they should say "Noyo Tires".Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchntx
Is anyone talking to Toyo? Coming from the tire industry, and spending a LOT of time driving and evaluating tires, there can be changes made (some simple, some difficult) to a tire to alter its performance. I would love to hear what Toyo is saying about this. Anybody got a good contact number at Toyo?
One thing I think many have glossed over is the differnt characteristics the R888 has when compared to the RA1s.
Yes ... if you just do a tire swap, using RA1 tried and true suspension setup, you will be a second slower.
That does not mean that the 888 is an inferior tire. It means that you will have to adjust your suspension and maybe your driving style to achieve RA1-like results.
Go back and read Darron's post carefully. There is good, insightful information in that post.
I appreciate all the thoughts, guidance and insights in this thread.
Series Directors here (and other series) are aware in this region (and other regions) and I'm sure there are discussions between Toyo & the national office.
The Toyo tire issue is on my list of things to discuss with Jerry K. and John L. this week.
Eric, please understand what we say here is seen by drivers / officials from other regoins and up to a National level. no matter what we do, the official way is all we can post here.Quote:
Originally Posted by evarner
please contact your series direcotrs on this issue.
AL, we need to spend some time on the phone this week.
I am out of RA1's, so basically I am for the latest rule of weekend 2, however I understand the wanting of running RA1's for those that have them....but it sucks that they are faster than the 888's.
I ran the 888's all weekend, except for qual on day 2.
I like them on the wet track on Saturday R1....they were decent in R2.
I hated them R3 very badly....but modified pressures for R4 and they were pretty darn good the whole race.
I am not sure of lap times for the day, but seat of pants says they are considerably slower than RA1's.
As for wear... MSRC isn't too hard on tires, but they look perfect after all weekend.
From:http://www.aicmctexas.com/forums/vie...328&highlight=Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Liebbe
Quote:
Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:33 am Post subject:
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Just got off the phone with Candice at Toyo (Cali office) and she confirmed the following:
1. Max Tire Temp: 250F
2. No published "ideal" hot temp.
3. Tire Pressure: High 30's to Low 40's
4. Tire does NOT need to be heat cycled prior to use
5. Compound is the same down to the cords. This is different to the RA1 which had a softer outer rubber and hard carcass. According to Toyo, they should be consistant down to the cords.
If anyone wants to talk to Toyo about the R888, call (800) 678-3250 10a-7p CST and dial exention 490 (Customer Relations). There are two tire engineers there that are familiar with the R888 tires. However I did not speak to them directly.
I ran a set of R888's during a test session back in January and liked them. However, going from 4-year old 1's might have been the reason, but I just started my pressures about 6 lbs higher to come off track at 36-38 all the way around instead of 31-32 for the 1's.