man, i'm gonna have to get a dedicated stick for this.
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man, i'm gonna have to get a dedicated stick for this.
Stick-slip?
"Stick slip refers to the fast movement that occurs between two sides of a fault when the two sides of the fault become unstuck. The rock becomes distorted, or bent, but holds its position until the earthquake occurs. When the rock snaps back into an unstrained position it is called elastic rebound. Stick-slip displacement on a fault radiates energy in the form of seismic waves, creating an earthquake."
or a forked stick since you're stuck in the desert, you dowser.
"One of the longest-running disagreements centers on dowsing, a supposed sixth sense that enables people to find underground water using a forked stick. There is no scientific reason why dowsing should work. Yet, it apparently works well enough and reliably enough to keep the practice alive."
Very true David, we step up tech at nationals on purpose. There is (for a lot of classes) real money on the line, and there is certainly a lot of bragging rights on the line. We therefore bring more resources and devote more time to tech...and I think its justified. We still wont tear your motor down to the crank though.
Since I'm on a bit of a roll, let me talk about flag infractions. In general we rely on the corner workers to call these in. The race director might see something from control, but in general what the corner worker says is it. Penalties for flag infractions are determined by the race director. For us here in Texas that is Clifton or his designee if he's unavailable. At nationals this year that was Todd for AI and Adam for CMC. In other words, Todd, myself, and Glenn are almost never involved in determining if a car blew a flag or if they did what the penalty is during races here in Texas. I myself was called in for a flag infraction and I walked up to Clifton to talk about it and ensure he would not go easy. He agreed and threw me a pretty steep penalty because, of all people, I should know better. Perfect.
While I'm here I'll give you another "whishy washy" rules situation. A while back CMC changed the interpretation of the air dam rule to include the radiator air deflector. The result was the air deflector had to be higher than previously. Next time out Glenn and I gathered a whole pile of cars into tech to check. Those that were close were measured multiple times. The winner of the race was something silly like 1/8" too low on one side. We let him sit there and worry about it for a while, then we handed him a fix it ticket. We could've DQd him and taken his win, which was his first by the way, and taken him out of the season championship (DQs are not dropable). We decided that would be far too punishing for something he honestly did not intend to do. It was an honest oversight IMHO. Did that make the 2nd place driver mad because it meant he didnt get the win? Well, hopefully not, and he didnt tell me if it did (he should have if it did!). I'd like to think everyone walked away realizing that the infraction wasnt the reason why that driver crossed the finish line first, and that given the recent rule change this was a good way to drive home a message without disenfranchising a driver. Was I wrong? Should I have DQd him? If you think so maybe my style of enforcement isnt for you.
Weight on the other hand is something you wont get a mulligan from me on. Why? Because the scales are there all day and because the rules are very clear and explicit regarding weights and dynos and because A LOT of drivers play the game of trying to come just to the edge of minimum each and every race. You want to play? Great! The price is a DQ if you're off target. Everyone knows this and makes their choice. Does coming in 2lbs under mean you won where otherwise you wouldnt have? Of course not, but you know what weight you need to be, you have the scales at your disposal to check, and you have the means to add and subtract weight. If the scales are not available of course we'll temper that down. Personally I dont want guys in the pits weighing fuel and siphoning fuel out and bla bla bla to get that last five pounds, so we use the scales quite a bit.
I could go on and on...but the point is we do not and will not go to a black and white rules enforcement and dramatic tech sessions. That is not, IMHO, in the best interest of the series. The promis you no one at the front will be allowed to run with something that gives them a performance advantage without the previous approval of all of the drivers, but there will be fix it tickets, there will be guys allowed to run with out of spec parts while they get their act and their lap times together, and there will be an emphasis on fun and friendship above absolute correctness. This is not F1 and we are racing for the hell of it. If what you are looking for is the closest thing to the pros including all of the hoops and hurdles and cost of rules enforcement and compliance then you probably need to keep looking.
You give a little, you take a little and what comes around goes around. I will do my best to publisize all of the decisions we make along the way along with who was involved. Hopefully that transparency will help and if nothing else give you guys more ammo with which to rib the other guys :D
Looking at the fish bowl from the outside, this is club racing. I like the rules enforced pretty tightly too, but I don't rely on tech to do it regionally. That's why you make friends with your competitiors. Check out each other's cars and clear up any grey areas before it gets to the point of someone being pissed and wanting to throw paper.
Let's face it, we're not exactly in this for the prize money.
