You Dallas people and your HSO's...Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanL
Turn on the Fan.
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You Dallas people and your HSO's...Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanL
Turn on the Fan.
It is not a matter of affording the tires sometimes...... but the wanting to afford the tires. The cost of racing continues to grow as the rules change and the tires are just one more aspect of the continued costs...that could be contained if Toyo would stop screwing us on the tire.
No one was complaining about the original RA1...why did they change? To screw us out of more money.
My problem is not just the price of the tires it's how fast they heat cycle out. I put on a brand new set of RR's for the first race at Hallett. So five heat cycles on that set. Are they a second slower now? Some say yes. I disagree with you on this BL. I do not want to have to purchase a new set of tires every race weekend. Can I? Sure, but how many people will feel like Mike does right now? Maybe what I am hoping for is not possible. I wish we had a tire that you could run two sets in a six race weekend season and not be giving up anything. Maybe it can't be done. I would settle for the RA1 we had prior to the RR if that is the best we can get. You say "if you can't afford the tire bill maybe you should not be racing". How much of a Tire bill? How many in CMC would be willing to buy a new set of RR's every race weekend? I'm guessing very few.....I guess maybe they should not be racing?Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanL
JJ
I agree with you James and Jerry-Richard pointed this out that it's not the wear- it's about the degradation after 5 heat cycles. I certainly may not come across the way my mind thinks on paper as writing was always my worst subject. I know Jerry, James and I all feel the same way about the overall cost of the racing and things such as brakes, shocks, etc. I thought about this as I'm going to be taking my shocks off this weekend. I would love the limit on shocks to be half what it is now and now 4 piston brakes-though neither are needed to win and they both can be justified especially the brakes over many season's of racing and if your original car comes with sorry brakes-LT'1.
When I started I think I did a full season on one set of RA1's-I would like to get back to something similar to that or at least only two sets for a season. I have only bought 4 tires this year and don't want to buy anymore. I'm not interested in nor do I want something that you have to show up with a new set for every race. That's why I'm here and not in other classes. Others have joined our group because of this very problem with other classes like Time trial, spec pinata etc. I know there are others that can certainly afford whatever series they choose to run yet they want the same things I want and choose CMC.
Jerry brings up a good point about what is a reasonable tire budget. Well everyone will have a different answer depending on how much they want to spend, can spend, and how bad they want to win. I want under $1k per year which is how it was when I started yet I'm not sure that is possible. If our class because of the RR becomes one that you have to run a new tire every weekend then it will certainly impact some racers. I'll probably be fine to stay on my old tires and stay in the mid pack like in the past. Though even before the RR it always seemed I would see the trophy girls putting on fresh rubber for the money races or especially the final at hallett. I think people are fine to race without new tires even if it's needed to be on the podium. That has happened in our class in the past and goes on in other classes. Now whether they should or shouldn't because they can't afford tires is up to them.
I'm merely pointing out that we need to realize what the alternatives are before we really become a squeaky wheel. I believe a squeaky wheel either gets the grease or it gets replaced-I fear getting replaced more than anything. So, before we go raise hell maybe we should have something to present as an alternative. We haven't been happy with what they have brought to us so why would we expect something different or expect them to find a solution? Maybe we need to find the solution? I'm not saying I'm right but just trying to be the devils advocate.
I think we can all say the RA1 of the mid 2000's was the best and will never be available again.
I also feel that the RA1 from around 2008-current is still a good tire. I have always bought my RA1's at either 5/32's (if I was doing a practice day to wear them down) or a "thick" 4/32 if not practicing. I flip my tires after every event and have been fortunate to always get at least 3 events out of a set of tires. I truly feel that b/w heat cycle 10-15 the tire is still just as fast as when new. Even during the 3rd event (heat cycle 15-20) they are still very good and at maybe only fall off 1/2 a second.
I'm not saying the RA1 is the best solution going forward, but for what is available to us it seems much better than the RR.
I agreem with what Bryan says, I would doubt CMC comes into the discussion when Toyo is determining how to make their new fancy tire.
