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way to take charge Marshall.
i would have liked to see them come here and answer our questions on their "extra" time instead of us bothering them via a phone call @ what could be an inconvenient time. i know there are umpteen milloin racer web sites, but if would be nice to see them active here. i see JWL and others very active on the AI forums.
Man, you guys crack me up. I start a post about 40 minute races and you've turned it into "we want MORE track time via 4 x 30 minute races" lol.
Seriously, after Todd's post warning that we may actually lose our previous 4 x 20 races per weekend what are the odds of getting 4 x 30 races? How does a 30 minute race help those who are preparing for Nationals? (IIRC, that was the main force behind getting 40 minute races to begin with?).
I think we need to get our "wants" straight before we take them up the hill, poor Covini might be lobbying for changes and we're calling Shannon directly with a different message? (not slamming you Marshall, just trying to get us all on the same page)
I think January's banquet might be too late in the process for some of these items we're discussing to be presented to NASA TX.
Glenn,Quote:
Originally Posted by GlennCMC70
I called Shannon, not the other way around. She sent an email to call if I was up... I was so I called.
Mike,
Like I said, I hopefully didn't step on anyone's feet. I was just discussing some things that "I" think will make NASA better. I wasn't throwing any propaganda at Shannon, just small ideas and areas where we have concern.
Most of my last post came from Shannon directly and was not prompted by me.
Regarding 4 30 minute races per weekend, I was lobbying that to Shannon as a "starting point" for more track time... not that it was what was 100% wanted by the entire group.
I'm just trying to communicate some of the information that was exchanged so people aren't "in the dark".
i understand Marshall and didnt mean for it to come across as you doing a bad thing. just that its the main reason i dont call and do "this" over the phone. those guys get a milion phone calls and emails a day about NASA stuff. it could be overwhelming. the formatt will let them answer at their convinence. i think the 30 minute races are a double edge sword. the qual races are 20 and there are 2 of them. the main is 40. a 30 will not teach you the pace of getting it done now for the 20, and will not teach you the durration you need to do a 40. how about 2 30's and a 40?
Marshall,
Like I said, I wasn't slamming you for calling. In fact, most of the news you reported is stuff I'd expect NASA TX to be sending out to ALL of their race groups and perhaps they will after they get it all finalized. Most of it is admin related (website updates/additions, new "coordinator" position, etc).
More track time? That's a good thing IMHO. I was just laughing about how we went from Covini's warning about possibly losing track time to asking for more - what a fun group we are to ride herd on lol.
the overall suggestion summary is that AI/CMC gets more track time because WE have the car counts to support it. How about the groups that don't have the car counts only get one 30 minute race per day as a start...if they don't make the count, bump off the schedule. Put the ball in their court to "earn" track time.
I have also heard mention of going to the CALI format with one race per day...sorry, but that just isn't what I am looking for.
United front to NASATX?...your right! However, we need a little initial input from NASATX on who they are bringing to the table for run groups next year if we are going to not waste time formulating OUR plan. If they come out and say there are going to be 12 run groups next year instead of 9, then obviously we have a bigger problem.
How about a run down of session groups.
AI/CMC...GPC
Spec7, spec Miata, legends
HPDE 1/2
HPDE 3/4
I know I am forgetting someone....? Or did they all leave already.
Ok, how about group #5 just be everything else not in the above groups?
It shouldn't be very difficult to do 5 run groups per day with ANY length of race/Qual/practice....other than grid assignments. :shock:
What am I, chopped liver? :(Quote:
Originally Posted by GlennCMC70
I have been reading this thread and I agree that this group needs more track time. I was just waiting for a vote to unified voice to comment. There a many things that are in the works for next year. One thing in particular is the schedule. The event in October is going to be a guidline for every event next year - no more over booking. I would really like to have a "Ford" day and "GM" day at one of the events next year. It would be great for you guys to help get some of your club buddies out for a car show or for them to participate in HPDE.
I actually prefer a phone call over message boards. I don't get as many calls as you might think. Part of my job description is Class Development and I would gladly discuss any ideas to help AI/CMC. Call me, this time of year is really slow for the A/C business.