Glenn, this is the long version of Todd's statement at Rookie Day. This being said, for perspective racers getting into the series...I suggest you post this in the RULES verbatim, right under the 2010 change of the word "rules" to "Guidelines". Prevents a shit-ton of misunderstandings later and establishes that you better be prepared to be disappointed by the director's choices to enforce each rule differently for different people on different days.Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Fernandez
Personally, I'm still pissed about the "allowances" or "fix it tickets" and the reasoning Todd gave me a few weeks ago. Not dinging Lindsay's car for the notched frame rails on day 1 at a national event and nullifying the race results from an illegal car that was OBVIOUSLY at an advantage was the wrong call even if the arguement was that Pat bought it from flaherty that way or it had been run regionally in Kali that way too. Of all people who KNOW the rules, S&S/Pat should have known better. I would have been fine with nullifying the results from Thursday's race in a DQ, (yes, a win for me) then allowing him to weld in material and race the rest of the weekend is a no brainer. Not nipping it in the bud Day one allowed all the rest of the crap to get out of hand, including the start of Sunday's race as he would NOT have been on the front row. I'd probably pull the track record from him too....but hey, that's just me. The second "no call" that rubs me raw is Corey's pass under double yellow taking back the pass under yellow the viper then gave back. Yep, confusing but on video, called in by corner workers and very bad under the rules. We all learned that lesson in 2008 that there is ZERO passes under yellow...PERIOD. Consistancy? Where was it? So, yeah, I feel robbed by Todd/AL's regional managment used at a national event...I realize that is going to happen in racing, but it most certainly doesn't mean I have to like it.
TJ, you are correct. Knowing your fellow racers and working together to enforce rules is key. However, relying on racers to police the rules also results in possible shady deals between racers and fosters LARGE areas of gray that causes frustration. It also throws wrenches in place when racers have to destroy their good relationships with their fellow racers and put down protests because the race director won't enforce a rule. I'm sure if any of us had to start calling our fellow racers out on the table for tech because of suspicions, the "just for fun" factor would be out the window in a heartbeat. To answer Glenn's question about why I didn't file the protest on the sunday race for Corey taking his position back under double yellow, it was that Todd/AL already told me they made up their minds and I'd waste $100, and to push the situation would have soured my relationship with corey. I valued that relationship with my fellow racer more than protesting my way to 2nd place instead of 3rd. It's not my responsibility to make that call. It's the director's responsibility to enforce that rule. I discussed that with Todd and he wouldn't admit error. Fine. Again, I don't have to like it or support it either.
As for letting "slower" guys run illegal cars....well, how does that make sense when we have inverted races twice a weekend? While it doesn't usually effect Toyo races, it does still affect season points battles. If they are always a backmarker and back there just having fun, why do they NEED illegal parts to continue to do so? I'd think helping them work harder with a legal car would better there skills and prop their ego rather than "they are letting me cheat so I don't look so slow".... :?: Hell, I'll donate my time to help them get there...legally and with better skills.
Al, your point of "just for fun" "racing".... I get it. However, I think the philosophy does more harm trying to fix issues to fix other issues in an attempt to manage chaos and overall, it pisses people off and the current situation instills fear for people to speak their minds....because when they do, they suffer my fate and get labeled as an asshole or dismissed by a director who is unwilling to admit fault. I think you aren't giving the racers in this region enough credit to be able to have fun off the track and still have a serious, viable "as close to pro-racing as possible" event. It is NASA PRO RACING.com right?
I'd put $1000 on the table that the racers in this group would have just as much fun, IF NOT MORE, if we had strict enforcement. It's the racers, their families and their friendships that make this stuff fun. Not the "help" we get by being lax on the rules. The frustration, the "bad internet" assumptions and opinions would simply go away with strict enforcement. The racers who fear we don't enforce contact strictly enough would start coming back/to the series when they aren't afraid well known offenders would be dealt with accordingly. Trust me, the saturday night BBQ at ECR and Hallett wouldn't change ONE bit. Those that choose not to socialize with us can still choose to not participate, and those of us that like each other don't have to fear avoiding another racer who got DQ'd because we filed a protest.
Here is a GREAT scenario to validate my point. 2006, last event of the year. Marvel and I were fighting for the regional championship down to the last race. during qual, I passed chris under waving yellow in the rain. I admitted it...however, nothing was going to be done about it, my Pole position would have stood, and it would have come down to the results of the last two races to determine the champ. This forced Chris to file a protest, which REALLY pissed me off, but I suppose I would have done the same thing with what was on the line. It created a LOT of animosity toward Chris for a long time but I eventually got over it....but Wow, Regional champ in my rookie year was taken away by a protest that should have been enforced by a director...yes it was Clifton, not Todd but the point was it wasn't strictly enforced.
Fast forward to James' mistake that would result in a non-droppable DQ. It would have cost him the regional championship. So, now we are up to "just for fun" racing again and the decision is overturned, albeit with a lot of input. I guarantee you SOMEONE felt pressured to keep their mouth shut and not protest...technically, they couldn't anyway as too much time had lapsed. In both scenarios, there is a considerable difference in Toyo bucks at the end of the season. so while the "fun" decision to make folks feel good at that moment felt good, it CERTAINLY did make a BIG change at the end of the season.
At the end of the day, you guys are in charge, think you are right and the perception is that you don't care for our input or reasoning regardless. I'm happy that you finally put in print above in bold what has NEVER been said....sadly, it's too late for me and I'm just too soured by it after having dealt with it for 4 years. Had that philosophy been voiced loud and clear from the beginning, I and others probably would have been much happier.....probably most not having to hear/see us bitch about it.
All I can ask at this point is that you reconsider....because I can't afford "big boy" Koni Challenge racing...but that doesn't stop you from being the cheap, damn close alternative.
Maybe I'm just trying to use too much reason?
I hope to God that the directors read this paragraph and in particular the part highlighted.Quote:
Originally Posted by AI#97
I see "for the good of the series" preached here and at the track over and over.