A bunch of us should enter AIX and try the Maxxis tires. The winner gets two tires and if you win both days that's a whole set for free! $1k worth of tires.
Plus 2nd and 3rd get one free tire as well as long as there are 5 starters.
Just a thought.
What I'm concerned about that this is a precursor to a two race weekends. Less heat cycles on the tires! I can't run a 45 minute race with my gas tank that would force me to go to a fuel-cell. Ugh!!!
The Maxxis review that Ken posted was a nice read. I'd be interested in reality on a race car at race pace for performance/degradation. Buy me a set Aaron, and I'll try them =) I'm done buying tires for the year lol (except for the truck, dammit).
Yah I'm done racing for the year too haha. My new budget is for diapers!
I read that, but really question how hard he pushes his car. Sure, he has 9 years track experience but how many short runs did he make before he sorted out his cooling system? There've been some growing pains with that car illustrated in some of his previous articles so I wouldn't place too much stock in that tire's durability based off of that article. I would still remain curious. This is the first long term R compound test I've seen them run.Quote:
Originally Posted by kbrewmr2
I just ordered two tires from Phil's. Even with the $175.00 in Toto Bucks my bill is $360.00. That means the tires cost me $267.50 plus shipping! I have been getting tires from John George at $240.00. I really never pay much attention to the cost as it goes on the wife's credit card. I had in my mind I was paying around $200.00 each. Almost $1100.00 a set. Have we lost our minds?
JJ
Phil's is more cause they are in New York. However they shave the RA1's better than anyone in the country.
That's about what I paid for RR's last time and around the same at all vendors including shipping. You also paid $20 each for shaving.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowBolt
Have you bought a set of tires for a street vehicle? 18" tires on my wife's SUV were $145 a piece 7 years ago-now they are $240. (oil) Somehow that inflation works out higher than the govt. reporting under 2%-but maybe they include tires as part of the ex food/energy.
I was just shocked. I don't know why I was thinking $200.00 per tire. Closer to $300.00.Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanL
Yes I know about inflation. It is real. The SOB in the White House says there is zero inflation.
JJ
I feel your pain!Quote:
Originally Posted by Suck fumes
As soon as the 17's are available I plan on trying them.....I will need tires for TWS unless I stick with the Nittos but I am chasing a 1:48 going CCW.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeP99Z
Sean, the fuel cell deal isn't that big of a deal. I just put a 25 Gallon FIA GT3 cell in my car for around $900 and I get to do it again in 5 years.....ugh.
BFG R1 in 275/40/17 are $281 at Phil's.....and you can find them at tire rack on sale for $250 twice a year......they have been my best Speed for the Buck but I get about 1.5 events out of a set and have to go to my back up to finish the second weekend.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowBolt
BFG's heat cycle out bad like Toyos. The front running mx5 cup guys only used them for 3 sessions then chunked em.
I would suggest lining up a discussion session Friday night at TWS with Will and Dave. They're our best direct link to NASA HQ. I'm comfortable stating that the RR cycles out is a fact, and reasonably comfortable stating that the current RA1 may not have the life of the old ones but that it doesnt heat cycle out is also a fact. Correct that if you dont agree. I am not comfortable stating that X tire exists that does not cycle out as has been proven in a sprint race environment. I dont consider TT or DE a race environment.
Deciding on a good tire is going to require NASA to invest in various sets and having someone do tests on them. That's what SCCA did a few years ago when SM kept switching tires yr to yr and finally settled on Hoosiers. NASA should buy a set of nittos, Maxxis etc and have someone actually test them in a real environment with a data system installed and get real data instead of everyone just playing the "well this might work" game. That's the only way NASA will make people happy.
Now I know Toyo pays a lot of money so I understand the business side of it but I would hope that one of these other manufactures would step up and pay NASA to run their tires if they are better.
I would be happy with the newer RA1 but would really like to see us be able to get the old RA1 since the RR is Toyo's main tire now.