254-644-9310
Phones work both ways, PM'd you my cell number. If NASA TX wants to solicit input that's great by me.
If I need to send a message upstairs I'll stick with the current chain-of-command structure, we're down one Series Director and I don't want to undermine the last remaining one!
With Todd's retirement looming on the horizon, it appears that Marshall has stepped up to plate to fill the director's role.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Bell
Not a bad choice, if I say so.
hmmm ... didn't think of you as the meat in the sandwich, more of a condiment ... 8)Quote:
Originally Posted by Waco Racer
My wife definately would NOT let that happen. She's already bitching about the time I spend on these boards after work...Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchntx
Aww Schucks... :)Quote:
Not a bad choice, if I say so.
sorry Clifton, but i was talking about Shannon and those who deside our fate. i have obviously underestimated your role and the power you have to guide our destiny. please accept my apology.
I am the one that sets the schedule and helps to bring in visiting series so I thought I would offer to help in the decision making process. I have inside information and I can be bribed! :wink:
I know that this is a serious discussion and I am here to help. Call me or send me a PM and I'll call you.
Forget the serious discussions, I had fun speaking with Clifton. (even if he is a member of the "dark side" lol.)
Bribes, hmmm - been known to carry a spare twenty on occasion........ :lol:
I "relish" the opportunity to talk with anyone. "Ketchup" with you later!Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchntx
Glenn, for the love of God, it's "decide"... I let it slide 4 or 5 times now but geesh!!!! Friggin' F-body drivers! :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by GlennCMC70
tell ya what Matt, you spell for me and i'll drive for you, deal?
lets rename this site to C-C.com/jr?
dayum, dude, give it a rest.
Clifton,
More track time is appreciated. Given your comment about the October schedule being used as a guideline for future events, is it pretty much a given that groups 5 and 8 will be combined?
Will there continue to be a group 3? (formula vee) I seem to recall seeing only 4 entries on the grid for this group. For those like me with short memories, here's the groups per last October's event schedule:
Group 1 HPDE 1&2
Group 2 HPDE 3&4, Comp students are in this group
Group 3 Formula Vee
Group 4 <blank>
Group 5 AI, AIX, AIV,CMC
Group 6 Spec Miata Challenge
Group 7 SRX7, BG, PerformanceTouring E-H, Honda Challenge 4-5, Legends (LP,LM,LS), Allison Legacy (AL), Se7ens 1-5, Spec Neon, SE-R Cup
Group 8 GPC 1-2 & X; GTS 1-5 and U; ASC; PerformanceTouring A-D, R and U; Panoz; HC1-3 & U,Spec SRT, 944 Spec, 944 Cup, Factory Five Racing Challenge (FFR)
Group 9 Time Trial only Session
Group 10 <blank>
I would vote for the following "race groups"
Saturday
1. Group 1 HPDE 1&2
2. Group 2 HPDE 3&4, Comp students are in this group
3. Group 5 AI, AIX, AIV,CMC & Group 8 GPC 1-2 & X; GTS 1-5 and U; ASC; PerformanceTouring A-D, R and U; Panoz; HC1-3 & U,Spec SRT, 944 Spec, 944 Cup, Factory Five Racing Challenge (FFR)
4. Group 6 Spec Miata Challenge & Group 7 SRX7, BG, PerformanceTouring E-H, Honda Challenge 4-5, Legends (LP,LM,LS), Allison Legacy (AL), Se7ens 1-5, Spec Neon, SE-R Cup
5. Group 9 Time Trial only Session
Group 3 Formula Vee **Eliminated**
Sunday
1. Group 1 HPDE 1&2 & Group 2 HPDE 3&4, Comp students are in this group
2. Group 5 AI, AIX, AIV,CMC & Group 8 GPC 1-2 & X; GTS 1-5 and U; ASC; PerformanceTouring A-D, R and U; Panoz; HC1-3 & U,Spec SRT, 944 Spec, 944 Cup, Factory Five Racing Challenge (FFR)
3. Group 6 Spec Miata Challenge & Group 7 SRX7, BG, PerformanceTouring E-H, Honda Challenge 4-5, Legends (LP,LM,LS), Allison Legacy (AL), Se7ens 1-5, Spec Neon, SE-R Cup
4. Group 9 Time Trial only Session
Group 3 Formula Vee **Eliminated**
Well, if I owned a Formula Vee I wouldn't be too happy with that option. How about combining groups 3 into group 6? I'm not sure what laptimes the FV's run but it can't be too far off from BG/Legends is my guess.