And I have been told "submit the protest paperwork" on a couple of occasions. Typically followed by a smirk and an about-face. Its a simple and convenient cop-out to not to have to do anything.
Consider for a moment that when a racer comes to an official with information of interest, maybe its us thinking "for the good of the series" as well.
Matt's point is valid. I recall vividly how I felt at NPR when I was forced to remove my restrictor plate, have it measured, found legal and then sealed to the motor. I also recall vividly how it changed my view on this group of racers.
I knew in my heart of hearts I had done everything I could to field a legal car. How naive of me to think that my peer racers respected and trusted me enough to simply believe me.
unlike Glenn... I was trying pet the kitty NOT poke it with a stick...Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Fernandez
My point was: things are different at nationals... I was not SLAMMING NASATX (at least not in this case), just pointing out that there are differences. My wish is that ALL the drivers in AICMCTexas go to Nationals and show the rest of the country that the racers in Texas are "badass"
I wish my comments weren't ALWAYS percieved as negative...
(Glenn, I hope you know my PWS remarks are in fun... its just that getting between you and Matt is like walking into an ammo bunker full of TNT while holding a flaming torch)
I felt the same way when I was asked to provide a copy of my Dyno sheet 1/2 way through the season... I'm only REQUIRED to have one, not give a copy... BUT my biggest complaint was been QUESTIONED IN THE FIRST PLACE!!! screw "WTF", WHAT THE F@CK?!?!?Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchntx
I can't count the times I have heard "we try to make it fun on the regional level" WHAT IS FUN ABOUT BEING QUESTIONED 3 or 4 TIMES DURING AN EVENT FOR A DYNO SHEET WHEN YOU HAVE THE SLOWEST F@CKING CAR IN THE FIELD!!!!
Maybe one of you directors can put a "touchy feely spin on that one"..
It was harassment, not fun, and it really pissed me off... and ruined my entire weekend...
I'm sure the spinmasters will find a reason it was GOOD FOR THE SERIES
This should not be different than info you should have known since day one w/ AI/CMC in Texas w/ Todd in charge. this is not new news. i've known this all along.Quote:
Originally Posted by AI#97
Lets not read to much into this statement, but just in case you have, i'll add to it. if we have a great candidate for AI/CMC in DE's or TT, we will allow that person to run w/ us even if the car isnt 100% legal (what if its only 50% legal? likely not). that doesnt mean we will let them run that way untill his first win (like the Mid Atlantic guys do btw), but rather he's given a pretty short timeframe to comply, but as long as he's a back marker, it shouldnt be a major deal. dont think for a minute that a backmarker that has a 100% legal car, that we will allow then to install a non-legal part and run w/ us. that will get a big "hell no".Quote:
Originally Posted by AI#97
sounds like to me the right call was made. a racer figured out a mistake and corrected it. you had an advantage taken away and feel cheated. if the senario was to where you ended up w/ an advantage, i bet you would never said a word. pretty petty to be so pissed over guys doing the right thing and correcting a mistake w/ no outside influance to do so.Quote:
Originally Posted by AI#97
and is that what you call a friendship? someone who is wiling to cheat to beat you? you dont file a protest to protect that type of friendship? i'll file a protest against a friend anyday of the week (and yes i have - Nick Runyon). I wouldnt get mad if you filed one on me, although you just talking to me would likely save you the hassle. racing on track is just racing. part of that racing is also protests filed in the pits. i can separate that stuff from my off track friendships i have. same as if paperwork was filed against me. yes, the directors role is to catch those issues before the racers do, but it just doesnt happen that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by AI#97
If we had to, then likely so. but the great thing about this level of racing is we all try our best to bring a legal car to the track. i have faith in my fellow racers that they will bring a legal car to the track just as they have the same faith in me. i could be willing to cheat to pay my bills and feed my family, but never to i could brag to my friends about how bad i beat those guys last weekend. in the end, thats all we really walk away from at this level - bragging rights.Quote:
Originally Posted by AI#97
Sounds like Todd did you a favor he didnt have to do. he knew Cory did the right thing. in other forms of racing, they would have told you to fill it out and put up the money just to fund the beer kitty.Quote:
Originally Posted by AI#97
there have been several issues that i just didnt agree w/ in any way and no amount of talking was/is going to change my mind. but at the end of the day i dont take it personal and i'm still friends w/ those guys no different than i was before. its that "seeing other's point of view" that you accused me of in a different post. you dont have to agree w/ it, but it helps if you can understand/see it. once agian Matt, your not the only racer in this world who feels he got the short end of the stick. Todd has likely been on the recieving end of that more times that he cares to admitt.
and that is where i 100% totally disagree w/ you. take a look at all the points sheets from 2005 to 2009 and show me where one driver finished lower in season points than where thier talent indicates they should have finished due to inverted races? you aint gonna find it. Inverts are the best thing for Grassroots racing. it keeps points battle interesting to the end and allows novice drivers a chance to get up to speed quicker than otherwise would be possible. inverts are a win/win deal.Quote:
Originally Posted by AI#97
Do you think anyone here w/ us is OK w/ running non-legal parts? who does this now? you are not the only racer that would donate their time to do this. i see it all the time. in fact, this shows your not a 100% lost cause. there is hope for you yet. :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by AI#97
we also dont give timelines based on talent level. if the racer says "i'll never be able to comply w/ the rules" for whatever reason, we will likely tell them, OK, sorry, but you will have to run somewhere else.
i seriously do not think there is anyone here afraid to speak their mind. Texas AI/CMC just isnt known for that. i am willing to listen, but i think you are not. you keep talking about "we this" and "us that". who is the "we" and "us"? i hear alot of folks telling me and Al different that what you are saying. it would be one thing if i didnt hear anything, but i hear the opposite.Quote:
Originally Posted by AI#97
if you feel like Matt, let me know. i'll not hold it against you.
Instead of being mad at Chris, you should have been mad at yourself. You made the first mistake - the pass. Clifton cannot enforce what he doesnt see or have called into him. You could have given up the pole yourself. You shouldnt have been upset over Chris doing what he's allowed to do "BY THE LETTER OF THE RULE BOOK", a thing in which you want. a thing that will not (from your POV) not change anything w/ our group, but yet it did w/ you. Sounds like you want other to be the bad guy on your behalf because you dont have the sack to do it yourself. but in reality, there should be a bad guy at all. racing is racing, and friendship is friendship. my friendship is never dictated by what happens while racing.Quote:
Originally Posted by AI#97
i feel pretty sure when i say the everyone affected by the issue w/ James was 100% OK w/ it. it was also more than just an issue of "he didnt mean to do it". it was a poorly written rule that allowed for interpretation. it was promptly re-written to be more clear w/ its intent (verified by NASA HQ). the intent was to never prevent the DQ from being droppable in that case.Quote:
Originally Posted by AI#97
possibly you assume you speak on the behalf of everyone. as best i can tell, we loose very few racrs due to the reasons you say. in fact, each year we gain more than we have ever lost in total due to your reasons. so w/ that track record in place, we will likely keep doing things the way we think works best. its working in every NASA Region as best i can tell.Quote:
Originally Posted by AI#97
sorry Mitch, you were saying
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchntx
what is more disturbing glenn is 6 hours ago, you agree we are "out of the transition period", 3 hours ago AL Totally destroys that theory proving you both aren't on the same page, then you come back and start agreeing with AL. Which is it? Today? This hour? These are all things strict enforcement fixes. Why do you contradict AL/Todd, then turn around and defend them..I'm confused.
As for not having enough staff to do proper tech...? Poppycock! There are nearly 40 guys here willing to throw a helping hand. Make a list and we will check it. Hell, I think performed more tech this year than any AI/CMC director at events I wasn't even driving at. There are resources available...all you have to do is plan and ask. BTW, it's the director's responsibility to be the "enforcers" and bad guys at the track. It's what yo volunteer to do and are COMPENSATED for. Otherwise, you are holding a driver meeting after qual and setting grid. If it comes to that compared to someone instructing, maybe you should only get a $50 discount....? Just sayin'.
To further my point about racers being forced to be bad guys and police stuff....take a trip back to Wayne/Corey/Hallett...there is a prime example of inaction that resulted in a racer being left with no choice but to do what first came to mind. Wrong yes....but a situation created by inaction.
If this were a battle of the "rights"....all I ever hear for the current management theory is 1. It's good for the series. 2. It increases car count. While on my side of the table, I can and have listed several items that fix issues of safety, costs to racers, constistency of rules enforcement between regions and especially national events.....and the list goes on...and someone already wrote the book to show us how to do it.
I guess I am just too thick headed and logical for this stuff? :?
tell me when you have come to me, Al, or Todd and had 100% proof that a car was cheating and had that happen? i have to ask you to provide me an example of this happening please.Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchntx
i will always assume that is the case. all racers have the responsibility to do this. BUT, and i said BUT, we as directors can NOT go off half cocked and use "Well Glenn doesnt like the looks of your rear wing Eric!" as a reason to check something.Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchntx
Conversly, dont think a series official is not thinking of the "for the good of the series" when the do or do not act on such things.
Trust me i know, i got the same treatment right along w/ you. Honestly, i think you got caught up in the net tossed out for me, but yes, you got the same treatment. The accuser had no evidence that out plates were not of the legal size, but we got checked anyways. So all "Half Cocked Covini" did in that case was what you dont want to see happen now to you. Covini looked like the bad guy. but if the $50 protest was put up, he can stand on the leg of "i have no option here, i am required by the rules to do this." Thats why we ask for the protest at times as its really the proceedure we are suposed to follow.Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchntx
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchntx
The mistake wasn't corrected. The "plan" according to Todd was to put the top 5 cars in the air and DQ him (I think, Todd wasn't clear on that part, might have been a "fix it ticket") at the end of the champ race....he's admitted this to me. Bad "plan" as it had already fubar'd the results of the entire week.Quote:
Originally Posted by GlennCMC70
If I were you Glenn, I wouldn't be so quick to defend your superiors....
edit: and since when is me showing up with a 100% legal car at a national event an advantage?! LOL!!!! Only "advantage" I probably got was Todd and AL appearing to be VERY favorable to "their TX guy"....something I NEVER expected or asked for. Probably the reason they feel so hurt for me challenging them on all this....?
