They'll all be at Mid-Ohio on September 6th!Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardP
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They'll all be at Mid-Ohio on September 6th!Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardP
"all"??? All of what? There are only 9 CMC cars signed up...Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidney
Richard P.
And who's fault is that? The fastest guys in CMC are registered. Those that aren't can't complain. Either get to Mid-Ohio or shut up.
Sidney
Write the check and I'll be there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidney
Really !? So attending the Nationals is now a requirement to have a voice or influence on the rule set! Really!???Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidney
So the premise is that an S197 and 3 Camaro's racing at Mid-Ohio in a class of 9 cars will settle the brand parity argument being discussed regardless of regional participation - thus setting the direction of future rule changes? Excellent - no reason to actually spend any effort on these things ..... let's just let the loudest voice or the biggest wallet do it.
That's a perfect way to resolve these things. I guess I was wrong all along - no sense in spending time actually conducting side-by-side tests of the ABS in AI and then getting feedback. Apparently you just need to show up at Nats have a beer and it's done.
Wonder how that logic would play out if Nats finds it way to oh..say Austin for 5 years? Or California?
Sidney, is Bob running his 3rd gen or a 4th gen?
Glenn, not sure what great data we will get from Nationals considering the 9 cars registered consist of 2 S197's and the rest 4th gens (depending on what Bob drives).
Hmmm.
I had no idea what/who was signed up for Nats when I said that. Any data will be useless.Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelmosty
Dan Allford and Red Shift Racing will be there at NASA Nationals in the #82 Camaro. We've done a lot of prep work and we are extremely confident of a top ten finish...
Richard P.
Finally someone else gets it! Welcome to the light.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueFirePony
Sidney... You guys are fortunate that the "national" event is in your own backyard. It makes no sense for most of us to spend more money to make a single event than I do racing an entire season. Maybe the the national event will come closer to us and more of us can afford to make it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidney
Bob will have his third gen, the fourth gen is no where close to being ready.
I don't think it matters where nationals is at as far as CMC is concerned, if it isn't a destination track on your bucket list CMC will have a low turnout. We all are just too cheap to drive across country for anything less. If it is in Texas next year, it will probably be a great event for CMC, so lets hope it is in Texas.
Bryan
You're so full of shit and you know it. If you had the cash to be there you'd have a completely different view. I really thought you got it...guess not.Quote:
Originally Posted by GlennCMC70
The point I was trying to make is any amatuer series can only use their National Championship as a check for rules equity. This is not Grand Am or Nascar where all teams race every weekend. These organizations can make rules changes weekly to make sure one brand isn't out performing another. NASA can only compare cars at Nationals, SCCA can only compare cars at the Runoffs, IT classes can only compare at the ARRC at Road Atlanta. You can't make rules changes based on data only received from Texas cars.
Sidney
Understand sarcasm when you see it. You obviously don't know me very well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidney
Any data is good data as long as you know the limits of what it is telling you. That includes regional data as well. Nationals is not special in that regard. And I'm not sure why you think rules are made/changed based on Texas.... If that was the case, you wouln't have 13" 4 pistom brakes in CMC. No wings either. And alot of S-197 rules have changed w/out a single one here in TX.
For someone who isnt racing in CMC (sold your car right?), you seem to have alot of strong and public opinions these days. Where was all this when it affected you?
Unfortunately NASA Nationals is that special as it's the one event that can be considered the place where the best drivers race together. If you don't agree with that then we'll just have to agree to disagree.Quote:
Originally Posted by GlennCMC70
So what Region wanted 13" 4 piston brakes? Sure wasn't GL/MW.
The Mustang rules were changed because the leaders drive F-bodies and no one in Texas was going to bitch at them about putting them on 235's!
You obviously don't know me either as the 12 seasons that I had a comp license I posted/emailed/called/attended rules meeting...etc often.
Sidney
I think many will disagree... racing with a handful of cars with only a few of those actually competitive is hardly worthy of a "national" race. IMHOQuote:
Originally Posted by Sidney
I'm with you James. Nationals has not been the place to race the best of the best in CMC. Hallett a few years ago when we had guys from three or four regions may not have had every top driver in the country but it had ten times the total talent any Nats has had.Quote:
Originally Posted by AllZWay
The driver many consider to be the best in Texas has never even been to a national event. That may be true for other regions as well.
JJ
I'll have to say the best I know of was the first Nats. 23 cars.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowBolt
Before my time.Quote:
Originally Posted by GlennCMC70
JJ
Yep-we will have to disagree about Nats. It would be great to be able to consider it the place where all the best drivers of the country race together but that just isn't the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidney
Probably could agree on the 4 piston brakes though-that wasn't the Texas Region.
That being said, I can't wait for Dan to bring home the trophy!!!!!