JJ
Are you raising your hand to see if they have time and would be happy to join in? I don't think there are pitchforks and torches involved... c'mon this is Texas. (It would be ARs and high power LED flashlights)Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Fernandez
What about enduro laps? I believe there's pretty good CMC and AI data on the NT01 from the last couple of enduros.Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Fernandez
The issue isnt durability (again correct me if I'm wrong), rather a loss of peak grip after a few heat cycles. Endurance racines are therefore entirely out as data because of the nature of enduros (not running 10/10ths). We're not talking seconds a lap drop here.
Now...this might ruffle a few feathers...but are we open to the idea that the old RA1 really wasnt as good as we remember and rather that back in the good ol' days we just werent as fast as we are now? I mean that in the collective since I'm not faster lol. But honestly, year over year lap times come down. Sure both AI and CMC had a bump in power and CMC had a bump in tire size but that was a one time deal and the lap times still come down. Maybe we just didnt know any better back then. Maybe we just werent pushing things hard enough for the 1/4 second a lap drop in peak grip to matter. Once upon a time off the shelf Koni's were rare and top guys were running Billsten HDs. Podium mustangs ran "H&R Race" spring rates. Nobody blew out control arm bushings nor did they tear out control arm mounts. Just thinking out loud...
Al, we have talked about this every time we have this discussion. It is possible the old RA1 was the same as the new one but I'm willing to bet it's not. One thing for sure is we will never know so that is why I said I would be happy to go back to the latest RA1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Fernandez
JJ
Not wrong - just perspective. If a set of tires was $100 I might not care about the rapid drop. If a set of tires was $2,000 - and dropped 10 seconds after 1 heat cycle but ran consistently after that and lasted 3 seasons I might not care. I am entirely comfortable that somebody (if not most of you guys) is ALWAYS going to outspend and/or outprep me. Along with your impressively good looks and natural driving talent...Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Fernandez
If a $100 tire is durable enough to race on safely, everybody runs it, and the racing is close, I don't care what the absolute laptimes are. We could race on an oiled down skidpad and if it was safe, fun, and "cheap" I would be in.
p.s. - if I can ever get to 10/10ths in a sprint race i'll let you know.
I think that is a definite possiblity. When I started a set of tires would last all season but I was slow as christmas and only slid the car when I spun.Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Fernandez
Toyo did change their compounds because back in 2008 or 2009? I remember SCCA had gotten a couple "new" RA1 sets and gave them to MSR Houston for Rivera and Ott to test to see what they were like and for data purposes on the miatas. Now why would Toyo do that if the tires stayed the same?? Mmmmm
I need to order tires for TWS. I think I will order some RR's and give them another try before I go back to RA1's. Maybe it's a case where the track determines what tires to use? I'm about 98% sure the RR is faster at TWS, but I haven't tried them at other tracks.
To me the question is up to what number of heat cycles? Will be good input since you have some skill around there.Quote:
Originally Posted by blk96gt
I talked to Michael last night and he and I both hope we never have to buy another set of RR's.
JJ
The tire life is actually pretty long but don't expect it to grip. I was surprised how long it actually takes to wear it all the way down.
I agree. I was told that they lose some time after five heat cycles but after 10 they are as hard as rock. Still lots of rubber left though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Suck fumes
JJ
I Will be on 2 sticker RR's and 2 14hc RR's at tws :-/
Just put the stickers on the right side and you'll be fine.
I've got 8 or 9 heat cycles on my RR's right now, and will likely use them for at least one of the invert races. I will probably use them during the T&T as well. I also have a set of 12-15 HC RA1's that I may play around with too. I'm thinking about running the HC RR's for the invert race Saturday and the RA1's on the Sunday invert race.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fbody383
If my car doesn't blow up or anything, I'd be willing to do a few laps with the HC RA1's during one of the DE sessions on Saturday and then do another session around the same time of day on Sunday with the HC RR's. I can send the Traqmate data to anyone who wants it (if there appears to be much of a difference for lap times).
If you do that, note to self:Quote:
Originally Posted by Suck fumes
Pass Tyler after T3, 4, or 9. :^)
My thoughts exactly.
I'll just compensate with my cool APC wing yo...
but now he knows that you knows and can plan a defense. But by me saying that know you know that he knows that you know that he knows that....
I'll have my 17HC and 7HC RR's ready to fight...