Again, a nice cop-out.Quote:
Originally Posted by GlennCMC70
How can I possibly have 100% proof of ANYTHING illegal unless I built it. Its a no win situation.
Somehow I posted about what happened to me and it turns out to be about you.Quote:
Originally Posted by GlennCMC70
But ...
In this scenario, Covini would be the messenger. Any one with any self respect wouldn't shoot the messenger. And if you will read what I wrote, I specifically detail how I felt about my fellow racers after that incident and not the rules or rules enforcement.
So we are looking at ...
Paper work and a check ...
Spread rumors and innuendo ...
Say nothing and complain ...
So who wins?
But, if I come to you and say "I think Eric's wing is too high." and you casually investigate to either prove or disprove it, no one gets hurt.
we are out of the transition period. who here now runs an illegal car? i cant think of any. does that mean that at Round 1 of 2010 we dont get a CMC fox w/ a non-legal intake w/ a driver running 2:00 laps, and we tell him to piss off till your legal? hell no. we work w/ him, set a timeline and assist where we can. if he runs track record in qual? quess what, you can run w/ us, but as a fun run - no points.Quote:
Originally Posted by AI#97
pretty simple stuff Matt. we can what if all day long. what if Butterflies had machine guns? Grasshoppers wouldnt fuck w/ them. pretty clear.
and i say bullshit. standing at the scales pushing cars on/off isnt tech.Quote:
Originally Posted by AI#97
and for the 40 guys, who do i pick to park thier car for the weekend? who do i ask to work for us w/ no comp? there has never been 40 guys at a single event (i think we hit 25 once). i've never seen you at tech w/ your suit on sweating your ass off doing tech. i know i have. pulled off the track early before on more than one occation to do it. i would think of asking another to do it.
i also think most of our guys (all except you) dont think its worth the effort.
and i wish you luck w/ the quality folks you get to step up and work that hard and take shit from folks like you for $50 when you start your own version of what you think NASA should be.Quote:
Originally Posted by AI#97
and if your not keeping track, Todd has done it for free for a very long time. I have also done it for free, and i'll be doing it again at Round 1 of 2010.
its funny... that was Waynes first race w/ us and look what happened. Corey's history w/ NASA is of no issue w/ Wayne. he knew it coming in. pretty much tells me he accepted it when he paid his entry fee. He did the crime, couldnt do the time, and hasnt come back. Corey got the longest probation ever handed out to an AI/CMC Texas racer from that too. the next move was to pull his comp license for 1 year.Quote:
Originally Posted by AI#97
like it or not, car count is king. we could run this thing 100% by the book of Matt White, and its possible you could be the only racer to show up. what fun is that? w/out high car count, the racing sucks, and the series falls on its face. but the opposite keeps happening. we are likely now the largest AI/CMC field in the country. we gotta go w/ what works.Quote:
Originally Posted by AI#97
you logic is not the only answer. once again, there is more to it than your point of view.Quote:
Originally Posted by AI#97
HOLD ON....WAIT A DAMN MINUTE!!! Are mitch and I sort of agreeing on something??????? Hell is cold and pigs are falling from the sky!!! :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchntx
the advantage was w/ regards to the yellow pass. sorry if that wasnt clear.Quote:
Originally Posted by AI#97
i'll not address the "knotched frame rail" issue. i have zero first hand knowlege of that.
sorry Mitch, you were saying
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchntx
Hell no ... I don;t want to have to sell all my shit ...Quote:
Originally Posted by AI#97
you logic is not the only answer. once again, there is more to it than your point of view.[/quote]Quote:
Originally Posted by GlennCMC70
The "book" was written by NASA, don't see my name anywhere in it, thankfully....I'm just suggesting you read it and preach it and not rewrite it yourself!
I am STILL of the opinion that Strict enforcement won't change the fun factor or car count one bit. I do know the changes I propose will increase it by at least one! ;)
Have a nice day Glenn and watch for earthquakes!
sure you can 100% proof.Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchntx
if a rule requires a white wheel and they got black, i'll trust you when you say "hey, he's got white wheels!". or i measured his wing w/ a tape, and its 10"s too tall. i'll act on that. but when you tell me his straightaway speed looks to be .25 mph to high, i'll smirk and say, pony up the form and money. you have to understand that.
as for our issue involving us and our restricotr plates, it was mearly an attempt to display that as i director, i too have been on the recieving end of things that even you dislike. there was no proof for Todd to do it. your opinon of the group changed as a result of his actions. you want me to do the same based on your "i think he's cheating" - act w/ not proof and have another race feel towards the group the very way you did that day.
Matt - answer the f'ing phone. this is just stupid.
You'll change your mind tomorrow. :PQuote:
Originally Posted by mitchntx
I'm still trying to figure out how to fix MY forsale ad so it doesn't look like Bill Griffen is selling MY car....Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelmosty
Glenn, can you just delete all two or three threads you hosed up so I can post the correct one?
phone hasn't rang all day....don't know what you are talking about bro... Maybe it doesn't want to talk to you either.
Great Matt, like I said, point taken and thanks for your advice. BUT, for you and everyone else, that is not NASA's model. That isnt Glenn re-writting the rules, nor me. That is just not how NASA (at the HQ level, not Shannon) wants to run their show. Rules enforcement yes, but tempered by the situation at hand. NASA is not the SCCA, but running it with two hours of tech after every race is exactly what that would mean. We're just not going to go there. Full stop. Period. End of story. Aint going to happen. We will continue to make reasonable efforts to ensure rules compliance, we will make allowances to help the new guys get into the program, and we will not dedicate half of your race weekend to going through tech inspections.
By the way Matt, I dont feel "hurt" by you, or anyone else challenging anything I say, especially because I have never shown you (or anyone else that I know of) any favoritism. Why havent you mailed back your Nationals trophy and any other contingency awards? After all, you were not black flagged even though your car did not have a functioning tail light. Sounds to me like wishy washy rules enforcement of exactly the kind you should be ashamed to take advantage of. It wasnt done because we like you. You werent called in because it would really really suck to invest all that time and effort to have the racer's results ruined by such a stupid thing. Its not endangering anyone, nobody was right on your ass...let him keep going.
Mitch...I'm confused...you're with Matt on this enforcement thing, but the one time enforcement was pressed upon you it upset you? I dont understand the full story here. Also, you commented how much you like running in the SE...how long did your car spend in post race tech there?
You wouldn't think so, but it just makes it a little more of a pain. Example, August at Mid-Ohio. They pull the top two to dyno. Alright! Sweet, free dyno time!... well, it's free but you need to stand out there in sun with high humidity and temps just short of 90* while they drive it up, strap it down, make the three pulls. Oh wait, that was for the guy who won, now do it all over again for the next car. That's after a 40 minute race where you sweat completely through your firesuit and all you want is to go put on a pair of dry underwear, sit in the shade, and drink a couple bottles of water.Quote:
Originally Posted by AI#97
All that to find out the car was 18RWHP under the limit because it's so hot out.
http://www.ploader.net/files/fae79a7...f98af58341.jpg
PS- Not my golf cart. :lol:
Glenn and I just spent a LONG time on the phone about this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Fernandez
Let me try and explain better ...
At NPR my restrictor plate was removed, checked and then sealed to the motor based upon an accusation. Was there paper work or a check written? I haven't a clue. I don't even know who levied the accusation and it doesn't matter.
Had the messenger (either Todd or another racer) come and said I think your restrictor is too big, can I confirm it by the number on your dyno sheet and the number imprinted on the plate?
And did you buy the plates from a known vendor or did you make them yourself.
The visual documentation should have been plenty of evidence that I was 100% legal.
Granted, had I said I made them myself, that could have opened up even more questions.
Because I was naive, thinking this was all a gentleman's group, I was disappointed that my integrity was called into question and required a "tear down" to prove I wasn't cheating.
The number on the plate matching the number on the dyno sheet wasn't good enough. I was guilty till I could prove otherwise.
All of a sudden, it hit me like a ton of bricks that if I was being accused of cheating, me, the FNG, then that must be the way this group rolls. So I had better watch my back and be suspicious of any one snooping around my car. And to a degree, I still am today.
And its why I don't hang around other racer's cars unless invited.
It shouldn't be that way. What I think is nirvana is a director or any racer coming up to me and asking pointed questions about my legality and taking my word as truth and fact. I have nothing to hide, but the reality is its better to play the cards close to the chest, just to be safe.
Does that clarify?
This is at a regional level. The stakes are much higher at a national level.
Edit: Sorry ... glossed over the Tech question
It was the RM region and I spent about as much time in pre-Tech as we do here.
Post race inspection was very loose for the AI/CMC run group. But the season was already wrapped up.
The 944 guys were different as I recall because there was a close points battle.
Hmmm, can't seem to find my electronic copy of the 2009 AI rules as the 2010 rules are now posted only....but I distinctly remember there being a specific rule stating "the car must START the race with one operating tail light"...never mentions anything about finishing with it and I've actually seen cars with switches to turn them off during the race. Since nobody was verifying brake light operation in grid, or have ever defined when the race "starts" as taking the green flag or whether it is when the clock starts, ie, cars rolling out of grid, as it pertains to this rule...., something about no leg to stand on comes to mind....?Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Fernandez
Actually can't find anything in the 2010 AI rules regarding it and here is what the 2010 CCR states.
15.15 Lights
All non-formula cars must have at least one (1) operating red brake light visible from the rear of the car, unless otherwise stated as optional (or prohibited) by the specific class rules. All formula cars should have a red tail light. All cars must have at least one functioning red taillight, red brake light, and adequate headlights when competing in night races. Except during night races, all lights must be covered with tape. Brake
lights shall not be covered with tape or have their function altered or purposely hindered in any way.
All brake lights shall only be activated by a switch, which indicates the application of the braking system. Brake light switches and activation systems shall function so as to indicate the moment that the brake pedal engages the brakes. No adjustment to allow for early signals, false signals, or late signals of braking is permitted, unless superseded
by the class rules. Additionally, this rule applies to all vehicles that utilize brake lights in a class where brake lights are optional.
Pretty sure I would have had a defensible position for them failing during the race. However, had I been DQ'd for a mistake or rules enfraction, I might not have been happy about it, but it's my fault for the mistake and I would have taken my lumps. Only way he could have gotten me was under 5.2 of the 2010 rules...won't bore you with that one.
As for NASA's "intent" "tempered by the situation at hand"....never saw that in the rules anywhere. Probably not what the Likes of Dean Martin, Ross Murray or Pat Lindsay expected when they arrive at an event, national or regional. Probably not what someone expects when they buy a car and meet us AFTER they show up to an event having only read the rules posted on the national site either.
Just points to ponder about the flaws in the "plan".....
What about the hood ornament? :shock:Quote:
Originally Posted by TJ Bain
have you been to a race in Texas in August?! ;) Just tell me that you remembered DeSalvo's mistake of shutting the car off while waiting for the dyno! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by TJ Bain
i'm pretty sure Matt, that your for sale thread is in the state it was before i came along. Mitch and Mike can be asked to delete those posts they made, if you want to ask them.
G/L w/ the sale.
Great minds think alike...Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchntx
Pretty black and white to me. Your car did not have a tail light. Doesnt matter when it broke, it didnt have one at the time it was called in by a corner worker. Automatic black flag for noncompliance with the CCR in a 100% rules enforcement situation. Feel free to stand on that alleged leg of yours post race with an appeal, the race is over and at best you would've gotten the position you were in at the time, which wasnt third. Sounds to me like you're taking advantage of exactly what you're advocating shouldnt happen.Quote:
All non-formula cars must have at least one (1) operating red brake light visible from the rear of the car, unless otherwise stated as optional (or prohibited) by the specific class rules.
Also, wasnt it you that stated that asking people to volunteer their time without compensation was ludicrous, yet that is your solution to having sufficient resources to conduct your pro league level tech inspections? So, which is it...can we ask for volunteers or cant we? 8) Besides, that is only one aspect of why we cant...the time commitment for the racers is equally if not more important. At nats we spent over 1.5hrs in post race tech. You really want to spend 3hrs out of every race weekend in post race tech for our two races? You really think that will attract drivers? I dont, and neither does NASA.
i called two times yesterday and you said you wouldnt take my calls. ball is in your court. i'm an hour behind you time zone wise.Quote:
Originally Posted by AI#97
817-301-5224.
I was referring to Instructors who spend another 20 to 30 minutes in a car usually right after our race in our race suits...so if you'd like to compare YOU taking the suit off and telling war stories from the last race to someone WORKING in the heat...that's your gig. BTW, the top 5 cars/racers are already in Tech...form a "tech team", AI inspects CMC, CMC inspects AI...problem solved. As far as asking, try it sometime, you might be surprised by the response of the great racers in this group. Please don't base your expectations on what I would probably tell you or what you THINK I would tell you. You've asked for solutions in the past, there ya go.Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Fernandez
Good to know on YOUR interpretation of the brake light rule...however, I'd have to flip a coin as to what your NEXT ruling on that rule would be possibly based on time of day or weather condition...?
Al, my final point on ALL of this is I for one, and probably SEVERAL other AI racers don't have the confidence that you or Todd would choose to enforce 2010 AI rule 2.0, paragraph two, if that situation ever presented itself again even though I am sure that rule was written specifically in response to this year's start. That alone prevents me from supporting ANY decision you guys make, and maybe you can respect that. Other's mileage may vary with that one but when it comes right down to it, I don't trust or have faith in you to be my AI director. If that really is the NASA way, they REALLY need to re-iterate that in the rules CLEARLY instead of after the fact, AFTER racers spend money to be here. Comes across as a bait and switch and the attitude conveyed by the directors reinforces the perception of "look, you have a CMC/AI car, why would you leave? so just shut up and either race or don't...we keep getting more suckers to race with us anyway". Hell, in the dirt track world, that would probably get your tires slashed in the parking lot! but that ain't NASA I guess.
Sorry Glenn, seemed like you were talking about today...in reality, I like it when directors finally put things in writing so there isn't public/private conversations. You know I'm all about the black and white! ;)
Nope, not really interested either unless you guys get so many cars that you have a cash pay out. I'd have to buy a cool shirt just to think about it. :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by AI#97
No issue with shutting it off. It runs 220-240 all race when it's that hot depending on traffic and I have to remind the dyno operator to turn the fan on before he starts pulling. First pull was 210, last pull was 240+. :shock: I just can't find the motivation to buy a bigger radiator. Stock rads FTW!
And, I don't remember who's hood ornament that was, but it didn't come with the golf cart. :lol:
To bad, golf cart rentals at Mid-O would be a premium if it were.Quote:
Originally Posted by TJ Bain
Today was a fun day on the forum. I'm glad we resolved everything and that everyone is happy. :D
Looking forward to a productive 2010 season where rules are rules, the passing is clean, and Mosty keeps his wrong hole and stick to himself. :lol:
If you make Hallett, you're going to need one. However, dousing yourself with 3 cold bottles of water on grid works pretty good for the 20 minute races...then hose down with 3 more post race.Quote:
Originally Posted by TJ Bain
In August 06', burch cut his head getting out of his car in tech and the whole paddock panicked. We sat in our cars in 105 degree heat, 60% humidity and cars running for like 20 minutes. My shoe melted to the floor board. ended up walking around with an 8lb bag of ice on my shoulders for 4 hours and was a space cadet till about 8pm. Heat exhaustion is a PITA!!!!