To repeat myself, I'm against group 5 and 8 being combined.
<waiting for the wrath of Mixon to come down on me like rain>
If groups must run together they should be stacked by qual times.
jb
But we don't even do that within our own run group after the MSRC double-yellow problem, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffburch
Wow - that's a lot in one group - our group. I personally don't want to be on the track with the Factory Five Cars and haven't been too impressed with the Panoz cars either. Split into two with CMC, AI, AIX, Group 8 like we've done in the past and put all the others in another group.Quote:
Originally Posted by marshall_mosty
I also feel that the Miatas, RX7's, Hondas, Neons, Civics could group together effectively.
The October event seemed to have a lot of track space in some groups. By being more track-efficient, everyone/all groups could see more track time.
Respectfully submitted,
If I see groups 5 and 8 combined again, I will not run until we have our own run group. No drama added here, just a line in the sand.Quote:
Originally Posted by marshall_mosty
If the issue is the Group 8 guys lapping the group 5 guys, then the solution would be 15 minute races.
Then the group 8s wouldn't have enough time to come around and lap the slower run groups.
So, who's in for six 15 minute races per weekend?
15 minutes, not enough time to get he Bimmer out of the mud Mitch.
C'mon man, I thought you were President!!??
Guys, I think we have been spoiled by having our own group for some time now. REAL racing with NASA on the East coast has 70 car fields with 10-15 seconds a lap covering first to 70th place. It's just another element in racing in multiclass fields. Until we get 40-50 AI/CMC cars on grid, I would say we should expect Group 8 in our run group. It will make us better drivers AND create some more action and opportunities for passing with slower/faster traffic. I personally welcome it (with the understanding that questionable drivers in GPC get talked to).
If NASA TX is going to grow and we still want 4 races or more track time each weekend, we MUST combine groups. If the shleps on the west and east coasts can do it, we smart guys here in TX should be able to figure it out as well!!! The key to larger fields is making sure that EVERYONE in the run group is ready and capable of running in a pack of different class cars. If someone can't hack it, back to racecraft they go.
The one thing that has held true in this thread is that 4 30 minute races seems a given. Maybe we need to present that to NASA TX as our demands and let them respond?
Daron, if you want to save some time and money....I have a car collecting dust in the garage! :wink:
For those of us who started in '03, the dream of having our own run group was the pot-o-gold. Once the car count increased we were very hopeful and that pot seemed much closer.
Fast forward. Yes, we have the car count to deem worthy of our own group and with tooth and nail the directors fought for it and actually were successful (many cheers).
I don't want to step backwards after the long fought battle for the hill only to give it up without a fight.
It's not my sandbox, but it is my stick.
Let me clarify.Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffburch
The slow group 8 cars gridded if front of faster ai/cmc cars is what I have a problem with. Most of the ones I'm referring to are the occational patron from who knows where. Rolling chicanes, corner picnic-ers, cones. Vipers/bimmers/panoz/caterhams/super 7's/porches etc.
Stack the grid by qual times.
EV, wanna team up?
Me North, you South.
jb
Matt, there is still the question regarding how do 30 minute races help those who are going to nationals? At least there is for me. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by AI#97
You know we need to have a nuclear meltdown before the consensus can happen lol.
I'd vote for 20 4 minute races... :shock:
Funny, I don't remember groupings being up for vote. There are many things in the works for next year, try to think outside of Group 5. These things will reveal themselves in due time.