Sidney, I agree that data from Nationals should be used as a data point, but I don't agree that it is the only data point, nor the most important.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidney
NASA's business model, as I understand it, depends on growing regional participation and stabilizing regional competition - NASA gains credibility with the National event and it should factor in, but not be THE driver (pun).
The sports design (everything from rule set to promotion to operations) NEEDS to drive regional participation and competition.
Platform parity affects every race in every region all year long...get it wrong and the business suffers in orders of magnitude more than just low participation at National level.
Using National data alone will not translate regionally. Using regional data AND national data will translate regionally AND nationally.
It's easier to talk over a long weekend with a dozen or so drivers but its better to spend time analyzing data from a dozen or so regions over a reasonable period of time.
Seems the rules in CMC to support the S197 in general and big brakes specifically are a case in point, yes?
Someone see the big picture.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueFirePony
Nice post.
What was this thread about again?
Quote:
Originally Posted by GlennCMC70
It started as a joke trying to "scientifically" infer relative testosterone levels of Mustang and Camaro drivers based on non-direct and questionable (or outright bogus) "data." It's actually pretty funny that parity discussions were tacked onto this thread rather than any of the other relevant threads...
Richard P.
Same. Nat's isn't a gathering of the best drivers. It's the ones with the most money.Quote:
Originally Posted by AllZWay
If only the drivers had to show up and there was a 302S waiting there for everyone, Rehagen Racing wouldn't just show up and steal the AI purse.
Ed, small fields are a fact of the "budget" classes like CMC and Spec944. The more well funded classes like AI and ST are not short of talent at nationals. Trust me!Quote:
Originally Posted by edrock96GT
Not the most money, just those willing to spend alot to go. I went 4 times and didn't have the coin to do it 3 of those times. Paying for that now.Quote:
Originally Posted by edrock96GT
CMC had 23 the first year. I bet if it gets moved to KS, we would see 30 car fields in CMC.Quote:
Originally Posted by rpoz27
Exactly my point. The well funded guys within said classes can go to nationals. The rest of us (you as well, I know) who spend years to transform their once daily driver cars into race cars in their garages during the time they're not at work using the money they have left over from work after paying bills that do everything they can to be competitive at the regional level don't really have much of a chance against Grand Am teams and drivers that moonlight as "grassroots" racers.Quote:
Originally Posted by rpoz27
Agreed. If it were in Kansas, I'd be there.Quote:
Originally Posted by GlennCMC70
Leaving Tue after work to get there for Wed practice and then be home super late Sunday night would be do-able for me. Missing 3 days of work is a lot easier than missing 6!!!
Only 8 cars registered in CMC for Nationals, one of which is a Mustang and isnt the current champion.
I think I always took 10 days for Nats. I always wanted to be there Monday morning. Get settled. Gives you a day incase you have issues in route. Tuesday is good for running erands and getting your space set-up. Wed for practice and whatever cause Thursday is starts counting. By Sunday evening, last thing you want to do is start driving home. We would drive until sundown and say the night somewhere. Made for a long Monday, and worked Tuesday if you thought you could pull it off.
The whole Nats deal is BS. This is supposed to be grassroots racing and we are supposed to be grassroots racers. If you insist on having a National race have it change locations every year. Once in each region changing every year. East Coast, West Coast, Midwest, Miller, Texas, and Barber in the Southeast. How many Cal. racers are going to drive to Mid Ohio? I assumed the Cal. guys would make the race at Miller but it's still over 700 miles for them. Miller and Mid Ohio are over 1250 miles for Team Jordan. The money is not as big a deal as the time off for me (but the money with fuel at $4.00 is a big deal). As a married racer my wife does not want her vacation time away from our business spent at a race track! Lets face it we are reagional racers and CMC has no real National champion with eight cars showing up at Nationals. I still contend and would be willing to bet that the best CMC racer in the country has never even been to Nationals.
JJ
Jerry - to put it simply, you completely underestimate what it takes to pull off a successful, National event with over 400 drivers. Moving it around each year would not only be a logistical nightmare, but also make it difficult for NASA to negotiate with various tracks when they want to hold it around the same time each year.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowBolt
Something you also don't get - people were asking, no, demanding a NASA National event, since I got involved in 2003.
While you may not agree with the Nats, there are many who do. You are clearly voting with your wallet, and there's nothing wrong with that.
Don't call the Nats BS.....it's not. That's a very myopic point of view.
IMO, it's no different that winning a race, or a regional championship - at a minimum, you must start to be able to finish. I don't believe for one minute that only those with deep pockets can make it to the Nats. It takes will, determination, drive, sacrifice, and yes, $$$.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowBolt
I've attended 3 National events as a competitor (and 3 times as an official), and each time, it took sacrifice to get there. Sacrifice in not attending a regional event (or two, or three!) to save $$, sacrifice in saving up enough vacation time to make the haul, sacrifice in spending time with the family, etc. In each case (2006, 2007, and 2010), I planned a full year in advance, and was never 100% sure I'd make the event due to any number of circumstances. And yes, money was one of those circumstances.
What does that have to do with anything? That's like saying the best F1 driver hasn't competed yet because they haven't been offered a ride with Ferrari, or RBR.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowBolt
I no longer have any dog in this fight, but be forewarned ...
It appears you guys are being "baited" into an arguement.
I realized it on a different site and backed out.
I don't know what the agenda is now, but its not so different than what was witnessed several years ago.
Don't play the game ...
Edited for clarity
Wow - quite the conspiracy theorist.Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchntx
The NASA Nats are BS to me and I stand by it. How much planning it takes makes no difference. How hard the people at NASA work to put it on makes no difference to those of us that don't go. If it's worth it to have it at all its worth it to move it around so every racer can have a better chance to run them. You say it's worth all the planning, time off from work and money, but most don't agree.....at least not in CMC or you would have 50-70 car fields. I'm sure some people wanted NASA to have a Nats and love running them but for most of us it's BS. Even if you don't like hearing it Adam. If I was wrong you would have four times the entries!Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Ginsberg
Last my statement about the best driver not ever going to Nats......all I was saying is in most sports the champion is the best or at least the one of the very best. Because of the distance to NASA Nats a lot of guys will never make the trip so as far as CMC is concerned the best drivers may never make it to a National event. The guys that do go can't do anything about this and I don't mean to take anything away from them. All they can do is race all that show up.
I'm not going to fight with Adam on this Mitch but this is JMHO and I still get to have one in this country......at least for now.
JJ
He's definitely trolling for something.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowBolt
I agree with your points.
For a series that is (or was) a budget oriented series, CMC Nats is a social event, not a king of the mountain contest.
Many of the most talented CMC participants have limited time, limited funds and/or limited budgets.
I was there twice and all that planning yielded a botched start one year and a cluster-f*^k finish the other.
Holy shit, you have serious issues, Mitch. I'm not attempting to "bait" or troll anyone into anything. Good lord, calm the hell down.
Jerry, you are 100% correct - the champion is the best, or at least one of the very best. And no one said you couldn't have your opinion, so don't put words in my mouth.
In ALL sports, the champion is the one who shows up, and bests everyone else in attendance that day/race. At a regional level, a single event weekend, down to one single race.....the best is determined by who shows up, takes the green flag, and crossed the checker first. Those that don't attend can't ever be a race winner, or champion - that is my point.
Saying a champion out of 8 drivers isn't really a champion because "the best CMC driver hasn't attended the Nationals" is disingenuous, and takes everything away from those that worked their asses off to be there.
<chomp>Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Ginsberg
Playing a bit loose there trying to set up your argument. "ALL sports"?? "That day/race"??? Uhmmm, no!?
Most autosports (F1, Grand Am, ....) have a year long points system and even NASCAR has a 10 race "tourney" over many months. Hockey, basketball and baseball have tournaments with multi-game elimination series. In professional sports the series approach is certainly motivated by $ but even amateur versions have similar series approaches where feasable because it is the preferred approach from a sports design perspective.
To Jerry's point....so "people" demanded a National event? I bet a bunch more would demand free beer and backrubs if that's all it takes.
Over 400 drivers attend Nationals...how many don't?
Again, I sure hope the regional business folks are ahead of this (I am sure Dave and Revkah are...just don't know the others). Take a poll of the people who do NOT go to Nationals and I am sure they are less concerned about who gets the paper crown of "National Champion" than they are with regional success (both business and competition).
Formalizing and celebrating events like Hallet as the "Summer Shootout" is the way to go IMO. Not sure Hallet is the only/best place to do it but if it is it then it needs to be super-hyped - I really think this is where the energy needs to be focused. Regional growth is the key to NASA continuing to be successful. List three things about NASA that you would tell someone who was interested in putting a car on track (DE, TT or race)...would Nationals even be something you'd bring up in the initial conversation? If so you are probably wasting an opportunity...It's not in my elevator pitch that's for sure.
</chomp>
I have asked about the Midwest region doing a crossover at Hallet, unfortunately during the same time the Midwest region goes to Gingerman and the Great Lakes region goes to Grattan. For us to do a crossover with Texas and Rocky Mountain at Hallet it would be best for us if it was in late October. Of course sometimes we go to Hallet anyway, this year didn't work out for a bunch of people.
Bryan
I think it would make more sence to crossover w/ the central region for you and us. At the same event would be even better.Quote:
Originally Posted by roadracerwhite
Nationals does have a "play-off" format - sort of. Sure, the Champ is crowned based off the results of a single race, but there are 2 races prior that set the stage. You can run all the Regional races you want, but none of them give you the National Title.