For the prices some tracks charge for carts, they SHOULD come with "hood ornaments"!
Well what do you know Matt, it was you that said asking for people to work without compensation is retarded. I do ask for exactly that though. Every race weekend I ask guys to help with whatever needs to be done. Hell, I've even asked you once or twice when you didnt have your car. Guess I am being retarded...or am I since apparently now it is not only not retarded, it is what you're suggesting as the solution for having enough human resources at tech?Quote:
To ask someone to "help out" without compensation for doing so is as retarded as having our regional website done and then not paying for it.
Tech is a necessary evil of our hobby because we all want to know we're going into a fair fight. That said, I am confident nobody except apparently you wants to spend 1.5hrs plus after each race in the tech shed either tech-ing other cars or disassembling their car for it to be inspected. If that doesnt meet your expectations of how rigorous tech should be, fine, duly noted, but until NASA HQ tells me to spend that kind of time and have that kind of vehicle disassembly, it isnt going to happen. Personally I am damn glad because I would much rather be in the paddock chatting about the race with my friends than in the tech area taking apart my car to prove it is legal.
As far as enforcing AI rules 2.0 paragraph two...well, that section is actually all about good sportsmanship. If you want I might be able to dig up the email or PM I sent you a while back advising you that you would be sanctioned under NASA's good sportsmanship rules if you didnt cut out whatever it was you were doing at the time. I know of several cases where drivers were actually penalized under good sportsmanship rules. What's your point?
Al, consider this for a moment as a comparison why the "Nasa Model" is out of date or out of touch with today. I know you haven't been to one of these events so please just hear me out.
24 hours of lemons.
The rule book could be printed on 2 8.5x11 sheets of paper, however it is growing for safety clarifications. there are no clear definitions of what penalties will be assessed for certain acts of hoonage (actual word they use) or worries about tear downs for non-compliance.
However, 500 drivers showed up at the last single houston event, about 1/2 were NASA/SCCA racers, other 1/2 don't own race cars and have NEVER been on track before or don't race....a small few have left NASA even and race there, and even more have probably left the SCCA. This series has been on good morning america and seems to have regular 4 or 5 page coverage in GRM.....
Now, consider penalties assessed at these events for passing under yellow or contact. Pretty much the only rules that get enforced...because those are really the only two rules. these penalties involve such things as tar and feathering, sitting in a plastic dog house for 30 minutes, stripping down to the nomex and reading a bible of hoonage on the hood of your car, prancing around the paddock in a diaper in a congo line with the rest of your team or the best, having racoon piss poured onto your hand while wearing lipstick running around the paddock looking for a stuffed teddy bear....oh, BTW, your race car could be crushed mid way through the race too. Average entry cost per driver on a 4 driver team runs in the 600 to 800 dollar range, most teams are now running 3 or 4 events per year. The series has grown from 6 events in 2007 to something like 24 events this next year. there has even been a sister series called chump car started with something like 14 events next year. Of those 38 events, I think there are 8 or 10 in NASATX's back yard.
My point, is where is the fear of rules enforcement in those series? How are they growing so fast? Why is NASA car count down? these are all questions You, Todd and National SHOULD be asking themselves. Is it safe to ask if the fear that strict enforcement directly equals to lower car counts is still valid or not.
Is it so wrong for me to point out that the NASA model is probably 5 years out of date and could safely use a new model of strict rule enforcement? Is it so wrong for you to even try and consider it? If so, then yeah, jerk my ticket man. I'll go play at HPDE's and run lemons events. this seems to be the normal response for people that question why anyway so I suppose I shouldn't ask for you to consider change now. yes we are all happy we don't get torn down after every race, but you make it seem like enforcing the rules NASA took so long to write is taboo and runs people off, personally, I've seen the direct opposite. Weren't these rules designed to steal people from the SCCA....they have people willing to be torn down and don't seem to be hurting for car counts. Trying to tear me down and villify me for pointing out how things could be better with very little effort or blowing out of proportion what racers who challenge you say takes no steps forward for making things better. The perception (there's that word again) is that you dismiss anything that requires more effort of our directors and routinely turn it into an excuse validated by "we are just here to have fun". Mitch might call that a cop out?
BTW, the same guys that stayed late at the ECR saturday night BBQ were the hardest partying wack jobs in the paddock at lemons....surrounded by 2 to 300 other wackjobs eating crawfish and drinking beer till 3am.
I do agree this thread has been good to some extent, but it has also shown the true nature of some folks. Yes, tempers flare, but when some of the best ideas and offers of making things better are presented, instead of moving forward with some of the ideas, it turns into a "he said, they said" muck slinging contest usually ending in a banning, editing post or deleted post. Why? History of this group has shown that every time we have ruffled feathers, usually 3 or 4 events later, someone sees the light and things actually improve.
Anyway, do what You feel You need to do AL...all I ask is that you give 10 minutes to consider things COULD need to change. Do it for your customers, current, past and future!