Well, how about those that attended nationals pick one of the tracks that most resembles Mid Ohio here in this region and for that ONE event prior to september, we have a 40 minute race, say Sunday morning in stead of a 30...but still have the afternoon 30 minute race too?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Bell
Pretty simple and only costs another 10 minutes....if we start eliminating run groups which are on track for 80 minutes per day....this becomes easy and we can actually have down time between races and time for track recoveries....call it a bank of time so we don't end up running in the dark again....however, I am keeping ONE headlight working for now! :wink:
Clifton, I might suggest putting the preliminary plan out on the table now. Better to slowly digest it than have it dumped on us while we spin our wheels....in other words, give us something REAL to argue about!!!! :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Waco Racer
<flag carrier for da South present and account for>Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffburch
For me personally, there were huge issues with some of the group 8 cars. There were times that punting them seemed like the best option, but of course those thoughts were held between the ears and the flying finger <below the window seal>.
We are digging in and keep the #@$@ hill!
Mid Ohio and TWS are similar. just off by .5 miles. only thing missing is the MAJOR elevation change's.
as we are sitting here coming up w/ demands we want from NASA (more track time) we have to be willing to give up something for that "more track time". the combining of groups is something none of us wants but we (some) are willing to take that in trade.
durring my last event, i needed to make up 16 points on Jeff for the Championship. i had to have a really big weekend to pull it off. 2 of the races (sat) had me fighting w/ a GPC Porsche that was already a lap down. he wanted to race me and Jeff both times. do i think it affected the outcome of the Championship? no. in other races i was caught and passed by Mixon and Jay. no big deal. did i affect their race? sure, but i think mine and Jeff's battle was more important. i drove my race and delt w/ what i was given.
point is, everyone on track is having to deal w/ out of class cars in the same ways. just like a ref on the football field, he's just part of the turf, deal w/ it. i think we should be willing to take on more class's in our run group and get 4 30 minute races for @ least the first event just to see how it goes. and for the GPC cars, stop letting them get a split start and that will help w/ them not lapping us. all that does is give them a big head start.
as for how the groups are combined, did i see where the SRT cars (neons right) are not grouped w/ Spec Neon??? why?
Soooo Eric,Quote:
Originally Posted by CMC17
Since you have an issue with Group 8, please let me know how I can improve our group. I think I have earned the right as "King" of group 8. :wink:
For me personally, I don't like to race without group 5. I find myself do hot laps. It is rare that we have enough cars entered in group 8 to even justify having a run group at all.
While were are talking here, I don't like split starts. What is the point. For me all that happens is I catch up to yous guys faster. I would like to grid where we qualify.
I would like to know for the record if group 5 will have our own run group next year.
I personally feel we have grown and done everything we can to deserve our own run group.
What is the plan?
here is a quicky re-org of the run groups. not sure of the total car counts for these groups and that could be the cause for it to not work. feel free to abuse me on this, as long as you offer your suggestions. my changes are underlined.
Group 1 HPDE 1&2
Group 2 HPDE 3&4, Comp students are in this group
Group 5 AI, AIX, AIV,CMC, GPC 1-2 & X; GTS 1-5 and U
Group 6 Spec Miata Challenge, SRX7
Group 7 , BG, PerformanceTouring E-H, , Legends (LP,LM,LS), Allison Legacy (AL), Se7ens 1-5, Spec SRT, Spec Neon, SE-R Cup, Formula Vee
Group 8 ; ASC; PerformanceTouring A-D, R and U; Panoz; HC1-3 & U, Honda Challenge 4-5, , 944 Spec, 944 Cup, Factory Five Racing Challenge (FFR)
Group 9 Time Trial only Session (run this @ lunch - its a 10 minute session)
Group 3 <blank>
Group 4 <blank>
Group 10 <blank>
Glenn,
Actually you have never effected the out come for me and Jaybird. He is actually one class lower than me and he can't beat me anyway. :wink: 8)
That GPC Porsche, he and I had a long talk about his driving. If he returns he'll be in a better state of mind.
I prefere to have traffic to negotiate, makes me better driver.
A well prepared SRT Neon and well driven, would regretably kick your Arse, although it would probalby break down. :lol: